Racehorse TALK

Bump

Sorry mate I don't have any info for Prince Darius above and beyond what you have i.e. Stakes race wins.

Nothing I can see on the internet.

Saw this great newspaper clip from 1958 - a great shot of Lord beating Prince Darius by a nose in the Caulfield Stks.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1300&dat=19581017&id=3gFQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=M5UDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5130,2601904

Some interesting reading on this page, especially the cricket.

Scroll to the right and check out the ad for "Portable Transistor Radios". Cost is 25 guineas. A 4 pound deposit and you pay it off at 10 shillings per week 

In today's terms, using avereage weekly wages as the basis, I make that about $2500.

Thought Wenona Girl might have been in here.

I see Tony Arrold in the Australian has bought up the old chestnut of number of stakes wins and group 1 wins of old time horses. He is arguing that Wenona Girl is the leading female group 1 winner with 15. He provides a list of those races.

There are quite a few that should be debatable.

These are the races Tony Arrold suggest should be group 1 from her era.

I have highlighted the ones I believe are questionable.

VRC Sire Produce Stakes
AJC Sires Produce Stakes
STC Rosehill Guineas
AJC Flight Stakes
VATC Thousand Guineas
STC Rawson Stakes
AJC Oaks (Adrian Knox)
MRC C.F. Orr Stakes
VRC Lightning Stakes
VATC Futurity Stakes
AJC George Main Stakes
VRC George Adams
VRC Lightning Stakes
STC Rawson Stakes
AJC All Aged Stakes


When black type racing went to group racing The Flight Stakes, Orr Stakes and Lightning Stakes were credited with group 2 status. The Rawson Stakes that Wenona Girl won was a 1600m contest. It can hardly be considered the same race that was credited with group 1 status in 1979 when the change over occurred.


Sunline 13
Black Caviar 11
Wenona Girl 10

What these dinosaurs forget is that horses have to better nowadays than they were then.
Not only because the average horse is better now, but because they have to do it without the caffeine, the arsenic and the tubing on raceday.

Any goose can come on here and denigrate the records of our past champions, and simply dismiss their great performances as "drug-enhanced", without having to provide one shred of evidence.

Geez the anonymity of the internet throws up some real class acts 

The fact of the matter is that horses in the past suffered a lot more from their injuries.

Contemporary anti-inflammatories were not available for use whilst recovering from injuries.

Diagnostic procedures like X-Rays for horses were not available. Thus the diagnosis of injuries were not as accurate, and injuries either went untreated, or were treated haphazardly. Christ they even have MRI's for horses these days.

There were no anti-biotics to treat infection for horses.

Certainly there were none of the modern day scopes, that have reduced the trauma associated with surgery.

Putting this all together, if Phar Lap had available to him all the modern advanced medical treatments that today's horses have, he might have survived his illness and continued to race.

To say that modern racehorses do it tougher than their ancestors is about as stupid as saying humans do it tougher these days than our forebears.

All of the above is the fictionalised account of a deteriorating mind. Please do your own research.

For one scoping was being performed at least 30 years ago. Tubing on race day was a normal occurence.
Drug testing was at best periodic and ineffective.

I think the Rawson was always a much stronger race in days gone past - more truly a Group 1 race then than now.  What has to remembered is that racing has changed over time, certainly St Legers at Randwick and Flemington would have been Group 1's in a bygone era, the Craven Plate was once a highlight of the Sydney Spring etc.

How many races a mile and under were Group 1 rate when the change occurred and how many are Group 1 now?

A question for the forum or folks with appreciation for racing history.

If you could pay to get record of most of the great horses from years past - say pre 2000 - would you pay for it?

Eg racingandsports style database search

Runner-up in the Orr was
Havelock
Winner of
1963 MRC Easter Cup
1963 VATC Underwood Stakes
1963 VRC Craiglee Stakes
1964 VATC CF Orr Stakes
1964 VRC Queen's Plate

3rd was
New Statesman
Winner of
1961 MVRC Moonee Valley Stakes
1961 VRC Victoria Derby
1962 AJC George Main Stakes
1962 MRC Williamstown Cup
1962 MVRC William Reid Stakes
1962 VATC Oakleigh Plate

Lightning
Runner-up was
Proud Miss

Winner of
1961 VATC Debutante Stakes
1962 SAJC Sires' Produce Stakes
1962 VATC Merson Cooper Stakes

3rd was
Sky High
Winner of
1959 AJC Breeders' Plate
1960 AJC Champagne Stakes
1960 STC Golden Slipper Stakes
1960 VRC Victoria Derby
1961 AJC All-Aged Stakes
1961 AJC Daily Telegraph Stakes
1961 AJC Epsom Handicap
1961 AJC Warwick Stakes
1961 STC Canterbury Stakes
1961 VATC Caulfield Stakes
1961 VATC Futurity Stakes
1961 VRC C.M. Lloyd Stakes
1961 VRC L.K.S Mackinnon Stakes
1961 VRC Lightning Stakes
1962 AJC Chipping Norton Stakes
1962 AJC Daily & Sunday Telegraph Stakes
1962 AJC Warwick Stakes
1962 STC Canterbury Stakes
1962 STC Hill Stakes
1962 STC Rawson Stakes
1962 VATC Caulfield Stakes
1962 VRC C.M. Lloyd Stakes
1962 VRC Lightning Stakes
1962 VRC Linlithgow Stakes
1963 AJC Autumn Stakes
1963 STC Rawson Stakes


Lightning
Runner-up was
Ripa
Winner of
1963 VATC Sandown Guineas
1963 VRC Craven 'A' Stakes
1964 VATC Invitation Stakes
1965 VATC Toorak Handicap
1965 VRC C.M. Lloyd Stakes
1965 VRC Newmarket Handicap


I'll leave it to others to post the wins of, say, Sistene Angel and Power Princess.

The only thing fictitious around here is your claims to expertise at anything.

Let's see. 

Tubing, scoping, arthroscopes, gastroscopes...not any difference there at all, is there? All the same thing really.

Let's take that rubber tubing out of that cow's naso-pharynx over there and re-use it to examine this horse's joints over here. Never mind there isn't any fibre-optics so we can see. And after we're finished, how about we use it as a colonoscope. And I know a good candidate I'd like to to use it on.

I wonder if the Lightning's place is any greater now than it was in the 1960's or when the new system came in or if we just have more Group 1 tickets to hand out now.

Not sure about the 60's, but some real superstars won the race in the 70's:

1979 The Judge (AUS) 1975 Principal race 1000m
1978 Maybe Mahal (AUS) 1972 Principal race 1000m
1977 Maybe Mahal (AUS) 1972 Principal race 1000m
1976 Desirable (AUS) 1973 Principal race 1000m
1975 Cap D'Antibes (AUS) 1971 Principal race 1000m
1974 Century (AUS) 1969 Principal race 1000m
1973 Make Mine Roses (AUS) 1969 Principal race 1000m
1972 Zambari (NZ) 1967 Principal race 5F
1971 Dual Choice (AUS) 1967 Principal race 5F
1970 Black Onyx (AUS) 1965 Principal race 5F

and winners from 1984 to 1989 were pretty good as well

1989 Zeditave (AUS) 1985 Group 1 1000m
1988 Special (AUS) 1983 Group 1 1000m
1987 Placid Ark (AUS) 1983 Group 1 1000m
1986 Hula Chief (NZ) 1982 Group 2 1000m
1985 River Rough (NZ) 1979 Group 2 1000m
1984 River Rough (NZ) 1979 Group 2 1000m
1983 Demus (AUS) 1977 Group 2 1000m
1982 He's A Haze (AUS) 1977 Group 2 1000m
1981 Countess Marizza (AUS) 1974 Group 2 1000m
1980 Sportscast (AUS) 1976 Group 2 1000m

This is a very worthy Group 1 race - was back then and still is now.

Agree with Manikato about the Rawson Stakes. Has always been one of the majors. Was won by these champs:

Ajax
Artilleryman
Balmerino
Bernborough
Carioca
Chatham
Flight
Gunsynd
Limerick
Peter
Poseidon
Sky High
Skyline
Tulloch

YES.