Author Topic: Deductions (Read 5587 times)

Arsenal · O.P. « 2021-Mar-05, 09:06 AM »

Never lay odds on or run up steps is a wise old racing saying one that Ken Howard's often used in the radio days ...he used it frequently ..I've now discovered another one .....never bet early before the scratching deadline...last night I had an each way bet on ASIAGO in R7 at Newcastle today it was $10 and $2.90 the place ...today it's $9 and $2.30 after 3 scratchings so the $10 is subject to deductions of 5c 4c and 6c the win and 6c 4c and 7c the place so in the event of ASIAGO winning the TAB will take 15% off the $10 I took which means the bet will return only $8.50 yet today the TAB is offering $9 fixed & $2.30 place ......one thing it shows is punters are dudded when the odds on offer after the scratchings are better than the fixed price subject to deductions ...and this is thanks to Dominic Beirnes algorythm which racing authorities adopted as a supposedly fair method of balancing the books ......under the original AJC scheme of deductions for scratchings there was no deduction for horses priced at over 16/1 and last time I looked Tattersalls Rules in the UK didn't include the punters stake being subject to deductions.......obviously the scheme is unfair without a clause that provides where the SP on offer is greater than any fixed price subject to deductions the punter is paid at the higher of the two.

That's my gripe for the day.

Giddy Up

Dave · « 2021-Mar-05, 09:36 AM **Reply #1** »

gee I think that is a little one eyed in it's interpretation of deductions, not sure I ever remember any rule where there were NO deductions for horses priced over $16......and if they did it would be built in to the prices offered anyway, i.e. with no deductions they will bet to 180/200% see any race with a lot of emergencies that are in the betting where there will be no deductions if they are scratched, the percentages are all in the bookies favor,
A couple of weeks ago I backed Andamatt at $13 with 12% deductions it was still over $11 and after scratchings it re-opened at around $4..... and I laid it at $5's...........so it does work both ways
I have always been satisfied with the deductions taken under the Beirne algorithm, I find it much fairer than the old rule and allows bookies to bet much better prices, that is fair to everyone
And I think Ken Howard had that saying arse backwards, no danger in running up steps, the danger is 10 fold in running down steps!....and I never take odds on, actually rarely even take single figures, the value is ALWAYS where 99% of punters fear to tread, horses outside the market
P.S. There was a suggestion on Racing Rant that when there are deductions the deductions should not reduce the price to below the price offered straight after the scratchings, now that seems fair on the surface but the bookies would need to trim the fat from somewhere else and I fear the punters would lose more, the answer is a pineapple(was that another Ken Howard "ism")

napes · « 2021-Mar-05, 10:05 AM **Reply #2** »

Deductions have always been face value of the ticket.

Dave · « 2021-Mar-05, 10:52 AM **Reply #3** »

less deductions???

Arsenal · « 2021-Mar-05, 08:30 PM **Reply #4** »

In the long run it didn't matter ASIAGO ran down the lane but I was wrong in stating 16/1 was the odds in pre decimal currency days it was over 12/1 where nil deductions applied at 12/1you lost 1/6 on the face value of the ticket and 1/- for the place if 3 places were payable. "Provided always the said Table of Deductions shall not be applied so as to reduce the amount payable to the backer to less than the amount ofhis investment on the winner or on any placed horse."

And the Tattersalls Rules in the UK did not apply to the stake.

When I have time I'll scan the Deductions Table and post it so you can see for yourselves.

Giddy Up

Antitab# · « 2021-Mar-06, 02:14 AM **Reply #5** »

Pretty much every word in the opening post is wrong.

It all changes due to fluctuations in price. That horse SP’d $8 so your $8.50 was slight overs.

If you’d backed the early favourite Cascadian who blew you would have taken a bad price after deductions.

It’s swings and round abouts but the deduction process evens out over time.

Arsenal · « 2021-Mar-06, 02:02 PM **Reply #6** »

Table of Deductions attached to original post sorry it's arse up but the best I could do in the time available nil over 12/1

Anti Tab doesn't know all ................. this was in the pre decimal days before corps and pre post betting ....you could get on Friday nights with some SP's and in those days most had a 20/1 limit

Giddy Up

Arsenal · « 2021-Apr-11, 11:05 AM **Reply #7** »

Another unfair result Yesty I was on Dalasan EW @9.25 the place portion but after the late scratching of Think It Over they deducted 7% with the result my 9.25 returned only 8.60 yet when they jumped Dalasan you could get 9.50 and even 8,80 on the tote was better than my 8.60.

Giddy Up

Gintara · « 2021-Apr-11, 04:09 PM **Reply #8** »

I took $3.2 yesterday Miss Canada in the next at the Sunny Coast, now copping 40c deductions so on around $1.9

Arsenal · « 2021-Apr-11, 04:25 PM **Reply #9** »

Miss Canada is very short now after all the scratchings but it should win .........I think Uncle Frank has a place chance but I'm hoping Jimbo gets the fav up
Giddy Up

napes · « 2021-Apr-12, 09:33 AM **Reply #10** »

Your deduction table says "Deductions in pounds on amount payable to backer ( ie including stake)"

The table also says you lost 9s out of your pound for an even money scratching ie 45 cents in the dollar. Sportsbet deductions for even money 40cents in the dollar.

And both are face value of the ticket ie including stake.

Deductions suck but they are a lot better than they used to be.

wily ole dog · « 2021-Apr-17, 03:05 PM **Reply #11** »

Had a double

She’s on time @ Cranbourne last night into Dr Why Another today. $22.50 x $20 for $450
Both saluted. The double after deductions was a collect of $17.77 x$20 For $355

$95 lost in dedications

The SP were $4.20 x $5 for $420

Isn’t there a corporate who pays you if they drift?

napes · « 2021-Apr-20, 09:26 AM **Reply #12** »

Only if they lose

Dave · « 2021-Apr-21, 07:18 PM **Reply #13** »

Bet365 advertises that they pay you the better price of the price you took and the SP....but that doesn't include Multi's/Doubles etc....and as Napes says, if you back a couple of winners, they will cut you off, so it is only to make the losers feel good that they got the better price

Gintara · « 2021-Apr-23, 04:18 PM **Reply #14** »

Quote from: wily ole dog on 2021-Apr-17, 03:05 PM

Had a double

She’s on time @ Cranbourne last night into Dr Why Another today. $22.50 x $20 for $450
Both saluted. The double after deductions was a collect of $17.77 x$20 For $355

$95 lost in dedications

The SP were $4.20 x $5 for $420

Isn’t there a corporate who pays you if they drift?

Was it a double or an All up Wily? B365 definitely pay the drift on All Ups & parlays.

Dave · « 2021-Apr-24, 10:25 PM **Reply #15** »

Bet365 pay the drift on allups and parlays? that's a question, not a statement.......I can only get on with Bet365 to win $10, so they would take a bet of $100 on Winx but apart from that, my bets would need to be for peanuts........they do make far more mistakes in the early markets than any other bookie, for that reason they were my fav bookie.....that's why I was banned.....but if you can still bet with them, they do give you a good deal,
surprised that that drift offer applies to multis/allups though

Arsenal · « 2021-Apr-25, 08:28 PM **Reply #16** »

Different Rules apply in the mother country Tattersalls Rules Punters Page outlines the Rules..... note no deductions on 14/1 or over and from the example quoted the punter's stake is not subject to deductions ..here it's on the face value of the ticket ..of academic interest and a contrast to what applies in OZ.

"https://www.thepunterspage.com/rule-4-betting/

Rule 4 Betting Example

Let’s say you put £10 on Savvy Punter at 5/1 for the 14.30 at Chepstow. Now, let’s say that the race had a 4/1 withdrawal. As you can see from our deduction chart above, there would be a 20p in the pound rule 4 applied to our selection, meaning we have lost 20% of value.

To work out our return, assuming Savvy Punter wins, our calculation would look as follows:

£50 x (1-(20/100)) = £50 x 0.8= £40"

Giddy Up

napes · « 2021-Apr-28, 10:32 AM **Reply #17** »

Sportsbet 15 cents on the face value equals a return of $51 as opposed to the 50 in the UK.

Swings and roundabouts.

Definately a lot better than 20 years ago when many markets were 160%, particularly in country areas, and deductions were much higher.

wily ole dog · « 2022-Feb-14, 11:04 AM **Reply #18** »

Ok, I’ve never bother to look into deductions as they are what they are but what price will i now get on OrbItal Express in the last @ Scone after securing $51 before scratchings?

ratsack · « 2022-Feb-14, 12:42 PM **Reply #19** »

$27 i think

Rad · « 2022-Feb-16, 03:39 PM **Reply #20** »

I just had an interesting couple of bets:

Yesterday, I backed both Chain and Heavenly Eagle each way in the first at Sandown. I thought both were overs and thats how it has worked out. Here are the odds that I took -

Chain $3.50 Win and $1.45 Place > Winner
Heavenly Eagle $9 Win and $2.30 Place > 2nd

I had these bets at about 11.45am when there were still 8 runners and 3 place dividends. As far as I can see, there was a scratching at 1.09 yesterday. So, I was expecting deductions on the Win portion of the bet. I was interested to see what happened with the place bets, as there is a big difference between 3 places from 8 runners and 2 places with 7 runners.

I, in fact, got paid the face original value of the bet. No adjustments.

Eventually, Chain finally paid $1.40 on the place tote and HE paid $3.30 the place. I took fixed place odds again today: Chain was available at $1.75 and HE $2.70 when I bet again before the race

It was nice to get the $3.50 the winner, but I've been dudded with the place bet on Heavenly Eagle.

Is what happened correct? It seems wrong to me. Any experts out there?

sobig · « 2022-Feb-16, 03:58 PM **Reply #21** »

As far as fixed odds place placed prior to a scratching you will still have 3 place dividends so any deductions will totally depend on the odds of the scratched runner.

All bets placed after the scratching are for 2 dividends.

Rad · « 2022-Feb-16, 04:05 PM **Reply #22** »

Quote from: sobig on 2022-Feb-16, 03:58 PM

As far as fixed odds place placed prior to a scratching you will still have 3 place dividends so any deductions will totally depend on the odds of the scratched runner.

All bets placed after the scratching are for 2 dividends.

OK. There were no deductions for win or place. Maybe my research came up with wrong time for the scratching. Thanks

montecristo · « 2022-Apr-14, 01:29 PM **Reply #23** »

Can anyone help me understand the mechanics of deductions from the bookies side of things?

I'm just wondering why in some markets you see certain runners prices drop significantly for scratchings of shorter priced runner (s), while other runners in the market seem to drift in price or don't budge at all in regards to deduction amounts.

Could this be an insight from bookmakers on where most of the money in the reformed market is sitting?