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2019-20 3YO Crop High Standard? - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK

Author Topic: 2019-20 3YO Crop High Standard?  (Read 8558 times)

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Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Feb-21, 08:30 AM Reply #25 »
...just on Purple Patch, there has been a few horses over the years that have been popular local horses without really being multiple Group 1 champions.

Purple Patch, At Sea and Hot Danish are 3 I can recall from Sydney.

Luther's Luck and The Cleaner in Melbourne.

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2020-Feb-21, 08:41 AM Reply #26 »
Without putting down crops from the past, how many horses in the crop won against older horses as 3yos?


Says more about the quality of the older ones.

Offline Jeunes

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« 2020-Feb-21, 09:19 AM Reply #27 »

How many did the Occy group have?

Octagonal won the Cox Plate and the Tancred and Saintly the Australian Cup. Apart from that I thought they stuck to their age races pretty much.

Tontonan won the Oakleigh Plate, the Ajax Stks (G2), the Doncaster, the All Aged and the Delaney Qty (LR) all as a 3yo.

Taj Rossi won the Cox Plate and the George Adams (the Cantala or whatever they call it these days).

Grand Cidium won the Hill Stakes (G2) as a 3yo

Favoured won the 1974 Canterbury Stks, but not sure if that was run in the Spring or Autumn back in those days.

It is a hard thing to quantify what you ask, but if we must I'd say 1970 is ahead 0f 1992.

Qualitatively, I think there are more "good horses" in the 1970 list - my opinion, and happy to read others opinions as this is why we have these threads.

I think we tend to favour those that we have seen. That is why the opinions of people like Brian Mc, Geoff and Dave have more depth of experience and they should be respected.

The 1970 crop is probably the first one where I started an interest in racing, mainly due to the popularity of Purple Patch in Sydney.

My answer below. Should read all the posts PP before asking questions.    :lol:  

Also Gold Ace won the Galaxy too while I forgot about Strategic who won the Australia Day Stakes which was a G1 at that time. That makes it 7 individual winners too.

Donít forget Mahogany, Juggler, All Our Mob, Doriemus, Danewin etc were all racing around that time too.

It is a good crop but need a few more G1wins to be compared to the Octagonal / Saintly year.

I could be wrong but Saintly, Octagonal, Our Maizcay, Gold Ace, Ravarda and Flying Spur won G1s against the older horses in that crop. There maybe more but I cannot remember.

Saintly won the Australian Cup, Occy the Cox Plate and BMW, Our Maizcay won the Showday Cup, Gold Ace won the Lightning, Flying Spur won the All Aged while Ravarda won the George Ryder.  Same season Nothin Leica Dane was placed in the Cup too.
« Last Edit: 2020-Feb-21, 09:24 AM by Jeunes »

Offline ianb

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« 2020-Feb-21, 11:54 AM Reply #28 »
This crop will do very well if it can come close to matching the achievements of the 2009 -10 crop.

!st & 2nd Cox Plate (So You Think & Manhattan Rain)
1st Oakleigh Plate (Starspangledbanner)
1st& 3rd Newmarket (Wanted  & Starspangledbanner)
1st TJ Smith (Melito)

Then there were the 2 mares who did not win Group1 races against  all ages  that season but between them won 46 races throughout their career (Black Caviar & More Joyous)

Offline Jeunes

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« 2020-Feb-22, 08:28 AM Reply #29 »
It is going to be an interesting day for Super Seth today and his future plans. A good run or a win will mean the All Star Mile or will they back up in the Guineas as it is a 3 week gap otherwise from todayís run.

Online sobig

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« 2020-Feb-22, 11:13 AM Reply #30 »
Could be going to the Randwick Guineas in 2 weeks

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Feb-22, 11:07 PM Reply #31 »
This is a modified list now in the OP - I added Brian Mc's suggestions and also today's Hobartville winner Brandenburg plus we forgot Dalasan.

Alligator Blood - Magic Millions 3yo winner
Catalyst - NZ's top 3yo
Castelvecchio - G1 winner as 2yo and 2nd to Japanese champion Lys Gracieux in the Cox Plate
Warning - Vic Derby winner
Shadow Hero - winner of the G1 Champion Stks
Miami Bound - impressive winner of the VRC Oaks
Microphone - winner of the AJC Sires and recent Autumn Stakes at Caulfield
Alabama Express - Colt who won the Orr Stks
Bivouac - beat Yes, Yes, Yes in the Golden Rose
Exceedance - Winner of the Coolmore Classic
Funstar - runaway winner of the Flight Stks
Probabeel - Probably NZs best filly and 2nd to Funstar in the Flight
Flit - 1000 Guineas winner who resumed with a win in the Light Fingers
Super Seth - Caulfield Guineas winner
Loving Gaby - Manikato winner, 2nd both ATC Sires and Champagne
Lyre - 2019 Blue Diamond wionner
Kiamachi - 2019 Golden Slipper winner
Libertini - dual Group 2 winner as a 3yo
Kubrick - winner of $1m Bondi Stks
Chenier - placed G3 at 3rd start
Anaheed - dual G2 winner plus G3
Brandenburg - Hobartville winner. 2nd Carbine Club
Dalasan - multiple group winner
Thought Of That - didn't get the distance of the Derby but was brilliant before that. Nommed for the Randwick Guineas, Doncaster and QE2
Moonlight Maid - came from well back in the VRC Oaks to run third on a track that wasn't suiting back markers
Chains Of Honour - won the Grand Prix in Brisbane at only his 4th start


Hobartville

Castelvecchio was a very nice run from a future standpoint. Went to the line beautifully.

Shadow Hero similar.

Kubrick was OK. Warning raced like he needs 2400m.

Microphone was disappointing.

Winner Brandenburg was 2nd to Dalasan in Melbourne in the spring and showed that he may have improved a little with the spell. Two wins from 8 and never out of a place.

He becomes the first Australian stakes winner for his sire Burgundy, and is a half brother to the multiple stakes winning stablemate Luvaluva who is in NZ at the moment.

Oakleigh Plate

Bivouac got going towards the end. Wet track or whatever, showed no pace. I would want to see this horse perform as an autumn 3yo before considering again. Had too much weight for mine.

Anaheed was a shocker.

Futurity

That was one weird race. It was like they almost finished in the same order they were at the 800m. I'd forgive the beaten horses in that race including Super Seth, and they may perform better in races where there is a genuine pace.


Offline Jeunes

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« 2020-Feb-22, 11:36 PM Reply #32 »
I am not sure but are we rating this crop too highly?

I was disappointed with Super Seth and I am not talking through my wallet. He had a good seat outside the leader and Streets of Avalon had a picnic in front but until today was a good handicapper at best. There were talks he was facing the breeze etc but he was getting weight too. The Blue Diamond winner was 3 deep while Miss Siska sat outside the leader too.

Super Seth is a very good horse and I still  not sure what his plans are. The trainer may have an idea but he is a good miler with a good pace and few off the lead.

Bivouac needs luck in some ways in a big field. He has only once in a field of over 10 with 3 of his other wins in a field of 8 or less. I just donít think he is a 1000-1200m horse but more 1200-1400m and a good chance at a mile if he can get a decent run.

Online Gintara

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« 2020-Feb-23, 02:14 PM Reply #33 »
There's a massive * on any form out of Caulfield yesterday IMHO  :stop:

One I didn't understand was the tactics on Microphone, what the hell was that  :shrug:


Offline Dave

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« 2020-Feb-25, 12:35 PM Reply #34 »
Jeunes, I remember backing a great horse named Time and Tide  when he won an open flying handicap against some of Sydney's best sprinters.....as a 2 year old before the Golden Slipper!!(which he would have won had it not been run on a bog track, I think from Memory it was run on a Tuesday, postponed from the previous Saturday due to torrential rain)
Pago Pago won that years Slipper and was sold over seas and Time and Tide won the sires and Champagne......a year that also included Ripa

Offline Dave

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« 2020-Feb-25, 12:43 PM Reply #35 »
Ratsak that is a little silly.....you could say the same about every jockey who ever lived........I would not back them and I am right most of the time.........all jockeys lose more than they win!....Dye was one of the very few that won on horses that should not have won....Like Octagonal......Beadman would have run second, the same as he did when he rode Occy at his precious start.....and it would have looked like Juggler was the better horse(again)....so no one (except me) would have blamed Beadman!

Online Brian Mc

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« 2020-Feb-25, 02:57 PM Reply #36 »
Jeunes, I remember backing a great horse named Time and Tide  when he won an open flying handicap against some of Sydney's best sprinters.....as a 2 year old before the Golden Slipper!!(which he would have won had it not been run on a bog track, I think from Memory it was run on a Tuesday, postponed from the previous Saturday due to torrential rain)
Pago Pago won that years Slipper and was sold over seas and Time and Tide won the sires and Champagne......a year that also included Ripa

Todman also won a Welter at Rosehill BEFORE his Golden Slipper start.  Of course, he also won the Slipper by 8 lengths from Flying Kurana and the filly Concert Star..  That was the inaugural running of the Slipper.

Although finishing well adrift of Todman in this race, Concert Star was no dead-beat.  The following comes from a Wikipedia account of Star Kingdom's  progeny.
CONCERT STAR, foaled in 1954 from the Hua mare Huarette, was another two-year-old champion for her sire, capturing the AJC Gimcrack Stakes, the VRC Maribymong Stakes and placing in the STC Golden Slipper Stakes. Her progeny included Australian stakes winner Tantrum and co-champion Australian two-year-old Academy Star.

BTW, my memory of the running of Pago Pago's Slipper is the same as yours.



Offline Dave

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« 2020-Feb-25, 03:38 PM Reply #37 »
While I have the utmost respect for Todman and have no doubt he was a Champion, from memory not sure he really confirmed it.......how many times did he beat good older horses? he ran 4th to Redcraze (with excuses) at WFA, he never had enough opportunities.....his reputation really is based on what  "he might have done....or woulda/coulda done" had he remained sound....he beat Tulloch as a 2 year old over 6 furlongs......not sure that means anything, Tulloch was not expected to be a 2 year old.....and 6 furlongs was a long way from his best distance....and yet still beat Todman over 7 furlongs....as a 2 year old.....what does it all mean????......No doubt he was a champion....we just don't know how good he "might" have been!.....now he was before my time.....and I am only going on what I remember reading, his record may have been a lot better than I recall.....and memories are not always the most reliable guide at the best of times....so feel free to correct me if I am wrong

Online sobig

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« 2020-Feb-25, 04:50 PM Reply #38 »
12 starts 10 wins and a second.

Sire of 30 stakeswinners

Online Brian Mc

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« 2020-Feb-25, 05:27 PM Reply #39 »
feel free to correct me if I am wrong

Dave, Todman was great.

At his first start, just prior to Christmas 1956, (I was fortunate to be there) he blitzed the field, won by 10 lengths and  smashed the Australian 5 furlong record by a smidgen under half a second.  A few days later he won again, this time held back so that the margin was a mere 3 lengths.  In the Autumn he won an Open Welter first-up and followed that with the Slipper runaway. Then came the clash with Tulloch in the 7f Sire's.  T J Smith's colt (6/1) won by 2 lengths from Todman (1/6). On the next Thursday Todman turned the tables in the shorter Champagne (6f as it was in those days) by 6 lengths, I think.  The champions were never to meet again, leaving it at one all.


In the spring Todman won the Hobartville, Tulloch the Warwick Stakes, Todman the Canterbury Guineas and Tulloch won the Rosehill Guineas. Todman then ran in the Hill Stakes and broke down with a fractured off-hind fetlock joint.  Tulloch went on to win the AJC Derby, the Caulfield Guineas, the Caulfield Cup and the VRC Derby.

Todman slowly recovered from his injury - McCartin gave him lots and lots of swimming. He returned as an autumn 5 year old. He won a Flying at Canterbury, then went to Melbourne and won the Lightning and the Futurity.  His owner, Stan Wootton, then decided to retire Todman, with  record of 10 wins from 12 starts.  His stud career was also first class, but that is another story.
« Last Edit: 2020-Feb-25, 05:30 PM by Brian Mc »

Offline Jeunes

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« 2020-Feb-25, 05:49 PM Reply #40 »
Champions or Superstars aside, most crops struggle to have individual winners  as 3yos against older horses in G1s.

Some crops donít have champions but still perform well. I am still not sold on this yearís crop as being superior to Occyís year.

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2020-Feb-25, 06:25 PM Reply #41 »
I'll stick with assessing a two or three year old by how they go in the premier races against their own crop rather than how they go against the older ones.

 

Offline fours

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« 2020-Feb-25, 07:09 PM Reply #42 »
Hmmmm,

How many have matched Malua?

A Golden Slipper and a MC albeit I saw neither!

Fours

Offline Dave

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« 2020-Feb-25, 07:55 PM Reply #43 »
Brian, correct me if I am wrong....but you didn't say one thing about where I was wrong??.......I know Todman had a great record 10 out of 12......but most were in baby races and beating Tulloch over 6 furlongs in a baby race, that was Todmans wheelhouse, it is hardly proof of Championship qualities......I am not knocking him but you can hardly compare his record to Tulloch, can you?.....he just wasn't around long enough......how far would Tulloch beat him by if they met in a 2400 metre race(Tullochs wheelhouse)?....I have seen many horses run time(break records) that were far from champions.....Todman was a Champion....but that is only an opinion....there really is no race track performances to back it up.....Gytrash just won the Lightning.....does that make him the next Todman?? What about Streets of Avalon, he just did what Todman did....he won the Futurity.....it doesn't take a champion to win those races........albeit the Futurity was a much different race in Todman's day.......I think from memory it was WFA with Penalties(and probably allowances).....did Todman carry a penalty when he won??.....really I am just kidding, playing the Devils advocate.....would have been great if Todman had've been around a bit longer.......I just missed Tulloch too....I started racing with a passion in about 1961 when I was about 13 and G Moore and TJ were in their prime....and no one had ever heard of J.B. Cummings......but that's another story!

Offline ratsack

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« 2020-Feb-25, 08:24 PM Reply #44 »
Ratsak that is a little silly.....you could say the same about every jockey who ever lived........I would not back them and I am right most of the time.........all jockeys lose more than they win!....Dye was one of the very few that won on horses that should not have won....Like Octagonal......Beadman would have run second, the same as he did when he rode Occy at his precious start.....and it would have looked like Juggler was the better horse(again)....so no one (except me) would have blamed Beadman!
true
but for me , he didn't suit
flashy and brash , like his riding style great for pages of print but as I said not for me !

Online Brian Mc

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« 2020-Feb-26, 08:31 AM Reply #45 »
Dave, I think we will have to agree to disagree about the status of Todman in the hierarchy of Australian champion racehorses. From what you write I see
 that you reckon he was pretty good, but...  On the other hand I have him  with the real elite.  I guess one's opinion is coloured by what one has seen and at what impressionable age he/she saw it.

Todman carried 65.5kg when he won the Futurity.

1961: Bart Cummings wasn't completely unknown.  He was strapper for his father's horse Comic Court, a VRC Derby and Melbourrne Cup(and much more)  winner.  He took out his own trainer's licence in 1953 and had his first Cup starter, Asian Court in 1958. The rivalry between Comic Court and Carbon Copy is another (interesting) story. There are so many, many interesting stories in horse racing. Let us enjoy them all.

Offline nemisis

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« 2020-Feb-26, 09:56 AM Reply #46 »
Generally speaking there is usually a changing of the guard in 3 yr old racing this time of year when the slower maturing types develop.

The NZ Derby  has some promising types and some almost certainly will find their way here.
https://loveracing.nz/raceinfo/48640/meeting-overview.aspx

Dragon Leap is as Australian  as you can get and probably should be unbeaten while the Jimmy Choux filly Two Illicit  also looks very good.

Track conditions do count big time in racing and if there is some moisture in the track I will have something on the son of Redwood.....Reggiewood.

Very good racing site that one.

Offline Dave

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« 2020-Feb-26, 03:42 PM Reply #47 »
I think Todman was as good as you think he is.....I just don't think he was around long enough to be ranked with the likes of Tulloch.......you can only rank him on what your opinion thinks he could do....but he never really did it.....probably the best field he met was behind Red Craze.......he had excuses off course, he broke down.....you can't condemn him but you can't give him credit for beating Red Craze either.....that would be an assumption.....When I make a judgement I like it to be based purely on Facts, not just a horse I have a soft spot for so I can elevate them up the order.....
My fav horse of all Time was Tobin Bronze.....and I am yet to see a better horse.....Winx included........Winx never won a race that Tobin could not have won....Not sure Winx could carry 9 stone 10 pounds(or there abouts) and win a Caulfield Cup(I think she could but I am not sure) Tobin Bronze did! and then he gave Cabochon, a top class horse a big start from the furlong and 2 stone in weight and ran him down on the post in a Doncaster.....not sure Winx could do that.....but hey....I doubt anyone else would agree with me.....but they'd be wrong!!!!
When I said Bart was unknown, I meant to a 13 year old kid from NSW.....no doubt some one knew him but he wasn't a house hold legend like he was by  the end of the decade!

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2020-Feb-26, 04:17 PM Reply #48 »

Did Brian rank Todman with Tulloch?

Surely not.

Winx sits as the best since  him in my lifetime and I was a big fan of pretty boy Tobin Bronze.





Offline Dave

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« 2020-Feb-26, 04:44 PM Reply #49 »
JWesleyHarding, do you think I am wrong???.....
What race did Winx win that you don't think The Bronze Bullet would have won??....conversely do you think Winx could have carried the Grandstand and won the Caulfield Cup and a Doncaster when the minimum weight was a postage stamp!?? Obviously you do..........but Waller and the Owners didn't.....they were afraid to even try!....I think she could have.....but he did!.....The hero has to be the one who actually went to war.....not the one who stayed home and bragged about what they would/coulda done!......but as I said in my previous note....I didn't expect any one to agree with me.....that only reassures me that I MUST be right!.....I was there the long weekend that Tobin Bronze won the Doncaster and Galilee won the Sydney Cup on the Monday.........What an experience for a young Kid.......they both carried the Grandstand and plenty thought they couldn't do it.....but they were heroes.....not bullies!


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