TOTE Tasmania / Tatts - #1 Horse Racing Forum in Australia for Race-Horse News

Bubbasmith

Group 2
user 197

Offline
Posts: 2296

Original Post 2011-Oct-19, 02:49 PM

From this morning's Herald Sun newspaper....

Tatts' Interest In Tote Tassie

GAMING giant Tatts has expressed an interest in taking over betting agency TOTE Tasmania, after the Tasmanian Government confirmed it is back on the market.
Tatts, which owns Queensland's off-course betting agency Unitab, is one of several industry players that could benefit by using TOTE to take advantage of a punting market wider than Tasmania.
Analysts said the most likely parties interested would be Tatts, Tabcorp or offshore bookmakers including Ladbrokes.
The Tasmanian Government has confirmed the cash-strapped island state is open to offers. Tabcorp, which holds the off-course licence in Victoria and NSW, had no comment.
The government last attempted to sell TOTE in 2009 but the process crashed when no bidder would meet its asking price, believed to be between $200 million and $250 million. Merrill Lynch at the time expected a sale price of $103 million.
Since then, TOTE has expanded by attracting big off-shore punters with offers that interstate totes can't match due to the generous tax concessions of the Tasmanian Government.
"They are providing premium punters with great deals, which a lot of people think would be untenable without the help of the government," one analyst said.
He said that if Tatts did acquire TOTE, it might be a cheaper vehicle than its Unitab operation to set up betting shopfronts in competition with Tabcorp in Victoria.
Tatts is fighting a legal battle for approval to open shops in Victoria.
Tatts spokesman Michael Mangos said yesterday: "We had a look at Tote Tasmania before and we would do so again. But it would have to be a commercially sensible arrangement for us to participate."
Betfair Australia gives punters an online TOTE option, but the Hobart-based internet gambling agency's chief Andrew Twaits said it had not considered buying in.
Industry sources said TOTE shares the betting pool of Tabcorp's SuperTAB and without that arrangement it would not have the liquidity to attract a significant proportion of the gambling dollar.

Maybe TOTE Tasmania considers mainland Australia " off-shore" or maybe ZR & DW place their bets when they are in a dinghy sitting in the Derwent River, otherwise how can they be "off- shore " punters


« Last Edit: 2011-Oct-19, 03:01 PM by Bubbasmith »	Logged

jfc

Group 2
user 723
Online

Online
Alias: jfc
Posts: 1342

2011-Oct-20, 05:27 AM

Tote Tasmania's Supertab membership is due to expire soon.

If for once sanity prevails, it will then be kicked out.

But now we have a new moron on the scene - Barrie Fletton of Tatts Group.

This turkey seems to be planning to tango with Tote Tasmania. Simply merging pools would do the trick, but he'd probably prefer to blow hundreds of millions on an acquisition.

Whereupon Zeljko will simply transfer his existing Tatts Group annual turnover of ~$400 million to Tasmania.

Resulting in zero turnover increase.

And a revenue decrease akin to the $63 million stolen from non-Tasmanian Supertab punters.

In fact if the move gains Zeljko 2.5%, $10 million annually will disappear from the TTS bottom line.


« Last Edit: 2011-Oct-20, 11:16 AM by jfc »	Logged

jfc

Group 2
user 723
Online

Online
Alias: jfc
Posts: 1342

2011-Oct-27, 10:42 AM

http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2011/10/27/271931_tasmania-news.html

"Greens leader Nick McKim told Parliament that Treasury secretary Martin Wallace had yesterday given the Greens important information about TOTE that was not publicly known."

If ever Totes Tasmania's Annual Report surfaces, I imagine there will be some interesting information there about how much their Sports Betting has sunk, now those leeches have thankfully been barred from Tabcorp.


	Logged

jfc

Group 2
user 723
Online

Online
Alias: jfc
Posts: 1342

2011-Oct-27, 03:33 PM

http://www.media.tas.gov.au/release.php?id=33477

Music to my ears.

So many kickbacks that profits missed out.

I suppose the Tasmanian Tugger didn't forget to get his snout in the bonus trough.

---------

Fall in Profit Highlights Pressure on TOTE Tasmania

The Deputy Premier Bryan Green said today a sharp fall in TOTE Tasmania’s net profit highlighted the significant pressure on the company and the major risks of continued Government ownership.

Mr Green said the challenges facing TOTE in the highly competitive Australian wagering industry were demonstrated in its annual report tabled in Parliament.

TOTE revealed an underlying net profit before tax of $1.5 million in 2010-11 down from $10.1 million the year before.

“Private sector wagering operators are better placed to manage the risks facing TOTE and its competitive pressures,” Mr Green said.

“Private sector operators have better access to growth capital, economies of scale and, importantly, have a higher risk appetite than the Government.

Mr Green said owning a wagering business was a non-core Government activity.

“Government should be regulators of wagering businesses rather than owners.

Mr Green said all other Australian States and Territories, apart from the Australian Capital Territory and Western Australia have sold their wagering businesses.

“As the Government has always stated, it will not sell the Company unless a fair and reasonable price is achieved that maximizes the value of TOTE to Tasmanian taxpayers.

Mr Green stressed the State budget was not reliant on the sale of TOTE but it would provide more flexibility to fund initiatives such as the Cost of Living Strategy released this week.

“The Liberal Party is calling on the Government to fund the Cost of Living Strategy yet will not support the sale of the betting agency which would enable us to do it.

“The Liberals priorities under Wil Hodgman are all wrong. They would rather play politics than do what is in Tasmania’s best intersts,” Mr Green said.


	Logged

jfc

Group 2
user 723
Online

Online
Alias: jfc
Posts: 1342

2011-Oct-28, 06:31 AM

http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2011/10/28/272111_tasmania-news.html

Unflattering media coverage of this development.

"DAVID KILLICKChief reporter

TOTE Tasmania has recorded an 89 per cent drop in profit in the last financial year as debate rages over whether the government-owned wagering company should be sold.

TOTE made a profit of just $1.5 million last year, down from $10 million the year before.

The result came despite a 27 per cent increase in turnover to $961 million."

These figures are nearly as damning as the Fletcher - El-issa transactions.


	Logged

Rodent

Group 2
user 249

Offline
Posts: 1004

2011-Oct-28, 08:50 AM

If only the government had shares in brown paper bag manufacturing.........


	Logged

Bubbasmith

Group 2
user 197

Offline
Posts: 2296

2011-Oct-29, 09:55 AM

On TAB turnover of $930 million you would estimate, under normal circumstances, that Tote Tasmania would gross about $40 million, give or take a couple of million. For that administration to suggest they have only finished with a profit of $1.5 million because they incurred losses ( $38 million ??) on fixed price betting beggars belief.From an analysis of those amounts it appears their premium punters have received kick back rebates of the entire commission that Tote Tasmania should have received.
How Tote Tasmania was able to enter the Supertab pool with this arrangement with its premium punters is beyond belief, unless they were able to convince Tabcorp, whilst conveniently ignoring the kick back arrangements they had with their premium punters, that the turnover created by these premium punters would add extra turnover and stability to Supertab pools.

An absolute joke Thumb Down


	Logged

Bubbasmith

Group 2
user 197

Offline
Posts: 2296

2011-Oct-30, 08:45 PM

The following was written by "Sobig"on this forum in 2009, in view of the annual report of Tote Tasmania it is apparent the cows have come home to bite Tote Tasmania on the bum, and it even further appears the rebates have been given on all bets ( winning & losing)......

My understanding is that for every race a certain % is deducted (15% W&P, 20% big6 etc) and the balance is the dividend pool.

Therefore the dividend is the same for all punters.

For the high rollers a rebate is paid by the various TABs for their LOSING bets and as this comes from the deductions
it affects the TAB profit and the profit % component that goes to the industry and has no impact on others.

Obviously the rebates are less than the cost to the TAB resulting in a profit which they would lose if the high roller
takes their business elsewhere.

As the TABs are competing for the business and also with other types of gambling I am sure the TAB would regard the details of what they are doing as commercial in confidence and am not at all surprised that they would not release the information to the public domain.


	Logged

sobig

Group 2
user 583
Online

Online
Posts: 1422

2011-Oct-30, 09:19 PM

Obviously I was wrong about the losing bets Bubba. chin

Am pleased it seems to have got Tote Tasmania into trouble.


	Logged

Lert

Listed
user 1485
Offline

Offline
Alias: Lert
Posts: 263

2011-Oct-30, 10:27 PM

Bubba,

What you have written may be correct as far as it goes but it is not the whole story and the average punter does get screwed.

Here's one way it works:

Take a race with a relatively small place pool of say $40,000.
There is a red hot favourite; its paying $1.08 the place with a few seconds before the jump.

A big punter without a rebate looks at this race and sees little to interest him; a reasonable size bet for him would reduce the dividend to $1.00 (money back if it places). So the average punter gets their $1.08 dividend assuming the hotpot places.

Now if you offer the big punter an 8% rebate something different happens. The big punter plonks $50,000 on the hotpot to place. The available dividend reduces to $1.00 and all the average punters get screwed. They stand only to get their money back if the hotpot places and do their money cold if it doesn't.

On the other hand the big punter gets his $50,000 back as a dividend plus an $8,000 rebate. He is effectively being paid $1.08, the right price for the hotpot while the average punter gets zero.

That's just one reason why the rebate system stinks and yes the average punter is losing because of it.


	Logged

Lert

Listed
user 1485
Offline

Offline
Alias: Lert
Posts: 263

2011-Oct-30, 10:31 PM

Sorry I screwed up the maths but the principle is exactly the same. The rebate the big punter gets in the above example should have been $4,000.


	Logged

Bubbasmith

Group 2
user 197

Offline
Posts: 2296

2011-Oct-31, 08:03 AM

Lert

I did not write that, I was quoting what Sobig had previously posted. I completely agree with what you have posted. All of our postings simply illustrate why Tote Tasmania has made a pitiful $1.5 million on a turnover of $961 million because they may have paid rebates equal to their commission from Tabcorp to their "premium punters".The spin that Tote Tasmania overall profit is due to horrific losses on their fixed price bets beggars belief .


	Logged

Lert

Listed
user 1485
Offline

Offline
Alias: Lert
Posts: 263

2011-Oct-31, 10:24 AM

Sorry, Bubba, my bad read.


	Logged

jfc

Group 2
user 723
Online

Online
Alias: jfc
Posts: 1342

2011-Nov-07, 08:02 AM

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/HCATrans/2011/231.html

"The exercise of apportionment was one which Betfair did not identify how it would be done but in principle we see a concession that we have now got a line of revenue not captured by commission. If your Honours then go back to the accounts at 2015 – and there are only about three more I need to mention – the next line is something called tote revenue. It is also a substantial amount, $2.8 million. In fact, as often happens in competitive marketplaces when business models adjust, as we saw, for instance, in the airline industry, Betfair now, as well as operating a betting exchange, is in the business of a totalizator.

What it does is act as agent for the Tasmanian TAB. What happens, if you go on the Betfair website, is you can either bet through the exchange or you can place a bet directly into a tote. So here we have got an example of the rich competition which is continuing to unfold in this market. Now, the irony, of course, is that to that extent Betfair on its own case is a high-margin operator. The Tasmanian tote will have a higher margin than a betting exchange and the profits on that are distributed 50-50 between Betfair and the Tasmanian tote."

As an alternative to AntiTAB's Zeljkophilic assertions about Tote Tasmania capping kickbacks to 7%, try considering this rare factual information about how big the kickbacks must really be.

I'll comment further once I've recovered from the exhaustion of locating that info.


	Logged

jfc

Group 2
user 723
Online

Online
Alias: jfc
Posts: 1342

2011-Nov-08, 05:54 AM

Now note that 50-50 is always above 7%, and can easily be 10% or more on Exotics which form the bulk of the betting.

Also Betfair's Tote turnover is around a piddly $30 million, whereas Zeljko's turnover is probably over 10 times that.

No one with the vaguest knowledge of Zeljko's track record, could believe that Zeljko would entertain a deal worse or on par to that of Betfair.

7% is insane enough but the significantly higher actual rate is far worse.


	Logged

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10 Go Up

« previous next »

Racehorse TALK