Racehorse TALK

Thoroughbred Racing Talk => Racing Talk => Topic started by: jfc on 2014-Mar-19, 08:57 AM

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2014-Mar-19, 08:57 AM
Too hard searching for pertinent Betfair threads, so I started a new one with a hopefully general theme.

Hopefully I'll remember to bookmark it.

Now Packer's reported move for full control of Betfair looks like tremendous news.

Hopefully it will give V'landys one more huge headache.

Betfair can make dramatic improvements to its business model here.

But currently there is no chance of it making even the slightest software change needed to make that happen.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/crowns-move-on-betfair-shortens-odds-on-james-packer-wagering-play-20140318-3506r.html
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2014-Mar-20, 05:10 AM
Seems to be going ahead.

I gather one thing Betfair cannot do is the seemingly simple change of different Rakes for different segments.

Once that gargantuan task has been accomplished , it might then offer plenty of food for thought for V'landys.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/dataroom/crown-takes-ownership-of-betfair-arm/story-fnjw8txa-1226859567285#mm-premium
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2014-Apr-14, 06:58 PM
SBS just told me Senator Harradine has kicked the bucket.

It failed to mentioned his greatest effort that got him into the Richard Cranium Hall of Fame.

Putting the kybosh on in running betting.

Now we have Dame Anthony Abbott continuing that insanity.

The sooner Turnbull or even Hockey push that anachronism aside, and Packer can bend their ears on overturning the in running farce the better.

The consumer response will have the added benefit of having both V'landys and Walsh forcibly retired to a fat farm.

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2014-May-17, 10:29 AM
No BO5 today?

No Betfair Quinellas?

Thank Attis!


The time cost of those manual processes was phenomenal, and time is something definitely ain't on my side.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2014-May-17, 11:06 AM
Just learned BO5s are at Doomben only today.

The new format makes it hard to find.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2014-May-19, 11:05 AM
Interesting theories that Betfair may pull the plug on Australian Exchange betting.

On horseracing - maybe?

But why also fold AFL etc?

AFL markets look bloody healthy. Most matches hold roughly as much as Group Race.

Less expensive maintenance with scratchings and reduction factors.

http://www.sportismadeforbetting.com/
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2014-Dec-17, 08:16 AM
Not sure what the point of all this is, but my Betfair screen tells me all my non-Exchange bets will soon go to Tripp's outfit.

https://sportsbook.betfair.com.au/

http://www.theage.com.au/business/james-packers-crown-takes-control-of-beteasy-20141216-128ad5.html
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2014-Dec-18, 07:47 AM
Got this email today:

Betfair has teamed up with BetEasy to form an exciting family of wagering operators offering the best array of betting options and the highest standards of service.

Just like Betfair, BetEasy is an energetic Australian-owned company that has invested heavily in giving its customers the best-possible betting experience online and on mobile.

What does this mean?

You can continue to engage with the betting exchange in exactly the same way as you currently do, and Betfair will continue to improve this unique and important betting platform.

The vast majority of Betfair customers use the exchange for the price advantage and flexibility that this superior wagering platform provides.

From Tuesday 6 January, customers looking to use non-exchange bet types like Best of 4, racing exotics, and sport multis will be serviced by BetEasy where an even larger array of options of that type exist.

To find out more about BetEasy and these changes, click here.

What do I need to do?

You don't need to lift a finger. There's a BetEasy account reserved for you and you will be able to access it using your Betfair login details from Tuesday 6 January 2015.

You can even choose to make a one-off transfer from today onwards. This transfer of funds won't take place until your new account at BetEasy is made available to you from Tuesday, January 6. The percentage of the balance you select to transfer will be calculated when the transfer takes place on January 6.

If you would rather not have a BetEasy account created, you can choose to opt out using the below button.

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Lert on 2014-Dec-18, 08:27 AM
All it means is that competition between corporate bookmakers is being even further reduced.
The Packer Juggernaut has bought BetEasy.
They already own Betfair which runs a betting exchange as well as a traditional bookmaking arm.
The Betfair business is dominated by the betting exchange and the bookmaking arm has struggled to get traction.
To cut costs they are closing down the bookmaking arm of Betfair which will now focus solely on the betting exchange business.
Of course they are trying to channel all of Betfair's current bookmaking business clients over to BetEasy rather than lose them to a rival bookmaker.

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: D-G on 2015-Jan-19, 05:16 PM
Why is it illegal to bet in play in things such as the tennis etc in Australia?

Might actually keep a track of the criminals if allowed, but as it is, turns legal people into "criminals"

Einstein had a nice quote about creating laws that are unenforceable, and thus creating more criminals
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Bubbasmith on 2015-May-11, 09:10 AM
Matt Stewart editorial in today's Melbourne press. Interesting that he rarely if ever writes about rebates given to high rollers by Tabcorp, somewhat to his fellow Sydney scribes in the News Corp stable. :chin:

Robert Smerdon and his foreman Stuart Webb are not dills.
They know their horses, know the form, know the map, know how and when to bet.
But they are petrified of Betfairitis. Everyone is.
On Saturday everyone thought Lumosty was a good thing at Flemington. The form gurus were all over her. She’d bee too classy, too sharp.
But Lumosty was “off’’ on the betting exchange.
 
Smerdon was at Morphettville and Webb in the Flemington grandstand as Lumosty cantered to the gates, struck down by Betfairitis.
She was unlayable on Betfair and drifted, alarmingly, from $3.20 to $5 on official betting fluctuations.
Both trainer and foreman were being bombarded by texts. “Had a leg fallen off?’’
An odd thing happened. Lumosty bolted in.
Smerdon and Webb said afterwards that their confidence was shot by the time the gates opened.
Since Betfair’s arrival from the UK about a decade ago they and others have learned that the exchange, where in simple terms someone plays bookie and someone else punter, is rarely wrong.

Trainer Robert Smerdon says his confidence was shot about Lumosty’s prospects because of Betfair by the time the gates opened.
A wise old professional punter — let’s call him The Emu — said Betfair was “God”.
“If they’re out the gate at Betfair, they just don’t win,’’ he said.
The Emu cited a recent example. “Horse trained by Mark Kavanagh at Ballarat last week; had trialled beaut, looked a moral. Was something like $2.50 to $2.30 on official flucs but you could get $7 on Betfair. It ran tailed off, last.’’
The Emu says the crippling effect of Betfairitis proves some stables (he wasn’t referring to Kavanagh) must leak like bullet-riddled buckets.
“Info’s getting out, simple as that,’’ he said. “One might be a bit sore, put in an average gallop. Low-paid staff can make a good quid leaking to big Betfair punters.
“But the pros are also doing their own markets, which are often far different than say fixed odds or official betting fluctuations and their opinions are represented through odds available on the exchange. Some big punters are also manipulating markets on it. There is a hell of a lot of smoke and mirrors with Betfair.’’
The stewards are well aware Betfair is God. Whole rooms are dedicated to monitoring it.
Stewards pay little attention to official betting fluctuations but if one is “off’’ on Betfair — like Baron Archer at Echuca in March — alarm bells go off.
Racing Victoria chief steward Terry Bailey said he and his panel found Betfair “very accurate”.
“Many drug tests and inquiries have been sparked by wildly drifting favourites. But the statistical guys (punters) are big on it, one in particular. If he reckons a favourite can’t win, it will be out the gate (drift alarmingly),’’ he said.

Terry Bailey and his stewards monitor Betfair very closely and believe the betting exchange is “very accurate”.
Bookmakers are also believers.
They used to whip up their own betting markets, with an eye on the bookie next door, but most have learned that the real story of the race that’s not yet run is told by Betfair.
The exchange crashed during the middle day of the Warrnambool carnival last week. Some reckon Russian gangsters infected Betfair’s software with a virus, which they’d done before.
The bookies stood helpless on their stands, naked without the wisdom of the exchange.
But for all of its power, the local exchange is said to be in strife; huge overseas but far from it here.
A Betfair spokesman denied it was struggling, saying “the exchange is growing strongly and is the only wagering platform that can service sophisticated and winning customers’’.
Asian exchanges, which are difficult to hold to any account, are already being used by some colourful types. They are hovering as Betfair’s murky successors
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: sharply on 2015-May-11, 09:45 AM
All states should be doing what Victoria is doing by having Corporate betting activities disclosed to them in a timely manner-With the Corporates being obliged to verify the identity of all clients,Racing officals should be in a much better position to draw a picture of betting activity on each race compared to how betting was pre internet days,particularly when the illegal SP Bookies existed.I hope we never lose "The Fair"-With SP's around 101% Plus a Max 6.5%comm,giving a final worst scenario SP of around 108%,they exert a downward pressure on Bookie's %'s,resulting in the most competitive Betting environment ever for Aussie Punters.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2015-May-11, 05:13 PM


The tragedy is that Betfair was handicapped out of the race in Australia by the levy on turnover instead of gross profit.

If the so-called 'Asian exchanges' were more than a mythical challenge more people would know of them and be using them -- their integrity would be critical to their market credibility and future prospects.

These 'exchanges' do not exist in any meaningful way.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-May-11, 05:31 PM
The turnover levy on Betfair is unfair.

That has led to a massive drop in liquidity - both here and the UK.

My bet is that Asian Exchanges have been the beneficiaries.

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2015-May-11, 05:44 PM


I hear what is said -- but please tell us the contact points for the offshore 'betfairs' -- overwhelmed with new money the debate may reopen about turnover or gross profit being the base for a fair levy.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-May-11, 06:13 PM

I hear what is said -- but please tell us the contact points for the offshore 'betfairs' -- overwhelmed with new money the debate may reopen about turnover or gross profit being the base for a fair levy.

You could try PMing HarmersHaven who almost seemed he was spruiking for business here.

Sure, he may out you just as he outed me, but the resultant unexpected exposure might mean that sooner or later someone might contact you.

More seriously it's a word of mouth type thing.

So it might mean asking some significant punter or bookmaker known to you to make overtures on your behalf.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2015-May-11, 09:04 PM


PMing does not strike a chord on google.

When speaking was modern technology, Thommo's built a business on word-of-mouth,  but it is not the way to go now.

Either they want a business or they do not -- and punters will be wary of an operator who may leave without a trace.

Surely there is some insulated island haven with internet connections that can use its sovereignty to protect a legitimate 'betfair'.

All rumour and no substance sounds like bulltish.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: HarmersHaven on 2015-May-11, 10:23 PM

The tragedy is that Betfair was handicapped out of the race in Australia by the levy on turnover instead of gross profit.

If the so-called 'Asian exchanges' were more than a mythical challenge more people would know of them and be using them -- their integrity would be critical to their market credibility and future prospects.

These 'exchanges' do not exist in any meaningful way.

Another of the "I don't know about it, so they can't possibly exist" brigade.

The more you type Ol' Pete, the more you disgrace yourself.

Punters representative? Punters spokesperson? Punters advocate? You are nothing more than an irrelevant old man with little clue, lots of hot air and access to a keyboard.


Here's an article from the SCMP, about your non-existant exchange: http://www.racing.scmp.com/freeservice/news/news20141123a.asp
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2015-May-12, 08:40 AM


That is a good story -- mainly about how the HK 'off course' market has adapted to technology -- but the message is the same, 'illegal' betting dominates win and place betting.

Citibet is not Citibank and it is not clear how TAB punters here can open an account -- in that sense it 'does not exist'.

Eating pie in the sky is not nourishing -- if Citibet cards are put on the table in an open business the customers will want in.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Jul-10, 04:16 PM
Now it's hiked the Rake to 8% for V'landys races.



https://www.betfair.com.au/info/ausracing/
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Jul-13, 04:33 PM
Betfair could easily have suspended the Brownlow Market while Fyfe's future was in doubt.

Instead we have opportunists or whatever playing silly buggers.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: whispering on 2015-Jul-13, 05:35 PM
will betfair be the preferring wagering platform of victoria now crown owns it and crownbet and racing.com


or am I dreaming :)
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Jul-14, 09:47 AM
will betfair be the preferring wagering platform of victoria now crown owns it and crownbet and racing.com


or am I dreaming :)

No I do not think you Victorians are dreaming.

Jamie Packer's Betfair and Crown are currently trying to steal wagering revenue off their competitors and I think their tactic is to suffer a little short term pain with the vision thing while they run the smaller corporates out of business.

Betfair have two of their own on the RVL board and Packer's plan is well and truly under way.

Interesting logic that. We will drop the commission on Victorian Racing reflecting a lower charge from RVL.

So the left hand (Betfair) is paying less to RVL, and because it is being charged less for wagering it conveniently passes this on to customers. But the right hand (Crown) is paying RVL for racing vision on their web site.

I wonder what the sum of the parts is?

If I were a smaller corporate bookmaker, and I were losing money with the current broadcast rights debacle, I'd be reading up on the Competition and Consumer Act 2010 (CCA), and in particular I would read up on terms like unconscionable conduct, predatory pricing, cartel, etc  :)
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-06, 01:48 PM
I've only realised how significant this Betfair RVL deal is:

Racing Victoria recently amended the race fields’ fees that it charges betting exchange operators. On a standard meeting, Betfair will now be charged 1.0 per cent of net customer winnings. This increases to 1.5 per cent for Group and Listed meetings, and 2.0 per cent for Premier meetings such as Melbourne Cup Day.

This means that Betfair will now longer be charged on Turnover.

Say Betfair's average Rake (after discounts) is 4%.

Then RVL gets 25% of that on standard meetings.

But 50% on Premier meetings.

One intriguing consequence is that there was a rival Australian Exchange very briefly, but that closed because of the V'landys fees.

Maybe that could now reopen but not bother with the V'landys model areas?

Bring it on!

http://www.racing.com/news/2015-07-07/vic-wagering-figures-remain-solid
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-06, 02:00 PM


Jamie Packer's Betfair and Crown are currently trying to steal wagering revenue off their competitors and I think their tactic is to suffer a little short term pain with the vision thing while they run the smaller corporates out of business.

Wonder how defamation lawyers would view such an accusation?
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Aug-06, 05:47 PM
Wonder how defamation lawyers would view such an accusation?

Wow! Is that the best you can do to try and get me   :lol:

Steal = "competitively win" in this instance for the people who need a little help  ;)

It does indeed look like RVL are invoking a wagering taxation model proposed so keenly by Andrew Twaits when he was head of Betfair. He is now on the board of Directors for RVL.

For those that don't know the history, the corporate bookmakers took Racing NSW all the way to the High Court over Racefields legislation and lost comprehensively. They wanted to be charged on profit whereas Racing NSW charges on turnover.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-06, 06:04 PM
Steal = "competitively win" in this instance for the people who need a little help  ;)

No it doesn't.

No alternative meaning of "steal" comes even close to your claim.

A reasonable person would conclude that you are trying to suggest Betfair was doing something unfair.

Competitors are allowed to increase market share. Provided they do so fairly.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Amara on 2015-Aug-06, 06:23 PM
The whole notion of backing horses to lose with Betfair is antithetical to the spirit of racing Bart Cummings said that a decade ago
Have linked totes or a national tote and let bookies and the corporates lay off there
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-06, 06:35 PM
The whole notion of backing horses to lose with Betfair is antithetical to the spirit of racing Bart Cummings said that a decade ago
Have linked totes or a national tote and let bookies and the corporates lay off there
From my mathematical standpoint Backing and Laying are the same thing.

Backing A = Laying the complement of A

If I fancied A, then rather then Backing it, I would go to the trouble of offering Lays on all the others.

Because I believe that convoluted way typically increases my Expectation.

However I suspect Fletcher's Laying style is different. Presumably influenced by his insider BFFs.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Aug-06, 07:33 PM
No alternative meaning of "steal" comes even close to your claim.

"Stealing business" from someone is quite a common term.

Nice try to put words in my mouth.  emthdown
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Gintara on 2015-Aug-06, 08:57 PM
The whole notion of backing horses to lose with Betfair is antithetical to the spirit of racing Bart Cummings said that a decade ago
Have linked totes or a national tote and let bookies and the corporates lay off there

It's what bookies do everytime they put up the odds, what makes it right then?

Anyway, by definition every time you have a bet, aren't you betting against the others  :/

Anyone who has an understanding of BF knows the platform is fine.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2015-Aug-07, 10:07 PM


Betfair will win in the end

It will take time but a Betfair exchange will be the business model of the global survivors in the business of delivering racing gambling entertainment.

Australia simply does not get it -- and is headed to be a supplier of bred livestock only.

Europe (UK/France) and Asia (HK/Sp/China) do get it and when they openly embrace an international 'exchange' model they will cream the business.

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: ratsack on 2015-Aug-07, 10:24 PM

Betfair will win in the end

It will take time but a Betfair exchange will be the business model of the global survivors in the business of delivering racing gambling entertainment.

Australia simply does not get it -- and is headed to be a supplier of bred livestock only.

Europe (UK/France) and Asia (HK/Sp/China) do get it and when they openly embrace an international 'exchange' model they will cream the business.



tell the truth

betfair sent British racing insolvent
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: sobig on 2015-Aug-07, 10:42 PM
And Betfair (and bookmakers) are banned in Hong Kong
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: ratsack on 2015-Aug-07, 10:47 PM
who is gunna pay for the horses , infrastructure etc

i don't no why i bother    :slaphead:
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-08, 05:18 PM
Betfair averages today per race:

$300,302 Randwick
$367,285 Flemington

+22.3% despite having an extra race

Price sensitive punters that V'landys denies exist have kicked him where the sun don't shine.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Gintara on 2015-Aug-08, 09:34 PM
tell the truth

betfair sent British racing insolvent

Think it was pretty cactus before BF  :chin:
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: ratsack on 2015-Aug-08, 10:07 PM
Think it was pretty cactus before BF  :chin:

true mate

but did BF help the cause   :chin:
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-09, 06:49 AM
Not sure why anyone should be trying to steer this discussion into Lay Back and think of England, considering what an irredeemable mess the local industry is in.

Consider what an impact Betfair has if you accept the estimate that its presence lifts overall revenue by 20%.

That is if Betfair is down, punters might go elsewhere, but nowhere near enough to compensate.

Presumably if Betfair action is merely lower, overall revenue will also be impacted significantly.

V'landys was clobbered on Betfair yesterday, so I doubt he'll be enthralling us with how exceptional turnover has been, anytime soon.


Tim Moore-Barton, CEO of Betfair Australia, believes that more racing administrators are becoming aware of the importance of having a viable onshore betting exchange.

“The technology outage that we had during the Warrnambool Carnival in May is a pretty interesting case study,” said Moore-Barton on Racing.com’s Racing Ahead on RSN.

“I think that led to Racing Victoria understanding the importance of the product.

“The first two days of Warrnambool had industry turnover across all operators being up 17 per cent (Tuesday) and 15 per cent (Wednesday).

“Unfortunately on the third day (Thursday), we had a full day outage and that actually led to industry turnover being down 6 per cent.

“When Betfair was down, the industry as a whole suffered.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Aug-09, 07:48 AM

Tim Moore-Barton, CEO of Betfair Australia, believes that more racing administrators are becoming aware of the importance of having a viable onshore betting exchange.

“The technology outage that we had during the Warrnambool Carnival in May is a pretty interesting case study,” said Moore-Barton on Racing.com’s Racing Ahead on RSN.

“I think that led to Racing Victoria understanding the importance of the product.

“The first two days of Warrnambool had industry turnover across all operators being up 17 per cent (Tuesday) and 15 per cent (Wednesday).

“Unfortunately on the third day (Thursday), we had a full day outage and that actually led to industry turnover being down 6 per cent.

“When Betfair was down, the industry as a whole suffered.

Yawn.

PR from the head of the Jamie Packer Betfair talking about the joint venture between Packer and RVL.

Do you always post propaganda as fact?

The industry is in an "irredeemable mess" is it? Can you expand on this because I cannot see any crisis - just whingers on social media - see plenty of those.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-09, 07:59 AM
Yawn.

PR from the head of the Jamie Packer Betfair talking about the joint venture between Packer and RVL.

Do you always post propaganda as fact?

The industry is in an "irredeemable mess" is it? Can you expand on this because I cannot see any crisis - just whingers on social media - see plenty of those.

Do you always dismiss facts as propaganda?

If you can't see the crisis maybe it's a consequence of having your cranium stuck up your cloaca.

When Flemington beats Randwick by a race average of over 22% that's quite a yawning chasm.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Aug-09, 08:08 AM
Do you always dismiss facts as propaganda?

If you can't see the crisis maybe it's a consequence of having your cranium stuck up your cloaca.

When Flemington beats Randwick by a race average of over 22% that's quite a yawning chasm.


What are the specifics of the crisis please? If you refuse to answer this then I will just dismiss your words as yet another exaggeration on social media.

And where are you getting your Betfair stats from? I cannot seem to be able to get historical data to check your figures.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-09, 08:24 AM
What are the specifics of the crisis please? If you refuse to answer this then I will just dismiss your words as yet another exaggeration on social media.

And where are you getting your Betfair stats from? I cannot seem to be able to get historical data to check your figures.
You saw that AFR chart which was probably based on the Fact Book.


If you can't find the Betfair data, then go bother Betfair.

For some reason a number of people here prefer to disrupt me rather than make basic searches.

When I publish a link they ignore it.

When I don't they seize on that as an opportunity to challenge my credibility.

https://www.betfair.com.au/racing

https://www.betfair.com.au/racing/results/08-08-2015

https://www.betfair.com.au/racing/thoroughbreds/flemington/race-9/27505180/view/2.101274038
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-12, 05:23 PM
Guess what?.

On a mere midweek we have race averages:

$139,442 Canterbury
$163,357 Sandown

+17% Sandown

Once more the Vic meeting had an extra race.

But again tore strips off V'landys land.


Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: ratsack on 2015-Aug-12, 07:38 PM
Guess what?.

On a mere midweek we have race averages:

$139,442 Canterbury
$163,357 Sandown

+17% Sandown

Once more the Vic meeting had an extra race.

But again tore strips off V'landys land.




how much of that money (vic)  is overseas money AND if so how much do they make out of it ?

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Aug-13, 12:30 AM
how much of that money (vic)  is overseas money AND if so how much do they make out of it ?


  emthup
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-13, 06:18 AM
how much of that money (vic)  is overseas money AND if so how much do they make out of it ?


how much of that money (nsw)  is overseas money AND if so how much do they make out of it ?
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Aug-13, 11:56 AM
how much of that money (nsw)  is overseas money AND if so how much do they make out of it ?

That obfuscates ratsack's point that because of the overseas money comparative figures are unreliable.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-13, 12:11 PM
That obfuscates ratsack's point that because of the overseas money comparative figures are unreliable.
That obfuscates jfc's point that there is no reason for overseas money to behave any differently to Australian money regarding NSW vs Vic.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Aug-13, 03:19 PM
That obfuscates jfc's point that there is no reason for overseas money to behave any differently to Australian money regarding NSW vs Vic.


Aren't you constantly telling us about rebates for large overseas punters and then informing us that we are being ripped off - I've always maintained it is TABCorp shareholders being ripped off but that is the subject of another thread.

If you think large volumes are coming into the TAB pools due to rebate merchants, and you don't know if they are skewing the stats (they very well could be - a plausible scenario) then your conclusions could be wrong.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-13, 03:42 PM
Aren't you constantly telling us about rebates for large overseas punters and then informing us that we are being ripped off - I've always maintained it is TABCorp shareholders being ripped off but that is the subject of another thread.

If you think large volumes are coming into the TAB pools due to rebate merchants, and you don't know if they are skewing the stats (they very well could be - a plausible scenario) then your conclusions could be wrong.
Obfuscation indeed.

How on earth can you get this so mixed up?

i was talking about Betfair where Kickbacks are disclosed, and irrelevant to this comparison.

Why you want to drag Totes into this is incomprehensible.

But, even so, for Totes there is no difference between Kickbacks for NSW or Vic races.


Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Aug-13, 03:49 PM
Obfuscation indeed.

How on earth can you get this so mixed up?

i was talking about Betfair where Kickbacks are disclosed, and irrelevant to this comparison.

Why you want to drag Totes into this is incomprehensible.

But, even so, for Totes there is no difference between Kickbacks for NSW or Vic races.


Sorry. Too many threads crossing grey areas. Yes. I did think you were talking about TAB pools  :shy:
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-13, 03:57 PM
Sorry. Too many threads crossing grey areas. Yes. I did think you were talking about TAB pools  :shy:
OK.

Now, Kickbacks are the same for NSW and Vic on Totes.

The fact that you can get different Kickbacks in Supertab versus NSW TAB makes no difference to the above.
 
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-26, 06:43 PM
Wonder what the Australian implications might be.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNUHnJiUkAEGmzG.jpg)

https://twitter.com/TheBigSwan/status/636423292576894977/photo/1
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2015-Aug-27, 12:00 AM


The sense of amusement is hardly warranted when local money lost is being sent overseas -- all with the encouragement of local levies and  TAB takeouts.

Imagine if HK ever decided to let Betfair run in open international company from a HK base.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Aug-29, 05:39 PM
Further to comparing race average Betfair Markets for Saturday Sydney versus Melbourne.

August Saturdays:

Melbourne vs Sydney:

+5%
+22%
+25%
+30%
+48%

+27% Average

With the extra Melbourne race:

+42% overall!

August 2014 figures were similar.

This highlights a serious problem for Sydney.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Sep-02, 08:55 AM
Wonder why the authorities didn't ban the launderers?

Wonder why they don't see the available Betfair forensics as a great way of tracking down launderer connections?

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/betfair-used-by-gangland-figure-horty-mokbel-for-money-laundering-20150901-gjcpul.html?utm_campaign=echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1441139223
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Sep-02, 09:18 AM
Wonder why the authorities didn't ban the launderers?

Wonder why they don't see the available Betfair forensics as a great way of tracking down launderer connections?

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/betfair-used-by-gangland-figure-horty-mokbel-for-money-laundering-20150901-gjcpul.html?utm_campaign=echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1441139223


I think the authors of that article, and the sub-editor have never been to a racetrack in their life. You'd think someone writing an article like that would know the difference between Cranbourne race track and Cranbourne trotting track.

"The images of Sequenzia at Cranbourne show him freely associating with others trackside and in what appears to be an owners area, and gambling at on-course betting machines."

  :lol:



Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: sobig on 2015-Sep-02, 12:00 PM
PP

Cranbourne trotting track is inside the race track
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Sep-02, 06:23 PM
PP

Cranbourne trotting track is inside the race track

Fair enough. But mate. Did you read the article?

The guy in question, we are told at the start of the article, owns a pacer Fake Smile. As jfc says, he is not banned.

But we get "revelations" like this:

Pictures have emerged of Sequenzia at Cranbourne on August 25, watching his horse Fake Smile win – the fifth win in five starts for the horse.

There are pictures taken by the "scoops" sent to Cranbourne of him:

i) Watching the horses parade and
ii) Walking out of the TAB area

So the guy is going to Cranbourne trots, quite legally, to watch his horse run and have a bet.

The picture of him emerging from the betting area looks suspiciously like it is taken by a hidden camera.

And the language....

"in what appears to be an owners area...". Has the reporter been locked up in a monastery for the last 25 years?

I found it hilarious for it's naivety   :lol:

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2015-Sep-08, 03:24 AM


TAB punters want a fair bet -- and any Betfair will do

Whatever social harm may be done by online gambling, betting on the races is hardly the main problem.

A problem in Australia is that too much social waste is Associated With too much racing.

Whatever the following inquiry finds, let us hope that we can still find a Betfair somewhere on line in due course.



Former NSW premier Barry O'Farrell will head a federal government-backed review of offshore online wagering sites operating illegally on Australian sports.

 



Social services minister Scott Morrison announced the initiative on Monday and follows a pre-election pledge from Tony Abbott to tighten the regulation of online betting.

There are nearly 30 wagering firms operating legally in Australia however Mr Morrison is concerned about the leakage of funds away from Australia to firms operating without approval or paying taxes or product fees.

"Almost 60 per cent of the $1.6 billion online gambling industry is going offshore to more than 2000 sites beyond the control of Australian regulators," Mr Morrison said at a media conference in Canberra.

"For the vast majority of Australians having a punt is part of a recreational pass time for many generations and it's part of who we are."

Terms of reference for the review will include the economic impacts of illegal sites on legal Australian businesses and international measures with representatives from the racing industry, professional sports, wagering organisations and state and territory governments to be consulted.

Racing Australia chief executive Peter McGuaran welcomed the review.

"The thoroughbred racing industry strongly supports the Government's action in the face of a rapidly changing and evolving on-line landscape," McGuaran said in a statement.

"If left unchecked, racing authorities believe that the integrity of Australian racing and sports is at considerable risk."

Recommendations will be given to the federal government by December 18.



[ PS do not own any part of a racehorse lest one becomes a licensed person and says the wrong thing or not the right thing!]
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: whispering on 2015-Sep-08, 08:19 AM
PP he is one person mentioned more  than once in the sam k et al enquiries.


I think someone who doesnt know that cranny race course is a multi purpose venue is a little less knowledgable than the writer.

Anyway racing journos are uselsss, it always takes a crime writer to figure these things out. The tele cannot write anything negative and smh is virtually the same crap.

When you have people like pete defend bz for deliberately misleading the public...

More money goes to asian exchanges than all other platforms combined.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Sep-08, 10:32 AM
PP he is one person mentioned more  than once in the sam k et al enquiries.


I think someone who doesnt know that cranny race course is a multi purpose venue is a little less knowledgable than the writer.

Anyway racing journos are uselsss, it always takes a crime writer to figure these things out. The tele cannot write anything negative and smh is virtually the same crap.

When you have people like pete defend bz for deliberately misleading the public...

More money goes to asian exchanges than all other platforms combined.

I accept you Victorian's have superior knowledge of their track structures  ;)

And the guy in question may very well be "well connected".

But my criticism is limited to the journalism and the so called "investigative journalism" displayed here. Looks like they have sent a reporter or reporters out to Cranny who have no idea what they are reporting on.

There is a trend in journalism that seems to say "because we are conducting investigative journalism we are not bound to the normal rules of privacy and decency that would be usually afforded to individuals not found guilty of any particular crime. Furthermore we reserve the right to imply that these individuals are guilty, and to publish illegally obtained information without having to reveal our sources, even if we committed a criminal act in paying for this information".

Nothing has been learnt from the News Of The World Scandal by Australian journalists regarding ethics. All that has been learnt is how not to get caught.

I see a hidden camera used on some guy out at Cranbourne trots watching his horse and maybe having a bet on it. I do not see anything else, and that includes the inferences made by the crappy journalism displayed in that article. Has your newspaper got any real evidence? Then put up or shut up.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Manetalk on 2015-Sep-20, 06:18 PM
Fair enough. But mate. Did you read the article?

The guy in question, we are told at the start of the article, owns a pacer Fake Smile. As jfc says, he is not banned.

But we get "revelations" like this:

Pictures have emerged of Sequenzia at Cranbourne on August 25, watching his horse Fake Smile win – the fifth win in five starts for the horse.

There are pictures taken by the "scoops" sent to Cranbourne of him:

i) Watching the horses parade and
ii) Walking out of the TAB area

So the guy is going to Cranbourne trots, quite legally, to watch his horse run and have a bet.

The picture of him emerging from the betting area looks suspiciously like it is taken by a hidden camera.

And the language....

"in what appears to be an owners area...". Has the reporter been locked up in a monastery for the last 25 years?

I found it hilarious for it's naivety    :lol:  


Another typically fine example of so-called investigation journalist Nick McKenzie's absolute crap. His nonsense stories are always full of "alleged" , "it is believed", etc to circumnavigate the defamation laws. This goose is the same bloke who keeps having a go at blokes like Gatto, Madaferri, The Sequenzia & The Mokbels. Methinks he's a likely candidate to end up as Luca Brasi did - swimming with the fishes.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Nov-03, 06:51 AM
Betfair seems to be pulling out all stops to be even more incompetent.

For Fleminton it can't be bothered entering day old scratchings.

And for its Quinella the raging favourite is Odds On Any Other!

Trouble is very few people actually play that, so revenue just goes down the tube.

Years ago I tried explaing to them they should add in more Combinations that people would be interested backing , but that was about as successful as trying to reason with PP7.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Nov-03, 07:12 AM
Years ago I tried explaing to them they should add in more Combinations that people would be interested backing , but that was about as successful as trying to reason with PP7.

I'm a very reasonable person jfc. You can always use logic and reason with me, and I will respond with logic and reason  :biggrin:

Happy 200th birthday to George Boole yesterday  :cake:
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2015-Nov-03, 07:13 AM
What a fascinating effort from RWW's BFF!

How is it that no one from the brain tank has suggested checking out Sertorious on Betfair?

And noted that $460 was once bountifully available at Betfair.

http://ausrace.com/pipermail/ausrace/2015-November/035350.html
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2016-May-16, 08:55 AM
Betfair's dream start in the USA.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/betfair-welcome-to-my-nightmare/
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: fours on 2016-May-16, 01:58 PM
jfc,

Can't see the defamation there!

 It's what good big  business does to little business after all! Step 1 remove the annoying competition by taking on board losses which you can sit throught but they cant. Step 2 if this fails take them over to remove them. Step 3 Once removed UP UP UP the margins go.

SOP and hardly defamatory.

Virgin's various businesses,... and the copy cats Woolworths and Coles, prey on such high margin business in turn by attacking the well established high margin businesses by undercutting them. Again SOP

Yes there are regulations by govts to keep these big boys in check.... and these do result in prosecutions from time to time... angels they aint but defamed... hardly! In fact one could say they were defamed if it was alleged they did not try anything like this!

Fours

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: fours on 2016-May-16, 02:09 PM
« 2015-Aug-06, 02:00 PM Reply #24 » Quote from: PoisonPen7 on 2015-Jul-14, 09:47  AM


Jamie Packer's Betfair and Crown are currently trying to steal wagering revenue off their competitors and I think their tactic is to suffer a little short term pain with the vision thing while they run the smaller corporates out of business.

Wonder how defamation lawyers would view such an accusation?

Sorry jfc - software took me to the bottom of page 1 of this thread rather than to the end of the thread....

Fours
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2016-May-16, 04:22 PM
"Steal" suggests something illegal.

Very easy to build a defamation ploy around that alone.

Remember Mair's defamation issues with V'landys.

I saw nothing at all defamatory in his posts but that didn't deter V'landys  in his deranged vendetta.
.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2016-May-16, 10:47 PM
"Steal" suggests something illegal.

Very easy to build a defamation ploy around that alone.

Remember Mair's defamation issues with V'landys.

I saw nothing at all defamatory in his posts but that didn't deter V'landys  in his deranged vendetta.
.

If you parse the sentence and take the word "steal" in isolation it does.

In the context of the whole sentence, it means that they are trying to win market share legally.

But I suppose you have to be careful in this day and age. We live in the Age Of Sentence Parsing.

Please replace the word steal with the word win in this sentence.

Jamie Packer's Betfair and Crown are currently trying to steal win wagering revenue off their competitors

There. Ya happy now.  :censored:  me. If it isn't abusive and threatening PM's I'm getting from 3 forum "sickos" several times a week, it is people constantly whinging about Qld racing or people telling you that you are posting defamatory stuff.

Does anyone posting here actually find the forum and/or racing a positive experience any more?  :wacko:
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: nemisis on 2016-May-17, 06:15 PM
If you parse the sentence and take the word "steal" in isolation it does.

In the context of the whole sentence, it means that they are trying to win market share legally.

But I suppose you have to be careful in this day and age. We live in the Age Of Sentence Parsing.

Please replace the word steal with the word win in this sentence.

Jamie Packer's Betfair and Crown are currently trying to steal win wagering revenue off their competitors

There. Ya happy now.  :censored:  me. If it isn't abusive and threatening PM's I'm getting from 3 forum "sickos" several times a week, it is people constantly whinging about Qld racing or people telling you that you are posting defamatory stuff.

Does anyone posting here actually find the forum and/or racing a positive experience any more?  :wacko:
                  There's always something positive here PP7.
                Having a whinge is what people do on forums from time to time, I've spotted plenty of yours.

                 You just need a good winner so I'll tip you into Randwick tomorrow R3 no14 High Wind.
                It will either give you a positive experience or whatever but rest assured if it doesn't win I will lose a lot more than you. :)

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2016-May-17, 06:54 PM
If you parse the sentence and take the word "steal" in isolation it does.

In the context of the whole sentence, it means that they are trying to win market share legally.

But I suppose you have to be careful in this day and age. We live in the Age Of Sentence Parsing.

Please replace the word steal with the word win in this sentence.

Jamie Packer's Betfair and Crown are currently trying to steal win wagering revenue off their competitors

There. Ya happy now.  :censored:  me. If it isn't abusive and threatening PM's I'm getting from 3 forum "sickos" several times a week, it is people constantly whinging about Qld racing or people telling you that you are posting defamatory stuff.

Does anyone posting here actually find the forum and/or racing a positive experience any more?  :wacko:
Replace "steal" with "win" and the sentence becomes inconsequential.

Every wagering outfit is trying to improve market share.

Who needs to read that!

"Steal" was clearly intended to suggest some impropriety by Crown and Betfair.

But there is no evidence that they are doing anything wrong. Or acting worse than their rivals.

The Corporates are clearly growing market share. Therefore Tabcorp and UBET are losing. No matter how they try to spin their figures.

It's hardly a revelation but TAH and TTS have only themselves to blame.

They hiked rakes. Allowing their competitors even more scope to undercut them.


Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2016-May-28, 09:46 AM
Despite the headline this article is really about a Betfair problem.

Like every other moronic outfit in this caper Betfair lets a handful of privileged perps stitch the game up so no one else can get a look in.

And it keeps getting worse.

It is very easy to stop.

Betfair facilitates invisible bet and has an insane minimum Lay risk of up to $5,000.

Perfect for manipulators.

Annoying for everyone else.

http://www.vocativ.com/322970/the-worst-of-wall-street-is-taking-over-sports-betting/
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2016-Jul-30, 05:42 PM
As local Betfair liquidity gets even more insipid, the NY Times covers Betfair's entry into the USA.

Seem to be plenty of V'landys impersonators over there.

Can't have any progress because of risks to integrity?

Tell it to the Marines!


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/30/sports/horse-racing/betfair-exchange-wagering-gambling-horse-racing.html
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2016-Jul-30, 08:40 PM


A post on another thread is relevant here.

I believe I am blatantly in agreement with 'jfc'.

Corporates have two tactical advantages.

First, any sensible 'win' and 'place' punter can usually get a marginally better price from a corporate -- and that 'free ride' means that TABs do not get the bet (and the takeout).

Second, corporates can screen out those punters that have the temerity to win regularly -- winning bets placed with a corporate is seen as causing an unfair reduction of their profitability.

Tabcorp and TABs generally are on the ropes for basic W&P betting business -- so their defences include rebates to the professional punters which further disadvantages the ordinary modest TAB punters which are the source of the money in the pools to be knocked off.

Even worse, corporates are so shielded by rapacious TAB take-outs from exotic bets, that they are able to take these bets -- paying TAB dividends -- with the alacrity of a protected return.

Racing administrators who thought their best protection was to tax Betfair on turnover, and not gross profit, made a very serious mistake -- and then compounded it by abusing their monopoly pricing position to screw the very punters that put the money in the tin for everyone.

As is, racing gambling is a dirty-pool game rigged against modest punters -- but, as the high-court says, betting is not compulsory so the dirty game goes on.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2016-Sep-07, 05:13 PM
Betfair dumping the Cloaca State.

Couldn't happen to a more deserving Gaming Commission!



http://calvinayre.com/2016/06/01/business/northern-territory-legislation-lures-betfair/
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2017-Oct-21, 01:19 PM
The Betfair Market Activity on Johann Vermeer seems more in keeping with Brett Whitely on a bender!

Trust me I've been a significant part of it.

I'm still concentrating on that Market and should comment once it's settled.

I don't recall a distortion like this since 2007, so suggest all study this while it's still alive.



https://www.betfair.com.au/exchange/horse-racing/marketactivity?id=1.135649030&selectionId=15425162

https://www.betfair.com.au/exchange/plus/horse-racing/market/1.135649030
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2017-Oct-22, 05:19 AM
Taking me a while to work through the phenomenal number of responses to this post.

Anyway, Betfair offered its first ever Top 4 Market in Australia on the Caulfield Cup.

Whereupon it appears some robot went haywire trying to Drip-Lay $5,000 on the Favourite at extravagant Odds.

For a least 30 minutes it managed to Lay $4,691.50 at $5+ for average Odds of $9.57.

Where in fact the True Odds were ~$2.14.

And managed to lose $40,198.50!

Anyone who read my initial post could have still exploited the fallout from that incident.

Never mind.

Perhaps another opportunity like this will come up in another 15 years.

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Gintara on 2017-Oct-22, 09:23 AM
More importantly I'm sure you did ok jfc?
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2019-Aug-21, 12:48 PM
Not sure if anyone can read the link below, but....

Betfair operating on HK from September!

No further details yet.

But if there aren't any sneaky commission or other stunts this could be huge!

Especially if they offer Quinellas and Duets. Fat chance.

https://www.betfair.com.au/hub/sha-tin-races/?utm_source=sf&utm_medium=edm&utm_campaign=racing_insights&utm_term=newsletter&utm_content=hongkong_hub
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2019-Aug-22, 08:42 AM
6% Rake

No HKJC approval.

Bring it on!

https://www.scmp.com/sport/racing/article/3023765/betfair-host-markets-hong-kong-racing-without-jockey-club-approval
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Gintara on 2019-Aug-22, 04:40 PM
Love it  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:   emthup
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Aug-22, 09:34 PM

Bring it on --punters should keep faith in Betfair


The prospect of Betfair offering a 6% matched bet option on HK racing will disrupt Australian racing.

The idea that the HK authorities are 'not involved' is hardly likely -- rather,  they will be accepting and watching.

..........long term HK racing has the brightest future -- Europe is in the doldrums and in Australia administrators have lost the plot with contrived inflated fields and rorting takeouts..............  China is still to play a hand.

Circa 2000, Betfair won a UK award for the best new business established.

It promised a fair go for punters -- no bet for unless matched with a bet against.

It was a powerful force for integrity -- alerting stewards to irregularities.

It was a protector of the public interest -- only race meetings that paid-their-way would survive.

Circa 2006, Australian racing administrators wet themselves, put on tantrums and, wrongly, declared Betfair would destroy racing  -- it would only 'destroy' the rubbish racing that should not be run at public expense.

RVL had the balls to tax 'gross profit' until a little general dictated a 'tax on turnover' model to effectively outlaw Betfair.


..... the wheel of fortune is turning........... unless Betfair Australia is precluded from 6% racing on offshore events.


Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Gintara on 2019-Aug-23, 09:53 AM

Bring it on --punters should keep faith in Betfair


The prospect of Betfair offering a 6% matched bet option on HK racing will disrupt Australian racing.



Why will it disrupt Australian racing? Traditionally it's raced on Wednesday nights & Sundays twilights (Aus time) so it dovetails in perfect for those who want to do the work on the form.

Having BF now fielding is  :icecream:
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: fours on 2019-Aug-23, 10:26 AM
Hmmmm,

Might be a while BUT Hong Kong becoming China and no horse race betting allowed in China....

Fours
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Aug-26, 08:18 PM

HK racing .............. Wednesday and Sunday nights .....  very appealing time slots

The 'night' light has still to shine in the bunkers of Australian racing administrators -- possibly bar the O'Valley of Tears team hankering for a Cox Plate at night.

Most punters would love to be free on Saturdays  --  families need dads and grands to do things on Saturdays.

Once Betfair gets a first-mover advantage on 'nights' in HongKong it will be more difficult for local racing to rely on Saturday-days to keep the faith and turnover stable.

HK racing also offers something that Australia does not -- a manageable number of contenders in the national stable.

HK racing is not without flaws -- its Valley is also more likely to be unhappy .............on Sundays there are still too many starters with no-hope cluttering up the fields.

......wait for the national administrators who will constrain the fields and widen the weights......... not quite roulette racing perhaps but  contests likely to rank with the very best, and most profitable,  racing ever put on.

...... do not wait for Australia to reclaim its deserved pole-position in the asian racing arena... no one thinks!





Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Antitab# on 2019-Aug-27, 09:54 AM
HK racing .............. Wednesday and Sunday nights .....  very appealing time slots

Most punters would love to be free on Saturdays  --  families need dads and grands to do things on Saturdays.


Pete

Hand on heart, do you really genuinely believe Australian punters dont want to bet on a Saturday afternoon?

 
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Aug-27, 12:03 PM

50+ years on -- if I did not have a bet, it was not Saturday

Of course punters want to bet on Saturday afternoons -- that's when the races are run

Old habits may die hard but they do die -- most likely when a new preference is born.

Now, the most sensible way to bet on racing is from home -- not going to the races eventually became the new habit.

Putting aside racing other than in Sydney and Melbourne on Saturdays became a new habit -- and unless RVL gets its mind into gear it will be just Sydney in Australia and the temptation of HK will loom large.

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Aug-29, 02:05 PM


Honk Honk -- clear the road for a fair bet

Betfair is making an effort to help Australian punters to be comfortable about HK racing:

https://www.betfair.com.au/hub/hong-kong-racing-expert-betting-guide/

It will take some time for Australian punters to get the hang of hong -- already Racenet and Punters.dot.com provide tips and selections  -- and Racenet has its usual form guide.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Gintara on 2019-Aug-29, 05:43 PM

Honk Honk -- clear the road for a fair bet


It will take some time for Australian punters to get the hang of hong --

  :lol:   :lol:   :lol:

Keep up Pete, the savvy Aussie's have been playing for ages  :whistle:
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Aug-29, 07:45 PM
 
'Keeping up' is what change is all about -- not least in racing

Racing across nations is run like national airlines -- every state subsidizes its own monopoly and handicaps the rest.

Change comes slowly --  resisted at every turn.

It will be interesting to see the local reaction to Betfair Australia operating on HK racing and taking a 6% commission on winning bets.

Bring it on.

It is now 20 years since I first suggested 'asian racing' would steal the business from Australia.

Singapore has not kept up with Hong Kong -- it is no longer a credible threat. Mainland China looms longer term.

Hong Kong is the likely thief --  with races run on turf at Shatin 

[The HK Valley is a bit like Australia's, not the happiest, more like mid-week nonsense.]

Even so the likely thief has some issues to address.

The Shatin turf track has the long-straight runs usually conducive to fair racing -- even so the fields are 'inflated' by the acceptance of long-priced runners more likely to be an impediment in cluttered fields.

All getting a chance may be democratic but product quality management is critical -- a demonstrably fair race among in-form, clearly qualified, well known contenders is the stuff of excellence.

Local Australian administrators,  not liking Betfair, will put on a tantrum, possibly becoming incontinent, in their efforts to protect their locally dictated menu of over-blown, unfairly run excesses.

.......... let freedom reign ....... that would be the catch-cry of most Australians denied the truth about local racing rorts.




Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Sep-02, 08:26 PM

Racenet  and PDC tipsters did well

................... on a quick look the Racenet  and PDC tipsters did well in terms of including winners in their top 4 selections but  Australian punters need to feel 'in control'  and access to more form guides in a, now or prospective, familiar format would be a next step.

I was away yesterday -- did the betfair market for the HK races perform well?

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2019-Sep-03, 08:55 AM
I rarely Back on Betfair but couldn't resist the $9.60 for Fast and Furious the 2nd favourite that eased out to $6.45.

Goes to show how underpatronised Betfair was on HK!

Some Win pools touched $50,000.

Place was garbage despite some big Overs available.

Betfair needs to lift its game. From my experience it seems to dream up ways of pissing up its supporters, not realising how inherently insane such a tactic is. The lukewarm turnover on HK may be a consequence of that.

https://www.tab.com.au/racing/2019-09-01/SHA-TIN/E/R/8
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Arsenal on 2019-Sep-05, 09:40 AM
BETFAIR TOLD TO STOP OPERATING ON HK RACES
Wednesday 04 September, 2019   
Betfair has been told to '"cease and desist" operating on Hong Kong racing in a strongly worded letter from the Jockey Club.

The HKJC said it was caught by surprise when the betting exchange made the announcement last month it was to start operating on Hong Kong racing.

The club said there was no consultation between the two parties and given Betfair had made its intention public without any agreement, the HKJC was also going public with a response.

"The Club takes this matter seriously as it represents a serious integrity issue and an equally serious infringement of its intellectual property rights," HKJC secretary Philana Poon said in a letter to Betfair chief executive Tim Moore-Barton.

"In addition, creating the opportunity for people to back horses to lose is against what we all believe in."

"As a matter of principle and consistency, the Club considers that Betfair ought not be permitted to exploit overseas racing where there has been no approval from the relevant overseas racing authority.

"The Club demands that Betfair immediately cease and desist from: offering, in any capacity or form, wagering via its betting exchange platform (including in-play betting) on Hong Kong racing; promoting or otherwise advertising, in any manner, wagering via its betting exchange platform (including in-play betting) on Hong Kong racing.

"As noted above your announcement that Betfair would be offering wagering on Hong Kong racing was made without any prior notice to the Club. You made the announcement via Twitter and YouTube, and we were first made aware of it by the media. On a similar basis we are making this letter public via the media to place our concerns on the public record."

The club also expressed its concerns over Betfair's parent company Crown Resorts.

"The Club is also critically concerned about the context in which Betfair's move to commence wagering on Hong Kong racing has occurred. As you will be aware, in recent days, a series of serious allegations have been published in the Australian media (and internationally) regarding apparent historical failures by Crown Resorts to oversee and manage fundamental risks to entities controlled by it," the club said.

"The allegations include, but are not limited to, allegations that Crown Resorts or its agents, affiliates or subsidiaries engaged in money-laundering; breached gambling laws; and partnered with junket operators with links to drug traffickers, money launderers, human traffickers, and organised crime groups.

"Of particular note, on 8 August 2019, the New South Wales Government's Independent Liquor & Gaming Authority announced an inquiry into a proposed sale of shares in Crown Resorts.

"In its announcement, the L&G Authority acknowledged the recent media reports, and stated that such an inquiry was necessary having regard to the primary objectives of the Casino Control Act 1992 (NSW), which include ensuring that the "management and operation of a casino remain free from criminal influence or exploitation, that gaming in a casino is conducted honestly and controlling the potential of a casino to cause harm to the public interest and to individuals and families.

"Such an inquiry into your holding company's operations within the highly regulated casino industry manifestly raises concerns over the adequacy of corporate governance measures adopted throughout the Crown Resorts group.

"Betfair's approach of commencing operating on Hong Kong racing without having secured any authority from the Club to do this has done nothing to alleviate those concerns."

ENDS

Giddy Up :beer:
 
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2019-Sep-05, 05:17 PM
Is any publicity good publicity?

Wonder why no media outlet asked Betfair to comment?



Betfair held just over A$420,000 (HK$2,218,900) on Sunday’s season opening meeting, however Jockey Club chief executive Winfried Engelbrecht-Bresges has continually emphasised it is not the loss of turnover that concerns him, but the hit to integrity that exchange betting offers.


 
https://www.scmp.com/sport/racing/article/3025638/jockey-club-orders-betfair-cease-and-desist-betting-hong-kong-racing
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Gintara on 2019-Sep-07, 01:59 PM
Whilst the add is still running at the top of BF, I can't see the markets up for HK tomorrow (yet?)  :chin:
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2019-Sep-08, 10:35 AM
Seem to be some weird Place Overs on Betfair at Sha Tin early.

I'm currently responsible for 100% of the Matches on R1 so it's easy for any of you to figure out my bets.

Still lots of apparent Place Overs for the taking.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Sep-08, 01:40 PM

The Betfair betting guide is instructive

......... looking at the betting sites, how is the 'track' disclosed as between 'turf', all-weather' and 'dirt etc -- please
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Sep-08, 09:18 PM


Australian punters will need more help to be betting on HK races

The readily available 'tips' were on the money in a sense -- we need more help to get familiar with a new venue.

It does make sense to be very wary of the top jockeys -- moira, purton, shinn, + a few et als -- not riding for fun!

It was disappointing that Racenet did not provide their usual 'top tips' and 'runner assessments' today.

                                      ...... is pressure being brought to bear with the entry of 6%-Betfair?

The form-guide Racenet does provide may also be more useful if the previous SP's of runners were disclosed routinely.

....... early in the season perhaps but there do seem to be too-many starters for a fair race ... it does not make sense to bet 'exotics' bar quadrellas ............. rather just select likely winners and hope you get a result in a multi.

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Sep-09, 08:23 PM


HK racing will not save Betfair  -- it is HK racing that needs saving

                                 ....reflecting on last night, HK racing is a mix of  'piked' in Perth and rough outcomes from 'inflated fields' in Melbourne.

Contrary to suggestions that HK racing rulers scathingly rebuked Betfair for offering HK markets  -- it is more likely that HK's racing rulers are looking to be a global player and Betfair will be an essential and welcome entrant.

..... alas it will not work out well for either unless and until HK racing stops putting land-mine runners in its races and ensures the quality of the product presented.

RVL is beyond redemption with 'Miles Going Nowhere'.

....... presently, the Texas Tavern is in Sydney ........ that's where the action is.


Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Gintara on 2019-Sep-09, 09:14 PM

Australian punters will need more help to be betting on HK races

The readily available 'tips' were on the money in a sense -- we need more help to get familiar with a new venue.

It does make sense to be very wary of the top jockeys -- moira, purton, shinn, + a few et als -- not riding for fun!

It was disappointing that Racenet did not provide their usual 'top tips' and 'runner assessments' today.

                                      ...... is pressure being brought to bear with the entry of 6%-Betfair?

The form-guide Racenet does provide may also be more useful if the previous SP's of runners were disclosed routinely.

....... early in the season perhaps but there do seem to be too-many starters for a fair race ... it does not make sense to bet 'exotics' bar quadrellas ............. rather just select likely winners and hope you get a result in a multi.

Pete - email Racenet with your suggestions as they are pretty receptive to comments.

The Betfair betting guide is instructive

......... looking at the betting sites, how is the 'track' disclosed as between 'turf', all-weather' and 'dirt etc -- please

I wish it was shown too as it's frustrating to do the form then realise it's on the all weather  :shy: The HKJC seems to be the only form guide that routinely shows it.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Sep-09, 10:07 PM


I always read Racenet -- Australia's best racinng site

............ any idea that Racenet would not monitor this 'forum' beyond belief.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Sep-09, 10:14 PM

EXCLUSIVE: David Hayes set to return to Hong Kong

............... this adds credibility to the idea that HK racing's rulers are looking to run the racing world!

Proper product quality control will see them succeed
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Oct-06, 09:34 PM


HONG KONG & BETFAIR -- have the Australian-racing minders pulled the rug?

........... the new HK season may be open but it seems that Racenet and Punters.com have got a go-slow message.

Today the 'top 4 tips' and 'summary form comments' were missing from Racenet's contribution and the 'HK preview' assessment was apparently not published on PDC.

While my affection for HK racing is waning in the light of 'inflated fields' also corrupting their races ....... it is a real pity that Australian racing administrators cannot reach an accommodation with a business model that almost guarantees integrity by ensuring that a bet 'to win' is matched by a bet 'to lay' .

.... one likely reality is that the rort-funding of far-too-much Australian racing would not endure if punters were given a fair go................ and that would be best, overall, for the Australian communiry.

One converse , of course, is that Australian racing, offering a fair-go in association with a more aggressive Betfair,  would be well placed to take pole-position globally.

First-mover advantage is a wondrous thing.





Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Oct-07, 06:31 PM


Apologies  -- I looked but did not see

......................and the 'HK preview' assessment was [apparently not] published on PDC.
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2019-Nov-05, 06:58 PM
Moving to the intended thread for Betfair issues.


My average Lay Odds next to BSP for the Cup.

Clearly something happened very, very late.

8.13 13.16 Vow And Declare
31.34 28.3 Master Of Reality
12.41 24 Prince Of Arran
14.7 16 Il Paradiso

1st 23  Vow And Declare (21) Craig Williams | Danny O'brien | 52kg 8.13 4.18 11.7-30.5%
2nd 3  Master Of Reality (1) Frankie Dettori | Joseph O'brien | 55.5kg 31.34 9.35 25.7+21.9%
3rd 12  Prince Of Arran (8) Michael Walker | Charlie Fellowes | 54kg 12.41 5.91 6.7-25.7%
4th 20  Il Paradiso (17) W M Lordan | A P O'brien | 52.5kg 14.7 6.69 19.6-25.0%
- 1  Cross Counter (5) William Buick | C Appleby | 57.5kg 9.69 5.27 15.4-37.1%
- 2  Mer De Glace (2) Damian Lane | H Shimizu | 56kg 10.68 4.29 9.8+9.0%
- 4  Mirage Dancer (13) Ben Melham | Trent Busuttin & Natalie Young | 55.5kg 8520.2640.7+108.8%
- 5  Southern France (14) Mark Zahra | Ciaron Maher & David Eustace | 55.5kg 30.599.1730+2.0%
- 6  Hunting Horn (11) J A Heffernan | A P O'brien | 55kg 68.562250.1+36.8%
- 7  Latrobe (22) James Mcdonald | Joseph O'brien | 55kg 23.321128.4-17.9%
- 8  Mustajeer (6) Damien Oliver | Kris Lees | 55kg 19.655.8515.6+26.0%
- 9  Rostropovich (12) Dwayne Dunn | D & B Hayes & T Dabernig | 55kg 5016.3652.7-5.1%
- 10  Twilight Payment (19) Hugh Bowman | Joseph O'brien | 55kg 40.0621.641.4-3.2%
- 11  Finche (4) Kerrin Mcevoy | Chris Waller | 54kg 8.393.47.7+9.0%
- 13  Raymond Tusk (3) J P Spencer | Richard Hannon Jr | 54kg 14.639.0526.3-44.4%
- 14  Downdraft (15) J Allen | Joseph O'brien | 53.5kg 25.319.229-12.7%
- 15  Magic Wand (24) Ryan Moore | A P O'brien | 53.5kg 30.212.0433.4-9.6%
- 16  Neufbosc (23) Luke Nolen | D & B Hayes & T Dabernig | 53.5kg 291.2351.380.6+261.3%
- 17  Sound (10) James Winks | Michael Moroney | 53.5kg 161.531.9966.3+143.6%
- 18  Surprise Baby (20) Jordan Childs | Paul Preusker | 53.5kg 12.934.712.5+3.4%
- 19  Constantinople (7) Joao Moreira | D & B Hayes & T Dabernig | 52.5kg 8.043.449.5-15.4%
- 21  Steel Prince (16) Brett Prebble | Anthony Freedman | 52.5kg 75.4219.6365.2+15.7%
- 22  The Chosen One (18) Tim Clark | Murray Baker & Andrew Forsman | 52kg 38.7513.0234.7+11.7%
- 24  Youngstar (9) Tommy Berry | Chris Waller | 52kg 36.813.2138.3-3.9%
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2019-Nov-06, 08:03 AM
88K Melbourne Cup Day
309K Derby Day

If Betfair excludes fiascos like the Cup BSP from its supplied data their summaries look so much more attractive.

https://promo.betfair.com/betfairsp/prices
Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2019-Nov-07, 01:42 PM
they would say that

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2019-Nov-07, 01:51 PM
The absence of a volume spike around the BSP fuels the controversy further.

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2019-Nov-09, 05:04 AM
Fascinating analysis about that BSP fiasco.

I tried following up the absence of historical data and Betfair told me it will available on the 10th!

I am more than a little sceptical about that considering other recent days look complete, and since all that data is available at the time of BSP calculation, the carrier pigeon method of migrating to history is questionable.

Title: Betfair - Quo Vadis
Post by: jfc on 2019-Nov-11, 12:05 PM
The Betfair ignoramu bullcloacated me about the historical data.

In fact the Melbourne Cup data is stored in the file dated Wednesday.

Because file dates are based on GMT (or whatever).

The strangely named MORNINGTRADEDVOL is actually greater than PPTRADEDVOL.

My bet is that BSP settlement is the difference between the two.

And the biggest values all corresponded with low prices.

So the BSP calculations appear to simply be a consequence of excess BSP bets.

Interestingly the MC Winning BSP underperformed Best Tote for at least the last 4 years!