2019-20 3YO Crop High Standard? - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK harm-plan harm-plan

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2019-20 3YO Crop High Standard? - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK

Author Topic: 2019-20 3YO Crop High Standard?  (Read 8661 times)

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Offline PoisonPen7

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O.P. « 2020-Feb-17, 11:34 PM »
The current crop of three year olds are getting plaudits.

Current G1 winners

Alligator Blood - Australian Guineas.
Shadow Hero - Randwick Guineas and Spring Champion
Sherwood Forest - NZ Derby
Jennifer Eccles - NZ Oaks
Probabeel - Surround Stks
Catelvecchio - Rosehill Guineas

From last spring

Funstar - Flight Stks
Super Seth - Caulfield Guineas
Flit - Thousand Guineas
Warning - VRC Derby
Miami Bound - VRC Oaks
Exceedance - Coolmore Classic

3yo Winners in Open G1


Alabama Express - Orr Stks
Loving Gaby - Manikato Stks and William Reid Stks
Bivouac - Newmarket Hcp


Watch Group

Superstorm
Microphone
Soul Patch
Brandenburg
Scorpz
Xilong
Two Illicit
Castelvecchio
Catalyst
Libertini
Kubrick
Anaheed
Dalasan
Thought Of That
Moonlight Maid
Chains Of Honour
Chenier
Standout
The Holy One
Vancooga
Quick Thinker
Asiago
« Last Edit: 2020-Mar-22, 05:43 AM by PoisonPen7 »

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Feb-17, 11:37 PM Reply #1 »
One missing from the Autumn noms is Never Listen, the Scone filly that came from obscurity to run 2nd in the Oaks.

Not sure if being held back for Queensland or something has gone wrong.

And I haven't been keeping up with things.

Yes, Yes, Yes retired??? Already?

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2020-Feb-18, 06:30 AM Reply #2 »
Yep. Injured  :lol:

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Feb-18, 07:15 AM Reply #3 »
Yep. Injured  :lol:

Surely they couldn't ask much for a service fee?

His sire Rubick hasn't sired a Group 1 winner yet and he has covered a lot of mares (YYY won the Everest and Rubiaski the Inglis million dollar race but those races are restricted entry)

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2020-Feb-18, 08:41 AM Reply #4 »
Surely they couldn't ask much for a service fee?

His sire Rubick hasn't sired a Group 1 winner yet

How many crops are old enough to be eligible  for a Group 1?
One?

His fees been bumped from $17600 to $38500

Offline Jeunes

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« 2020-Feb-18, 10:00 AM Reply #5 »
It is a good crop but need a few more G1wins to be compared to the Octagonal / Saintly year.

I could be wrong but Saintly, Octagonal, Our Maizcay, Gold Ace, Ravarda and Flying Spur won G1s against the older horses in that crop. There maybe more but I cannot remember.

Saintly won the Australian Cup, Occy the Cox Plate and BMW, Our Maizcay won the Showday Cup, Gold Ace won the Lightning, Flying Spur won the All Aged while Ravarda won the George Ryder.  Same season Nothin Leica Dane was placed in the Cup too.





Online Brian Mc

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« 2020-Feb-18, 10:55 AM Reply #6 »
An excellent crop.

To PP7's  list I would add Super Seth, Loving Gaby, Lyre, Kiamachi, Libertini, Kubric, Chenier and Anaheed.

Offline Dave

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« 2020-Feb-18, 02:24 PM Reply #7 »
What you need to remember is it is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy from the big breeders, after a horses 3 year old season whether they be an Entire or a Mare, if they have any group One ability (or even Black type ability for mares)they are more than likely to be retired thus depleting the older generation of most of it's "class" this then makes the next Generation look a lot better than they may otherwise have been.....and they are then worth more money at stud, can you see where it is going????.......We are not really comparing apples with apples.........sure this is one of the better crops.....but how good is it really".....If there was a Black Caviar around do you really think any of them would have worried her?? or even Hay List? I am waiting a little longer before I put them on a pedestal.........there are too many of them that look good.....for mine that is a bad sign, not a good sign.....Libertini for one was going to be a wonder horse and she failed to flatter on Saturday......all I am saying is don't get carried away by the hype, cos that is a sure way to the poor house!

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2020-Feb-18, 06:21 PM Reply #8 »
Bivouac Is the one I want to see back

Offline Jeunes

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« 2020-Feb-18, 06:40 PM Reply #9 »
I would really like to see how the middle distance and staying 3yos go.

Castlevecchio went really well in the Cox Plate but was beaten in Sydney by Shadow’s Hero who subsequently failed in the VRC Derby. Warning looked like a good stayer in the Derby but rarely do they show the same form in the Autumn.

There are a couple of nice staying 3yos who have gone well in the provincials lately too  while you get some late bloomers.

I will be intrigued to see if any 3yo backs up in the QE as it is becoming a barometer of the Autumn WFA races.

Online gunbower

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« 2020-Feb-18, 07:55 PM Reply #10 »
Dave , As generally is the case you are the voice of reason. The "spruik " is alive and well in Racing. We are probably   lucky to have seen horses like Black Caviar , Vain and Co . Obviously if they had to contend with this current group then their trainers would have had to find them easier targets. Imagine Black Caviar having to deal with a superstar like Libertini.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Feb-19, 09:43 AM Reply #11 »
How many crops are old enough to be eligible  for a Group 1?
One?

His fees been bumped from $17600 to $38500

Current 3yos are the first crop.

$38k sounds OK to me - baring in mind that no-one would ever pay that.

Offline Gintara

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« 2020-Feb-19, 08:45 PM Reply #12 »
Dave , As generally is the case you are the voice of reason. The "spruik " is alive and well in Racing. We are probably   lucky to have seen horses like Black Caviar , Vain and Co . Obviously if they had to contend with this current group then their trainers would have had to find them easier targets. Imagine Black Caviar having to deal with a superstar like Libertini.

Whilst I note your sarcasm Gun, to be fair it's obvious Libertini doesn't go on rain affected tracks.

Online gunbower

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« 2020-Feb-19, 09:16 PM Reply #13 »
Gin , One of the great racing calls of all time was when J Tapp said Luskin Star is "making  an absolute mess of them " in the Golden Slipper. When I think of Black Caviar and Libertini  I am so reminded of those words. They are simply in a whole different class.

Offline Dave

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« 2020-Feb-20, 01:29 PM Reply #14 »
I am not knocking them as a group, it is just that I have been around in racing for a long time, racing is the biggest BS industry on the Planet Bar NONE!
Lies have been repeated so many times that they are now folklore and are accepted as "facts" by all and sundry.....if that makes me a cynic, so be it!
Even "facts" that aren't downright lies have been manipulated to make us think we just thought of it.......
You have to know the difference between when it's really raining or when you are being urinated on,
This is a promising Crop but only in the context that the older crop/s has been depleted, compared with previews crops.......old Geldings like Redzel will still be competitive but they can't go on forever.....If a horse like Trapeze Artist was still around I would back him to beat Bivouac, Exceedance etc, but that's only an opinion......even between the new Crop, they seem to take turns which means there is no standout, that isn't a good sign for mine, when you go back to the Octagonal/Saintly/Nothin' Leica Dane/Filante crop as 3 year olds they were all very good but Occy was the best, he always found a way to win....none of the current crop fits that box....circumstance more than ability determines the victor when racing each other and when racing the older horse they have a huge weight advantage, the true test is when they turn 4 and are evenly matched.....but most will be gone by then, won't they?

Offline Jeunes

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« 2020-Feb-20, 03:09 PM Reply #15 »
Dave, the Occy generation as a whole was the best I have seen in depth. I saw Occy live in his splendour during his 3yo autumn and 4 yo autumn along with Saintly winning the Cup and rescuing me from a Derby Day of hell.

Occy won races at all tracks in Sydney. His best win for me was beating Juggler  as a 4yo in the Chipping Norton. Shane Dye’s finest ride and don’t mention Veandercross.

We were lucky enough that John Hawkes said yes to us visiting Occy prior to his last race which he lost to Intergaze.

People also forget Occy was an unlucky 2nd in the Slipper and won a G1 race too as a 2yo. He was a freak.

To put the 3yos in perspective back then, Mahogany, Danewin, Stony Bay, Juggler, All Our Mob, Doriemus, Brawny Spirit plus a few more were still racing. There were many other G1 winners racing too.

Offline Dave

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« 2020-Feb-20, 03:53 PM Reply #16 »
The Day Octagonal won the Chipping Norton I told everyone I knew that he was a certainty, I told them how he could and would be ridden to beat Juggler....I said there are only 3 people who could ride Octagonal the right way to beat Juggler, one was me and I am not a Jockey, one was G Moore.....and the other was Raymond Shane Dye........No other Jockey would have the guts to do something that could leave you with egg on your face if it didn't work......Juggler had the best 400 metre sprint in racing but he couldn't sustain it for 201 metres, Octagonal had the ability to sustain an 800 metre sprint, if he was going to beat Juggler he had to be in front of Juggler on the turn, he had to make Juggler chase from before the 400 metres, if he did that he was a $1.10 chance.....Beadman never would have had the guts to do that, Beadman was a great Jockey but he cared what people thought, he was more akin to a counter puncher, the race was over when they booked Dye.......I had a great win but was still devastated by the result, I knew Octagonal would win, I knew Juggler would run second, that was just as certain....and I thought Filante was just as certain to run 3rd, I had $500 plonk on the Trifecta, Half way down the straight I had it in the bag, they were 1,2,3 in order with 5 lengths back to the 4th horse, I took my eyes off Filante to watch Occy win, when the race was over I was watching the semaphore board waiting for the dividends to go up, it paid in excess of $100, I thought Christ that paid well, was working out how many $1,000's I was going to collect.....then it dawned on me,......the wrong Numbers were in the frame, I could not believe that Dupain, the Brisbane Cup winner trained by Alan Bell had got up to take 3rd away from Filante.......That's why it paid so well, it all made sense now........I still can''t believe it! That's racing!

Offline Jeunes

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« 2020-Feb-20, 04:03 PM Reply #17 »

Online Brian Mc

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« 2020-Feb-20, 04:40 PM Reply #18 »
By the way, let's not forget that Tulloch, Todman and Prince Darius were all from the same crop.  Okay, the Prince was only a very good horse but the other two were absolutely sensational.  I count myself fortunate to have witness so many of their victories and a couple of their clashes - if my memory is correct their were only two; a score of one all.

Offline Wenona

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« 2020-Feb-20, 05:01 PM Reply #19 »
The 1957 foals weren't a half bad group either.

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2020-Feb-20, 05:39 PM Reply #20 »
Persian Lyric, Wenona Girl and Sky High will do me just fine.

Offline ratsack

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« 2020-Feb-20, 08:14 PM Reply #21 »
Mr Dye
was a great tactical jockey but geeeeeees  no way would I back him on anything and most times I was right

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Feb-21, 03:39 AM Reply #22 »
Been some good 3yo crops over the years.

Another one was those foaled in 1970

Imagele
Think Big
Tontonan
Leilani
Taj Rossi
Reckless
Purple Patch (my first favourite horse)
Authentic Heir
Grand Cidium
Zephyr Bay
Asgard
Bonnybel
Dalrello
Favoured
Just Topic
Itchy Feet
Sovereign Yacht
Spedito

and even a few good ones from across the ditch

Fury's Order
Oopik
Jandell
Guest Star

Bletchingly (another 1970 foal) only had one stakes race win in The Galaxy, but he had a major influence on the Australian breeding industry. Sovereign Yacht from memory (a grey) was a good damsire.

Offline Jeunes

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« 2020-Feb-21, 07:41 AM Reply #23 »
Without putting down crops from the past, how many horses in the crop won against older horses as 3yos?

Not many do as a whole as 3yos. When they get older and stronger, some do tend to get better so the age group is better.

The Occy crop had more individual G1 wins against older horses than in recent history. As alluded before there were some very good older performers around too.


Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Feb-21, 08:25 AM Reply #24 »
Without putting down crops from the past, how many horses in the crop won against older horses as 3yos?

Not many do as a whole as 3yos. When they get older and stronger, some do tend to get better so the age group is better.

The Occy crop had more individual G1 wins against older horses than in recent history. As alluded before there were some very good older performers around too.

How many did the Occy group have?

Octagonal won the Cox Plate and the Tancred and Saintly the Australian Cup. Apart from that I thought they stuck to their age races pretty much.

Tontonan won the Oakleigh Plate, the Ajax Stks (G2), the Doncaster, the All Aged and the Delaney Qty (LR) all as a 3yo.

Taj Rossi won the Cox Plate and the George Adams (the Cantala or whatever they call it these days).

Grand Cidium won the Hill Stakes (G2) as a 3yo

Favoured won the 1974 Canterbury Stks, but not sure if that was run in the Spring or Autumn back in those days.

It is a hard thing to quantify what you ask, but if we must I'd say 1970 is ahead 0f 1992.

Qualitatively, I think there are more "good horses" in the 1970 list - my opinion, and happy to read others opinions as this is why we have these threads.

I think we tend to favour those that we have seen. That is why the opinions of people like Brian Mc, Geoff and Dave have more depth of experience and they should be respected.

The 1970 crop is probably the first one where I started an interest in racing, mainly due to the popularity of Purple Patch in Sydney.


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