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Stayers Ratings - Betting, Tips & Ratings - Racehorse TALK

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Offline Authorized

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« 2015-Nov-05, 11:34 AM Reply #375 »
Didn't do any ratings yesterday because of all the unexposed form and the way the track played on Saturday.

Wishing I did now.

That winner was "backable" if you left out all the horses with unexposed form. I think there is a lot of hype on these travelling stayers.

Retrospectively, the winner has rated 66 on the back of a 67 rating in the MV Cups past two years.

Horse Best Prior Race Yesterday
Prince Of Penzance 67 2014 MV Cup, 2015 MV Cup 66
Criterion 72 2015 QE2 (Sydney) 69.5
Trip To Paris 67 2015 Caulfield Cup 66
Gust Of Wind 60.5 2015 Caulfield Cup 61.5
Excess Knowledge 66.5 2015 Lexus 61
The Offer 67 2015 Bendigo Cup 63.5
Our Ivanhowe 66.5 2015 Caulfield Cup 65
Who Shot Thebarman 63.5 2014 Melbourne Cup 63.5

What do the post race ratings tell you ?


Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2015-Nov-05, 11:41 AM Reply #376 »
What do the post race ratings tell you ?


That those with exposed form pretty much rated what they were expected to rate. And that Prince Of Penzance wasn't that far off them and 100-1 was good value if you were to ignore the unexposed form.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2015-Nov-05, 11:46 AM Reply #377 »
While I have this thread open and  FWIW, the Oaks today   :biggrin:

No Last 10 Horse Trainer Jockey Barrier Weight Rating
4 2x31131 AMBIENCE John O'Shea James McDonald 10 55.5 63
2 2341x3321 JAMEKA Ciaron Maher Damien Oliver 8 55.5 60
6 035x62314 DAWNIE PERFECT Clarry Conners Jim Cassidy 2 55.5 60
5 8x4211222 HONESTA John P Thompson Craig Williams 12 55.5 59
1 1141x2544 PASADENA GIRL (NZ) Peter G Moody Hugh Bowman 5 55.5 58
11 6105 DULVERTON Robert Smerdon Dwayne Dunn 3 55.5 57.5
3 1221 SACRED EYE David Hayes & Tom Dabernig Ryan Moore 9 55.5 57
8 34x273513 MUZYKA Gerald Ryan Brenton Avdulla 1 55.5 57
10 36x729375 ZARABEEL (NZ) Leon & Troy Corstens Stephen Baster 7 55.5 56
9 4342138 RITZY Anthony Cummings Kerrin McEvoy 6 55.5 55
12 896x57550 PRINCESS ARIA Marc Conners Michael Walker 11 55.5 54.5
7 0x521x0769 THE GREY FLASH Robbie Laing Chris Parnham 4 55.5 54

I'm hoping Dulverton can make up those lengths on the good run we saw at Geelong.

Ambience was brilliant on Saturday. Just wondering if she can reproduce today. Not a fan of the quick backup from that particular stable.

Offline Authorized

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« 2015-Nov-07, 09:24 AM Reply #378 »
That those with exposed form pretty much rated what they were expected to rate. And that Prince Of Penzance wasn't that far off them and 100-1 was good value if you were to ignore the unexposed form.

So what are the ratings of the field after the race ?


Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2015-Nov-07, 10:31 AM Reply #379 »
So what are the ratings of the field after the race ?


Finish No Horse Trainer Jockey Margin Bar. Weight Starting Price Rating Rank
1 19 PRINCE OF PENZANCE Darren Weir Ms Michelle Payne
1 53 $101.00 68 4
2 8 MAX DYNAMITE William Mullins Frankie Dettori 0.5 2 55 $13.00 69.5 2
3 2 CRITERION David Hayes & Tom Dabernig Michael Walker 1.25 4 57.5 $19.00 71.25 1
4 10 TRIP TO PARIS Ed Dunlop Tommy Berry 2 14 55 $6.00 68 4
5 5 BIG ORANGE Michael Bell Jamie Spencer 2.4 23 55.5 $61.00 68.1 3
6 24 GUST OF WIND John Sargent Chad Schofield 2.6 19 51 $41.00 63.4 13
7 23 EXCESS KNOWLEDGE Gai Waterhouse Kerrin McEvoy 3.1 24 51 $31.00 62.9 14
8 13 THE OFFER Gai Waterhouse Damien Oliver 3.3 13 54 $31.00 65.7 8
9 16 QUEST FOR MORE Roger Charlton Damian Lane 3.8 21 53.5 $81.00 64.7 10
10 4 OUR IVANHOWE Lee & Anthony Freedman Ben Melham 3.9 22 56 $21.00 67.1 6
11 11 WHO SHOT THEBARMAN Chris Waller Blake Shinn 4 6 54.5 $21.00 65.5 9
12 21 SERTORIUS Jamie Edwards Craig Newitt 4.75 5 52.5 $101.00 62.75 15
13 3 FAME GAME Yoshitada Munakata Zac Purton 5.5 12 57 $5.00 66.5 7
14 22 THE UNITED STATES Robert Hickmott Joao Moreira 5.7 3 50 $21.00 59.3 19
15 6 HARTNELL John O'Shea James McDonald 5.9 17 55.5 $31.00 64.6 11
16 20 BONDI BEACH Aidan O'Brien Brett Prebble 6.2 18 52.5 $21.00 61.3 16
17 7 HOKKO BRAVE Yasutoshi Matsunaga Craig Williams 6.4 20 55.5 $41.00 64.1 12
18 17 ALMOONQITH David Hayes & Tom Dabernig Dwayne Dunn 6.9 10 52 $17.00 60.1 18
19 18 KINGFISHER Aidan O'Brien Colm O'Donoghue 7 9 53 $61.00 61 17
20 15 PREFERMENT Chris Waller Hugh Bowman 14 11 53.5 $9.00 54.5 21
21 14 GRAND MARSHAL Chris Waller Jim Cassidy 14.75 15 53.5 $61.00 53.75 22
22 12 SKY HUNTER Saeed Bin Suroor William Buick 16 7 54 $31.00 53 23
23 1 SNOW SKY Sir Michael Stoute Ryan Moore 18.25 16 58 $51.00 54.75 20
100 9 RED CADEAUX Ed Dunlop Gerald Mosse 0L 8 55 $26.00 NA

No adjustments made for interference, slow pace, etc.

Ya need anything else Auth from this "Dumb Ace"?   :biggrin:

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2015-Nov-07, 10:45 AM Reply #380 »
Gotta say mate, I'm not a fan of ratings unless you can adjust them as they never show the merit in a run.

I'm not a massive weights and measures fan so no way in gods earth and it be explained, to me that The Offer, Hartnell, Hokko, Big O or Paris ran better than Gust of Wind

Offline Authorized

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« 2015-Nov-07, 10:53 AM Reply #381 »
Gotta say mate, I'm not a fan of ratings unless you can adjust them as they never show the merit in a run.

I'm not a massive weights and measures fan so no way in gods earth and it be explained, to me that The Offer, Hartnell, Hokko, Big O or Paris ran better than Gust of Wind

What on earth does that mean ?

Put the time and effort into calculating the ground and momentum these horses lost.

Hokko Brave was just as unlucky if not more as Gust Of Wind. He carried 4.5 kgs more ( minus the sex allowance ) and she beat him 4 lengths.


Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2015-Nov-07, 11:02 AM Reply #382 »
Gotta say mate, I'm not a fan of ratings unless you can adjust them as they never show the merit in a run.

I'm not a massive weights and measures fan so no way in gods earth and it be explained, to me that The Offer, Hartnell, Hokko, Big O or Paris ran better than Gust of Wind

When assessing the ratings for an upcoming race, I take the best past rating and look for a reason the horse won't achieve that.

Gust Of Wind's rating is low because it only carried 51 kg. You could add a length or two for interference when recording the ratings for that race, but it is only a guess, and ultimately with a set of ratings from it's history the best one will come through. No point wasting your time IMO.

Especially the case with stayers. You are looking for it's peak past performance. Any unlucky run will be cancelled out by other performances where it wasn't unlucky.

We will have to disagree on weights and measures. I think they are the most interesting part of form assessment.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2015-Nov-07, 12:38 PM Reply #383 »

We will have to disagree on weights and measures. I think they are the most interesting part of form assessment.


I agree they are to a point but I really find it hard to believe that GOW would run any slower if she carried 52kg instead  $51kg. She's over 500kg herself.
Most ratings would have her running 1 length slower, I can't cop that

Offline Wenona

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« 2015-Nov-08, 03:07 PM Reply #384 »
When they weigh Formula 1 cars to ensure they don't sneak a kilo of weight out of the car I can live with the physics of a horse being advantaged by carrying a kilo less in the Cup.


Offline The Carnegie Express

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« 2015-Nov-08, 09:07 PM Reply #385 »

I agree they are to a point but I really find it hard to believe that GOW would run any slower if she carried 52kg instead  $51kg. She's over 500kg herself.
Most ratings would have her running 1 length slower, I can't cop that
[/quote

So true. Carrying top weight a different story.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2016-Apr-07, 08:55 AM Reply #386 »
Race 7 - 3:15PM SCHWEPPES SYDNEY CUP (3200 METRES)

Of $2,000,000.1st $1,200,000, 2nd $375,000, 3rd $175,000, 4th $87,500, 5th $50,000, 6th $37,500, 7th $37,500, 8th $37,500 GROUP 1
Handicap, Minimum Weight 50kg, Three-Years-Old and Upwards, Weight Raised 1kg, Apprentices cannot claim.

Field Limit: 16 + 4 EM


The four highlighted are the ones I see as value. Libran is rated on top but there is no value in the current price IMO

No Last 10 Horse Best Best Rate Adj Wgt Adj Net Points Perc Chance Value (25%) Prepost
1 58701x9032 WHO SHOT THEBARMAN (NZ) 2015 Sydney Cup 68.5
-6 62.5 5 12.20% $10.25 $3.50
2 067101x906 ALMOONQITH (USA) 2015 Sandown Cup 68
-4.5 63.5 7 17.07% $7.32 $9.50
3 75003x0853 GRAND MARSHAL (GB) 2015 Sydney Cup 66
-4 62 4 9.76% $12.81 $4.20
4 x1x6x34111 LIBRAN (IRE) 2016 Chaimans Hcp 69 -2 -2 65 10 24.39% $5.13 $3.50
5 150311x474 AUVRAY (FR) 2016 Randwick Stks LR 62.5
-2 60.5 1 2.44% $51.25 $26.00
6 5x69x31145 DESTINY’S KISS 2016 Aust Day Cup 68 -5 -1.5 61.5 3 7.32% $17.08 $21.00
7 x0x0069x03 GALLANTE (IRE) 2016 Manion Cup 63.5
-0.5 63 6 14.63% $8.54 $11.00
8 8x900x7723 CAFE SOCIETY (FR) 2016 Chaimans Hcp 64.5 -2
62.5 5 12.20% $10.25 $11.00
9 000544x978 LIKE A CAROUSEL 2015 Sandown Cup 60

60
0.00%

10 211246x326 DEE I CEE (NZ) 2016 BM85 61.5 -2
59.5
0.00%

11 151042x451 BAYANOVA (NZ) 2016 BM84 59 -2
57
0.00%








TOTAL 41 100.00%

« Last Edit: 2016-Apr-07, 08:58 AM by PoisonPen7 »

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2017-Apr-07, 09:17 PM Reply #387 »
Race 8 - 3:55PM SCHWEPPES SYDNEY CUP (3200 METRES)

Of $2,000,000.1st $1,170,000, 2nd $380,000, 3rd $200,000, 4th $90,000, 5th $50,000, 6th $20,000, 7th $20,000, 8th $20,000, 9th $15,000, 10th $15,000, Equine Welfare Fund $20,000. GROUP 1

Handicap, Minimum Weight 50.5kg, Three-Years-Old and Upwards, Weight Raised 1.5kg, Apprentices cannot claim.

Track Type: Turf

Field Limit: 20 + 4 EM


No Horse Barrier Weight Best Rating Race Wgt Adj Other Adj Reason Net Rating Dist To Winner
10 PENGLAI PAVILION (USA) 6 52 72 via Almandin, Hearbreak City -0.5

71.5 0
7 BIG DUKE (IRE) 5 52 67.5 2017 Chairmans Hcp -0.5

67 4.5
9 MISTER IMPATIENCE (GB) 2 52 65.5 2016 Wellington Cup -0.5

65 6.5
11 KINEMA (IRE) 7 52 67.5 2016 Flemington BM96 -0.5 -2 class 65 6.5
14 POLARISATION (GB) 11 51.5 63 Estimate 0

65 6.5
4 TALLY 8 55 68 2017 Mornington Cup -3.5

64.5 7
5 ASSIGN (IRE) 9 53.5 65 2016 Herbert Power -2

63 8.5
12 PENTATHLON (NZ) 10 51.5 63 2016 Wellington Cup 0

63 8.5
13 VENGEUR MASQUE (IRE) 14 51.5 63 2017 Mornington Cup 0

63 8.5
8 ANNUS MIRABILIS (IRE) 1 52 63 2017 Adelaide Cup -0.5

62.5 9
1 WHO SHOT THEBARMAN (NZ) 4 57 67 2016 Sydney Cup -5.5

61.5 10
2 LIBRAN (IRE) 13 56.5 66.5 2016 Sydney Cup -5

61.5 10
6 CHANCE TO DANCE (IRE) 12 53 63 2017 Adelaide Cup -1.5

61.5 10
3 ALMOONQITH (USA) 3 56 65.5 2016 Melbourne Cup -4.5

61 10.5

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2017-Nov-06, 02:27 AM Reply #388 »
Well we did OK in the Sydney Cup, let's try our luck in the Melbourne Cup.

No Horse Barrier Weight Best Rating Race 3200 m Record Longest Win Adj Reason Gross Rate Net Rate
1 HARTNELL (GB) 12 57.5 70.5 2016 Melbourne Cup 4:1-0-1 3219

70.5 63
2 ALMANDIN (GER) 14 56.5 71 2016 Melbourne Cup 1:1-0-0 3200

71 64.5
3 HUMIDOR (NZ) 13 56 69.5 2017 Caulfield Cup 0:0-0-0 2000 -1 ? Distance 68.5 62.5
4 TIBERIAN (FR) 23 55.5 65 Estimate 0:0-0-0 3000

65 59.5
5 MARMELO (GB) 16 55 69 2017 Caulfield Cup 0:0-0-0 3000 2 Caulfield Cup run 71 66
6 RED CARDINAL (IRE) 24 55 65 via Marmelo 2:2-0-0 3219 1.5 Distance 66.5 61.5
7 JOHANNES VERMEER (IRE) 3 54.5 69 2017 Caulfield Cup 0:0-0-0 2011 -1 ? Distance 68 63.5
8 BONDI BEACH (IRE) 1 54 60 2016 Melbourne Cup 2:0-0-0 2816

60 56
9 MAX DYNAMITE (FR) 2 54 69.5 2015 Melbourne Cup 9:1-4-0 3419 -2.5 Recent form 67 63
10 VENTURA STORM (IRE) 6 54 63.5 2017 Caulfield Cup 0:0-0-0 2500 -1 ? Distance 62.5 58.5
11 WHO SHOT THEBARMAN (NZ) 20 54kg

8:1-2-1 3200



12 WICKLOW BRAVE (GB) 8 54 64.5 2017 Caulfield Cup 19:7-1-2 3420 1 Distance 65.5 61.5
13 BIG DUKE (IRE) 5 53.5 65 2017 MV Cup 1:0-0-1 2600 2 MV Cup run 67 63.5
14 US ARMY RANGER (IRE) 22 53.5 63 2017 Alexandra 1:0-0-0 2474

63 59.5
15 BOOM TIME 9 53 68 2017 Caulfield Cup 1:0-0-0 2500 -1 ? Distance 67 64
16 GALLANTE (IRE) 18 53 66 2016 Sydney Cup 2:1-0-0 3200 -2.5 Recent form 63.5 60.5
17 LIBRAN (IRE) 7 53 66.5 2017 MV Cup 2:0-1-0 2600

66.5 63.5
18 NAKEETA (GB) 19 53 65 Estimate 1:0-1-0  2816

65 62
19 SINGLE GAZE 11 53 68 2017 Caulfield Cup 0:0-0-0  2200 -1 ? Distance 67 64
20 WALL OF FIRE (IRE) 15 53 69 2017 Herbert Power 2:0-0-0 2920 -0.5 ? Distance 68.5 65.5
21 THOMAS HOBSON (GB) 21 52 65.5 2017 Alexandra 5:2-1-0 4014 1 Distance 66.5 64.5
22 REKINDLING (GB) 4 51.5 63.5 via Order Of St George 0:0-0-0 2816

63.5 62
23 AMELIE’S STAR 10 51 64.5 2017 Bart Cummings 0:0-0-0 2500 -1 ? Distance 63.5 62.5
24 CISMONTANE (NZ) 17 50 64.5 2017 MV Cup 0:0-0-0 2500 -1 ? Distance 63.5 63.5

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2017-Nov-06, 02:52 AM Reply #389 »
Sorted in predicted finishing order and the current price.

No Horse Barrier Weight Best Rating Race 3200 m Record Longest Win Adj Reason Gross Rate Net Rate Price
5 MARMELO (GB) 16 55 69 2017 Caulfield Cup 0:0-0-0 3000 2 Caulfield Cup run 71 66 $8.50
20 WALL OF FIRE (IRE) 15 53 69 2017 Herbert Power 2:0-0-0 2920 -0.5 ? Distance 68.5 65.5 $13.00
2 ALMANDIN (GER) 14 56.5 71 2016 Melbourne Cup 1:1-0-0 3200

71 64.5 $9.00
21 THOMAS HOBSON (GB) 21 52 65.5 2017 Alexandra 5:2-1-0 4014 1 Distance 66.5 64.5 $16.00
15 BOOM TIME 9 53 68 2017 Caulfield Cup 1:0-0-0 2500 -1 ? Distance 67 64 $26.00
19 SINGLE GAZE 11 53 68 2017 Caulfield Cup 0:0-0-0  2200 -1 ? Distance 67 64 $41.00
7 JOHANNES VERMEER (IRE) 3 54.5 69 2017 Caulfield Cup 0:0-0-0 2011 -1 ? Distance 68 63.5 $10.00
13 BIG DUKE (IRE) 5 53.5 65 2017 MV Cup 1:0-0-1 2600 2 MV Cup run 67 63.5 $19.00
17 LIBRAN (IRE) 7 53 66.5 2017 MV Cup 2:0-1-0 2600

66.5 63.5 $41.00
24 CISMONTANE (NZ) 17 50 64.5 2017 MV Cup 0:0-0-0 2500 -1 ? Distance 63.5 63.5 $51.00
1 HARTNELL (GB) 12 57.5 70.5 2016 Melbourne Cup 4:1-0-1 3219

70.5 63 $26.00
9 MAX DYNAMITE (FR) 2 54 69.5 2015 Melbourne Cup 9:1-4-0 3419 -2.5 Recent form 67 63 $15.00
3 HUMIDOR (NZ) 13 56 69.5 2017 Caulfield Cup 0:0-0-0 2000 -1 ? Distance 68.5 62.5 $10.00
23 AMELIE’S STAR 10 51 64.5 2017 Bart Cummings 0:0-0-0 2500 -1 ? Distance 63.5 62.5 $17.00
18 NAKEETA (GB) 19 53 65 Estimate 1:0-1-0  2816

65 62 $34.00
22 REKINDLING (GB) 4 51.5 63.5 via Order Of St George 0:0-0-0 2816

63.5 62 $12.00
6 RED CARDINAL (IRE) 24 55 65 via Marmelo 2:2-0-0 3219 1.5 Distance 66.5 61.5 $19.00
12 WICKLOW BRAVE (GB) 8 54 64.5 2017 Caulfield Cup 19:7-1-2 3420 1 Distance 65.5 61.5 $51.00
16 GALLANTE (IRE) 18 53 66 2016 Sydney Cup 2:1-0-0 3200 -2.5 Recent form 63.5 60.5 $101.00
4 TIBERIAN (FR) 23 55.5 65 Estimate 0:0-0-0 3000

65 59.5 $26.00
14 US ARMY RANGER (IRE) 22 53.5 63 2017 Alexandra 1:0-0-0 2474

63 59.5 $61.00
10 VENTURA STORM (IRE) 6 54 63.5 2017 Caulfield Cup 0:0-0-0 2500 -1 ? Distance 62.5 58.5 $34.00
8 BONDI BEACH (IRE) 1 54 60 2016 Melbourne Cup 2:0-0-0 2816

60 56 $61.00

Generally agreeing with the price assessors.  Must be some doubt about Humidor getting the 3200m backed up by the fact he appears to be giving weight to some good stayers - might be a good lay at the $10.

#5 Marmelo was a great run in the Caulfield Cup, and only 11 starts for 3 wins and 5 placings (72% place strike rate).  Has won over 3000m twice and twice placed over that distance. Will need a little bit of luck from the barrier but has arguably the best jockey in the world on him. Worth an each way bet at the $8.50 IMO.

#20 Wall Of Fire rates highly because he drops 5 kg on his Herbert Power placing. Has some good distance form and was thought of highly enough to travel to Dubai earlier this year. Williams is a big race jockey. However he was beaten 6.3 by Red Cardinal over the distance in receipt of 3 kg. It wouldn't surprise if #6 Red Cardinal achieves a higher rating than the 65 kg I've given him - it is a bit hard to rate the OS races.

#2 Almandin picks himself. Must be considered a chance by any measure.

Gai's horse #24 Cisamontane might be worth inclusion in multiples at the $51 - by High Chaparral out of a sister to some good stayers (Wellington Cup, Summer Cup winners among 4 stakes winners with 13 stakes wins there).  Has stuck well last two starts (looked gone in the MV Cup and fought back to place) and looks a 3200m horse if ever there was one. Might have to be used up from the gate though.




Offline wily ole dog

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« 2017-Nov-06, 07:08 AM Reply #390 »
PP, welcome back. :beer:

You may need to adjust Tiberian after yesterdays Breeders Cup result

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2017-Nov-06, 07:18 AM Reply #391 »
PP, welcome back. :beer:

You may need to adjust Tiberian after yesterdays Breeders Cup result

You will have to explain that one to me mate.

I thought Tiberian was a bit harshly treated at the weights given he has not won a Group 1 race whereas horses like Gallante and Wicklow Brave have. 

In fact the handicapping seems very strange in certain parts.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2017-Nov-06, 10:55 AM Reply #392 »
2 starts in a row Tiberian beat a good horse called talismanic.
Yestetday talismanic won the Breeders Cup Turf flogging the well performed Highland Reel, Beach Patrol and Decorated Knight.

I suspect that form stacks up bloody well compared to what most of tbe internationals have to offer :chin:

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2017-Nov-06, 10:53 PM Reply #393 »
2 starts in a row Tiberian beat a good horse called talismanic.
Yestetday talismanic won the Breeders Cup Turf flogging the well performed Highland Reel, Beach Patrol and Decorated Knight.

I suspect that form stacks up bloody well compared to what most of tbe internationals have to offer :chin:

Have been able to map Tiberian to Marmelo via Talismanic - Tiberian finishes 2 kg in front.

After having watched the international race replays, and assuming that one of these horses wins, this is the predicted finishing order of the internationals that I can get a handle on.

Number Horse Rate Weight Net Odds
21 Thomas Hobson 75 52 73 $20.00
4 Tiberian 74.5 55.5 69 $26.00
14 US Army Ranger 71.5 53.5 68 $61.00
5 Marmelo 71 55 66 $8.00
6 Red Cardinal 69.5 55 64.5 $18.00
7 Johanne's Vemeer 69 54.5 64.5 $9.50
12 Wicklow Brave 68 54 64 $61.00
22 Rekindling 62.5 51.5 61 $14.00
20 Wall Of Fire 60.5 53 57.5 $12.00

Some good value at the top there but of course there are negatives.

Thomas Hobson has barrier 21 and is to be ridden by a jockey who I consider is at his best in shorter course races.

Tiberian has drawn barrier 23 and I must admit don't know much about the jockey.

US Army Ranger has drawn 22. FFS. Can you believe that? The 3 I'm looking at have drawn hopelessly.  :no:

Wicklow Brave at $61 is the other one worth a bob each way. Didn't think his run was that bad in the CC and he was in the stewards reports twice for the wrong reasons. He has drawn well in barrier 8 and Stephen Baster has won 12 Group 1s but not a Melbourne Cup so it is a good mount for him.

Might have a play around with those 4 + Marmelo, Red Cardinal and Johannes Vemeer into exotics.


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