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The "Aussie" Melbourne Cup - Melbourne Cup - Racehorse TALK

Author Topic: The "Aussie" Melbourne Cup  (Read 25895 times)

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Offline Draven39

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« 2013-Nov-04, 11:51 PM Reply #25 »
Of those five, I only consider Fawkner, Hawkspur, and Dear Demi to be any chances at winning or placing in the actual race with all the rest of the non-aussies that are running.

Ironically with it all being said, myself included, on how the quality staying types nowadays that are winning the Cup are either internationals, purchased directly from Europe to be raced here as in the case of last years winner Green Moon, or whose bloodlines are full of the best Europe have to offer, tonight I find myself with 20 odd youtube windows currently open, covering great Melbourne Cup races ranging from 1981 to last year.

I hate handicap racing, and yet I can't deny the love I feel for this race.

Doesn't matter where the horses were bred or born or trained that are running in it, we still have the best damn 2 mile race in the world and that is never going to be taken from us.  :love:

Offline Authorized

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« 2013-Nov-04, 11:59 PM Reply #26 »
Why do you hate handicap racing ?

Some numskulls here will have you believe that I hate handicap racing but that could not be further from the truth. I love handicap racing, it is simply no way to conduct group 1, 2 or 3 racing.

It is a great shame our trainers have lost the art of developing stayers.

If we have a look at tomorrow and Saturdays Flemington 2yo races they are chock full of stamina pedigrees putting a lie to the idea our breeders do not have stamina families.

Offline Draven39

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« 2013-Nov-05, 12:38 AM Reply #27 »
I guess it's because to me it shouldn't be at the top level of racing, which it is over here.

I don't consider myself to be a punter, I bet occasionally, but from a very young age I fell in love with horse racing and it had nothing to do with betting and winning money. Hell, when I first fell in love with it, I was far too young to even bet, I guess it was the theatre of it that drew me in. Dulcify and The King are a big part of what drew me in with the Cox Plate. Too young to bet, too young to understand or worry about how the track at MV plays it's part, but not too young to go 'Wow' and be hooked.

The Cup, well it's an institution and I can remember as far back as being in primary school and watching the King get beat in 1982 by Gurners Lane, and in my last year in primary school getting Black Knight in the cup sweep in 84. I just loved racing, only started to bet in 88 when I got my brother in law to place one for me when we were there at Flemington on Empire Rose. That just made it more fun. 1990 I was still only 17 so got my sister to put a bet on me on Sydeston in the Caulfield Cup that year, and again, was happy that he won. And I kept backing him in every race after that, regardless, because I loved the horse.

I'm not a punter because for one, I hate losing money so I never bet a lot, just small amounts and only the main races at Spring Racing carnival time. And so rarely on horses at short odds because I don't see the point if you are betting a small amount. For me, it just adds a bit more excitement to it when watching the race, but I'm the type of person that stands up and claps and cheers what I consider to be great moments of racing, despite the fact I had no money on the horse and the one I did back fell back through the field on the corner. Like when the Diva won her third cup, anytime Black Caviar raced (irrespective of how they never really tested her aside from the Ascot foray), Media Puzzle, even Atlantic Jewel recently when she returned from injury. I just love racing.

Bringing that back to why do I hate handicap racing? Because I believe that in racing, the best horses should win. And to me, to have horses the same age or above four years of age racing against each other, and to give one 8 kilos more than the other, just because it's a better quality horse with a better race record, and then to have the inferior horse with the lesser weight win and beat the quality horse? That to me is just stupid. It's rewarding horses of lesser quality, and punishing horses of quality and that are, or could be champions.

It's not so bad now, but look at what they did to Phar Lap? How many Melbourne Cups might he have won, if the powers that be hadn't decided to weigh him completely out of the race after he won his first Cup?

As you say, maybe handicap racing has some place in racing, but definitely at the lower levels. It's why our really great horses are forced to restrict themselves to racing only at WFA. In a handicap they would be unfairly weighted out of it to horses that are not even at their level.

Europe or the UK at least seem to have it worked out right. Correct me if I'm wrong, but their handicap races are never at group level. The group races are run at either WFA or set weights?

And for me, that is exactly how it should be.

Sorry for the long winded explanation.   :embarrassed:

EDIT: To illustrate the point, and to enter fantasy land, but say for example if Frankel was entered and ran in the Emirates Stakes, what sort of weight would he get allocated, and would you want a horse like Like Bolt with 52kg on his back beating him due to the weight difference??  :bleh:
« Last Edit: 2013-Nov-05, 12:51 AM by Draven39 »

Offline The Jackal

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« 2013-Nov-05, 01:01 AM Reply #28 »
UK racing is shithouse, they race for peanuts and too many magic millions type restricted races at age group level like er, um the Epsom Derby, the Guineas.

Offline Draven39

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« 2013-Nov-05, 01:14 AM Reply #29 »
UK racing is shithouse, they race for peanuts and too many magic millions type restricted races at age group level like er, um the Epsom Derby, the Guineas.

Sorry mate, I'm a proud aussie and all, but big purses doesn't always equal quality.

We have some great races that I am very proud of. We also have too many G1's, far too many G1's that are handicaps.

You mention the Epsom Derby and the Guineas being age restricted at group level? What the  :censored:  do you call the Victorian Derby and Caulfield Guineas??! I believe they are G1 3 year old age restricted races, are they not?

And if UK racing was shithouse, then why are so many of our top trainers happily encouraging and taking owners and syndicates over there to buy their stock and bring them back to race over here?

You're deluded I'm sorry to say.. as great as our racing is and as much as I love it, particularly the Cox Plate, I am under no illusions that the greatest horse race in the world is the Arc.  :p

Offline The Jackal

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« 2013-Nov-05, 01:22 AM Reply #30 »
The English version of the Derby and Guineas are not open to geldings, it's just a bludge to get questionable quality a gig at stud.

Offline The Jackal

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« 2013-Nov-05, 01:27 AM Reply #31 »
The Arc is a restricted race as well, hence the reason why the winners there fail as soon as they hit the Far East.

Highest quality race in the world is the Japan Cup, has been for decades now.

More money = higher quality, always has, always will.

Offline Draven39

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« 2013-Nov-05, 01:43 AM Reply #32 »
Yes, and that's why trainers all over the world are rushing to get their hands on some pure Australian bloodlines.... oh wait...   :lol:

Oh, and the Japanese believe their Japan Cup is the highest quality race, of course. That is why they have been so desperate to try to win the Arc, over and over again in recent years, failing to do so.

As far as your argument that more money = higher quality, well then, that means the Dubai World Cup is the world's greatest horse race with the best horses ever to race,  now doesn't it?  ;)

Get used to it Jackal... if the English ever decided to send their very best top liners over here against ours, it would be competitive, up to a mile at least, maybe even as far as 2000m. But any further, it wouldn't be pretty. You would finally understand why our top trainers keep looking to Europe for staying types and the blood lines.

Oh, and I love BC, but against Frankel at a mile? Glad we never got to see it.

Offline Authorized

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« 2013-Nov-05, 03:28 PM Reply #33 »
Fawkner.....................54.5................................1st
Ethiopia......................54.5................................1 length
Super Cool................54.5.................................1.75 lengths
Dear Demi.................51....................................8.85 lengths
Hawkspur..................53.5.................................13 lengths


Offline el zoro

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« 2013-Nov-05, 03:34 PM Reply #34 »
On TV they were hailing an Aussie victory beating the Internationals who ran 2nd 3rd 4th 5th.   :clap2:

Offline arakaan

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« 2013-Nov-05, 03:38 PM Reply #35 »
Oh, and I love BC, but against Frankel at a mile? Glad we never got to see it.

Are you that worried the pom's couldn't handle losing. They have a long history of it. I'm sure they would've accepted the loss with grace.   :biggrin:

Offline Draven39

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« 2013-Nov-05, 03:51 PM Reply #36 »
Are you that worried the pom's couldn't handle losing. They have a long history of it. I'm sure they would've accepted the loss with grace.    :biggrin:  

No, as a very proud aussie I'm glad it didn't happen so she was able to retire unbeaten  :beer:

Offline firezuki

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« 2013-Nov-05, 07:25 PM Reply #37 »
On TV they were hailing an Aussie victory beating the Internationals who ran 2nd 3rd 4th 5th.   :clap2:

Crowded House were also an excellent Aussie band. 

Offline Draven39

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« 2013-Nov-05, 08:08 PM Reply #38 »
And Russell Crowe is an excellent Aussie actor.   :biggrin:

That's how it works doesn't it? Spend five minutes here and we claim you as our own  ;)

Offline el zoro

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« 2013-Nov-05, 08:10 PM Reply #39 »
Maybe the accent on the Aussie victory today was the trainer & jockey involved. 

Offline chalky

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« 2013-Nov-05, 08:14 PM Reply #40 »
And Russell Crowe is an excellent Aussie actor.   :biggrin:

Nope, bloke is a pumped up Kiwi  :censored: !

Offline firezuki

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« 2013-Nov-05, 08:15 PM Reply #41 »
Maybe the accent on the Aussie victory today was the trainer & jockey involved. 

Which would be fine if Olly had ridden Gai to a memorable win instead of riding the Pommy horse.    :lol:  

Online wily ole dog

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« 2013-Nov-05, 08:19 PM Reply #42 »
On TV they were hailing an Aussie victory beating the Internationals who ran 2nd 3rd 4th 5th.   :clap2:

Oh dear
 Bloody German stallion out of an Irish mare and we are claiming it :chin:

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2013-Nov-05, 11:13 PM Reply #43 »
Year 1st 2nd 3rd Notes
2013 Fawkner Ethiopia Super Cool
2012 Precedence Niwot Lights Of Heaven
2011 Niwot Precedence The Verminator
2010 Maluckyday So You Think Zipping
2009 Shocking Master O'Reilly Alcopop
2008 Viewed Master O'Reilly Moatize
2007 Efficient Zipping Dolphin Jo
2006 Maybe Better Zipping Mahtoum
2005 Makybe Diva On A Jeune Leica Falcon
2004 Makybe Diva Zazzman Elvestroem
2003 Makybe Diva She's Archie Pentastic
2002 Mr Prudent Pentastic Rain Gauge
2001 Karasi Rain Gauge Sky Heights
2000 Brew Yippyio Freemason
1999 Rogan Josh Lahar (DH) Zazabelle (DH) (DH 2nd)
1998 Tie The Knot Skybeau Perpetual Check
1997 Might And Power Doriemus Markham
1996 Saintly Count Chivas Skybeau
1995 Doriemus Nothin' Leica Dane Coachwood
1994 Paris Lane Oompala Alcove

Online wily ole dog

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« 2013-Nov-06, 06:37 AM Reply #44 »
I didn't think Ethiopia could pull that run out after his form this prep

Offline el zoro

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« 2013-Nov-06, 09:00 AM Reply #45 »
Not sure how what the definition of Aussie is on this list.

Everyone knows Makybe Diva was European bred & brought over here.
Doriemus a Kiwi horse & Karasi an Irish horse. Both born & raced in their countries before coming over.

On that basis, Fiorente has to be an Aussie too. 
 :lol:  

Offline Authorized

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« 2013-Nov-06, 09:24 AM Reply #46 »
I didn't think Ethiopia could pull that run out after his form this prep

Except for the fact he looked to my eye to be sore on Saturday (obviously I was wrong) he alsway had it in him. I am glad his tactic have been changed back to waiting tactic.

It was a superb run yesterday. He settled for most of the journey but was than asked to travel the widest and the longest coming around the bend from the 1600m. The fact he sustained it and even got a second wind in the straight was outstanding.

Hopefully he is set for the Adelaide and Sydney cups double.

Genuine top class stayer.


Offline The Jackal

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« 2013-Nov-06, 05:49 PM Reply #47 »
He will never win another race. His run was only evidence of what a poor bunch of plodders were on display.

Offline manikato1

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« 2013-Nov-06, 05:51 PM Reply #48 »
Except for the fact he looked to my eye to be sore on Saturday (obviously I was wrong) he alsway had it in him. I am glad his tactic have been changed back to waiting tactic.

It was a superb run yesterday. He settled for most of the journey but was than asked to travel the widest and the longest coming around the bend from the 1600m. The fact he sustained it and even got a second wind in the straight was outstanding.

Hopefully he is set for the Adelaide and Sydney cups double.

Genuine top class stayer.

Actually, I think he might be a Flemington specialist.

Offline The Jackal

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« 2013-Nov-06, 06:01 PM Reply #49 »
Actually I should have qualified that a bit more.

He will never win another race........... not on the flat anyway.


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