Racehorse TALK

I count 3.  This race the last 2 years and the Andrew Ramsden when Flemington was being redone.  That race was the reason we have this one, there were reports at the time the club was keen to run a 2 mile feature.  This probably should be 3300m starting in the back straight.  The trouble with running it on the chase course is that a lot of jockeys held their horses together rather than taking off before the turn, which they should have the way the race was run.

Actually, if you count the 3050 & 3100 metre races they run, it would be more than 1 a month.

Three it is then

3.33.23SlowNew Kid In Town 2006 Andrew Ramsdan Sks

3.30.20Slow 7 Macedonian2010 Sandown Cup

3.31.92Dead 5 Olympic Win2011 Sandown Cup


So Macedonian ran his 3200m on a Slow 7 in 1.72 seconds faster than Olympic Win did on a Dead 5.

There is no doubt this years Sandown Cup was a competitive race as the field was very evenly graded - the average rating of the top seven runners was 78.  The best rated runners were 87's.  Last year the quality of the field was very much higher with the average rating of the first 7 across the line being 98.5.  The quality is reflected in the times.

While the race was competitive don't think for a minute that you witnessed a 'Euro' style event.  They have come home in 35.65.  They ran their last half mile in 47.41.  They ran the first 2400m in 2.44.5 - they walked for a mile and a half, and then they sprinted.  They averaged 13.25 to the furlong and several midrace sections were run at 14.xx.

I am not bagging the race - just calling it for what it was.  A slow, closely graded 2 mile event from which very little decent form is likely to emerge beyond the grade of the race it was.   I think it reflects vividly just how poor the staying ranks are especially when compared to last year. It has been the story of the spring really.  The quality just isn't there amongst the locals.

I am a supporter of the race.  I want them to persist with it, and I want the race to prosper, but this years edition was decidedly mediocre.

[Edited to brush off the bulldust  ]

It was run on the same course as  Macedonian won his race last year.

When will they get to prove the form next ?

Do we expect the form to be proven in a 2400m race ?

My apologies,

I watched the race online through a dongle thingy  that broke the stream up mid race and I missed most of the middle section.  I misread Manikato and thought it was run on the course proper.

That's nice,  I hope they continue to run up and down the goat track.  It adds something to the race I reckon.

As for the next assignment, I would expect the logical progression for an improving stayer coming out of what was essentially a 0-89 would be the Adelaide Cup - that's where Macedonian and a couple of others went last season.  However, in the case of this lot I would expect most would be looking at graded races on a Friday night at the Valley or the occasional graded 3000m race at Sandown.  They had best not leave Victoria though - there is next to nothing for them elsewhere.

The moaning about a lack of staying races must drive RVL to distraction - there are more genuine staying races on the Victorian calendar today than ever before.  But essentially they are catering for one trick ponies.

The sad part is that for all the programing of graded distance races in Victoria very few of the horses those races cater for have risen beyond distance graded races.

But I would think that is true for sprinters as well, very few horses graduate out of those races to stakes class.  The problem for the distance ranks is there are so few races that if only one graduates per season it doesn't add a lot to the distance ranks.

My gut feeling is we need a WFA long distance feature (actually I think two) to really encourage a proper staying program.  You see it with milers as well, every half decent miler is targeted at 2000m races because there aren't WFA races for them.

I don't agree with racing this over the hill, I think it detracted from the race - too many horses let Olympic Win get a long lead at an easyish pace because they were worried about getting the trip over the hill.  Put this on the course proper and I reckon one or two attack the leader around the bend.  Just my 2c of course.

Good points Manikato, although I would maintain sprinters are usually quick from the get go.  The often build their ratings in age restricted events and those ratings carry them over to open class even as 3YO's.  Stayers take more time and often wont see the race track until they are rising four and establish their ratings through graded middle distance races before graduating to open distance handicaps. The graded staying races tend to be for those horses who weren't able to do that, and don't tend to be a conduit for 'up and coming stayers' as much as they are for horses that simply aren't quick enough to be competitive in anything else.

Where the graded staying events are useful is as a comfort for owners who invest in staying horses who turn out to be not quick enough to be competitive in anything else.  They can still have useful careers and the chance of a cheque - and that is important too.

Greg Carpenter is interesting on the subject -

“IT may be surprising to many people, but Australia has 64 Group and Listed Races run each season at 2200m and beyond, which is more than any other country in the world. By way of comparison Great Britain has 26, and Ireland - considered by many as the home of stayers - has 14 only “The truth is the Australian Pattern system caters well for stayers with five Derbys and three Oaks, all at Gr.1 level, providing ample evidence of this. Stayers also fare well in stakes races with five of the eight richest races held in Australia being run over 2400m or further. However, racing administrators across Australia needs to support these black type races by ensuring enough distance races are run week in-week out, to underpin the staying Pattern.

“As a group we (racing administrators) have allowed the view, generally speaking, that maximum field sizes are ‘King’ in driving wagering. As a result that has swung the balance, in general programs, away from staying races to sprint racing. We need to redress this imbalance and provide continuity in programming for stayers. To achieve long term success in clawing back lost ground we may have to put up with smaller fields, in staying races, in the short to mid-term.

“Victoria has, though, led the way in its support of staying races. Every Saturday race run at Flemington over a distance of 2500m and further, is worth at least $100,000. The Lavazza over 2800m has become a semi-feature on Melbourne Cup Day. The distance of the Bagot Handicap has been extended to 2800m, and both the Mornington Cup and Ansett Stakes have been lengthened to 2400m. Added to that the Moonee Valley night season features the Stayers’ Challenge Series with 12 heats and a $100,000 final of 3000m"

“Other innovations just launched include the $150,000 Moonee Valley Night Cup over 2500m and the Galilee Three Year Old Stayers’ Series with five heats and a $100,000 final leading up to the VRC St Leger, the only race by that name run in Australia and still restricted to three year-olds. It is a model that proves the racing industry wants staying races and has the will to support them - the leap of faith is having the courage to program them.”

His point regarding field sizes is interesting, especially in relation to suggestions of WFA distance races and the like.  The ratings profile of staying horses is very pointy at the top - there are really only a handful of horses that would benefit from WFA distance races, and one of the reasons the Melbourne Cup will never be a WFA race is that maximum field size has been essential to its success and for that reason it will remain a handicap, even if only a quality handicap.  I shudder to think what sort of field size the Sandown Cup would have had if it were a WFA race even if the Classic were a handicap.

That Greg Carpenter article is very similar to the comments he made on a program that Gin(?) posted here.  What he also said was a WFA staying race would be good in allowing him to put up horses ratings to enable them to get into the Cup, even allowing for some smallish fields.

Actually, maybe the best thing that could happen for stayers is for the Melbourne Cup to lose some of it's eminence.  I sometimes think horses whole careers are centered around qualifying for the Cup while keeping a lowish weight, rather than simply contesting races for those individual races sake.

There seems to be another failure here to understand that 2400 metres is not a staying journey.
It is understood worldwide to be a middle or classic distance.

How many English Derby winners win beyond 2400 metres?
How many VRC or AJC Derby winners win beyond 2400 metres?

Carpenter is only being consistent with the ANZ Classifications which rates racing distances as Sprint (to 1300m) Middle (1301 to 1800m) Intermediate (1801m to 2101m) and Long/Extended (2101m+).

This is a variation of the classifications of the International Federation of Horse Racing Authorities classification which is as follows (coverted to metrics for the comparison)

Sprint (1000m to 1300m)
Middle (1301m to 1899m)
Intermediate (1900m to 2100m)
Long (2101m to 2700m)
Extended (2701m+)

The ANZ Classifications combine the Long & Extended classifications into a single category, presumably for practical reasons.

Sources : Australian Racing Fact Books and the IFHRA

I wonder how many STAYING races the UK and Ireland would have in the black type category if they included handicaps ?