Racehorse TALK

Thoroughbred Racing Talk => Racing Talk => Topic started by: Clibbo on 2009-Sep-25, 02:37 PM

Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Clibbo on 2009-Sep-25, 02:37 PM
I didn't know whether to post this in Jokes. Bill Waterhouse has written a book. In it he claims he has been a scapegoat.   :lol:   :lol:   :lol:   :lol:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: InTheKnow on 2009-Sep-25, 02:38 PM
well the goat bit is correct   :lol:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Authorized on 2009-Sep-25, 02:39 PM
Probably the worst book I have ever wasted my time on was, The Gambling Man.    emthdown
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Clibbo on 2009-Sep-25, 02:42 PM
well the goat bit is correct    :lol:  
Would that make him a Billy goat.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Eelsman on 2009-Sep-25, 02:53 PM
one of natures *****  :beer:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: della on 2009-Sep-25, 04:29 PM
Probably the worst book I have ever wasted my time on was, The Gambling Man.    emthdown

U serious? - I put it up there as one of the best
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: gratlog on 2009-Sep-25, 04:40 PM
I'll probably wait till it is the cheap bin to buy it , but will have a look.

"What's The Odds" is the name of it I think and due out next week here

I'm reading Dan Brown's new book at the moment   emthup
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Clibbo on 2009-Sep-27, 02:32 PM
Big Bill reckons the late Kerry Packer owed him a million in unpaid gambling debts relating to S.P. bets in the late '70's.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Authorized on 2009-Sep-27, 02:35 PM
How much do publishers pay for papers to run these things ?
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: dubbledee on 2009-Sep-28, 07:31 PM
Bill will be doing a gig on 7:30 Report, tonight.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: westie on 2009-Sep-28, 07:50 PM
On now.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: JWesleyHarding on 2009-Sep-28, 08:22 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but that's a position in which I'm relaxed and comfortable.

I like the bloke.

I've done work for him.

I reckon he's a fair dinkum bloke.

I still am amazed at how he used to puff on a cigarette, stub it out, put in a koolmint, take the tickets from his man, wind out the favourite, write betting tickets at the speed of light, calculate whilst doing so, spin back the price, take bets from all those proferring money at the wound-out odds, give back the tickets, and then draw another cigarette waiting for the next challenge.

He is an Australian icon.

Pygmies might not agree.


   
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: triple7 on 2009-Sep-28, 08:27 PM
And pigs might fly.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: JWesleyHarding on 2009-Sep-28, 08:44 PM
I made a number of statements there.

With which one don't you agree?

That I'm in the minority?

That I like the bloke?

That I worked for him?

That I reckon he's fair dinkum?

That he didn't do as I said?

That he's an icon?

That pygmies wouldn't agree?

Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: ledgerr77 on 2009-Sep-28, 10:38 PM
Great to see a racing man conduct the interview...it was quiet electric.....the human mind at work what a fascinating character Bill is......the richness of racing is a combination of the horse and the person....somehow Singapore racing/Betfair/Moonee Valley fireworks ...our new future is a sad outcome to the once sport of kings.................i look back with wonder
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2009-Sep-29, 06:56 AM
Providing bordellos for politicians is a tremendous way of damaging society, and failure to bring the perp to justice should be condemned. Yet we still have to endure  reality-deprived fawning devotion to Kerry Packer.


So WSW's contrarian assessment of Saint Goanna is a very welcome rarity.

Furthermore corrupt regulators such as the beneficiaries of Packer's hospitality get off on finding scapegoats because it helps to shift the focus away from the actual criminals.

I don't know how any objective informed person could fail to see that WSW was indeed a scapegoat - the victim of a trumped-up charge. Prior knowledge of scams is a regular occurrence on racetracks - yet this was the only time that custom was policed.

I suspect WSW has significantly more honesty and integrity than some of his powerful detractors.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: dubbledee on 2009-Sep-29, 07:31 AM
He didn't come over to me as someone whose testimony I would accept. :no:

For those interested, an extended version of the interview can be watched on the ABC TV website.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2009-Sep-29, 08:13 AM
According to Kerry the extended version should become available today.

Currently it's absent.

Just the aired version.

Presumably will surface at either of these links.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/features.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2009/s2698920.htm
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Clibbo on 2009-Sep-29, 09:25 AM
When I was a lad of 19 or 20 I was at the trots at Harold Park and asked Bill's runner what price Wonder Wing's started in the first. Bill said to him " tell the c--t to f--k off. I spat the dummy and my old man had to drag me away. My first impression was a lasting one.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Duke of Astor on 2009-Sep-29, 09:33 AM
I enjoyed THE Gambling Man....loved the parts about a couple of characters still around in the news..."The Sheriff"  bonking a jock's wife and the trainer from Moruya (ex jock...think rode for Tommy Smith)Chicka Pearson.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Arsenal on 2009-Sep-29, 02:12 PM
I've never met him and only know what I've read or been told about.

One guy I was friendly with  knew him in the old days and would get tips, but from memory they weren't anything exceptional.

The TV interview was interesting, Bill still has his marbles and hasn't lost his appetite to gamble.

The Gambling Man by Kevin Perkins was an enjoyable read imo although inclined to be more favourable to Bill than an outsider might have expected.

He comes across as a tough and  ruthless person  obsessed with money and winning but still a great character,although not alltogether likeable.

Bill gets a mention in George Freeman's book  about a sting at HP trots he orchestrated with Bill as the bunny.

Be interesting to see if it gets a run in Bill's book.Probably only a minor hurdle in his betting ledger.

There aren't many characters left these days .Most bookies are colourless and Bill is the last of his kind. ())=(

Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: OldLarsy on 2009-Sep-29, 02:16 PM
Where's Tommy fielding these days?
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Arsenal on 2009-Sep-29, 02:19 PM
Where's Tommy fielding these days?

Tommy who? :shy:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: OldLarsy on 2009-Sep-29, 02:35 PM
Tommy who? :shy:

Tommy Waterhouse (Robbie x Gai)  :/
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: poxdoctor on 2009-Sep-29, 02:48 PM
Where's Tommy fielding these days?

Fielding in Melbourne.

I've had a bit of luck betting with him lately.  emthup
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2009-Sep-30, 04:53 AM
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2009/s2698920.htm

Extended interview has finally allegedly surfaced.

Unfortunately turning on the volume so early would be antisocial so I still have to wait.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2009-Sep-30, 07:31 AM
Intriguingly, in the extended version, WSW denies any family involvement in illegal casinos.


This is in stark contrast to the unforgettable 1986 Four Corners episode describing RWW's illegal Kings Cross casino.

Allegedly the blackjack decks were under-represented in 5s.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/s347930.htm


The pertinent court case below contains a number of allegations denied by WSW in the current interview.


http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/act/ACTSC/1988/15.html?query=waterhouse%20and%20defamation%20and%20rigged

Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: InTheKnow on 2009-Sep-30, 09:44 AM
By Caryl Williamson
Sydney
Tuesday 29 September 2009, 7:21pm

Bill Waterhouse will step up on his bookmakers' stand at Randwick on Saturday to do what he has been doing for more than seven decades - challenge the punter to do better than him.

So far he has come out on top, apart from a couple of glitches including a million dollars he says he's still owed by Kerry Packer.

Waterhouse tells his story in "What Are The Odds" launched by his long-time friend, former NSW Premier Neville Wran, in Sydney on Tuesday.

Wran and Waterhouse studied law together at Sydney University but the lure of the track proved too great for one.

After beginning as a clerk for his father Charles in 1938, Waterhouse was a part-time bookie until the death of his brother Charles in 1954 and he quickly made the transition from barrister to bookmaker.

He has never stopped doing the form even when he and his bookmaker son Rob spent 17 years on the sidelines over the notorious Fine Cotton substitution scandal - of which Bill Waterhouse says they were scapegoats.

His form study was also responsible for the merging of two of racing's most famous families as his daughter-in-law Gai Waterhouse revealed.

"Thirty years ago I rang him to ask him to go on a new racing show," she said.

"He said `I can't but I have a son who can'."

Two years after the daughter of Australia's greatest trainer TJ Smith and Rob Waterhouse were married, the union produced a daughter Kate and a son Tom who has carried on the family business.

A former actress and now one of the country's most successful trainers, Gai Waterhouse fought her own battle to become a trainer after being knocked back because her husband was a warned-off person at the time.

The name Waterhouse is synonymous with racing and gambling and not a little controversy but Bill has no regrets.

"I have had a lovely life," he said.

"I've enjoyed it all, I love racing and it's great that we are still here."

Bill Waterhouse's book is about the rich and those he made not so rich, the honest and those not so honest.

He names them all without fear and details his unconventional marriage and the family splits that divided the bookmaking empire.

But none of those things have dampened the 87-year-old's enthusiasm or his love of the punt.

– AAP
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Clibbo on 2009-Sep-30, 11:01 AM
Fielding in Melbourne.

I've had a bit of luck betting with him lately.   emthup  
When he was in Sydney interstate ring he was good because he would bet Guaranteed starting price . If you went in a bit early you could still get better with a bit of luck.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: triple7 on 2009-Sep-30, 03:03 PM
Intriguingly, in the extended version, WSW denies any family involvement in illegal casinos.


This is in stark contrast to the unforgettable 1986 Four Corners episode describing RWW's illegal Kings Cross casino.




Of course it is. If only the walls could talk. I can't believe the fairytale free ride he has got in the media this week.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Shaftesbury on 2009-Oct-08, 09:12 PM
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200909/r443710_2145852.asx
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Arsenal on 2009-Oct-15, 08:52 PM
Waterhouse was interviewed on radio 4BC Tuesday pm by Peter Dick there's a transcript on www.justracing.com.au

A little different from the ABC with some mention of the late George Freeman who got a serve in the Gambling Man by Kevin Perkins.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: chuggers on 2009-Oct-15, 08:57 PM
Waterhouse was interviewed on radio 4BC Tuesday pm by Peter Dick there's a transcript on www.justracing.com.au

A little different from the ABC with some mention of the late George Freeman who got a serve in the Gambling Man by Kevin Perkins.

What a bundle of information that site is---pity Norton can't look--he's barred himself.
I'm sure he will find a back door to peak--in fact he has been a little quiet lately    :lol:

 :beer:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Arsenal on 2009-Oct-15, 09:08 PM
You should give him a pass conditional parole   :biggrin:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: chuggers on 2009-Oct-15, 09:17 PM
You

Yeh---I'll do that--because I'm a good fella---Norton---you are feel to peek

 :beer:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Arsenal on 2009-Oct-21, 08:05 PM
Heard the tail-end of Wayne Wilson's free kick todayon 4TAB  interviewing WSW "what a great read the book is"  Wilson's words recommending it to listeners.Freeman and Trimboli organising one goers What were the stewards doing? :rant:
How many free kicks does he get. :whistle:

Anyone pushing Roger Rogerson's book. :thumbsd:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Max Manewer on 2009-Oct-21, 08:10 PM
Anyone pushing Roger Rogerson's book.

Roger was a straight shooter, just ask Warren Lanfranchi. Oh, right..... :o  He's not talking.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: JWesleyHarding on 2009-Oct-21, 08:23 PM
Heard the tail-end of Wayne Wilson's free kick todayon 4TAB  interviewing WSW "what a great read the book is"  Wilson's words recommending it to listeners.Freeman and Trimboli organising one goers What were the stewards doing? :rant:
How many free kicks does he get. :whistle:

Anyone pushing Roger Rogerson's book. :thumbsd:

Silly post.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: dubbledee on 2009-Oct-21, 08:25 PM
Bill's got an excuse, I guess, but in discussions about his role (or lack of a role) in the Fine Cotton incident, he at first said "it was 40 years ago", then later said "almost half a century ago".  I didn't realise I was THAT old.  :lol:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Max Manewer on 2009-Oct-21, 08:27 PM
God, time flies, doesn't it ?  :)
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: dubbledee on 2009-Oct-21, 08:33 PM
It does - so there's no need to put in high-octane fuel. :no:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: ted e turner on 2009-Oct-21, 11:09 PM
more labor stupity from jwh....just put your 10 mil into labor holdings qld and see where you end up pee-wee/nut :bop: :wavecry:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2015-Feb-20, 11:29 AM
Be still my heart

FAMILY CONFIDENTIAL

The Waterhouses (REPEAT)

2pm - 2.30pm ABC Tonight
The racing industry would never have been the same without the Waterhouses whose survival against the odds, to their fourth generation of bookmaking has amazed their critics.

http://www.yourtv.com.au/guide/event.aspx?program_id=260477&event_id=66405657&region_id=73
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Red Anchor on 2015-Feb-20, 06:55 PM
Roger was a straight shooter, just ask Warren Lanfranchi. Oh, right..... :o  He's not talking.

I visited Neddy Smith in jail in 2010 and even after all this time he didn't have a bad word to say about "Roger". Interestingly, Roger doesn't have a GOOD word to say about Ned!
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: D-G on 2015-Feb-21, 10:38 AM
I visited Neddy Smith in jail in 2010 and even after all this time he didn't have a bad word to say about "Roger". Interestingly, Roger doesn't have a GOOD word to say about Ned!

Nothing unexpected there Red.

One is in jail and trying to get out, the other is out and trying to stay there.

Expected human behaviour.

I don't think you could believe a word either one says or has said, ever.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Red Anchor on 2015-Feb-21, 03:09 PM
Nothing unexpected there Red.

One is in jail and trying to get out, the other is out and trying to stay there.

Expected human behaviour.

I don't think you could believe a word either one says or has said, ever.

Well, not quite. Roger's in as well, now. But he was out at the time.   :lol:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2019-Nov-23, 06:45 AM
Legendary bookmaker Bill Waterhouse dead at 97, son Robbie confirms

Bill Waterhouse, the former barrister who became a bookmaker and broke several fearless punters, has died. He was 97.

The patriarch of a bookmaking dynasty – that has included son Robbie and grandson Tom – Bill will be indelibly linked to the Fine Cotton episode surrounding the ring-in that tainted the family name.

Robbie Waterhouse announced his father’s passing on Twitter on Friday morning.

“Very sad that we have lost my father, Bill Waterhouse. He left us peacefully with his family by his side. He was in great spirits till the end. He enjoyed a great day with all his great-grandchildren last Sunday,” Waterhouse wrote.

One of the biggest bookies to field in Australia at the height of his power, Waterhouse pioneered a family of bookmakers in Robbie — who is married to champion trainer Gai.

Robbie and grandson Tom followed Bill into the bookmaking game.

He hung up his bookies bag in 2010, and son Robbie told The Daily Telegraph his father had “become more frail over time”.

Paying tribute to his father, Robbie said Bill had lived “an extraordinary life”.

Once the biggest bookmaker in the world, the qualified barrister was a colourful racing figure, carving out his name in the bookies ring especially in the 1960s and 70s.

He was known for his boldness and willingness to go head-to-head with leviathan punters such as Ray Hopkins, ‘Hong Kong Tiger’ Frank Duval and ‘The Filipino Fireball’ Filipe Ysmael.

Losing $1 million in a day

His fearless attitude led to him losing $1 million in a single day in 1968 and he subsequently became widely regarded as the biggest gambler in the world.

Known as the ‘king of the bookies’ for his dominance of the betting ring, Waterhouse was reported to often hold more than the Totalisator during his prime.

In 1984, Waterhouse and Robbie were stripped of their bookmaking licences when the Australian Jockey Club alleged they had prior knowledge of the Fine Cotton ‘ring-in’ scandal.

Bill Waterhouse always maintained his innocence and in 2002 had his bookmaking licence reinstated in order to train his grandson Tom in the business. He retired from bookmaking in 2010 at the age of 88.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/horse-racing/legendary-bookmaker-bill-waterhouse-dead-at-97-son-robbie-confirms/

(https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/6d0f4103001ec08e199daf556498c8b2?width=650)
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Nov-23, 08:36 AM
WSW deserves a far better effort from our media, rather than merely a copy/paste from Wiki.

This famous program provides some perspective, as well as colourful memories for some of us.

Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Nov-23, 11:47 AM
Max's effort a bit better than his typical current lame ones.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/racing/bill-waterhouse-was-one-of-the-biggest-bookmakers-certainly-the-most-controversial-20191122-p53d9m.html

Not Simon Pure but a role model!

Really?

https://startsat60.com/discover/news/a-role-model-tributes-pour-in-for-legendary-bookie-bill-waterhouse
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Nov-23, 02:26 PM
Wonder why Kerry didn't raise any of the 4 Corners issues?

https://www.abc.net.au/7.30/bill-waterhouse-joins-the-730-report/2675468
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Arsenal on 2019-Nov-24, 05:22 PM
Thanks for posting  jfc very good program .......as a bonus there are  links to other interesting stories  on You tube The Gamblers  :thumbsup:

Kevin Perkins book The Gambling Man also a very good read..it was taken off the market at one stage but is or was available recently.


Giddy Up :beer:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Nov-24, 05:38 PM
Ray Thomas actually makes a bit of a effort.

As to Bill's smoking David Hickie's book Gentlemen of the turf (before the WSW chapter was later removed) claims someone made a quip about Bill's smoking, whereupon Bill immediately gave up for life.


https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/superracing/against-all-odds-bill-waterhouse-took-on-sydney-and-won-writes-ray-thomas/news-story/1a0a11b161d158e7d8e06066aebe1bad
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Bubbasmith on 2019-Nov-24, 06:00 PM
Most, if not all of those “leviathan”punters  , with the exception of Ray Hopkins, in David Hickie’s book were either stealing money or just desperate ,ill informed, big punters. ( Ysmael, The Fireman etc  ). If Waterhouse continued to accept their bets he knew they were bound to lose. Compare them to the punters such as Zeljko of today and Waterhouse would have limited their bets to a minimum or even banned them,
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Nov-26, 02:43 PM
RWW ignores Kings Cross casinos, but still an informative eulogy.


https://www.theage.com.au/sport/dad-was-of-a-time-when-racing-was-punting-and-bookies-were-rockstars-20191123-p53dfq.html
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Nov-28, 12:47 PM
Certainly sounds like the Arthur Harris in that 4 Corners episode.

Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Arsenal on 2019-Dec-01, 11:10 AM
Andrew Rule in the Herald Sun exposes the alleged activities of the late Bill Waterhouse.

Andrew Rule: Inside Bill Waterhouse’s ‘appalling’ scandals

Following the death of the “liar and cheat” Bill Waterhouse, the full stories of the bookmaker’s chequered career can now be told, writes Andrew Rule.
Andrew Rule, Sunday Herald Sun

December 1, 2019 8:00am

One of the biggest names in bookmaking Bill Waterhouse, father-in-law of horse trainer Gai, has died.

When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor in 1941 and Australia was under threat, William Stanley Waterhouse was a strapping young man whose sharp intelligence was matched only by his instinct for self-preservation. The odds that he would enlist were 1000-1 and drifting.

Bill Waterhouse came from a line of smugglers, cockfight promoters, gamblers and sly groggers. For him, dodging military service came as naturally as robbing widows and orphans. War was not for fighting, it was for black market profiteering. Patriotism was for mugs.

Waterhouse was able to claim he had to run a farm bought expressly so he could claim an occupation classified as an “essential service”. But he left nothing to chance, studying medicine (automatically exempt) then taking up law as the war ended.

Infamous bookmaker Bill Waterhouse died last week at 97.

It was an early insight into how a liar and cheat manipulated others for profit all his life.

Waterhouse practised briefly as a barrister until his older brother, Charles, died at 39, leaving a widow and four children — the ones he would later rob of their inheritance, igniting a legal fight that split the family in the 1980s.

When it came to criminal behaviour, “Big Bill” wasn’t choosy: as a bookmaker and punter he was a race fixer who paid off trainers, jockeys and nobblers; as a developer and hotelier he bribed or blackmailed police and politicians. He smuggled currency to secret offshore bank accounts, ran an illegal casino and invested in wildlife and drug smuggling.

Apart from assuming control of brother Charles’ deceased estate, he took over his bookmaker stand as well, a cash business so lucrative the young barrister didn’t return to court except as defendant or plaintiff.

Bill Waterhouse took control of his dead brother’s bookmaker stand, which kept Waterhouse from continuing his legal practice.


Waterhouse, who died last week at 97, broke many laws and most moral codes in a life on the make in a city on the take. He was involved in the three most appalling scandals in Australian racing history. The full stories can now be told, but they are not the only ones.

Bart Cummings died in 2015 hating Waterhouse. Cummings, like his contemporary T.J. “Tommy” Smith, was not naive, sentimental or overly angelic. But he couldn’t forget, let alone forgive, the “nobbling” of his great stayer Big Philou before the 1969 Melbourne Cup.


Big Philou started scouring uncontrollably less than an hour before the Cup, twisting in agony and exploding with diarrhoea. He was scratched 39 minutes before the race he could and should have won.

Cummings never forgot what happened to Big Philou.

A strapper that Cummings had recently sacked was the prime suspect. His name was Les Lewis. He had telephoned Waterhouse’s Sydney office that month, and had apparently flown to Sydney to pick up cash. He bolted to New Zealand, was extradited for questioning but refused to put himself in danger by talking. On his death bed in 1997, he confessed, no longer afraid of Waterhouse’s pet gunman, the deadly Bertie Kidd.

The nobbling of Big Philou, distressing for the horse and its connections, robbed punters of “Cups double” payouts. Big Philou had won the Caulfield Cup and had been heavily backed to win the double. Bookies stood to lose staggering sums. Waterhouse had form: he had paid two notorious “fence jumpers” to nobble favourites in Sydney for years.

The truth was never quite proven, so Waterhouse was able to stare down the accusations with the help of a few tame reporters. But Big Philou’s rider, Roy Higgins, was savage in denouncing the nobbling, pointing out that if the drug had taken effect a little later, the horse could have collapsed in the run and brought down half the field, killing horses and riders.

“You got these evil human beings out there that would do that to a dumb animal, just for an illegal dollar,” Higgins said. Whoever did it, he said, “I’d spit on him”.

But Cummings got his revenge. It was in 1974, when he was training the magnificent mare Leilani.

Waterhouse, arrogantly assuming the Big Philou outrage was history, asked Cummings for any inside information. Cummings, deadpan, assured him Leilani wasn’t fit and could not win. Waterhouse rushed to exploit the “tip”, luring a gold rush of punters to back Leilani. He filled his bag with “mug” money.

Leilani won easily. Waterhouse approached Cummings, quivering with rage and hissed: “What was that for?”

Cummings answered: “That was for Big Philou.”

Bill Waterhouse with estranged son David.

We know this is true because the bookmaker’s youngest son remembers it clearly. His name is David Waterhouse and he did not speak to his father for 27 years for good reasons.

The strongest reason of all is the unsolved torture and murder of a battling Sydney horse trainer, George Brown, in early 1984. The killers twisted Brown’s left arm until it was wrenched from its socket and the bone snapped. His right arm was shattered above the elbow with an iron bar.

Both legs were broken above the knee. Death was from a caved-in skull. Then they burned his broken body in his car beside a freeway north of Sydney. The sort of nightmare crime we associate with Mexico or Colombia.

George Brown was a former jumping jockey who loved horses. But in the new year of 1984, friends and family saw his easygoing character change. He was under pressure.
The burnt out Ford Falcon that trainer George Brown was found inside of in 1984.

Brown had been coerced into pulling the sort of “ring-ins” that would become notorious later that year. It seems he did one or two under duress then could not extricate himself.

In late March 1984, he took a slow filly named Risley to Doomben races in Brisbane. The accepted version of events is that Brown refused to go through with the
ring-in. Apart from anything else, the substitute horse he had been told to use was the wrong gender.

The plan had depended on Risley being inspected by a steward on arrival in Brisbane well before the race. But as starting time got closer the steward had still not checked Risley. Brown feared that the later the stewards saw the filly, the more likely it was they would spot the gelding saddled to run under her name.

Brown’s nerve cracked and he saddled the real Risley to run. She ran second last after being backed in from 14-1 to 4-1 at Wollongong, and from 12-1 to 8-1 at city meetings, an interstate plunge that completely ignored her weak form and was inexplicable unless the backers thought the race was fixed.

Brown returned to Sydney a frightened man. He was killed a week later.
Horse trainer George Brown.

Bill had been up to his neck in the third scandal attached to the Waterhouse name, the Fine Cotton affair of August 1984.

The scam depended on a quality galloper running in the name of the inferior Fine Cotton at Eagle Farm. The problem was that the original choice as ring-in, Dashing Solitaire, which looked like the plodder Fine Cotton, had been hurt in a paddock accident. So another horse, Bold Personality, was swung in at the last minute. It looked nothing like Fine Cotton.

This was, of course, why the people handling the horses that day were forced to dye Bold Personality in a clumsy attempt to make it look more like Fine Cotton. They knew it wouldn’t work. But when they tried to tell the scam’s Sydney backers that, they were told to shut up if they didn’t want to end up “like George Brown”.

Bold Personality (inside), racing as Fine Cotton.

The inevitable debacle led to Bill Waterhouse and his son Robbie being “warned off” indefinitely for acting with “prior knowledge” of the ring-in.

It was generous of the authorities to let them back into racing some 17 years later.

Questions over George Brown’s murder remain unanswered.

One well-informed family member maintains the actual hired “heavy” was a standover man we will call “Tongan Tommy”, helped by up to three of his countrymen.

Bill Waterhouse was a longstanding friend of the then King of Tonga, which was why he became Consul-General for the tiny island nation in the 1970s. Apart from any social cachet, this gave Waterhouse diplomatic immunity. He had consular number plates for his car and, more importantly, could use diplomat pouches on international flights.

The debacle led to Bill Waterhouse being “warned off” along with his son Robbie.

Arthur Harris, a form analyst who worked for Waterhouse for some 20 years before the 1984 scandals, knows the family as well as anyone. He points out that for a long time Bill Waterhouse used a colourful priest, Father Edward O’Dwyer, named in the Fine Cotton inquiry for placing large bets for a “friend” — meaning Waterhouse.

O’Dwyer died in 2016 and so cannot refute accusations that he exploited the former immunity of priests from Customs searches to carry huge amounts of black cash out of Australia to be banked secretly on Bill’s behalf. When the priest lost his immunity from searches, Harris says, Waterhouse switched to using Tongan diplomat pouches.

The Tongan connection had other advantages, according to sources familiar with international bird-smuggling rackets. Waterhouse sent a racing identity and convicted criminal, Gabe Hayek, to Papua New Guinea in the 1980s to obtain birds of paradise.

The live birds, according to a Queensland exotic bird breeder and a former federal police investigator, were flown to Tonga then sold on at huge profit to a Qatari oil sheik with reputedly the world’s largest collection of rare birds.

David Waterhouse (right) & brother Robbie.

David Waterhouse, Bill’s estranged son, did not speak to his father for 27 years after giving evidence against him and older brother Robbie in the Fine Cotton inquiries.

David recalls his father sending corrupt police chief Bill Allen to his illegal casino in Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, to pick up weekly cash bribes for the then premier, Neville Wran. Sometimes young David would be sent on the errand.

MORE ANDREW RULE

But he realised he was as expendable as everyone else on a trip to Tonga in 1980, when Bill asked him to “mind” an illegal marijuana crop there.

“I said to him: ‘So you’re a common criminal drug dealer’ and flew home next morning,” David Waterhouse recalled this week.

He won’t be attending his father’s funeral, which is to be held just before Christmas.

“No one loved Bill,” is David’s summary. “Good riddance.”

andrew.rule@news.com.au

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/andrew-rule/andrew-rule-inside-bill-waterhouses-appalling-scandals/news-story/fabf63cf94f235d1b9b567874884c380

Giddy Up :beer:


Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Dec-01, 12:29 PM
Fascinating!.

Chris Murphy was David's friend and once used his media programs and columns to raise awareness of WSW's peccadilloes.

Curious why he's acting like a stunned mullet, when he could now unload with impunity.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: JWesleyHarding on 2019-Dec-01, 01:03 PM
My rule of thumb over the years has been that a client or friend of Chris Murphy is, ipso facto, guilty of whatever is being charged.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Dec-01, 01:21 PM
My rule of thumb is to wait for people to die before publicly making unflattering remarks about them.

Murphy has successfully sued forums and media.



Chris Murphy: the Sydney criminal lawyer turned stockmarket punter settled with The Daily Telegraph over an inoffensive gossip column item largely written by Lachlan Johnston but carrying Stephen Mayne's by-line that compared him with his namesake who owns 2SM and used to manage INXS. Murphy has also sued an internet chatroom.

http://www.maynereport.com/articles/2009/03/10-1024-2493.html
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Dec-01, 06:32 PM
Libertarians offer their opinion.

Some interesting comments about the Huxley saga,

http://catallaxyfiles.com/2019/11/23/bill-waterhouse/
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Jeunes on 2019-Dec-01, 08:53 PM
The article in the Herald Sun will ruffle a few feathers in the Waterhouse Clan.

It is an extremely wealthy clan so not sure what their response will be as Andrew Rule did not mince words.

Interesting regarding the death of the Sydney trainer George Brown

https://www.9news.com.au/national/sydney-news-murder-race-horse-trainer-george-brown/e2db4b75-be5f-497d-bc03-e081e0424646

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/5987039/1-million-reward-for-information-on-murdered-horse-trainer-found-at-bulli-tops/
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: JWesleyHarding on 2019-Dec-01, 09:09 PM
They've obviously waited till WS died before trotting this stuff out again.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Bubbasmith on 2019-Dec-02, 09:03 AM
Dead men cannot sue, but can their surviving family ? No where in Rule’s expose did he defame any members of his surviving  family members.Surely before going to press the expose would have been run over by NewsCorp legal team.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Arsenal on 2019-Dec-02, 10:03 AM
Never heard of "Bertie Kidd" until he was mentioned in passing on the Bill Waterhouse story seems he was an admitted criminal .....also a race fixer allegedly "the instigator of the Fine Cotton " ring in ....I do remember Tom King then superintendent of HMP Woodford a near Brisbane prison reporting Gillespie visited another inmate in the chokey a few days before the ring in he was pulled up on the way home which may or may not have alerted authorities to what was in store on Saturday.

Read all about it and there's a book The Audacious Kidd.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7646213/The-untold-story-Bertie-Kidd-Australias-complete-criminal.html

Giddy Up :beer: 
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Dec-02, 10:10 AM
Andrew Rule interview re his article.

https://player.whooshkaa.com/player/playlist/show/1712?scrolling_title=true&visual=true&episode=502453
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2019-Dec-02, 12:35 PM
I always assumed the Brown murder was another prominent CRI of the time (also deceased) who had form for murder.

The associations with the Brown murder and Bill Waterhouse are vague (at best) in the article.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Dec-02, 02:59 PM
Another perspective.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/gentleman-bookmaker-brought-a-different-style-to-racing-20191127-p53ekq.html
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Bubbasmith on 2019-Dec-02, 07:45 PM
Another perspective.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/gentleman-bookmaker-brought-a-different-style-to-racing-20191127-p53ekq.html

By his daughter Louise.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Bubbasmith on 2019-Dec-02, 07:51 PM
Looks as if there are varying opinions of Bill Waterhouse amongst family members and others
Living:
Robbie               emthup            emthup            
Tom               emthup            
Louise               emthup           emthup    
John  :chin: According to WWS in his book What Are The Odds
David  emthdown  emthdown  emthdown
Martin   emthdown  emthdown
Chris Murphy  emthdown
Andrew Rule  emthdown emthdown  emthdown
Arthur Harris  emthdown emthdown emthdown
Deceased
Jack Muir emthdown
Eugene Gorman  emthdown emthdown
Neville Wran           emthup          
Lionel Murphy            emthup          
Robert Askin          emthup        
Bob Hawke           emthup        
Bart Cummings  emthdown
George Freeman  emthdown

It appears a few politicians were in Team Waterhouse :yes:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Dec-03, 09:23 AM
Never heard of "Bertie Kidd" until he was mentioned in passing on the Bill Waterhouse story seems he was an admitted criminal .....also a race fixer allegedly "the instigator of the Fine Cotton " ring in ....I do remember Tom King then superintendent of HMP Woodford a near Brisbane prison reporting Gillespie visited another inmate in the chokey a few days before the ring in he was pulled up on the way home which may or may not have alerted authorities to what was in store on Saturday.

Read all about it and there's a book The Audacious Kidd.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7646213/The-untold-story-Bertie-Kidd-Australias-complete-criminal.html

Giddy Up :beer: 

Coincidentally....

Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Dec-03, 11:20 AM
Better late than never.

Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Dec-04, 07:00 AM


Blame by rumour gets a life of its own


It is clear enough that 'no one' knows who was responsible for some racing 'events'.

However 'not knowing' has not stopped the blame being allocated to players in the public eye.

There is some truth in the maxim that all publicity is good publicity but the limit was exceeded on a few occasions when the 'racing police' were looking to bolster and bluster their dedication to 'integrity' --- dishing out discretionary penalties with alacrity to 'known offenders'.

Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Dec-04, 11:48 AM
Old story elaborating on the George Brown murder.

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/906388/racing-family-at-odds-over-brothers-amazing-claim/
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: PoisonPen7 on 2019-Dec-04, 04:11 PM
Old story elaborating on the George Brown murder.

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/906388/racing-family-at-odds-over-brothers-amazing-claim/

In 1995, when Robbie tried but failed to have his ban from race courses lifted, David had told an inquiry that his brother was the mastermind of the Fine Cotton ring-in - a claim never proved and which Robbie has always denied.

....

In the Supreme Court in Melbourne, Justice Bill Ormiston had described David as a ''devious and unreliable witness'' and ''a person whose commercial morality was of the lowest order'' in his dealings in the mid-1980s with an art dealer, Brian Pearce.

John Gillespie was the mastermind behind the Fine Cotton ring in.

And George Freeman organized for the scam to be uncovered.

The media always marry up the Risley murder and the Fine Cotton ring in but the murder happened four months before Fine Cotton came along.

There has not been any evidence ever presented (to the best of my knowledge) that the two cases were ever linked. Haitana trying to explain why he absconded when caught does not constitute evidence.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Bubbasmith on 2019-Dec-04, 05:00 PM
In 1995, when Robbie tried but failed to have his ban from race courses lifted, David had told an inquiry that his brother was the mastermind of the Fine Cotton ring-in - a claim never proved and which Robbie has always denied.

....

In the Supreme Court in Melbourne, Justice Bill Ormiston had described David as a ''devious and unreliable witness'' and ''a person whose commercial morality was of the lowest order'' in his dealings in the mid-1980s with an art dealer, Brian Pearce.

John Gillespie was the mastermind behind the Fine Cotton ring in.

And George Freeman organized for the scam to be uncovered.

The media always marry up the Risley murder and the Fine Cotton ring in but the murder happened four months before Fine Cotton came along.

There has not been any evidence ever presented (to the best of my knowledge) that the two cases were ever linked. Haitana trying to explain why he absconded when caught does not constitute evidence.

I have copies of Bill Waterhouse's  autobiography ",What Are The Odds", " The Gambling Man" , the life of Waterhouse written by Kevin Perkins and "George Freeman : An autobiography " written by Freeman in 1988 and after reading them all I am non the wiser about the money behind the ring in. Haitana and Gillespie were bit players in the saga.

There was a  theory before that George backed the second horse Harbour Gold and had his mates call out "ring In " as Fine Cotton returned to scale, but whether that is true or not it adds to the intrigue of the whole story.
It is of interest In Freeman's book there is a glowing "To Whom It May Concern " written by John Waterhouse Jnr, referring to Freeman , as a valued client, he never disputed his bets and paid his betting debts accordingly. :)
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Arsenal on 2019-Dec-05, 11:01 PM
I just finished reading What Are The Odds a very interesting story told in the first person  well worth the effort in finding a copy or possibly downloading an ebook from the local library. :thumbsup:

Wonderful memory for detail he started recording his memories in the mid 1980's the book was published in 2010 when he was in his mid /late  80's

Jack Egerton was mentioned  he helped  Bill's  companion Yoko after the divorce..... I remember Jack who rang WSW for tips telling me Water/ouse said this Water'ouse said that Jack dropped the h's was a very good judge on behalf of Jack I'll give him  :thumbsup:
Giddy Up :beer:

(https://i.postimg.cc/f3vCpjmm/chapter16-image065.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/f3vCpjmm)
The book launch photo.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Dec-12, 04:01 PM
David's house is currently listed for sale for a lazy $60 million.

I don't understand how the family can have so many assets yet still be short of the readies.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/racing/the-waterhouse-colt-who-was-cut-out-from-the-racing-clan-20101126-18amk.html
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Peter Mair on 2019-Dec-12, 09:07 PM


No backward steps for some

I have a vague memory of an astonishing story.

Someone, coming up from the harbour foreshore in Milsons point, crossed to the right-hand side of the road and parked outside the newsagent to buy a paper.

A member of the checkered-hat-gang approached the car with the intention of asking what the game was.

The inquiry being ignored, the CHG member reached in to remove the car keys.

The driver responded to this affront by winding up the window and proceeded to drive away -- alas, with the arm of the CHG enforcer trapped in the window and in considerable discomfort as the car left the kerb.

I cannot recall the outcome but hope it was proportional to one deserving of an ANZAC medal for bravery or something in the face of an 'enemy'.

I do not think it was RW that pulled this stunt.

Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: rothfire2021 on 2019-Dec-15, 08:31 AM
That 19864 corners expose is gold.....boy I always knew they were crook (I was born in '88) but since Big bill went haven't me eyes been well and truly opened to just how much worse they are than I ever tought!!

Should be locked up the mob of them #Dirthouse's
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2019-Dec-19, 06:57 PM
WSW's funeral.

Being nearby, I attended but couldn't spot anyone I knew.

"Warren Woodcock and his protégé Sean Bartholomew, a leading internet bookmaker and now managing director of Racing Odds."


That's not what my recollection and google tell me.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/racings-elite-royalty-farewell-big-bill-waterhouse/news-story/f468523439a857a22a4ccde705a141b7
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Arsenal on 2019-Dec-19, 07:17 PM

Bill Waterhouse farewelled in Sydney
Thursday 19 December, 2019
suzanne waterhouse suzanne waterhouse
Bill Waterhouse's widow Suzanne greets the King Tupou VI of Tonga at her husband's funeral service.

Tongan royalty has joined the Waterhouse clan to farewell family patriarch Bill Waterhouse at a service in Sydney.

King `Aho`eitu Tupou VI attended Thursday's service as a tribute to Waterhouse's long association with Tonga and its people.

Waterhouse, acknowledged at one time as the world's biggest bookmaker, died last month aged 97.

He was the Honorary Consul-General to Tonga for many years after establishing a relationship with the heir to the throne, King Taufa'ahau Tupou IV, when he was in law school along with best friend, the late Neville Wran.

Her was also a property developer and hotelier and after the death of his brother Charles, Waterhouse gave up the law for the track.

He fearlessly took on legendary punters with names to match - the "Filipino Fireball" Felipe Ysmael, the "Hong Kong Tiger" Frank Duval and Kerry Packer who he said defaulted on a debt of more than $1 million.

While he was a leviathan bookmaker, Bill Waterhouse became a household name with the Fine Cotton scandal.

Bill and his bookmaker son Robbie were warned off racetracks by the Australian Jockey Club, the authority at the time, for having prior knowledge of the substitution of Bold Personality for the lesser performed Fine Cotton.

The Waterhouses were reinstated in 2002 by Racing NSW with Bill retiring in 2010 after working alongside his grandson Tom and teaching him the ropes.

His colourful life included a divorce and a second marriage to the same woman, Suzanne, who survives him.

Waterhouse's son Robbie, who is married to leading trainer Gai Waterhouse, and Tom helped carry Bill from St Mary's Church with Suzanne and daughter Louise Raedler close by.

Waterhouse's granddaughter Kate and her children joined other mourners including former speaker of the House of Representatives, Bronwyn Bishop.


https://www.aapmegaform.com.au/home.aspx
AAP report

 :rip:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Arsenal on 2019-Dec-20, 08:22 AM
King of the Bookies was larger than life

MATT JONES
(https://i.postimg.cc/XZz7tTLZ/image-ashx-Bill.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XZz7tTLZ)

GOODBYE: Grandson Tom (left) and his dad Robbie Waterhouse carry the coffin after Bill’s funeral service. Pictu AAP

BILL Waterhouse, once the world’s biggest bookmaker, was farewelled by his family and the racing community yesterday after a long life full of headline moments.

More than 600 people arrived at St Mary’s Church in North Sydney to send off the man who Racing NSW chief executive Peter V’landys described as “charming and charismatic”.

Waterhouse, who saw Phar Lap race at Randwick in Sydney in 1930, died late last month at 97 after a colourful life involving many highs and lows but son Robbie said it was the perfect way to remember him.

“It was an extraordinarily good send-off,” Robbie said.

“There will be lots of discussion and stories at the reception that’s for sure.

“It is a celebration and it will be great.

“He had quite a few racing people there along with many of the leading bookmakers.

“He had people from the legal fraternity and people from the hotel industry there and people with diplomatic service there.”

Waterhouse’s early education was just up the road in the 1930s at North Sydney Boys High and while he was best remembered as a fearless bookie from the mid-1950s, he was also a lawyer, businessman and Tonga’s honorary consul-general in Australia.

Robbie once described his towering father as a man who “was overweight all his life” and would smoke up to 150 cigarettes a day while avoiding exercise.

“He gave me a great education and a wonderful childhood. He taught me how to be a good bookmaker.”

His life was filled with controversy, however, and he was banned for life in 1984 for having prior knowledge of the Fine Cotton scandal but regained his bookmakers licence in 2002 before retiring in 2010 at 88 years of age.

In his 2009 autobiography What Are The Odds?, Waterhouse wrote: “I don’t pretend to be a ‘Simon Pure’.

“I have sometimes cut corners to get what I needed, but I am certainly no crook.’’

Giddy Up :beer:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: Jeunes on 2019-Dec-24, 06:57 AM
In a lot of articles I read regarding Bill, I see no mention of the relationship between him and Gai or TJ for that matter.

Bill was a huge bookie and TJ was the champion trainer in Sydney. Their children’s marriage would have been racing’s equivalent of a royal marriage. However TJ and Bill are not naive so would be interesting to see what their relationship was like.

The fact that Gai is 65 and none of her children have followed her into training is also interesting. The Cummings training clan will be continued on with James while Hayes has his children following on.
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: 28.8 on 2019-Dec-26, 09:23 AM
World’s biggest bookmaker Bill Waterhouse beat every punter except ONE!

Legendary folklore Australian bookmakers of over 112 years are the Waterhouse Family in Sydney.
In a recent 3 generation interview the biggest of them all was old Bill Waterhouse who in the 60’s and 70’s was the world biggest bookmaker and first bookie to take a bet of $AU1 million, talked about his time as a larger than life character from the mid 50’s up to recent times.

Here are some extracts and highlights from this fascinating documentary.

Who was the best punter you dealt with Bill?

Angels (Fred Angels was a prominent race horse owner in Sydney and massive winning professional punter for many decades on Australian race tracks).


What made him different?


“He was a professional; he made his living out of punting. I think you will find Angles a top form man haven said that he was also a top horse owner and he knew how fit his horses were and he would tell his trainers when to start his horses. He didn’t want to hear from the trainer “it would win or not”

Fred Angels knew fitness

The best form guide in the World is Fitness.

Fred Angels was one of the most successful and respect professional winning punters in the history of Australia because Fred knew how fit his horses were and didn’t rely on his trainer’s advice.

Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: arthur on 2019-Dec-27, 10:24 AM
It may come as a suprise to some . .

And for that I am sorry . .

But some people, when they know that what they say is going to be reported to the general public, are inclined to tell a few 'porkies' . .

Little white ones of course  :whistle:
Title: Bill Waterhouse
Post by: jfc on 2020-Jan-10, 07:38 PM
Full video of WSW's funeral mass.