Bubbasmith
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 Original Post 2010-Oct-15, 09:11 PM
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I have posted this discussion on the Racing Talk Australia banner although it relates to Tabcorp's declaration on Supertab on race one this evening on Singapore race one won by Rocket Man as I believe the thread would get lost posting under International Racing banner.
Supertab co-mingles its pools with the Singapore tote, however on its website Tabcorp has the following rider...
Key points where the Singapore betting rules differ from the SuperTAB betting rules are as follows:
* Dividends are rounded down to the nearest 20c.
* For the Win pool:
o Minimum dividend is $1.20
o Minimum starters is 4
Prior to the running of the race the Supertab not only displayed the approximate win dividend of $1.20 for Rocket Man but showed the pool was co-mingled.Rocket Man paid $1.20 on the Singapore, the guaranteed win dividend, however Supertab declared a win dividend of $1.04. I rang customer service to seek an explanation why the dividend on Supertab was not declared as $1.20 but was told that the Singapore tote, for "technical reasons", had withdrawn the Supertab investments from their co-mingled pool.I was then told all other up-coming races will be co-mingled.
Praiseworthy, I would be pleased to know why Singapore would want to exclude Supertab investments on this particular race where Tabcorp are winners at the expense of punters who backed the winner ?
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Peter Mair
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2010-Oct-17, 06:48 AM
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BET MORE TO WIN MORE / BIGGER POOLS MEANS BIGGER DIVIDENDS
Yesterday in a promotional ploy, some commentator reminded punters that 'the more you bet the more you win' --- and I have previously taken Tabcorp to task for the 'mistake' on 2KSKY of linking bigger co-mingled pools on VICTAB's Singapore racing with bigger dividends, the opposite is the case.
The following extract seems to go close to the same mistakes.
First it 'blames' a lower (but still excessive) takeout on the NSW TAB for the lower VIC TAB dividends -- Tabcorp should not co-mingle into pools that cost punters more.
Second a 33% difference over a full program is not slight even for small punters -- and serious punters would be well advised to get a better price somewhere else.
Yes the takeout is higher - because local rules apply when you pool. I am bemused .... the fact that australia is the 2nd lowest parimutuel take out in the world is usually disregarded by folks like him.
The liquidity due to pooling with singapore is 50 to 60 times greater but the takeout is slightly higher. So for a $5 punter pete may be right, but for a serious punter I suspect you'd take certainty offered through the liquidity.
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praiseworthy
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2010-Oct-17, 09:02 AM
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pete you don't understand wagering well enough to make claims like that.
any suggestions on where the 'serious punter' would have got set for the $1.20 on rocket man?
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Peter Mair
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2010-Oct-17, 10:49 AM
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ONE PROBLEM IS THE DEAL WITH SINGAPORE, ANOTHER WAS SOMEONE TRYING TO FIX IT 'ON THE RUN'
With a $5 minimum bet in Singapore the 'guaranteed' $1.20 minimum dividend is the equivalent of the $1.04 convention in Australia.
Presumably someone in Singapore or Victoria, or both, realised that VIC TAB was going to lose on the race so the VIC TAB pool was not mingled.
One can be sure that if this were to happen regularly the terms of the mingling deal would be changed.
...............only after a 'protest' was lodged did VIC TAB do what it should have done from the outset -- and paid the $1.20.
For the future, if the VIC TAB money does not 'get on' in Singapore, for whatever reason, the rule should be that VIC TAB still pays the dividend declared in Singapore.
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praiseworthy
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2010-Oct-17, 01:41 PM
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anti tab - when I got the info I did suggest that there may be some 'conspiracy theories' around the issue - I was guaranteed that the set of events that occurred are what happened, and I thus believe it.
The $1.20 rule is well known - we even promoted the fact when pooling commenced - below is from the press release that highlighted the changes in rules;
Minimum dividends:
For STC hosted pools, the minimum Win dividend is $1.20 and the minimum Place dividend is $1.00. (Under VICTAB rules, the minimum dividend on both Win and Place pools is generally $1.04)
Singapore removed us from the pool not the other way round - thus the final of tab investments of $61,000 was being correctly displayed.
ps - its about 60,000 races a year we bet on - i know at times it seems like 2 trillion, but it is a little less than that!
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Antitab#
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2010-Oct-17, 03:38 PM
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The link to Singapore was there 5 minutes after the race with 7 million in the pool and the pool and magically rejoined for co mingling of every other race that night. If your fairy story is true why wouldnt they declare a dividend of $1.20 as they new that was the minimum div payable? Secondly wht hasnt that dividend been amended now or are you hoping the majority of punters arent smart enough to know the rules and can be unknowingly cheated?
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sobig
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2010-Oct-17, 04:00 PM
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For your info antitab the final Singapore pool was over $15m (app $A12m)
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praiseworthy
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2010-Oct-17, 04:06 PM
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anti tab - could it be that if you've backed it with a corproate at tote+5%and they are paying you only $1.04 +5%?
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Bubbasmith
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2010-Oct-17, 06:22 PM
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PW Whether Antitab backed it or not with the corporates, is irrelevant, the dividend still has not been amended ( Sunday 7.00 pm EDST= nearly two days after the race ). Regardless, Tabcorp's Race Day Department knew that a minimum win dividend of $1.20 is applicable to any co- mingled Singapore pool and should have declared that minimum dividend. As Tabcorp has gone along with Singapore's higher takeout rate with the PR spin of more stable dividends with the larger pool they are stuck with that minimum dividend.I am betting they never thought that they would get caught out with that anomaly.  I cannot wait until Rocket Man goes around in another small field at 20's on. |
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« Last Edit: 2010-Oct-17, 07:55 PM by Bubbasmith »
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Peter Mair
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2010-Oct-17, 07:00 PM
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THIS MATTER HAS BEEN REFERRED TO THE OFFICE OF THE VICTORIAN COMMISSIONER FOR RACING INTEGRITY
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praiseworthy
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2010-Oct-17, 07:13 PM
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bubba - oh we knew alright.
I think technically - but will check - that the correct dividend ($1.04) has been posted - as we did not co-mingle on that race once singapore didn't take the vic tab investments. Thus local rules and not singapore rules apply when this occurs. I suspect that plain and simple, they are the rules.
I find the irony that because of this we've given some corproates a leg up!
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Bubbasmith
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2010-Oct-17, 07:49 PM
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PW
Tabcorp's approach to paying this minimum dividend is akin to the old saying " heads I win,tails you lose ".If the pool is co-mingled they will go along with the higher deduction rate providing they do not have to pay the minimum dividend ( $ 1.20 ) then if that situation arises, they will opt out of the pool and revert to their own rules for minimum dividends ( $ 1.04 ).
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Bubbasmith
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2010-Oct-17, 08:25 PM
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PW
On looking at the webpage for the race in question can you please explain how the place pool shows $1,791 was invested when no place dividends were declared. In Singapore they paid out place dividends for 1st & 2nd
Might I assume, when our pool was co mingled, before Tabcorp line to Singapore dropped out, punters would have been able to place bet, and invested $1,791, but once Tabcorp 'opted out' those bets were refunded.Having a look at those place dividends the market percentage was 125.95 % to pay 1st & 2nd, should not that percentage be 246%. With 19% , Singapore takeout rate , to pay two placings = 200%
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« Last Edit: 2010-Oct-17, 08:55 PM by Bubbasmith »
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praiseworthy
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2010-Oct-17, 08:34 PM
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bubba - will need to check tomorrow- but yes would suggest that the place investment was made on a migled pool and the refunded after tabcorp was taken out of the pool.
the place approximates do look strange - will need to find out what the mathematics of those was.
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Bubbasmith
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2010-Oct-17, 08:49 PM
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PW You are going to have a busy day tomorrow |
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