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Definition of a champion (?) - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK

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Offline westie

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O.P. « 2009-Feb-23, 01:50 PM »
Copied from MSN Site TNHRCF

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From: imaufo  (Original Message) Sent: 15/03/2002 4:49 AM
From time to time the subjct crops up...namely wether or not this or that horse has the right to be called a " champion". Often you will here the radio people talk about a particular horse...and they will inveriably end up saying something like" but the word champion is used far too loosly these days" (as if it was hardly ever used at all in days gone by, as if the word has a sacred meaning that must be whispered and not shouted. )
Usually there are arguements thrown backwards and forwards about what horse did what and when and how...half the people agreeing that the horse is indeed a champion, and the other half coming up with the " very good horse" tag.
 
So I put it to the good folks of the NHRCF...what is your definition of a CHAMPION? Can you have more than one champion going around at a time? Can a horse be called a champion before it has finished racing? Does the horse have to have a particular racing style? Do the connections have anything to do with it? ( for example, Bart Cummings might have a very good horse that is called a champion, but Old Neddy Smith down the road might have a good one but his horse is not called a champion). Does prizemoney have anything to do with it, and can horses from different eras be compared to modern day horses such as Sunline?  


Secretariat winning the 1973 Preakness Stakes

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 01:51 PM Reply #1 »
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From: imaufo Sent: 15/03/2002 4:04 PM
champion, informal champ (WINNER)
noun [C] 
someone or something, esp. a person or animal, that has beaten all other competitors in a competition 

a tennis champion
an Olympic champion
a champion tennis player/racehorse
She is the world champion for the third year in succession.
The defending champion will play his first match of the tournament tomorrow.
Who are the reigning European football champions?
champion
// noun 1. someone who holds first place in any sport, etc., having defeated all opponents. 2. anything that takes first place in competition. 3. someone who fights for or defends any person or cause: a champion of the oppressed.
--verb (t) 4. to act as champion of; defend; support.
--adjective 5.  Colloquial first-rate. [Middle English, from Latin campus field (of battle)]

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From: Kingstontown Sent: 15/03/2002 4:14 PM
A champion:
(not in order)
  • endures
  • wins at the highest level consistently
  • fights to stay in the race
  • has great heart and courage
  • brings people back to the track
  • gets people talking, debating, waxing lyrical
  • always has unbackable odds
  • stays sound
  • usually has a Cox Plate (or 2 or 3) at home on the mantlepiece
  • usually hails from a highly unfashionable gene pool!
  • always gets handed in at the yearling sales for not making reserve!
  • wins first up on dead, slow, good, whatever, anti clockwise, clockwise, any state, any continent....
  • gets into trouble in the race and still wins (KT exceptionally good at this)
  • transcends time
  • is remembered for some of the second places they ran
  • never makes excuses
  • are the best advocates for horse racing
  • is when the general public knows who you are talking about
  • occasionally take headlines away from Warnie and Carey et al

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From: marty Sent: 15/03/2002 4:33 PM
SUNLINE - not northely
 
(just shitting u all off )

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From: imaufo Sent: 15/03/2002 5:28 PM
 
A Champion does everything right in his/ her races.
A Champion is the most talked about horse on the eve of raceday.
A Champion can be backed with confidence.
A Champion wins more races than the other horses at a high level and wins more money. $$$$$$$$$$$$
A Champion has to have his/ her own strapper who achieves celebrity status (  who strapped Kingston town?)
A Champion has his/ her own jockey who becomes famous.
A Champion makes his/ her trainer famous and when introduced to people comes with the tag of being " trainer to so and so"
A Champion achieves headlines in the paper and gets the front cover of the Sportsman.
A Champion is talked about after the racing days are over and is compared to other champions.
A champions progeny is followed with interest. ( see Octagonal)

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From: NineMSN NicknameBallyview Sent: 15/03/2002 5:57 PM
CHAMPION = MIGHT AND POWER.

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From: KT2 Sent: 15/03/2002 6:18 PM
"Spider" Barker  

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From: reef_shark12 Sent: 15/03/2002 6:52 PM
My definition of a champion is summed up in one word - those from the Racenet forum will know that word I guess - let's see who comes up with it first.
 
I'll give a few clues - maybe it will make it too obvious - but here are my reasons this horse will always be my 'CHAMPION'
 
Age wouldn't weary him
 
Injury was always put aside if it came to winning a big race
 
Won races from 2 to 7 years & some by big margins, others in record times
 
Always putting in even against the odds - I love 'heart' & that he had
 
He is rarely mentioned of amongst the 'greats' - but I'd have him over those
 
Never needed a 'great' trainer to take him to the lofty heights he reached
 
An impressive looking beast, whilst quite unruly - maybe like me - hehe...
 
Kicked ass in races & now has a race named after him
 
Too east right?????? see who gets it first - I'll confirm early tomorrow.
 
I like this post - well done IMAUFO - as always - do we have the pleasure of having you in Wagga in May??????
 
Until tomorrow...
 
 
 
 
 
 

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From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 15/03/2002 7:06 PM
Manikato ?

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From: imaufo Sent: 15/03/2002 7:12 PM
Was this horse owned by the Baxters? Was he a chestnut horse?
 
Thanks reefy...Ill still be here in Honkers in May...but will catch up with you guys in June at one of the winter meetings ( now wont THAT be fun!)

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From: imaufo Sent: 15/03/2002 7:21 PM
PS...Does a Champion racehorse have to make it look easy???
 
 
ciger

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From: Stradbroke Sent: 15/03/2002 11:54 PM
In the Modern era it equates to horses that have won a minimum of 10 group 1 races.
 
It's as simple as that.

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From: FastEddy Sent: 16/03/2002 12:52 AM
Champions NOT = Might & Power & Octagonal ! Good Group 1 winners only
Champions ARE = Kingston Town , Tulloch , Phar Lap

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From: nanny! Sent: 16/03/2002 1:04 AM
A champion is a horse who wins 75% of its races and only runs a bad race if it gets struck by lightning.  At least, that is the definition many people still follow, and why some can't recognise and continually belittle the modern champions.  When Australia's most prolific trainer of horses, John Hawkes, says that racing is more competitive now than it was in the past, it's a sure sign that we need to update our definition of a champion.  I think Super Impose provides a pretty good definition (or, more correctly, example) of a modern champion.  I certainly think we need to give away strike-rate theory, and this silly obsession that a champion has to campaign year-in year-out.  Some will, some won't, and Sunline sure as hell doesn't have more ability than Let's Elope just because she's campaigned for three extra seasons.

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From: imaufo Sent: 16/03/2002 2:10 AM
dog05.jpg (11190 bytes)
 
I wonder if.....OCTAGONAL
 
IS A CHAMPION OR JUST A GOOD UN????????
 
Octagonal

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From: mightn Sent: 16/03/2002 2:45 AM
Without question Octagonal was an out and out champion 3 yr old. He was as good at that age as any that we have ever seen. Think of the horses that he beat. A champion really has to beat the best and he did. The question mark that hangs over Tie the Knots head is with the horses he has beaten to win his group ones. His list of Chipping Nortons is unbelievable BUT it is difficult to convince yourself that you are witnessing greatness. Sydney Cups????
 
Imagine what Saintly, Filante and Nothin Leica Dane would do to any three year old field we have seen since- or indeed for a long period before. The Caulfield Guineas of last year had the same sort of feel at the time but the jury is still out.
 
Octagonal also won the W.S Cox Plate the season before and the Mercedes Classic wedged in between the 3 year old triple crown. While Octagonal was winning the Canterbury Guineas against Filante, Saintly was wrecking the Australian Cup field at Flemington.
 
As we all know, Saintly then won the next Cox Plate and the Melbourne Cup (don't see that too often).
 
The tragedy is that through injury and stud duties the great ones of our time have all missed each other. If Saintly and Octagonal had have hung around long enough to meet Might and Power-  GOODNESS ME.
 
Like wise if Sunline and Might and Power had have met, then through these epic races, legends would have grown further and Firemans list of racing immortals would have been probably welcoming some new residents.
 
The point being that unfortunately champions are just as much decided by what time they are part of. Sunline could have run exactly the same race in her two Cox Plates but imagine if Might and Power had have been in her wake. She beats Diatribe by 6 lengths in the wet and people question the form- who is to say that she wouldn't have beaten Might and Power by 3 in the same race. If she had, she would be near immortal but Might and Power wasn't there- Diatribe and Referral were so ???????
 
When Octagonal was doing it as a three year old, THEY WERE THERE and he beat them and beat them and beat them. A year later (after an ordinary season- only one group one) he won the Australian Cup, Mercedes (again) and the Chipping Norton- then unfortunately the Inghams wanted a Lonhro.
 
For the time that Octagonal was around he was a champion for sure, whether he was around long enough to get membership is a big question.

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 01:53 PM Reply #2 »
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From: reef_shark12 Sent: 16/03/2002 7:55 AM
CHAMPION = MANIKATO...
 
 
Good job Hareeba
 
Fast Eddy - bad example of what a champion is or not! - but everyone is entitled to an opinion, even you, too bad yours are too closed minded.

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From: FastEddy Sent: 16/03/2002 10:30 AM
Reefy- thats right mate , they are my opinions , I rate South Sydney a CHAMPION Club , but others would disagree with that , my reasons for making the above are mine and are many and varied but really I do not put M&P and Occy into the Champion category , they were very good Group 1 horses not champions.
Its a tag that is too loosly attached to horses that really have not deserved it.
And I rate Manikato a champ too , because he was.

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From: NineMSN Nicknameracehorses1 Sent: 16/03/2002 11:20 AM
I think the little dog is a champion !

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From: NineMSN NicknameRodent™ Sent: 16/03/2002 11:26 AM
A Champion should have a good strike rate because they should be a standout in their generation. The best horse I have seen is Kingston Town. Never dodged any race...others were busy dodging him. He finished with a strike rate of 73% and considering he was a champion WFA horse, his strike rate would've been much higher had he avoided Caulfield and Melbourne Cups. Super Impose was a fantastic horse. The best 'handicapper' I have seen. Super Impose was beaten on greater than 50 occasions.....If you look at Champions like Kingston Town and Sunline or go back to Peter Pan and Tulloch, you will realise that horses that only win 1 in 3 times can't be champions. Even the grinding Northerly who is a great horse(I believe a world class horse at 2400m) has a better than 50% strike rate. Champions are to me, horses who would rate in the top 10-20 in the last 100 years, i.e we should not average a champ more often than every 5-10 years. I can think of a few better than Super Impose in his own era...Naturalism, Rough Habit and Shaftesbury Avenue. just to name a few.
 

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From: imaufo Sent: 16/03/2002 2:21 PM
Beau Zam? Better Loosen Up? Myocard?
 

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From: imaufo Sent: 16/03/2002 2:24 PM
 Bonecrusher? Dulcify??? 

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From: FastEddy Sent: 16/03/2002 8:50 PM
Me thinks it was before them , years before. LOL
Gee its times like this I  wish I  had me Millers guide with me
Peter Pan ,  sheet  I cannot think that far back without a guide to help me , 2 Eclpse stks and 2 Caulfield Cups and a Melb. Cup whoever it was , it was a very good galloper , Probably a champion of its time.

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From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 16/03/2002 9:14 PM
Poseidon

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From: NineMSN Nicknamewestie® Sent: 16/03/2002 9:29 PM
Carbine ?.

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From: imaufo Sent: 16/03/2002 10:19 PM
Peter Pan!Click For Larger image!
 

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From: Buglet Sent: 16/03/2002 10:21 PM
Shaybisc....... well she was a sweetie and very tiny too......
 

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From: pin Sent: 16/03/2002 10:52 PM
Poseidon and your right it never gets any accolades whatsoever.

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From: NineMSN NicknameLuskin_Star© Sent: 17/03/2002 5:30 PM
I believe a horse is classed as a champion when they are unbeatable.
 
I can honestly say I have only seen one horse that comes anywhere near to this, and that was Kingston Town. The other horse I would consider as champions were Phar Lap, Bernborough and Tulloch.
 
Although I must say, that horses such as Vain, Manikato and Luskin Star were unbeatable up to 1400m, with Might and Power unbeatable over distances of further than 1600m. But they all struggled at distances they were not suited at.
 
I also must add, that Sunline is very, very close to being considered a champion. Had she won the 2000 Doncaster and last years Cox Plate, then she would definately be up there with the other 4.

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 01:55 PM Reply #3 »
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From: The Jackal Sent: 18/03/2002 12:32 AM
Rising Fast
 
1954 Turnbull Stakes WFA
1954 Caulfield Stakes WFA
1954 Caulfield Cup 55.5 kilos
1954 Cox Plate WFA
1954 Mackinnon WFA
1954 Melbourne Cup 59.5 kilos
1954 Fisher Plate
10 starts  in the Spring of 54 for 8 wins 1 2nd(beaten a half head) and one 4th
 
1955 Caulfield Cup 61.5 kilos
1955 Mackinnon Stakes WFA
1955 Melbourne Cup 2nd carrying 65.5 kilos beaten 3 quarters of a length by a horse carrying 48 kilos.
 
That is a champion.
 

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From: Battler Sent: 18/03/2002 1:26 AM
Be interesting to know what Rising Fast's earnings would have been by todays standards, Im tipping over 7,000,000.....none of the Soft wins that Sunline has been given in the above wins!

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From: imaufo Sent: 18/03/2002 1:35 AM
Perhaps I had better start a new thread..." Definition of a soft win" or
 " When is a champion not a champion"?
All in all though very well thought out comments so far...a great read!

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From: imaufo Sent: 18/03/2002 3:43 PM
History of the Melbourne Cup
Some trivia...on a champion called Carbine and the Melbourne Cup trophy.

The first Melbourne Cup held in 1861 was certainly a dramatic event. According to legend, Archer the first horse to win the Melbourne Cup was reported to have walked 850 km (560 miles) from Nowra to Flemington to be a part of a race, that one day would capture the spirit of a nation.

While at the time the news of the death of the explorers Burke and Wills may have kept people away from the race, a modest crowd of four thousand watched the seventeen starters and the thrilling lead up. Before the race commenced, Twilight started early and was captured only after he had run the whole course, and tragically, two horses, Dispatch and Medora, had died after a fall.

The following year Archer raced again to win his second successive Melbourne Cup. Although it is rumoured, he again had walked from Nowra to Flemington, many people thought it was more likely that he had travelled anonymously by ship.

Despite his owner's intention to race Archer for a third Melbourne Cup, he was unable to do so because of a technical error. Archer's acceptance nomination to race failed to arrive in time because it was delayed in the post. As a result, owners scratched many horses, in a show of solidarity. This left a starting field of only seven horses that history shows was to be the smallest field of horses to race in the Melbourne Cup.

At ten years of age, Archer fell in a race and was retired to stud but his place in history was forever cemented. The first Melbourne Cup winner was immortalised in the 1984 film 'Archer'.

Evolution of the Melbourne Cup Trophy
In 1930, the champion Phar Lap won the Melbourne Cup race by three lengths. In front of a crowd of 72,358 people, Phar Lap's owner received the Melbourne Cup trophy.

However, this was not always the case because in the first Melbourne Cup in 1861, Archer's owner received £710 and a "hand-beaten gold watch" instead of the trophy we recognise today as the Melbourne Cup.

In 1996, Saintly won $1 430 000 for his owner and a gold trophy valued at $32500. His trainer and jockey received a miniature gold trophy valued at $1000 whilst the Tommy Woodcock Trophy valued at $500 was awarded to his strapper.

Every year the Melbourne Cup trophy is awarded as a prize because it is a symbol that salutes the wonderful achievement in racing by owners, trainers, jockeys and of course the great thoroughbred racehorse.

The following descriptions show how the Melbourne Cup trophy has changed its form many times over the years.


1861 A trophy was not awarded.
1865 The first year a trophy was awarded. Manufactured in England it was an elaborate silver bowl on a stand with a narrow neck reinforced with two ornate handles and topped with a horse and rider.
1867 A silver trophy from England displays "Alexander Taming the Horse", the engraved name of the winning horse and a figure of a winged female.
1876 The first gold cup trophy manufactured in Victoria. An Etruscan shape with two handles. One side depicted a picture of a horse race with the grandstand and hill of Flemington in the background. The opposite side, inscribed on a crimson enamelled garter, the words " Melbourne Cup, 1876" and the name of the winning horse.
1888 Three silver horses on a silver plated base.
1889 Controversy surrounded the silver "tea and coffee service" reputed to have been unacceptable as a trophy.


1891 A trophy measuring two feet in length and fifteen inches high of a draped figure of Victory, standing on a pedestal, holding out an olive wreath to a jockey upon his horse.
1894 From 1894 to 1898 trophies were not awarded as the economic depression engulfed the nation.
1908 Three feet long plaque of an embossed silver galloping horse, that some people thought resembled a greyhound.
1909 A silver centrepiece was awarded as a trophy.
1914 This was the last year the Melbourne Cup trophy was made in England. It had a long base with a horse on each end facing out and a chalice cup in the centre.
1915 A large rose bowl trophy that was made in Australia.
1919 The current trophy design, a handmade gold three-handled loving cup, was awarded for the first time.


Originally, the Melbourne Cup was ordered through the jeweller Drummonds and manufactured by J W Steeth & Son. The original craftsman was James Steeth and later his son Morris assumed his role. Morris Steeth taught Lucky Rocha, who in 1970 took on the responsibility to create the Cup. In 1984, the VRC placed an order for the Cup through another jeweller, Hardy Brothers, who in turn commissioned Lucky Rocha to manufacture the Cup. Each year it takes Lucky approximately eighty - one hundred hours to produce by hand the Melbourne Cup.

1922 - The Melbourne Cup trophy valued at £200.
1953 - The Melbourne Cup trophy valued at £550.
1960 - The Melbourne Cup trophy valued at £750.
1973 - The Melbourne Cup trophy valued at $3000.
1978 - The Melbourne Cup trophy valued at $9000.
1984 - The Melbourne Cup trophy valued at $23 000.
1987 - The Melbourne Cup trophy valued at $32 000.
1999 - The Melbourne Cup trophy valued at $32 500.
2000 - The Melbourne Cup trophy valued at $32 500.
2001 - The Melbourne Cup trophy valued at $60 000.



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From: Kingstontown Sent: 18/03/2002 4:47 PM
Just curious.  Has racing always adhered to zero tolerance when it comes to substance abuse and the racehorse?  I just wonder in days gone by what lotions, potions and training notions were employed.  Has the strapper always whistled in a box out the back to get the pee.  Am a bit sceptical here, one of the reasons that champs of the past and present cannot be compared I sometimes wonder.  This is a just a general thought, no finger being pointed at individuals.  What does everybody else think? 

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From: KT2 Sent: 18/03/2002 7:11 PM
It's been said that arsenic was once given in small doses to horses to improve performance. Mind you, too much and bye bye big red.
 
Maybe some old timers can confirm some of the old treatments used in the past.
 
All that said, I don't think you can credit/discredit a horses performance based on its era. If one trainer had the good oil, good luck to him. I'm sure the others had similar access to a vets brew.
 
   

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From: imaufo Sent: 19/03/2002 4:29 AM
Link to cyberhorses Octagonal ditty.
 
 
 

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From: imaufo Sent: 19/03/2002 4:31 AM
 
 
Link to a page on Phar Lap.
 
 
 

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From: Kingstontown Sent: 19/03/2002 12:28 PM
Hmmm, yes food for thought.  I am always in awe/wonder about horses like Carbine and poor little Briseis who I think dropped dead not long after impressive list of victories (probably the best advertisement for not backing them up every few days!).  Simply put, horses are just not made to race this way anymore.  What would happen if they did?  Are we too soft on the modern racehorse?  These days a prep can be three races.  Like mattgloss suggests are we too impatient for results?  Or were there very unrealistic expectations placed on horse of ye olden days, a kind of survival of the fittest?

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From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 20/03/2002 7:55 AM
Methinks perhaps we are getting a bit precious over the use of the word "champion"?
 
Seems to be some kind of thought that it be reserved for too few. After all in say athletics, every two years we have a world champsionship meeting and every gold medalist is the 'champion' of that event.
 
In racing we have the annual ratings from the handicappers. the top 2yo, 3yo, sprinter, stayer etc is crowned the 'champion' for that year. I find nothing wrong with this. They are the current champions of those groups and forever deserve to be referred to as such.
 
What i think we are looking for is something more.
 
Some want the term restricted to horses such as Carbine, Phar Lap, Kingston Town etc
I suggest these 'once-in-a-lifetime' horses be referred to as Immortals
 
Then we have the a host of memorable beasts which although not in the same category as the aforementioned would by most be termed champions. Horses which though being either so supreme in their time or having for several seasons excelled in the top echelon eg. Manikato, Vain, Peter Pan, Poseidon, Tulloch, Bernborough, Sunline, Luskin Star etc. I would refer to these as Legends
 
Finally we have many notable horses whose deeds although perhaps not quite coming up to the generally accepted 'champion' status have reached and performed most creditably at the top level in their time and maybe through injury, premature retirement to stud etc didnt go on to achieve Legend status (of which there will commonly be more than one racing at any given time, eg. Vo Rogue, Super Impose, Let's Elope, Octagonal, Saintly, Tie The Knot, Emancipation, Better Loosen Up, Bonecrusher, Schillaci, Tobin Bronze, Rubiton, Ajax etc these horses could be termed Superstars
 
I would like to see the principal clubs in association with racing's Hall of Fame formally institute a grading of our turf 'champions' into such groupings. It would provide some great publicity for the game. And much for us all to argue over!

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From: NineMSN NicknameTheFireman111x111 Sent: 20/03/2002 9:45 AM
I my mind the only horse that can be called a champion is "Secretariat". Just cant get those pics of his jock looking back under his arm and seeing the closest horse 1 furlong back, freakish.

But I am a hard marker!

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From: NineMSN NicknameRodent™ Sent: 20/03/2002 10:39 AM
I wonder if Secretariat's trainer had been on an African Safari or visited a zoo before he won the Belmont?

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From: EasyAl Sent: 20/03/2002 11:37 AM
3yo Classic Winner who can then perform at Any Track, Any State, Any Surface, Any Weight, Any Class, Any Distance, first up, second up or tenth up - Sustained for at least 3 consecutive seasons.
 
If they can do all that then they are truly worthy. - Only Kingston Town has been able to achieve all this in my time on the punt, however many Classic winners are now retired early for stud duties. I don't care if they could've, should've, would've - they didn't. Everything you read points to Phar Lap and Tulloch as fitting the champion mould.
 
If you look at these then that gives us 3 "Champions" in the last century.
 
Yes - the Champion tag is too loosely used.

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 01:57 PM Reply #4 »
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From: imaufo Sent: 20/03/2002 5:54 PM
Hareeba, that was a well thought out and very interesting post. I think that you have those horses in the correct order.
Just as a sideline...when Sunline and Tie The Knot eventually dissapear from our racetracks it will be a while before we all follow another horsesd career with quite the same interest. So just enjoy the good horses while you can. You wont make a fortune backing them but they certainly raise the interest levels.
I remember after Kingston Town was retired, it was a long long time before racing captured that same spirit. Sunline fills that place somewhat.
 
 

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From: nanny! Sent: 20/03/2002 6:06 PM
I'm actually surprised at the general level of agreement as to who the champions are, particularly in relation to Kingston Town.  This is despite the fact that he won barely a third of his races in Melbourne, had multiple failures in the Caulfield and Melbourne Cups, never raced against Dulcify or Manikato, and often beat complete walkers in Sydney; even his greatest fans would probably be struggling to name 10 runner-ups without resorting to Miller's.

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From: imaufo Sent: 20/03/2002 6:17 PM
Dont know about 10 Nanny but I do remember the day More Mink nearly arrived just in time after Malcolm Johnston rested his hands on KT to the line......

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From: Puntermatt Sent: 20/03/2002 7:00 PM
Great post Hareeba - i agree with your idea re "immortals" and have said exactly the same thing in the past.
However, you made the tragic mistake of leaving Bernborough and Tulloch out of the immortals list and putting them on the legends list. What gives???
As far as i'm concerned, the Australian Racing Hall of Fame got it right when they inducted 5 horses last year - Phar Lap, Bernborough, Tulloch, Carbine and Kingston Town. They are our only true IMMORTALS.

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From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 20/03/2002 8:15 PM
I won't argue with that Puntermatt.
 
Nanny, you can only beat what's put up against you. Have you critically examined what finished behind Carbine, Phar Lap, Tulloch and Bernborurgh in many of their wins? Or the class of those who bowled to Bradman?
 
Did you witness Kingston Town's career?
 
It was the utter ease with which he thrashed his rivals, particularly as at three year old culminating in the Sydney Cup triumph. He didn't run in the Cox Plate as three year old unfortunately, otherwise he would have won 4 on end.
 
I have been following this game for over 40 years and to my mind he is clearly the most outstanding horse I have ever seen.

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Recommend  Message 52 of 222 in Discussion 
From: smack the pony Sent: 20/03/2002 8:32 PM
Hareeba ... If you've been around for 40 years or so watching the great ones go around then you must have had blinkers on when Tulloch raced, as surely his record and performance is somewhat better than that of Kingston Town, who I also rate up there having watched his three Cox Plate victories. But and it is a big BUT, he wasn't no Tulloch, who simply was the greatest horse to race in Australia this side of the 2nd world war.

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Recommend  Message 53 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 20/03/2002 8:56 PM
Okay Smacka, you got me!
 
Perhaps I should have been a bit more precise.
 
Tulloch's career ended in the winter of 1961, the year I arrived in Australia. Sadly I missed out on what was obviously a truly magnificent epsiode in the Aussie turf.
 
So in naming Kingston Town as the best I have seen does not mean that I am rating him superior to Tulloch.
 
If you were fortunate enought to witness Tulloch's pre-illness career in particular I envy you. And the courage he demonstated in his fabulous comeback would also have been magnificent to observe.
 

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Recommend  Message 54 of 222 in Discussion 
From: nanny! Sent: 20/03/2002 9:55 PM
Hareeba, I sincerely doubt that Kingston Town would have gotten anywhere Dulcify in a Cox Plate.  This was the great luxury that Kingston Town had; to dominate racing in absence of Dulcify.  Nor do I like the argument that "you can only beat what's put up against you".  Whenever a good horse comes along, people complain that it only beat "x" or "y".  This blowtorch, however, is never applied to Kingston Town, despite the garbage that he regularly beat in Sydney, and when he went to Melbourne his record was very good, but he lost more races than he won down there, and certainly the horses who beat him never appear in anyone's list of all-time greats.  Kingston Town also never went overseas.  This was despite Tommy Smith having also boasted 20 years earlier that Tulloch was world class.  Trainers tend to place their horses where they think they are best suited.  It is very relevant who they are beating.

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Recommend  Message 55 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 20/03/2002 10:50 PM
Nanny, you didn't answer my questions. I suspect you never saw Kingston Town race.
 
I see no reason to believe that Kingston Town couldn't have beaten Dulcify in the Cox Plate. There wasn't much behind him that day. One week later Dulcify only 'fell in' to win the Mackinnon Stakes.
 
Aren't you forgetting the weights Kingston Town carried in the Cups? With a more patient ride from Cook he probably would have won the Melbourne Cup when he was beaten by a fair nag called Gurner's Lane fresh from a Caulfield Cup victory. The year before he was a sick horse when asked to run in the Melbourne Cup.
 
 

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Recommend  Message 56 of 222 in Discussion 
From: nanny! Sent: 20/03/2002 11:23 PM
I've seen plenty of footage of him, and, sure, as long as the race isn't in Melbourne, he seems to win fairly easily, but I'm always nagged by the question "What is he beating?" and no-one ever gives me a very convincing answer.
 
Dulcify might have fallen in to win the Mackinnon, but it's better than getting rolled like Kingston Town did in 1981.  The other thing I don't like about Kingston Town is that his fans always say he was so great yet you don't have to press very hard and they start making all sorts of excuses for any races that he didn't win.  It's also pretty limp to say he had too much weight in the Cups.  He carried 59 kilos in the 1982 Melbourne Cup, but that's not bad for the winner of 13 Group One races, compared to the younger Gurner's Lane, who had 56.5 as the winner of only one Group One race.  Meanwhile, yes, he did carry 60 kilos when third in the Caulfield Cup, but Ming Dynasty and Hyperno had big weights, too: 58 and 59 kilos.

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Recommend  Message 57 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 21/03/2002 7:06 AM
Nanny, have you had a similarly critical look at the horses which finished behind Phar Lap and Tulloch in many of their easy wins?
 
Also don't forget that Tulloch was beaten in a Melbourne Cup too, and Phar Lap was beaten in two of them.

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Recommend  Message 58 of 222 in Discussion 
From: wily Sent: 21/03/2002 9:34 AM
I cant believe you nanny!!!!!
 
We spent hours arguing about Super imposter and now you want to dump shit on the King?????????????????
 
You have a strange view of the world.
 
Having only seen tapes of the king as you have ,you have no ability to have a feel for the horses around at the time. Just cuz YOU dont recognise their names or ability does not mean they didnt have any.
 
Go away and come back after some research say on Belmura Lad & Lawman  as 2 examples

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Recommend  Message 59 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Kingstontown Sent: 21/03/2002 10:23 AM
Please also note that outside of his 3yo year Kingston Town had suspensory ligaments like retreads.  It is a wonder he managed to race at all.  It was also not unusual for him to be injured and out in a paddock for serious amounts of time.  He had one break I recollect of 10 months - that is a poo load of time to be out of racing and make it back to the A grade.  Cant think of anything since that has managed to do this with any real effect.  When he was three - nothing got close, he was amazing it wouldnt have mattered who had shown up........

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Recommend  Message 60 of 222 in Discussion 
From: imaufo Sent: 21/03/2002 1:36 PM
Youre right about Kingston Town..in his glory years he was more or less unbeatable. Didn't he win something like 21 races in Sydney on the trot? Forgive me if Im wrong but I remember something along those lines.
The best part of watching him race was seeing the jockey ( mainly Malcolm Johnston of course) just sitting on the black horse quietly and then , around the turn and with  perfect balance give him a little shakeup, hardly moving almost... ...the horse would explode underneath him and just put lengths on the other struggling beasts.. it was poetry in motion.  Wish I could find a picture of him somewhere.

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Recommend  Message 61 of 222 in Discussion 
From: imaufo Sent: 21/03/2002 1:44 PM
One of the more interesting aspects of Kingston Towns record was that he was able to win from 1200 to 2400 metres. His win record appears below.
 

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 01:58 PM Reply #5 »
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Recommend  Message 62 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Kingstontown Sent: 21/03/2002 1:52 PM
 
Go to the above Imaufo.  If you ask for a search on Kingston Town, there are some really excellent black and whites available of him.   Some are of his Cox Plate victories too.  Once I manage to save some wad I am gonna get me some for my bar.
 
His explosiveness was simply amazing.  I have never seen anything like it, esp in the races where he bloody had no show, would get pocketed away to buggery and still come home over the top of everything.  Mal would set him alight and drop him back 4-5 times in a race, he must have been super responsive.

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Recommend  Message 63 of 222 in Discussion 
From: imaufo Sent: 21/03/2002 2:05 PM
 
 
The above is a link to the NZ racing champions page. Phar Lap is described as being a " Campion without peer'. Horlicks, Octagonal, Might and Power...they all get a mention.
 
Sorry KT, that link doesnt seem to be working for some reason!

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Recommend  Message 64 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Kingstontown Sent: 21/03/2002 2:07 PM
Whoopsy
Try this one
 
 

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Recommend  Message 65 of 222 in Discussion 
From: imaufo Sent: 21/03/2002 2:13 PM
<INPUT style="WIDTH: 371px; HEIGHT: 242px" type=image src="http://165.69.1.89/newsphotos/images2/Thumb/09860647.jpg" size=43 border=0>
 
Just a nice picture
 
20032002   Shiela Laxton on Ethereal
 
Sheila Laxton On Ethereal
Arrowfield Stud near Scone-Past winner of the Golden Slipper stallion Flying Spur with Stallion Manager Tony Parry.pic Robert McKell 20/03/02
 
Flying Spur
 
<INPUT style="WIDTH: 201px; HEIGHT: 254px" type=image src="http://www.archive.newspix.com.au/photolib/images/Thumbs/03793/03793278.jpg" size=41 border=0>
 
Kingston Town
 
 
 
 
 

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Sent: 21/03/2002 2:25 PM
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Recommend  Message 67 of 222 in Discussion 
From: imaufo Sent: 21/03/2002 2:27 PM
 
Some Balck and whites of Kingston Town.

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Sent: 21/03/2002 2:41 PM
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Recommend  Message 69 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Kingstontown Sent: 21/03/2002 2:46 PM
Hmmm, yes still cannot watch the '82 Cup finish.....

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Recommend  Message 70 of 222 in Discussion 
From: wily Sent: 21/03/2002 4:13 PM
Woody,many people use the Syd cup as some way of ridicule of the king. I take the opposite view
 
It was to me the greatest race Ive ever seen.
It was run 20 seconds slower but I cant think of one horse or jockey of today that would have won that race.
The king made about 4 sprints. Everytime he find the lead they would try to pocket him. team riding was the only way to beat him. Can you imagine G. Boss making 4 runs in a race to hold his position and stay out of trouble? Look at the same way he rides Shogun every race regardless of circumstance. He gets off and says they went to slow. Mal made his own race.Look at cassidy on Diatribe. Could do anything but sit 4 wide. This was a great ride by mal.
 
secondly, what other horse could have won this race doing that?/
Occy was too dour and would have been too far back to run a 33 sec sectional to win, saintly wasnt durable enought , Super imposter could only make a  200m sprint once . Imagine him being buslted mid race to make  4 runs. M & P , maybe? but didnt have the explosive acceleration mid race.
 
Frankly it was one of the Kings greatest moments and showcased all of his talents

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Sent: 21/03/2002 4:36 PM
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Recommend  Message 72 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 21/03/2002 6:11 PM
Actually UFO, the King won Group races alone from 1100m to 3200m
 
How many others can boast such a winning distance range, let alone in Group races?

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Recommend  Message 73 of 222 in Discussion 
From: KT2 Sent: 21/03/2002 6:33 PM
Kingstontown, there are many great photos around that you can buy - mainly colour. Not to mention various bits of memorabilia, like the Kingston Town Story (hardback or collectors issue),  Cox Plate framed tribute etc.
 
In Sydney check the Horsemans bookshop - Kensington, or on track you can order photo's in all sizes + stubbie holders & t-shirts.
 
I know - I've collected it all over the years.  He was the greatest, but do yourself a favour & get out & see Sunline race at her next start. These horses only come along once in decades. Take yourself, your kids, your camera & be able to say you saw a Champion in the flesh.
 
 
 
.

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Recommend  Message 74 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Kingstontown Sent: 22/03/2002 10:27 AM
KT2, I have that book and love it.  Also have a couple of colour photos framed but must admit to being particularly keen on the black and white shots of his Cox Plates.  Also have the remnants of a scrapbook I made of him when I was about 12.  Of particular interest is an editorial scoffiing at the suggestion that Strawberry Road coul be mentioned in the same breath as a 3yo.
 
I flew myself to Melbourne for the day last year for the Cox Plate specifically to see Sunline in the flesh.  I have some fabulous shots of my own taking pride of place in my bar at home (have a racing theme happening).  It remains one of the most vivid and memorable days spent at a racetrack I have experienced. 

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Recommend  Message 75 of 222 in Discussion 
From: imaufo Sent: 23/03/2002 7:50 PM
 
Racing Hall Of fame.
 
Go to this site ( multimedia included) for Kingston Town, Carbine etc etc...some good videos of Kingston Town winning his Cox plates.Wow!

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Recommend  Message 76 of 222 in Discussion 
From: matttherat² Sent: 23/03/2002 10:37 PM
"She's a true champion staying mare," Seamer said. "The best 2400m mare. "She just showed she was better than them and typical of her staying prowess, the last 100 metres is where she found them out."
 
Go Ethereal - might need to give Scott a copy of the definitions, here's hoping she can go on to Europe and beat some of those hacks over there.

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 02:03 PM Reply #6 »
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Recommend  Message 77 of 222 in Discussion 
From: imaufo Sent: 24/03/2002 2:21 AM
null
 
Go Ethereal you champion/ good horse/ legend you!

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Recommend  Message 78 of 222 in Discussion 
From: matttherat² Sent: 24/03/2002 3:40 AM
Think you may have the wrong hoss here, Ima, this one's just a wannabe 2 year old at this stage - here's the real champion mare
 
 

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Recommend  Message 79 of 222 in Discussion 
From: imaufo Sent: 30/03/2002 6:16 PM
SUNLINE!

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Recommend  Message 80 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Viscount Sent: 4/04/2002 1:39 PM
OCTAGONAL(NZ)
 
Australian Horse of the Year 1995/96.
Champion Australasian 3YO top weighted on 63 kg.
Australasian Champion 2YO 1994/95 Champion performer - 10 Group One wins and over $5.89 million.
  As a Two-Year-Old all his race starts
WON AJC Sires' Produce S-G1 (1400m, Randwick).
WON STC Todman Slipper Trial-G2 (1200m, Rosehill, defeating Our Maizcay and Tuscany Flyer).
WON STC Ansett Frequent Flyer H'cp., (1100m, Rosehill).
2nd STC Golden Slipper S-G1 (1200m, Rosehill, beaten 1/2 neck by Flying Spur).
2nd AJC Champagne S-G1 (1600m, Randwick, beaten short head).

  As a Three-Year-Old all his race starts
WON AJC Australian Derby-G1 (2400m, Randwick, defeating Saintly and Filante; new race record).
WON MVRC W.S. Cox Plate-G1 (2040m, Moonee Valley, defeating Mahogany).
WON STC Rosehill Guineas-G1 (2000m, Rosehill, defeating Saintly and Nothin' Leica Dane, equal race and course record time).
WON STC Canterbury Guineas-G1 (1900m).
WON STC Mercedes Classic-G1 (2400m, Rosehill, defeating Count Chivas and Saintly).
WON AJC Stan Fox S-G3 (1400m, Randwick).
WON STC Heritage S-LR (1200m, Rosehill by 2 1/2 lens).
2nd VRC Victoria Derby-G1 (2500m, Flemington, to Nothin' Leica Dane, beaten 3/4 len).
2nd AJC Hobartville S-G2 (1400m, Warwick Farm, to Nothin' Leica Dane, beaten long head).
2nd Tattersall's Roman Consul S-G3 (1200m, Randwick, to Our Maizcay).
3rd VATC Caulfield Guineas-G1 (1600m, Caulfield).
 

  As a Four-Year-Old
WON VATC Underwood S-G1 (1800m, Caulfield).
WON STC Mercedes Classic-G1 (2400m., Rosehill).
WON VRC Australian Cup-G1 (2000m., Flemington).
WON AJC Chipping Norton S-G1 (1600m., Warwick Farm, defeating Juggler. Last 600m in 32.81 secs.).
2nd AJC Queen Elizabeth S-G1 (2000m, Randwick).
2nd AJC Apollo S-G2 (1400m., Warwick Farm ).
4th VATC Caulfield S-G1 (2000m, Caulfield).

Nuff Said

 


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Recommend  Message 81 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Puntermatt Sent: 4/04/2002 3:08 PM
Well said Viscount - Occy definitely rates above Sunline, for mine.

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Recommend  Message 82 of 222 in Discussion 
From: KT2 Sent: 6/04/2002 10:56 PM
SUNLINE
 
13 GROUP 1's         - not yet retired  
 
At Three Yrs
Won  Doncaster G 1
Won   Flight Stks  G1
Won Tea Rose Stks G2
Won  AV Kewney Stks G2
Won Furious Stks    G3
Won  MV Oaks       G3
 
At Four Yrs
Won Cox Plate  G1 
Won Coolmore Classic G1
Won All Aged Stakes  G1
2nd  Doncaster G1
2nd  George Main  G1
Won  Warwick Stks G2
Won  Breeders NZ  G2
Won  Apollo Stks   G2
 
At Five Yrs
Won Cox Plate  G1
Won Manikato  G1
Won Hong Kong Mile G1
Won Waikato  G1
Won Memsie Stks G2
Won  Freehan       G2
Won  TB Stakes NZ  G2
Won Apollo   G2
2nd  Turnbull G2
3rd  Dubai DF G2
3rd All Aged G1
 
At Six Yrs
Won Doncaster  G1
Won Coolmore   G1
Won All Aged     G1
Won  Waikato     G1
Won Turnbull      G2
Won Memsie       G2
2nd  Cox Plate     G1
2nd  Feehan          G2
 
 
No disrespect to Octagonal (he's a Derby winner). But Sunline wins hands down for absolute consistency at the highest level.
« Last Edit: 2009-Feb-23, 02:05 PM by westie »

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 02:07 PM Reply #7 »
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Recommend  Message 83 of 222 in Discussion 
From: wily Sent: 7/04/2002 7:52 PM
What was the head to head for Occy & Nothin LD?

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Recommend  Message 84 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 7/04/2002 7:55 PM
At the risk of ruffling a few feathers, I believe Octagonal is the most over-rated horse of the last 40 years so far as talking about Champion status is concerned.
 
In fact I firmly believe that his younger brother had superior ability. Unfortunately we never got to see him complete his three year old career.
 
And as for comparisons with Sunline just take a look as some figures.
 
These are the overall performances and peak ratings achieved by these horses according to Mark Read's database in each year of their careers:
 
                           3yrs       4yrs     5yrs     6yrs    Wins/Starts
Octagonal         71.5       73.5     73.5                    14/29
Sunline              74.5       77.5     76.0     78.0       31/44
Mouawad          71.5                                                 8/9
 
 
 

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Recommend  Message 85 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Viscount Sent: 8/04/2002 11:57 PM
Hareeba I think you would want to check your figures as Octagonal raced as a five year old. And as far as I can remeber Octagonal won 14 from 27 and Mouwad won 6 from 7. If you're basing your whole argument on ratings then fine but they really don't mean shit especially ones with so many mistakes. I agree it is arguable whether Mouawad had more ability but he was helped by racing against pretty weak opposition.
 
Most over-rated horse in the last 40 years. I would say he is the most under-rated horse when a horse as great as him is still denied champion status by people. He was the dominant horse of quite possibly the best generation of horses in history. He had won ten group ones by the time he retired at the end of his four year old season. How many did Sunline have at that stage? five(two of which being fillies or mares races). In fact she didn't pass his tally of group one wins until her six year old autumn. Two years later and that included another mares race and two poor quality New Zealand group ones(not saying they are all poor but those two were). His worst group one win(in terms of status of the race) was probably his Chipping Norton but he beat a much better field(Juggler, Filante) than either of her All Aged wins.
 
At the end of their four year old season's Kingston Town had Seven group ones, Tie The Knot had seven, Manikato had nine, Rough Habit had three.
 
As a three year old he won the Triple Crown(which no other horse has done properly), Cox Plate and Mercedes which no three year old had never done before or since. All up the major races he won were the triple crown, Cox Plate, Mercedes(twice) and Australian cup, every major classic of Australian racing except the VRC Derby(which doesn't really have the best record anyway). He also won the AJC Sires which is one of the main two-year old classics as well as running second in the Slipper and Champagne. The only other horse in recent history to win all three of the major WFA classics(Cox, Mercedes, Aus Cup) is Bonecrusher. He was competitve at the highest level from 1200 to 2500 and he has won from 1400 to 2400 at the highest level.
 
What major races has she won the Cox Plate(twice), Doncaster(twice) and Hong Kong. The only classics she has won is the Cox Plate(twice) and the Flight(which is only a semi classic). She has been won from 1200 to 2040 at the highest level. She may have carried a big weight to win this Doncaster but her first one she carried a fairly light weight(especially compared to Emancipation). While she is clearly the best mare ever her figures in no way add up to her being better than Octagonal. This is without even considering Kingston Town, Might and Power or any number of great horses of the last 25 years.

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Recommend  Message 86 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Viscount Sent: 8/04/2002 11:58 PM
I meant to say he never raced as a five year old.

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Recommend  Message 87 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Viscount Sent: 9/04/2002 12:02 AM
Wily as far as I can remember the head to head as three year olds would read NLD VRC Derby and Hobartville, Octagonal all three legs of the triple crown. As four year olds I don't know if they raced but NLD went pretty bad and Occy won four Group Ones.

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Recommend  Message 88 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 9/04/2002 12:14 AM
Sorry Viscount, I was wrong about the O racing as a 5 year old
But that doesn't change my opion at all
Sunline is deserving of a higher position in the rankings than he
 
Horse Name:
OCTAGONAL
Trainer:
J R HAWKES (WARWIC )
Sex:
H
Date of Birth:
Si
ZABEEL
Dam:
EIGHT CARAT
Dam Si
Prize Money :
$5892231
Career :
29 - 14 - 8 - 1
<NOBR>first fives :</NOBR>
23
Last Run :
22-03-97


Rating earned
kg units
Date
Position
/Field
Length
to the
Winner
Distance
Metres
Class
Track
Jockey
Name
Barrier
Weight Carried
by horse
Track
Rating</B< div>
Time
73.5 <NOBR>12-04-97</NOBR> 2/10 1.3 2000 G1WFA RAND R S DYE 3 57.0 0 121.2
71.5 <NOBR>22-03-97</NOBR> 1/14 0.0 2400 G1WFA RHIL R S DYE 2 57.0 0 147.4
72.5 <NOBR>10-03-97</NOBR> 1/10 0.0 2000 G1WFA FLEM R S DYE 7 57.0 0 121.0
73.0 <NOBR>22-02-97</NOBR> 1/5 0.0 1600 G1WFA W FM R S DYE 4 57.0 0 96.3
69.0 <NOBR>15-02-97</NOBR> 2/8 0.8 1400 G2WFA W FM D BEADMAN 3 57.0 2 83.8
42.5 <NOBR>07-02-97</NOBR> 4/6 2.8 794 TRIAL W FM ALLENDORF 1 48.0 0 47.0
-- 97 Day Spell --
64.0 <NOBR>02-11-96</NOBR> 9/12 8.0 2000 G1WFA FLEM D BEADMAN 11 57.0 0 120.8
68.5 <NOBR>26-10-96</NOBR> 5/8 3.5 2040 G1WFA M V D GAUCI 3 57.0 1 125.7
66.0 <NOBR>12-10-96</NOBR> 4/9 5.2 2000 G1WFA CAUL D BEADMAN 7 57.0 1 125.4
69.5 <NOBR>22-09-96</NOBR> 1/16 0.0 1800 G1WFA CAUL D BEADMAN 3 57.0 1 110.5
59.5 <NOBR>14-09-96</NOBR> 5/10 6.6 1600 G2WFA M V D GAUCI 5 57.0 2 99.3
64.5 <NOBR>31-08-96</NOBR> 7/9 3.0 1400 G2WFA CAUL D GAUCI 1 57.0 0 83.9
63.0 <NOBR>17-08-96</NOBR> 6/14 4.2 1200 G1WFA M V D GAUCI 5 57.0 2 72.3
0.0 <NOBR>09-08-96</NOBR> 6/9 5.2 792 TRIAL W FM R M QUINN 1 48.0 0 47.0
0.0 <NOBR>30-07-96</NOBR> 3/5 0.5 900 TRIAL RHIL R M QUINN 1 48.0 0 55.8
-- 115 Day Spell --
71.5 <NOBR>06-04-96</NOBR> 1/11 0.0 2400 3G1SWT RAND D BEADMAN 5 55.5 0 148.4
71.0 <NOBR>30-03-96</NOBR> 1/12 0.0 2400 G1WFA RHIL D BEADMAN 7 52.0 0 147.3
70.5 <NOBR>23-03-96</NOBR> 1/12 0.0 2000 3G1SWT RHIL D BEADMAN 11 55.5 0 120.0
67.0 <NOBR>09-03-96</NOBR> 1/7 0.0 1900 3G1SWT CANT D BEADMAN 4 55.5 1 119.4
66.0 <NOBR>24-02-96</NOBR> 2/9 0.2 1400 3G2SWT W FM G COOKSLEY 6 55.5 1 82.7
46.0 <NOBR>16-02-96</NOBR> 3/7 2.6 800 TRIAL W FM POWELL 1 48.0 0 47.7
-- 104 Day Spell --
67.0 <NOBR>04-11-95</NOBR> 2/11 0.8 2500 3G1SWT FLEM S SCRIVEN 9 55.5 0 156.5
69.5 <NOBR>28-10-95</NOBR> 1/14 0.0 2040 G1WFA M V R S DYE 6 48.5 0 126.3
65.0 <NOBR>14-10-95</NOBR> 3/10 3.5 1600 3G1SWT CAUL D GAUCI 8 55.5 0 96.7
65.5 <NOBR>02-10-95</NOBR> 1/8 0.0 1400 3G3SWT RAND G COOKSLEY 6 55.0 0 83.4
66.5 <NOBR>16-09-95</NOBR> 1/6 0.0 1300 3G4SWT RHIL G COOKSLEY 4 55.5 1 77.4
64.5 <NOBR>02-09-95</NOBR> 2/5 1.8 1200 3G3SWT RAND G COOKSLEY 2 55.0 2 72.0
53.0 <NOBR>15-08-95</NOBR> 1/9 0.0 900 TRIAL RHIL M EVANS 4 48.0 0 54.6
-- 108 Day Spell --
68.0 <NOBR>29-04-95</NOBR> 2/5 0.1 1600 2G1SWT RAND G COOKSLEY 5 55.5 0 99.6
68.0 <NOBR>17-04-95</NOBR> 1/11 0.0 1400 2G1SWT RAND G COOKSLEY 11 55.5 1 85.4
68.0 <NOBR>08-04-95</NOBR> 2/16 0.2 1200 2G1SWT RHIL G COOKSLEY 5 55.5 0 70.2
67.0 <NOBR>25-03-95</NOBR> 1/11 0.0 1200 2CG2SW RHIL G COOKSLEY 5 55.5 0 69.4
45.0 <NOBR>14-03-95</NOBR> 1/6 0.0 800 2TRIAL W FM G L COOKSLEY 1 48.0 0 48.4
-- 101 Day Spell --
56.5 <NOBR>03-12-94</NOBR> 1/10 0.0 1100 2YCHCP RHIL M EVANS 5 53.0 0 64.3
37.5 <NOBR>18-11-94</NOBR> 7/9 6.8 800 2TRIAL W FM M.PAY 4 48.0 0 48.4

You can only beat what is around at the time, and that's where ratings are useful for comparison of horses from different years (assuming of course that they are soundly based) as they remove the subjective and emotional aspects from relative assessments

Horse Name:
MOUAWAD
Trainer:
C E CONNERS (WARWIC )
Sex:
C
Date of Birth:
Si
ZABEEL
Dam:
EIGHT CARAT
Dam Si
Prize Money :
$775456
Career :
9 - 8 - 0 - 0
<NOBR>first fives :</NOBR>
8
Last Run :
15-03-97


Rating earned
kg units
Date
Position
/Field
Length
to the
Winner
Distance
Metres
Class
Track
Jockey
Name
Barrier
Weight Carried
by horse
Track
Rating</B< div>
Time
70.0 <NOBR>15-03-97</NOBR> 1/8 0.0 1500 G1WFA RHIL G COOKSLEY 2 53.0 0 87.8
71.5 <NOBR>01-03-97</NOBR> 1/6 0.0 1400 G1WFA CAUL G COOKSLEY 5 53.5 0 83.1
68.0 <NOBR>15-02-97</NOBR> 1/7 0.0 1600 3G1SWT FLEM G COOKSLEY 7 55.5 0 96.5
65.5 <NOBR>01-02-97</NOBR> 1/8 0.0 1400 3CG4SW SAND G COOKSLEY 7 54.5 0 81.8
59.0 <NOBR>18-01-97</NOBR> 4/13 3.2 1200 3YOHCP RAND J MARSHALL 1 56.5 0 69.5
53.5 <NOBR>07-01-97</NOBR> 2/10 1.0 1050 TRIAL RWIT MARSHALL 1 48.0 0 63.0
-- 61 Day Spell --
67.0 <NOBR>07-11-96</NOBR> 1/11 0.0 1400 3CG4HP FLEM J MARSHALL 9 56.5 0 82.7
61.0 <NOBR>26-10-96</NOBR> 1/8 0.0 1200 3YR1MW RHIL J MARSHALL 7 54.5 0 70.3
57.5 <NOBR>16-10-96</NOBR> 1/9 0.0 1250 3CR0MW CANT J MARSHALL 1 55.0 0 73.8
52.5 <NOBR>04-10-96</NOBR> 1/10 0.0 800 TRIAL W FM WALKINSHAW 1 48.0 0 47.4


Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 02:08 PM Reply #8 »
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Recommend  Message 89 of 222 in Discussion 
From: j.r.b. Sent: 9/04/2002 12:17 AM
Mouawad won seven from eight - three G1s

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Recommend  Message 90 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Viscount Sent: 9/04/2002 12:37 AM
Thought it might be eight starts(knew it was seven starts or seven wins) but knew it wasn't nine starts.

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Recommend  Message 91 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Viscount Sent: 9/04/2002 1:00 AM
I have always found ratings to be very misleading and not really accurate. They never seem to take the class of opposition into account and there are so many variables like track bias, the weather or even something like a headwind or tailwind in the straight. There is nothing saying all these make a difference but they must have some effect. How can things like tracks be compared when for example Randwick is different now to a year ago because of the new track whereas other tracks have probably deteriorated since last year.
 
The ratings you provide for Octagonal are quite interesting, firstly his Cox Plate win was only rated on a par with his Underwood win and less than his two Mercedes, Aus Cup, Chipping Norton, second to Intergaze, Derby win, Rosehill Guineas win and only a half kilo more than his second to Juggler in the Apollo. His highest rating performances were his second to Intergaze at his last start and his Chipping Norton win. Which is strange considering he equalled the race and track records in the Rosehill Guineas and broke the race record in the Derby. The figures for your ratings seem clearly flawed to me. How does a horse with so many big wins rate highest in defeat(and not a close one at that) and how does a Cox Plate win rank so low. See what I said about a quality of opposition factor. 
 
Why does she rate better for you?

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 02:09 PM Reply #9 »
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Recommend  Message 92 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Puntermatt Sent: 9/04/2002 1:03 AM
Viscount, a superb argument  Octagonal!!!
 
I'm firmly in your corner on this one!!! Food for thought here - had he raced in the USA or Europe, Octagonal could have been sent to stud after winning the Triple Crown and been rated higher than Sunline for her entire career on the basis of that achievement alone.
 
As much as it pains me to admit it, the Americans have got it right with their focus on classic racing and we've got it wrong.

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Recommend  Message 93 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Viscount Sent: 9/04/2002 1:11 AM
And he achieved the feat against the best crop of horses possibly ever. Saintly, Nothin Leica Dane or Filante would probably have beaten any other crop in the last ten years. I mean before being beaten by Octagonal on three consecutive saturdays Saintly won the Australian Cup by five lengths.

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Recommend  Message 94 of 222 in Discussion 
From: j.r.b. Sent: 9/04/2002 2:16 AM
A proper set of ratings takes into account all relevant factors. One irrelevant factor is finishing position - rather, lengths beaten is relevant or lengths won by is relevant. Therefore, a 2nd placing might well rate higher than win e.g. Mark Read rates Sunline's 2nd to Northerly in last year's Cox Plate as being better than her win in  1999 Cox Plate. Weight is relevant (which is why a 3yo winning a Cox Plate might rate lower than would be otherwise expected e.g. Mark Read rates Northerly and Sunline on 77 and 73.5 respectively for last year's Cox Plate, whereas Viscount only rates 71). Class of opposition is relevant. Track bias is relevant. Barriers are relevant. Track condition is relevant. Times may be relevant. Trip is relevant. Interference is relevant. No doubt there are many other relevant factors.
 
The fact is that ratings are based on a dispassionate analysis of all relevant factors in a race, rather than the mere impressions which most of us form about particular horses and particular races, which may be influenced by many irrelevant factors. Take Moon Dragon, for instance. She created an enormous impression in the Spring, but most of us would say that she has been most disappointing in the Autumn. However, although she has never reproduced her Sandown Guineas rating and excepting that run, her Autumn performances are comparable with the rest of her Spring.   
 
 A point on Saintly - his record clearly demonstrates that he was a better horse in Melbourne than in Sydney; he was beaten once in Melb (Sandown Guineas to Peep on the Sly, and won his 4 G1s there. No G1s in Sydney. Record in Melb - 6  starts, 5 wins (4 G1s). Record in Sydney - 17 starts, 5 wins (no G1s). Saintly raced Octagonal once in Melbourne, in the Cox Plate, and slaughtered him. He won the Australian Cup by 2.5 lengths, not 5. 
 
Just to put the "crop" into perspective, Nothin' Leica Dane may have been a Victoria Derby winner, but the fact remains that, after the Hobartville Stakes - his first run as an Autumn 3yo, he did not win a single race throughout  the rest of his career. Much as I love Filante, the fact is that he won only 2 Group 1 races in his entire career. Horses which have subsequently run in the AJC Derby like Fairway, Tie The Knot, Shogun Lodge, Universal Prince et al. have won more Group 1s than either Nothin' Leica Dane or Filante. 
 
Puntermatt, I think you'll find that Cigar rates pretty highly with the Yanks, and he certainly didn't win any Triple Crown races. Our North American friends may concentrate on the Classics, but they sure know when they've got a champion older horse on their hands !

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Recommend  Message 95 of 222 in Discussion 
From: mightn Sent: 9/04/2002 2:20 AM
Hareeba,
 
I sometimes use Mark Reads ratings to do some form but they don't prove anything with this argument. All they represent are a weight rating for a particular race that only take into account the actual weight carried and the winning margin. Each class of race is given a base rating and then winning margins and weight carried are calculated from that figure. It has absolutely nothing to do with strength of opposition, track conditions, luck in running etc.
 
e.g. when Northerly beat Sunline by a head in that 1600m race at the Valley in the spring, Northerly rated a 70.0 and Sunline 67.0 for a head decision. It is all based on the fact that Northerly had to carry 58 and Sunline 55.5. 3kg difference in performance, even though they were racing at WFA.
 
Other comparisons will also be of interest. Sunlines first Coolmore win rated 75.5 and yet her 7 length romp in her second Cox Plate only rates a 76.0.  To put that into perspective, Might and Powers last run before injury in the crap staying race at Flemington where he beat Joss Sticks or Joy Sticks or whatever its name was, rated a 78.5.   2.5kg better than Sunlines Cox Plate triumph.
 
Last years Cox Plate saw Northerly, Sunline and Viscount finish together and smash each other at the end. Northerly 77, Sunline73.5, Viscount 71 were the ratings.
 
I'm not saying that things like Timeform ratings can be used because they are specificly for that, but these Ozeform ratings are way too general to be making comparisons.

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Recommend  Message 96 of 222 in Discussion 
From: mightn Sent: 9/04/2002 2:27 AM
Made my posting before reading JRB's. Interesting that we use a few of the same examples. Stand by what I said the Ozeform has no place comparing champs in different races. All it shows is how far they beat their opposition by and what weight was carried and nothing else. Way too basic for this argument but pretty useful when doing the form.

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Recommend  Message 97 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Viscount Sent: 9/04/2002 11:14 AM
jrb- Rating a three year old on what it did after its three year old season is misleading. It's like saying a champion two-year old who never wins at three is no good. Nothin Leica Dane didn't win after the Hobartville but he still performed well in the triple crown and was quite possibly the best spring staying three year old since Tulloch. His wins in the Spring Champion, Norman Robinson, VRC Derby and his second in the Cup to one of our best two milers of the last decade showed his ability. He may not have won but he went very close. He also just missed in the Metrplolitan as a four year old when steaming home over the top of them(including Saintly). Filante may have only won two group ones in later life but he did run second in two Cox Plates(Both to horses who were outstanding in Melbourne) and placed in numerous other Group Ones behind horses like Juggler and Encounter. His two wins were quite good too, his Caulfield Stakes win was very easy and his Epsom win was outstanding, carrying 57kgs, running the time he did and winning easily while never really looking like he had hit top gear. You also have to remember that he came from a stable who don't have the greatest record of having their promising horses go on.
 
Saintly was clearly better in Melbourne but he was not hopeless in Sydney, he cant have been too bad to win an Expressway stakes over 1100 metres(which is totally unsuitable distance for him), he also won a hill stakes and ran third in a Mercedes Classic. In most his other Sydney starts he was beaten by Octagonal or Filante. Are you comparing Octagonal to Saintly on the one run(when Saintly was in his career best form and Octagonal was in his career worst form) while ignoring all of Octagonal's Sydney wins over him. Just on that run looking at Octagonal's record he always performed woefully for Gauci even looking at his Caulfield Guineas third, he had won the Heritage and Stan Fox leading in as well as getting much closer to Our Maizcay in the 1200 metre Roman Consul and after won the Cox Plate and ran second in the VRC Derby. The run in the Caulfield Guineas was well below par compared to his other runs that campaign for other jockeys.
 
Another point is that we see a lot of excuses given out for backmarkers these days but he simply won and regurlarly from pretty hopeless positions like his second Mercedes, Australian Cup and Cox Plate. How many horses have come from well back in a Cox Plate and won in recent years. He came from well back and came wide on the turn(he almost went to the outside rail) covering an enormous amount of extra ground to win as a three year old which is also quite rare in recent history(another flaw of the ratings which downgrades a weight for age effort which has been shown to be the peak of three year old racing, that is the hardest thing to do at WFA age level for a three year old is win a Cox Plate but the ratings downgrade it because they carry a light weight, it's called weight for age for a reason which is equalise the horses). Looking at other recent winners of the Cox Plate Saintly came from fourth, Dane Ripper from about fifth or sixth(but got a saloon passage up the rails), Might and Power led, Sunline led and was on the speed and Northerly was about third or fourth(all three of them were on the speed). I see a pattern here, it doesn't seem too easy to come from back in a Cox Plate looking at that it seems to be a bit of a speed horse race to me(and that is created by the track).
 
And while Cigar might rate quite highly he would never be mentioned in the same breath as a triple crown winner.

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Recommend  Message 98 of 222 in Discussion 
From: wily Sent: 9/04/2002 12:51 PM
I think I'll upset a few but I just cant consider Occy a champ.
Personally, I think he was a champion 3yo stayer of his year but thats about the extent of it. He did put in some great performances. Though.
 
He was one of the better 's but even in defeat Our Maizcay was far superior. This continued into their 3yo year when occy was blown away by O>M in the Roman Consu l & C. Guineas.
His trple crown entiltles him to the champion 3yo stayer tag.
 
His  winter & spring form in 1996 was a far cry from what a champ puts in and frankly it was no surprise to see him blown away by Intergaze at his last start.
He bascally plateaued from his stellar 3yo days and connection thought a stud career was a better option before he was devalued on the track

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Recommend  Message 99 of 222 in Discussion 
From: jrb Sent: 9/04/2002 12:52 PM
A North American Triple Crown winner wins the Kentucky Derby, comes back in distance and wins the Preakness and then jumps up to 2400m to win the Belmont. With all due respect to Octagonal,  to consider giving him a place on the same stratum as Affirmed, Seattle Slew, Secretariat, Citation and co. is dreaming. Anyway, which is the "official" Triple Crown here ? Is it the Spring Triple Crown won by Fairway ? What about the Melbourne Autumn Triple Crown won by Dignity Dancer ? No - probably not, but there are a few of them going around.   The Canterbury Guineas, as often as not run at Rosehill (although not when Octagonal won it), and the Rosehill Guineas are, to all intents and purposes, the same race. No doubt the AJC Derby is a very good race for 3yos (the best here), but as a trio of races, they are quite simply nowhere near as important in the context of Australian racing as the KD, the Preakness and the Belmont are to North Americans. 
 
That said, in terms of general public interest generated by a  racehorse in North America, Cigar rates right up there with the Seattle Slews and Affirmeds. Maybe not Secretariat, but that is not surprising as Secretariat was HOTY as a 2yo and had been syndicated for a phenomenal US$6.08m before he even ran at 3.
 
Nothin' Leica Dane had plenty of opportunities to win a race as a 3yo following the Hobartville. He did not. The fact remains that he never won another race. 
 
I agree that it is misleading to denigrate a champion 2yo because he doesn't perform as an older horse. The situation with 3yos is entirely different. Champion 2yos invariably rely on precocity as well as ability to attain their exalted status. Precocity diminishes in importance as the rest of the generation catches up. Champion, Derby winning, 3yos do not rely on  precocity. Nothin' Leica Dane was certainly a very good Spring and Autumn 3yo; however, he simply may not have been as good as many remember him to be.
 
Better Loosen Up, Surfer's Paradise and Super Impose all won Cox Plates from well off the speed. They won in 1990, 1991 and 1992. You might say that that is ancient history, but was only 3 years later that Octagonal won his Cox Plate. Sunline and Might & Power are leaders - they were also the best horses in the Cox Plates they won; you would hardly expect them to come from off the pace. The Cox Plate is usually won by the best horse in the race. Therefore, if the best horse in the race is a backmarker, the winner will come from back in the field. If the best horse in the race is a leader, then the winner will lead all the way.
 
My original point remains and indeed is exemplified by your references to "patterns" in the Cox Plate, Octagonal almost being on the outside fence on the turn, Octagonal not going well for Gauci, Filante coming from a stable that does not have its promising horses go on etc. These are all impressions - most of us (including me) rely on impressions when forming views about various horses and various races; the ratings analyst relies on cold hard facts. All bookmakers and professional punters rely on ratings. They are the ones who make money betting on horses.

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Recommend  Message 100 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 9/04/2002 3:03 PM
Viscount and Mightn, I think you have missed the whole point of ratings.
 
They are not infallible but if based on a sound and consistent footing that is the whole point - an objective measure to be able to compare horses from different locations, times, seasons, years etc. without being tarnished by emotional and subjective opinions
 
Mark Read's may not be the best but they are readily accessible and for the purpose I quoted them I believe they are totally relevant as they indicated a fairly significant superiority for Sunline over Octagonal, as I would expect any other serious ratings expert's would.
 
Until someone comes up with a superior objective measure I will continue to rely on them
 
jrb has posted some very good stuff subsequently with which I concur
 
It seems fuzzy logic to me to say that you have to have a good horse behind you to turn in a top rating. If a superior animal donkey-licks those who are sent around against it, eg. Might And Power in his last race at Flemington, Sunline in last Saturday's All-Aged etc there is no logic in saying it can't be a top rating performance. And it follows that a narrow win in a more prestigious race, eg. a Cox Plate may well rate lower.
 
Back to Octagonal. He gained cult status for his string of narrow victories in the major three year old classics etc beating what has been referred to as the best crop of three years in decades. I think that assessment is subject to closer scrutiny. As has been pointed out Saintly was probably next best in that crop and he finished close to Octagonal in Sydney but was obviously a superior horse in Melbourne and particularly at Flemington where he had 3 most impressive victories from 3 outings. Octagonal would never have got close to Saintly at Flemington in my opinion. And it has been well documented what a disappointment Nothin Leica Dane turned out to be. Octagonal did win an Australian Cup (bless him!) but it was an eyelash job. Saintly's win was awesome. Octagonal's Cox Plate win was over an under-done Mahogany racing first up for 7 weeks!
 
I reiterate, Octagonal is the most over-rated horse of the last 40 years when it comes to Champion discussions. He was very very good, he was the champion three year old of his season but that's about as far as it goes for mine. He is not an Immortal. He is not even a Legend.

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Recommend  Message 101 of 222 in Discussion 
From: mightn Sent: 9/04/2002 4:32 PM
Hareeba,
 
I agree with so many of your points and at no stage did I comment on the Octagonal champion tag specificly- I was merely pointing out the flaws in using Mark Reads Ozeform as a frame of reference- not all ratings. Timeform ratings, I believe are excellent and intriguing and give as great an insight as anything. Ozeform does not.
 
e.g. Sunline could win over 2000m at Rosehill in a Group One beating 2 other opponents- Dingo Pup and Joes Blow (two maidens),in a time 2 minutes and thirty seconds on a fast track by one length and that would rate higher than her winning the same group one, with the same weight, against Phar Lap, Tulloch, Kingston Town, Octagonal, Saintly, Emancipation and 15 others in a time of 1.59.3 on a dead track by 1/2 length. Timeform or other rating services would have her first win much, much lower than her second and we all know that would be correct- Ozeform would not.
 
I know this example is far fetched but it is 100% correct. All those weight ratings do are exactly that. Give a figure of how far a horse beat a field with what weight they were carrying.

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Recommend  Message 102 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 9/04/2002 7:45 PM
Sorry Mightn, that is certainly not my understanding of how Mark Read's ratings are assessed. There is a lot more science behind the ratings than that. What makes you think Timeform ratings are any better?

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Recommend  Message 103 of 222 in Discussion 
From: j.r.b. Sent: 9/04/2002 7:55 PM
If Mark Read or indeed anyone at all used a rationale anything like that, Mightn, he would would never pick a single winner. I am sure that Read's ratings would never come up with the scenario you outline. What is the basis for your assertion that Ozeform would rate the first win higher than the second ?

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Recommend  Message 104 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Puntermatt Sent: 9/04/2002 8:31 PM
Hareeba, there is no doubt in my mind that the 95-96' 3yo crop is the BEST to ever run in Australia - i posted elsewhere saying that Brian York who road Roysyn to a 3-4 length 5th placing in the 96 Derby has been quoted as saying that Roysyn would have won 7 out of 10 normal Derbies had he not had the misfortune to strike this awesome crop. I challenge you to come up with a better crop!! 
 
I assure you that i am not one of those casual punters who painted my face pink and jumped on the Big O bandwagon, otherwise i would be now on the Sunline bandwagon!! I am a racing purist and an avid student of racing history. I believe that a horses true test of class, courage, stamina and acceleration can only be tested over the classic distance of a mile and a half. Octagonal excelled here. Sunline never attempted it even though she could have done a Mahogany and attempted to win a Derby or Oaks on class alone. For this reason Octagonal rates higher than Sunline in my eyes. He is underrated and she is overrated, but she is a excellent racemare, nevertheless.
 
JRB - it'll never happen but wouldn't it be great to copy the Yanks and switch the Canterbury Guineas and the Rosehill Guineas around and see what happens!!! On the subject of triple crowns, its time we stopped competing between states and did away with the Melb triple crowns and Sydneys spring triple crown.

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Recommend  Message 105 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 9/04/2002 9:49 PM
Puntermatt, I guess there is no sense in attempting to convince you otherwise so long as you hold to such a quaintly limited notion of the "true test" of a thoroughbred. I fail to understand why a horse has to be able to stay a mile and half to be considered worthy.
 
As for your challenge, again that is difficult without some guidelines as you will no doubt instantly dismiss 1978/79 which boasts a couple of non mile and half horses but to my mind was an infinitely superior crop: Manikato, Dulcify, Double Century, Turf Ruler and Karaman etc. And how many do you require to be in the crop for considertion? 1957/58 boasted Tulloch and Prince Darius. To my mind that 2 outweighs your 4 of Octagonal, Saintly and Nothin Leica Dane and Roysyn???? What ever Roysyn win when the other three weren't about so that we can give any sort of credence to Brian York's comment? How many times have we heard similar claims from jockeys and trainers? Ignore them until  the horse does the talking!
 
I could go on: 1969/70 Vain, Daryl's Joy, Wood Court Inn, Divide And Rule etc; 1976/77 Surround, Family Of Man, Savoir, Salamander etc; 1973/74 Taj Rossi, Imagele, Leica Lover, Grand Cidium etc
 
And let's not forget this season's crop: Carnegie Express, Don Eduardo, Lonhro, Viscount and add to that probably the best crop of fillies for many a year.
 
And I'm sure some of the old-timers could come up with crops from earlier years which could boast superior records to your 'Best Ever' lot.

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Recommend  Message 106 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Viscount Sent: 9/04/2002 11:22 PM
Hareeba mate all the crops you listed were before I was born(except this season which is hardly worth a real mention as much a fan of Lonhro and Viscount as I am and how good a stayer I think the Don may be they don't really rate) so excuse my ignorance of some of the horses you mentioned. I know a many of them but some I have never heard of. You'll probably prove me wrong but I see it this way(ignoring the sprinters for the moment but since you mentioned sprinters how about Our Maizcay, Strategic, Gold Ace, Flying Spur- all group one winners against older horses) as three year olds between them they won the Cox Plate, Mercedes Classic, Australian Cup and ran second in the Melbourne Cup. As four year olds they won all four. So besides the Caulfield Cup they took out all the major staying races in their two years. They also won a number of other group one events but how many crops have beat the older horses then come back as older horses and won again.
 
I agree with you that running a mile and a half shouldn't be a condition for a champion as I think champion sprinters are amazing.
 
Jrb- I am not trying to compare Australia's triple crown to theirs I think it should stay the same as it is now. It is still an important series though. If the Canterbury Guineas and Rosehill Guineas are basically the same race why doesn't the same horse always win both. I agree with your point on the stupidity of running the Canterbury Guineas at Rosehill though.
 
On your point regarding three year olds who do not go on there have been a number group one winning three year olds not go on in recent years as a result of many factors including over-racing(which I think Nothin Leica Dane suffered from) including Dignity Dancer, Gold Guru, Arena, Freemason and I'm sure there are others that escape me at this point.
 
I wouldn't call the Cox Plates you mentioned ancient history I've never seen(too young) the whole race of any of them though so I couldn't comment on them. I was trying to show that in recent years especially since the strath ayr was put in(1995 I think but I'm not sure as I couldn't find out on their website) the race has become one for speed horses and the backmarkers seem to be at a big disadvantage. Recent history has shown this with the performances of on pace runners in recent years.
 
Using ratings might be fine to compare horses when racing each other but in comparing champions I think emotion and personal feelings are important because if you take the emotion away where is the enjoyment in the sport. I love racing and I'm passionate about it so why should that be wasted for a computer program. I don't need anyone to think for me and neither should you.
 
Wily- So he was merely a champion three year old stayer. His four group ones at four and his champion two year old title were obviously a waste of time. You use Our Maizcay as an example who was an outstanding horse and it was a tragedy his race career ended prematurely. The head to head record was still 3-2 to Octagonal and only one of them was over a distance suited to Occy. The Caulfield mile is more like 1400 and can be a real speed horse mile(look at how close sprinters like the General and Lauries Lottery got to winning and they were no milers). If anything this example strengthens Occy's case that he had such a good record against OM. No other horse in the generation(or at all) would probably have a positive record against him.
 
His form in that four year old spring was poor but he still won a group one race. The campaign was poorly thought out though. While he could sprint as a two and early three year old as he got older he only really sprinted fresh. In his three and four year old autumns he had only five starts and after running second over 1400 metres first up jumped in distance so that by his third start of the campaign he was at 2000 metres and then went to 2400(his ideal distance) the mistake they made in his last race was bringing him back to 2000 metres but he was still beaten by a great horse who at some stages of his career blew away a who's who of racing in the mid to late nineties(including Sunline in a very pitiful effort in the Queen Elizabeth when he was giving her a ton of weight at WFA. He also beat home a very underated horse in All Our Mob.
 
The problem with the four year old spring(even Hawkes admits he made a mistake) is that he had a seven race campaign where first up he was at 1200 metres and third up he was still only at a mile and fourth up even though he won over 1800 he was usually at 2400 at that stage. It took him till his fifth start to reach 2000 metres(where he stayed) which he ideally should have been at third up. For a genuine 2400 horse(in the long term of a campaign, his record over 2000 metres was still good but he had to be fresh). Hawkes realised the problem and rectified it for the autumn where he won three more group ones.
 
Maybe he had plateaued but it was a pretty high plateau considering he won three group ones his last campaign including a Mercedes and Australian Cup and ran second in a group one and group two. Thats a great campaign by anyones standard. you say a stud career would be better but how many outstanding three year olds race on at four let alone five. In any other part of the world he would have been retired at three. Even in Australia many horses retire at three. What did he have to race for at five he had already won all the major WFA classics and if you had a horse that could basically guarantee you at least $3 million(it would have been closer to seven or eight million last year) a year like he has produced at stud would you knock it back.
 
People bring up Saintly against him but he was 3-1 against him too, what other horse had such a good record against Saintly. But put Saintly in his perfect environment you say and that would be a race. Octagonal didn't care where he raced as shown by the fact he won Group ones at all the Sydney and Melbourne tracks that have them. How many horses can claim that(not many considering there are seven tracks that stage group ones in those cities).
 
Mahogany may have been underdone(only Lee Freedman knows for sure how fit he was) but he had a much easier run than Octagonal and there was 12 other horses in the race that never got near either of them and the whole three year old Cox Plate winner is just so common.
 
How many lengths start was he giving away at the top of the straight in the Australian Cup! He never at any stage looked a possibility of getting up but he still did. I think that was one of his greatest performances. I doubt any other horse in history would have got up from that position.
 
I find it astounding that people can write off a horse who showed such an amazing will to win at the highest level on so many occassions!!!

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 02:10 PM Reply #10 »
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From: MAHOGANY Sent: 10/04/2002 12:10 AM
I would consider that the broad parameters of a true champion would include the following:
1. Success at the highest level (i.e. G1 races) on a number of occassions
(e.g 10+) over a range of distances (e.g. 1200-2400) over at least three seasons.  
2. A high winning strike rate in Group 1 races
 
I realise that this excludes horses which specialise over certain distances (e.g. sprinters / stayers) and which excel at a certain age (e.g. champion 2 yr olds).
In my opinion the only champions in recent times a 
Might and Power - Champion Stayer
Manikato - Champion Sprinter
Sunline - Champion Sprinter/ Miler
 
However the only TRUE Champion is the King! Long Live the King!!   

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From: Kingstontown Sent: 10/04/2002 12:02 PM
OK - well take out Sunline and M&P as they have never pretended to be backmarkers.
 
From 1995 you ask who came from behind in a Cox Plate, well lets see,
 
1995 - Octagonal did
1996 - Yes I think Saintly did too
1997 - Dane Ripper did
2001 - yes and Northerly did as well
 
Hmm.

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From: Viscount Sent: 10/04/2002 12:22 PM
Kingstontown here is what I posted-
 
How many horses have come from well back in a Cox Plate and won in recent years. He came from well back and came wide on the turn(he almost went to the outside rail) covering an enormous amount of extra ground to win
 
Looking at other recent winners of the Cox Plate Saintly came from fourth, Dane Ripper from about fifth or sixth(but got a saloon passage up the rails), Might and Power led, Sunline led and was on the speed and Northerly was about third or fourth(all three of them were on the speed). I see a pattern here, it doesn't seem too easy to come from back in a Cox Plate looking at that it seems to be a bit of a speed horse race to me(and that is created by the track).
 
I did make the mistake of not referring to the fact that it was only recent history I was looking at especially since the new surface was put down. As I elaborated on in my next message-
 
I wouldn't call the Cox Plates you mentioned ancient history I've never seen(too young) the whole race of any of them though so I couldn't comment on them. I was trying to show that in recent years especially since the strath ayr was put in(1995 I think but I'm not sure as I couldn't find out on their website) the race has become one for speed horses and the backmarkers seem to be at a big disadvantage. Recent history has shown this with the performances of on pace runners in recent years.
 
Your post points out nothing I haven't already said but the fact is you can hardly call the position of Northerly or Saintly in their wins as being backmarkers. Northerly was only behind Sunline and Viscount that's hardly a backmarker performance he was more one out one back for mine. Even Dane Ripper only had four or five horses behind her and she went up the rails.
 
You also put in Octagonal as a backmarker but the whole point I was making was about him and the fact his win defied a recent trend in the race. A point you clearly missed.

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From: Kingstontown Sent: 10/04/2002 1:03 PM
Viscount:  Please define 'backmarker' for me in your words.
Could be wrong but from memory Saintly made up a poo load of ground rounding the turn to win that race.  He was wide, he was back and he was all tangled up in the legs dept.
Occy was probably the last really great 'backmarker' to race in the last few years.  Tie the Knot also deserves a mention and we all know that Uni Prince is famous/infamous/notorious for it!  What other quality backmarker in recent years can lay claim to having 'dipped out' in this race because of it?
Despite all of the strath ayr carry on I think that the Cox Plate form always stacks up and upholds its claim as the Grand Final/Championship for that racing year - the result usually reflects how it is.
I think with the advent of Might & Power and then Sunline that we have been spoilt by watching these extraordinary horses out front make everything look so difficult fo those behind them.

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From: Viscount Sent: 10/04/2002 1:16 PM
Saintly was right behind them on the turn but ran out sharply at the top of the straight causing him to have to make up more ground than he needed. I'm not saying that all backmarkers should win but there have been any number of backmarkers struggle to make any impression at all. While some horses who were not renowned for their staying capabilities(like Encounter) were able to hang on.

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From: suzzy Sent: 10/04/2002 1:26 PM
Good on Warwick Farm - todays Daily Telegraph -
"Horsey types will be interested to learn the AJC yesterday announced the
main members' bar at Warwick Farm will be renamed TIE THE KNOT BAR
in honour of the just retired CHAMPION gelding. At Randwick this Saturday
Tie the Knot will have a farewell gallop before the Schweppes Sydney Cup."
 
You would have to say that this Horse gave his best every time he raced - and
with his record, in my book he is a Champion - I am sure thousands will agree
on Saturday.
 

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From: Kingstontown Sent: 10/04/2002 1:29 PM
So Viscount - based on that comment, who do you think deserved a Cox Plate that didnt get one?
Just curious.

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From: Kingstontown Sent: 10/04/2002 2:08 PM
Is that a collective quality based on the performances of four individuals Mattgloss? - cos I sure as hell cant think of any other timeless pieces of thoroughbred flesh to come out of that much vaunted season of 95/96!
Occy and Saintly of course are without peer and their records do the talking for them.  Nothin Leica Dane, he promised a lot based on his VRC Derby win and brave second to Doreimus in the Cup but then what kind of quality did he show us?  Strung out last in the Arc?
Filante - please do not get me started.  He was the classic 'also ran' of his time.  I am yet to get excited about anything he did and I was gunning for him in the '97 CP.  Sure great placegetter/bridesmaid but so is dear old Shogun...
So who else of note....?  Yes there were four pretty good horses in that crop of 3 yr olds, and there were a couple of memorable, spine tingling finishes that they battled out, but those four individuals aside tell me who also endured from that lot?

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From: Viscount Sent: 10/04/2002 3:24 PM
Based on what comment. I never said anyone was robbed I can't see where you get some of your comments from. Do you actually read my posts or just look at a few words and make it up.
 
Regarding to other horses from that generation at three Our Maizcay, Strategic, Gold Ace, Ravarda and Flying Spur all won Group ones against the older horses. And is that not a true indicator of the strength of three year olds, whether they can win at the highest level against older horses at both WFA and handicaps. Compare that to this year which was mentioned by someone and so far they have Viscount, Barkada, Dash for Cash, Mistegic who have won a total of four group ones compared to The 1995/6 total of seven winners of nine races and included much more major races like the Cox Plate, Australian Cup and Mercedes Classic.
 
The generation also included a number of horses who won at the highest level in later years. None of these horses were great horses but they still picked up some very important group one trophies(and some not so important ones). Catalan Opening, Shindig, Des's Dream, Arkady, Artic Scent, Jezabeel, Rogan Josh, Ruffles, Lord Luskin, Penghulu, Miss Margaret, Iron Horse, Cronus, Machine Gun Tom, Hula Flight, In Joyment and Heart Ruler.  

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From: Kingstontown Sent: 10/04/2002 5:16 PM
Viscount:  Your point was that backmarkers struggle in the CP, esp since the Valley was resurfaced - sorry if  I didnt interpret that one correctly.
Based on that premise, was wondering which quality backmarkers of recent years had been disadvantaged by it - thats all.

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From: Fruitfly Sent: 11/04/2002 12:39 AM
The definition depends on your perspective.
 
I have a couple of horses going around that have only won a couple of races each and they are champions to me!!

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From: Viscount Sent: 11/04/2002 3:31 PM
My point is with the small track and tight turns the backmarkers have a very difficult task to make up ground especially in a big field like there was in Octagonal's year.
 
Dane Ripper was one who came from back(albeit up the fence) and she was a great horse(one of my favourites) but the speed horses(Filante and Encounter) would have run one two except Larry took off on Schubert at the 1000 metre mark forcing them to make their runs too early. Even in Saintly's year there are many people who claim the fence was not the place to be and therefore the speed horse Filante should have won comfortably.
 
In Might And Powers year he was clearly the best horse but a number of backmarkers(Dracula, Dodge, etc) failed to run on at all(except Northern Drake) and the speed horses ran first and third(Tycoon Lil).
 
In Sunline's first win I don't think she was the best horse as Intergaze, Tie The Knot, Sky Heights all had far superior lead up form yet they came from off the pace. Sunline leading in had been beaten three times in a row(including a weak Epsom) where she was unplaced and after she was well beaten in Hong Kong leading to my observation that the Valley helped her. In her second win though there was no doubt as to her being the best horse(this was her best campaign to my mind). Still in that race the backmarkers failed to make up any leeway and not just on her they all really just held their positions(except for Datribe).
 
And in last years race all three speed horses ran a place clearly beating the rest which included backmarkers like UP(who was eating her up in the final stages at Flemington).
 
Overall I simply feel that backmarkers are at a disadvantage around the Valley in recent years.

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From: NineMSN Nicknamemel¡šša Sent: 11/04/2002 3:45 PM
Have a look at Oliver Twists run in that race Viscount, after a less than great ride from Paddy he made up a fair bit of ground, given a better ride he would have finished alot closer, he wouldn't have got near the Champ, but would have been in the placings for sure.

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 02:21 PM Reply #11 »
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From: Viscount Sent: 11/04/2002 3:50 PM
Which year are you talking about?

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From: mightn Sent: 11/04/2002 3:50 PM
I think that 777's posting on another thread is interesting and I remember being astounded when I read in a punters magazine that around 50% of all races are won from horses in the first 4 at the turn. Horses further back than 8th or something win less than 10% (approx).
 
I would think that it being the Cox Plate doesn't really make a difference to these stats. A back marker will win, on average, 1 in 10 Cox Plates and this seems about right. Hareeba is right. It is difficult for back markers to win (possibly even more at the Valley) but that is a standard rule for all racing.
 
p.s I haven't continued the argument about Ozeform because it was going up and down in the one place but I suggest you check Hareeba because i am sure that I am right. I am going to ask Wenona as he put me on to ozeform in the first place and I will get back to you.
 
Cheers.

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From: NineMSN Nicknamemel¡šša Sent: 11/04/2002 3:51 PM
2000

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From: mightn Sent: 11/04/2002 3:52 PM
....sorry Viscount is right....

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From: Viscount Sent: 11/04/2002 4:02 PM
Off the top of my head I do remember the run(just missed third I think) it was a good run. But he still found it difficult to make up ground, it hardly invalidates my point.
 
I am sorry I forgot him though as he was a very good horse and one I enjoyed watching.

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From: NineMSN Nicknamemel¡šša Sent: 11/04/2002 4:06 PM
I wasn't trying to invalidate your point at all Viscount, in fact I haven't read the entire back & forth, just read the bit about the 2000 CP, and thought I'd post re Ollie's run. I agree he found it hard to make up ground, made even harder given how far back he was, poor old Ollie 

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From: Kingstontown Sent: 11/04/2002 4:13 PM
Fair enough

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From: champagne Sent: 3/05/2002 11:57 AM
I have thought long and hard about this question and still cannot come up with an adequate definition.......
 
In my short love affair with Thoroughbred Racing, I have had the pleasure of watching 5 horses who I bestow the title of champion, that's not to say there weren't many before, but to watch them race live and follow them.........
 
KINGSTON TOWN
TIE THE KNOT
OCTAGONAL
MIGHT AND POWER
SUNLINE
 
....to watch replays of races I remember watching live vividly, where I was, who I was with......it sends a shiver down my spine. Does this help anyone with their definition ??

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From: tottie68 Sent: 30/05/2002 12:49 PM
Phar Lap
Bernborough
Tulloch
Tobin Bronze
Rain Lover
Think Big
Manikato
Kingston Town
Octaganal
Might and Power
Sunline

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From: matt Sent: 30/05/2002 2:56 PM
this is obviously a resonably old posting and i have come in rather late but i figured i would add my 2 bobs worth
believe it or not but i concider there to be anything up to 18 champions every season and there for i do not believe the word is used enough but before people think that i am completely crazy let me explain myself and my reasonings
IMMORTALS:. Carbine, Phar Lap, Bernborough,Tulloch,Kingston Town other people might want to add other horses to an immortal list but i think if you had a poll and asked people to name there top ten greatest horses of all time then i would imagine the 5 i have named as my immortals would be named in 95% of the lists.
ALL TIME GREATS
        then you have all time greats who are too numerous to name off the top of my head
SEASONAL CHAMPIONS
        and then you have seasonal champions as per the dictionary deffinition which could number anything from 10 horses if there are numerous horses who dominate over all catagories up to 18 if no particular horse dominates over all the different catagories. example of a catagory is Champion 3yo sprinting filly.
            that my friends is just my opinion!

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From: NineMSN Nicknameimaufo  Sent: 20/10/2002 12:51 AM
From: Ima ufo Sent: 10/19/2002 10:49 PM
Northerly joins the CHAMPION stable after his great CAULFIELD CUP WIN today. 

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From: NineMSN Nicknameimaufo  Sent: 20/10/2002 12:53 AM
 
Northerly going for home in the Caulfield Cup with Greg Childs.
AAP photo.

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From: conscience Sent: 20/10/2002 1:15 AM
hope you are well 'Ima',
 
at the risk of sounding harsh, Kingston town was the last champion for mine. It's nothing to do with stats. it's just what I witnessed, 1200 M to 3200 M, unbelievable and with his injuries!
 
I feel it was a terrible injustice that he didn't win the Mel. cup.
 
Didn't didn't see Dulcify race but I've heard big wraps. That's about as far back as my memory goes.
 
cheers.

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From: Battler Sent: 20/10/2002 2:54 AM
IMO Dulcify was on the verge of Greatness when Tragedy struck...His cox plate win was something to be seen and I was lucky enougth to have been there to see it

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From: matt Sent: 20/10/2002 1:08 PM
in my opinion Northerly has gone from championship class to ALL TIME GREAT  his next step is immortality but that is another season or two away.

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 02:24 PM Reply #12 »

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From: conscience Sent: 10/20/2002 12:15 AM
hope you are well 'Ima',
 
at the risk of sounding harsh, Kingston town was the last champion for mine. It's nothing to do with stats. it's just what I witnessed, 1200 M to 3200 M, unbelievable and with his injuries!
 
I feel it was a terrible injustice that he didn't win the Mel. cup.
 
Didn't didn't see Dulcify race but I've heard big wraps. That's about as far back as my memory goes.
 
cheers.

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From: Battler Sent: 10/20/2002 1:54 AM
IMO Dulcify was on the verge of Greatness when Tragedy struck...His cox plate win was something to be seen and I was lucky enougth to have been there to see it

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From: matt Sent: 10/20/2002 12:08 PM
in my opinion Northerly has gone from championship class to ALL TIME GREAT  his next step is immortality but that is another season or two away.

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From: KT2 Sent: 10/20/2002 1:08 PM
Dulcify donkey licked them by 7L in the 1979 Cox Plate.
 
Sunline came out in the 2000 Cox Plate and also blew them away by 7L. Her 2nd CP. Then a gallant 2nd in 2001.  
 
Sunline deserves the title "Champion".  Those who are still wondering about her greatness, will no doubt wait for years before conceding that she deserves the title.
 
My belief only:
CHAMPIONS:    PHAR LAP,  CARBINE, TULLOCH, KINGSTON TOWN, SUNLINE
 
OUTSTANDING: WAKEFUL, PETER PAN, GLOAMING, CHATHAM, AJAX, BERNBOROUGH, MANIKATO, OCTAGONAL, MIGHT & POWER
 
There are others like Rising Fast that have done amazing things over 2 years, but couldn't match the consistency of those above thoughout a racing career. Horses like Red Anchor & Vain weren't around long enough, but would qualify like many others as being  great 2/3yo.  Saintly just misses out. Northerly may qualify if he continues his winning way.

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From: wily Sent: 10/20/2002 2:18 PM
Cant argue too much, KT2. The only differance I would suggest is that manikako is atleast equal to Sunline.
 
In your outstanding section I would add Vo Ruogue, Rubiton, Better Loosen Up & Our Maizcay

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From: Puntermatt Sent: 10/20/2002 3:17 PM
Agree with KT except i have Bernborough as a Champion and Sunline as outstanding. Sunline just misses Champion status because she did not win a classic race, did not lump a big weight in a gr1 Hcp and was only once able to win beyond 1600m away from Moonee Valley.
 
 

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Sent: 10/20/2002 3:25 PM
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From: johnnysixpence Sent: 10/20/2002 3:30 PM
puntermatt......i think your logic is a bit flawed.
 
Big weight in G1 - how about this years doncaster when sunline carried 58kg....or either of her 2 coolmore wins with 60kg......
 
Classic race - what could be more classic than a cox plate or a doncaster......
 
and winning over 2000m away from the valley, she has been nosed out by lonhro, nosed out by fairway, beaten in Hong Kong and beaten as a 3yo filly after winning the doncaster......
 
 

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From: johnnysixpence Sent: 10/20/2002 3:34 PM
Gees i knew sunline getting old, but i didnt realise she won the avondale cup in 1969...what a horse!!!!!

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From: Battler Sent: 10/20/2002 3:59 PM
lmao @ Ima , cmon Ima is there another Sunline who is racing...cos the one i know of didnt win these races...
 
Auckland Cup
Wellington Cup
New Zealand St Leger
AJC St Leger
2nd in the Auckland Cup 3 times
Ellerslie Sires Produce 1989 &
1994.
Avondale Cup 1986
Avondale Cup 1969

 
 
if she indeed had won these races she would have been a immortal....u better check your resources Ima?

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From: MSN Nicknameimaufo  Sent: 10/20/2002 4:19 PM

Yes of course you are right Battler...Makees stables won those races

 

From: Ima ufo

Sent: 20/10/2002 2:25 PM
Sunline's Achievements

SUNLINE*Inducted into the Australian Racing Hall of Fame - 2002

*Timeform's World Champion Female of 2000 - ATR 129
*Timeform's World Champion Turf Mare of 1999 - ATR 125


*2002 Australian Horse of the Year
The only horse to ever win this title on more than two occassions
*2002 Champion Australian Mare

*2001 Australian Horse of the Year
Only the second horse to win this title twice - the other was New Zealand-bred Might And Power in 1998 & 1999.
*2001 Champion Australian Mare
*2001 Champion Australian Middle Distance Performer

*2001 Mercedes NZ Horse of the Year
The first horse to win this title three times.
*2001 Mercedes NZ Champion WFA Performer
*2001 Mercedes NZ Champion Sprinter-Miler

*2000 Australian Horse of the Year
*2000 Champion Australian Mare
*2000 Champion Australian Middle Distance Performer

*2000 Mercedes NZ Horse of the Year
*2000 Mercedes NZ Champion WFA Performer
*2000 Mercedes NZ Champion Sprinter-Miler

*1999 BMW NZ Horse of the Year
*1999 BMW NZ Champion Three-Year-Old
*1999 BMW NZ Champion Sprinter-Miler

* Champion Older Horse & Mare (63.0 kg), Sprinter (60.5 kg),
Intermediate Distance Performer (63.0 kg), Middle Distance Performer (63.0 kg), 2000-01 Australia-New Zealand Classifications - the highest-rated mare since the inception of the ANZ Classifications in 1980.

*Champion Older Horse & Mare (62.0 kg)
, Sprinter (60.5) & Middle Distance Performer (62.0), 1999-2000 Australia-New Zealand Classifications - rated equal with champion mare Let's Elope (NZ) in 1991-92

*Head of the 1998-99 NZ Three-Year-Old Free Handicap - 61.5kg
*Joint Head of the 1998-99 Australian & New Zealand Three-Year-Old Classification
- with Sky Heights, both allotted 60kg

*Australasia's All-time Leading Earner: $13.7

 


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From: KT2 Sent: 10/20/2002 4:42 PM
Wily - Won't disagree over the Man. Although many argue he could only race up to 1600m.  Similarly Sunline has 2040m limit (as she was untried beyond that).
There are those who won't give full marks unless you are proven over a staying distance (2400m +). Hence Manikato = sprinter/miler Sunline = spinter/middle distance (or sprinter/miler if you don't consider the Cox Plate a true 2000m test).
 
Puntermatt, Bernborough is difficult to assess due to the fact that he raced in Toowoomba (winning 11/19 starts) until he became a 6yo. (hence didn't contest any classic 3yo events). He then "came to town" and won 15/18 starts. He won up to 2200m and could carry weight - no doubt he was a great horse. But without any Derby's, Cups, Guineas or Plates, he's hard to line up against those I list above him.     
 
Re Sunline - I thought carrying the No.1 saddlecloth in the Doncaster G1 Hcp was a good weight carry - same weight as Northerly in CC.  Only Super Impose has carried more to victory in the last 30 years.
 
Great debate topic.    

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From: MSN NicknameAllAmericanBertie Sent: 10/20/2002 5:28 PM
To be called an all time great Northerly needs to now run in Sydney in the autumn to prove he is one of the greats of the Australasian turf, in the clockwise direction.
The BMW looks at his mercy should he race here in the autumn, and so does the Ranvet and Queen Elizabeth, a Doncaster would be also right up his alley, and if he continues on, a mercy dash to Brisbane in the Doomben Cup wouldn't be out of his reach.  Sunline's mantle and thrown after Saturday will be handed down to either Northerly, Lonhro or Defier.

« Last Edit: 2009-Feb-23, 03:59 PM by MagiC~* »

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 02:26 PM Reply #13 »
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From: reef_shark12 Sent: 20/10/2002 9:07 PM
Geez UFO you can go on - it pales my comments into insignificance - BTW what is the upshot of that huge post?????

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From: NineMSN Nicknameimaufo  Sent: 20/10/2002 9:58 PM
The Upshot is.....its interesting that so many people hold so many different views regarding racing, racehorses, champions, what makes a champion....no one ever agrees....
I just cut and pasted a few of the more interesting comments from this post.
Just for an interesting read..nothing more, nothing less.

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From: NineMSN Nickname111-Hareeba Sent: 20/10/2002 9:58 PM
definition of a champion ?.......... arise Stephen Waugh! ....... bloody magnificent unbeaten century to piss off all the knockers

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From: NineMSN Nicknamegallopers Sent: 21/10/2002 12:36 AM
eight group 1 wins not bad and at home over 1200m to 3200m a few been sprooked about have some catching up to do, never won over 3200m but stormed home to run 4-24 one year in the melb cup

Super Impose (NZ) - champion enough for me or maybee just a favorite


Previous Name:   Date of Birth:  05/10/1984 Bonus Schemes:  
Si  Imposing Dam:  Pheroz Fancy (NZ) Grand Si  Taipan (USA)
Owners:  C Biggins, G Longbottom, J Journeaux, Mrs R Moffat, J Newton & K Fawcett
Colours:  Black, White Sleeves, Red Cap
Age:   Colour:  Chestnut Sex:  Gelding Trainer:  

Blinkers:

 No
Career Record Prize Money:  $ 5,659,358 Bonus:  $ 0 Starts:  74 Wins-2nds-3rds:  20-24-8
Season to Date Prize Money:  $ 0 Bonus:  $ 0 Starts:  0 Wins-2nds-3rds:  0-0-0

Previous Wins

Date Venue Track Dist Race
 24/10/92  M V  Good  2040  COX PLATE
 11/10/92  CANB  Dead  2400  CANB CUP
 15/3/92  RAND  Fast  1600  CH NORTON
 5/10/91  RAND  Good  1600  EPSOM
 21/9/91  CANT  Fast  1900  HILL STKS
 24/8/91  W FM  Fast  1400  WARWICKSTK
 30/3/91  RAND  Dead  1600  DONCASTER
 9/3/91  RHIL  Fast  2000  RANVET
 23/2/91  W FM  Good  1600  CH NORTON
 2/2/91  FLEM  Fast  1400  C MANIFOLD
 29/9/90  RAND  Good  1600  EPSOM
 18/8/90  W FM  Good  1400  WARWICKSTK
 14/4/90  RAND  Dead  1600  DONCASTER
 7/10/89  FLEM  Fast  2000  TURNBULL
 4/3/89  CAUL  Fast  2000  CLYON CUP
 26/12/88  RAND  Good  2400  SUMMER CUP
 17/12/88  RHIL  Dead  1900  WELTER
 26/11/88  SAND  Good  2100  ECLIPSE
 7/5/88  BLLA  Dead  1200  IMP
 28/12/87  SEYM  Good  1200  MDN

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Recommend  Message 156 of 222 in Discussion 
From: reef_shark12 Sent: 21/10/2002 7:59 AM
 Before we started this forum I conducted a match race type event on "champions" through the years - I'd be interested to see how this new forum views things in comparison to how it was with the Racenet one. I'll find my spreadsheet at work tomorrow and maybe post it here, actually on second thoughts I think after the Spring Carnival has concluded I'll do it all again and see the results - I'm sure some controversy may reign again, as it did last time, anyone remember it?
 
After we re-do it, I'll then re-post the Racenet mtch-ups and results as a comparison.
 
Like some one said in a discussion somewhere before, and recollecting it was probably my buddy Mightn, he said it is all opinion (well that was how I summarised his words of wisdom) and no one can necessarily be right or wrong but we are all 'experts' and are entitled to an opinion.
 
Let me know if you guys would like to do a "CHAMPION" Match race scenario again, I'll tee it up similar to how we did it before with a few additions and a few deletions etc - it may be a fun way to overcome the Spring hangover leading into Summer racing - YAWN...

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Recommend  Message 157 of 222 in Discussion 
From: wily Sent: 21/10/2002 12:01 PM
Galloper, I dont think a horse that got beat on 54 occasions is entitled to the champion tag. He was top notch on his day. thats it nothing more

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Recommend  Message 158 of 222 in Discussion 
From: finecotton Sent: 21/10/2002 12:12 PM
dob 1996 by serheed out of north bell

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Recommend  Message 159 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknamegallopers Sent: 21/10/2002 12:31 PM
wily,
       top notch on his day or champion on his day, the horse  could mix it with the best. all the so called champions are in the history books and in my opinion a horse that wins a cox plate having his 73rd start deserves a spot.
how bigs your champion book has there been many or just a few ?

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Recommend  Message 160 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Homer J Sent: 21/10/2002 12:54 PM
I've always believed that the only champions I have seen (to date) are octagonal and sunline. (I didn't see Kingston Town). They are champions for this reason:
They raced against the best horses around for basically their entire career and consistently won. Ocky's 10 g1's could have been 13 but for a bit of bad luck in narrow finishes.
Sunline shouldn't be questioned as a champion. All this crap about having to win a classic is a load of bull. Most classic winners end up burnt out way before their time.
A champion can race in all conditions, over varied distances (Sunline has won from 1100m-2040m) for a number of years. Sunline's been around for five seasons now, she's won at WFA, handicap, special conditions, against the best in HK and competed admirably in Dubai. What more do you ask?
I believe Northerly has done enough to be called a champion however I'd like to see him race for another season at least to confirm it.
 

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Recommend  Message 161 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameI_demand_satisfaction1 Sent: 21/10/2002 12:59 PM
You lot should get jobs at the UN, or the Vatican. This is the kind of endless meaninglessness they specialise in.
 
I know what I think is a champion, you know what you think is a champion, and never the twain shall meet. WHO CARES?
 
 

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Recommend  Message 162 of 222 in Discussion 
From: EasyAl Sent: 21/10/2002 3:23 PM
Northerly will always be a "Soft Champion" because he has never been tried on all track conditions. The really great ones can produce on any surface.
 
This bloke was pretty good:
 

Group or Principal Race Wins

Year Race Name Group or
Equivalent
Distance
1979
1980
1980
1980
1980
1980
1980
1981
1981
1981
1982
1982
1982
1982
1979
1979
1980
1980
1980
1980
1981
1981
1981
1982
1980
1981
AJC Spring Champion Stakes
AJC Derby
AJC Sydney Cup
MVRC W.S. Cox Plate
QTC Queensland Derby
STC HE Tancred Stakes
STC Rosehill Guineas
AJC George Main Stakes
MVRC W.S. Cox Plate
VATC Caulfield Stakes
AJC George Main Stakes
MVRC W.S. Cox Plate
VATC Caulfield Stakes
WATC Western Mail Classic
STC Gloaming Stakes
STC Peter Pan Stakes
AJC Expressway Stakes
AJC Warwick Stakes
QTC Grand Prix Stakes
Tatt's NSW Chelmsford Stakes
AJC Warwick Stakes
STC Cup
Tatt's NSW Chelmsford Stakes
AJC Warwick Stakes
STC Cup
STC Premiere Stakes
G1
G1
G1
G1
G1
G1
G1
G1
G1
G1
G1
G1
G1
G1
G2
G2
G2
G2
G2
G2
G2
G2
G2
G2
G3
G3
2000m
2400m
3200m
2050m
2400m
2400m
2000m
1600m
2050m
2000m
1600m
2050m
2000m
1800m
1900m
1500m
1100m
1400m
2200m
1800m
1400m
2400m
1800m
1400m
2400m
1200m

His name was Kingston Town.

 

Al


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Recommend  Message 163 of 222 in Discussion 
From: EasyAl Sent: 21/10/2002 3:35 PM
Still the entire topic is interesting- what if the forum could come up with a minimum criteria of rules for a horse to be awarded the champion tag - only those horses that meet the minimum criteria will be considered - here a few to start:
 
Must have won a minimum of 8 x Group 1 Races
Must have won on Fast, Good, Dead, Slow and Heavy Tracks.
Must have won both ways of going ie Sydney and Melbourne 
Must have won from 1000-1200 to 2000 ?? (not sure about this one)
Must have won one of the big races - Cox, Cup, Guineas or Derby
 
hmm... have a go everyone... think up some more.
 
Al

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Recommend  Message 164 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameI_demand_satisfaction1 Sent: 21/10/2002 3:35 PM
Northerly is certainly freakish in one respect- he has done all his top grade racing in Melbourne, without striking a wet track. Think about it folks, I reckon you've got more chance of winning the lottery.
 
You can't count that against him, Easy Al, Kersley has never dodged them, they have just never happened. Most of the 'experts' reckon he's got the action to be a swimmer anyhow.
 

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Recommend  Message 165 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameInJapan5 Sent: 21/10/2002 3:43 PM
I would make it "Must have won from 1200 to 2400." or change the definition to champion sprinter/miler.

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Recommend  Message 166 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknamegallopers Sent: 21/10/2002 3:53 PM
windbag,
              your quote;( Most of the 'experts' reckon he's got the action to be a swimmer anyhow.)
q1; who are the experts that can tell if a horse has the action to excell on wet tracks.
q2, can you name any of them so when a horse is racing on a wet track for the first time  i can call them and get an opinion of whether there action will suit the wet.
 
 
race 1   number 1 harry the horse  never raced on a wet track but his action suggests he will win.
very interesting.

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 02:28 PM Reply #14 »
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Recommend  Message 167 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameI_demand_satisfaction1 Sent: 21/10/2002 3:59 PM
Hey don't ask me to justify the opinion, gallopers, it's just what I've heard from a few people. In my inexpert opinion, I would be very surprised if he couldn't handle it. I know you can't tell for sure till they do it, but his half brother is a freakin' Rory's Jester, who loathe wet tracks, and he's a swimmer.

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Recommend  Message 168 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknamegallopers Sent: 21/10/2002 4:06 PM
windbag,
              quote 2 (it's just what I've heard from a few people)
 they were experts now there  just people.
very interesting

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Recommend  Message 169 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameI_demand_satisfaction1 Sent: 21/10/2002 4:15 PM
Are you a maiden aunt, gallopers? They were 'experts', they were also people, they are not distinct categories.
 
Being a pedant, you've obviously noticed my use of quotation marks around the word 'expert', and the implication.
 
 

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Recommend  Message 170 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknamegallopers Sent: 21/10/2002 4:27 PM
i think the only expert saying that northerly has the action to handle wet tracks is you windbag
change your name windbag the expert

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Recommend  Message 171 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknameimaufo  Sent: 12/04/2003 6:32 PM
From: Ima ufo Sent: 12/04/2003 4:31 PM
Do Champions have to beat other horses when they travel interstate? Northerly hasnt cracked it yet in Sydney...yett ran a whisker to a track record at Rosehill ( beaten by Freemason) So is Northerly still a champion?

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Recommend  Message 172 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Battler Sent: 13/04/2003 6:47 PM
Well, Freemason will now have one thing in retirement with Northerly (who has two) that Sunline won`t ever have - A TRACK RECORD!

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Recommend  Message 173 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Mannerism Sent: 13/04/2003 6:54 PM
Well, Freemason will now also have one thing in retirement with Sunline (who has seven) that Northerly (probably) won`t ever have - a group 1 win in Sydney!
 
I know which statistic is more telling!

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The number of members that recommended this message. 0 recommendations  Message 174 of 222 in Discussion 
Sent: 13/04/2003 7:06 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.

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Recommend  Message 175 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknameimaufo  Sent: 13/04/2003 7:10 PM
Unfortunatly for Freemason, he will never come close to Sunlines pay packet. Or list of group 1 wins. Or a victory in group 1 company overseas.
 

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Recommend  Message 176 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Battler Sent: 13/04/2003 7:20 PM
true Mannerism but Northerly still has the chance to get the win in sydney

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Recommend  Message 177 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknameimaufo  Sent: 22/10/2003 12:02 PM
 
From: FastEddy Sent: 3/15/2002 10:52 PM
Champions NOT = Might & Power & Octagonal ! Good Group 1 winners only
Champions ARE = Kingston Town , Tulloch , Phar Lap

 
Thought it might be time to dust this off and bring it out for an air.
 
Is Lonhro a Champion? A good Horse with Champion qualities? If he wins the Cox Plate will he be a champion or was he always one?

From: imaufo Sent: 3/15/2002 3:28 PM
 
A Champion does everything right in his/ her races.
A Champion is the most talked about horse on the eve of raceday.
A Champion can be backed with confidence.
A Champion wins more races than the other horses at a high level and wins more money. $$$$$$$$$$$$
A Champion has to have his/ her own strapper who achieves celebrity status (  who strapped Kingston town?)
A Champion has his/ her own jockey who becomes famous.
A Champion makes his/ her trainer famous and when introduced to people comes with the tag of being " trainer to so and so"
A Champion achieves headlines in the paper and gets the front cover of the Sportsman.
A Champion is talked about after the racing days are over and is compared to other champions.
A champions progeny is followed with interest. ( see Octagonal)

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Recommend  Message 178 of 222 in Discussion 
From: imposing Sent: 23/10/2003 8:44 PM
who strapped the town
SPIDER
 

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Recommend  Message 179 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknamekabool88 Sent: 23/10/2003 9:09 PM
Forget the riddle and rhyme.
The champion tag is used way too often,a horse win's a group.1 and everyone want's to call him a champion.
Champion's win on all types of track rating's and over several different distances and they often win when resuming when everything is agains't them over an unsuitable trip.Champion's also run records on many occassion's.Also take out the line about them having to make a strapper famous, because we all know the strapper's never get the credit they deserve for putting in the hard yard's behind the scene's.

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Recommend  Message 180 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameJoeAblabab1 Sent: 25/10/2003 11:23 AM
Don't forget Manikato!
 
Still reckon Sunline answers all the criteria of a "champion" as do Carbine and "The Man" Manikato. A champion's got to perform against the best and beat the best over many seasons.
 
You can make arguments for Better Loosen Up, Super Impose, Northerly and Might And Power et al - but those gallopers really only started to hit their straps in their four-year-old year.
 
The Man's got to be up there with "The King" and "Big Red". Just because he was essentially a sprinter (and didn't win the so called "champion defining" races like the Cox Plate and Melbourne Cup) doesn't mean you deny him the tag. He was quite simply the most dominant short-course horse we've ever had.
 
 
 

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Recommend  Message 181 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknametriple-7- Sent: 17/04/2004 10:59 AM
Maybe it's time for this thread to surface again . . . . . . . . . .

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 02:29 PM Reply #15 »
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Recommend  Message 182 of 222 in Discussion 
From: wily Sent: 17/04/2004 11:01 AM
I wish I had your search engine 777.
 
My mate Golden Fawn is back today but I'm too scared to start another thread about him

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Recommend  Message 183 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknametriple-7- Sent: 17/04/2004 11:12 AM
lol Wily. If I remember I try to tag the url link to some of the "classic" threads, they are always useful at some stage in the future. This one is actually listed under the Classics menu.  

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Recommend  Message 184 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknametriple-7- Sent: 24/10/2005 1:57 PM
Given current forum discussion thought it timely to bump this back to the surface, I'm sure many would be interested.
 
This thread first started in March 02, and is a great read.

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Recommend  Message 185 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname_imaufo_ Sent: 24/10/2005 2:01 PM
Well Makybe Diva rates on all scores bar the strapper.

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Recommend  Message 186 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameGoBaggers Sent: 24/10/2005 2:10 PM
She hasn't won overseas though.......and if winning in Sydney is ohh sooooo important then surely winning overseas against the world's best is up there on the richter scale?

Elvstroem, Starcraft, Choisir, Falvelon, Sunline, Alinghi and Mummify all managed the feat.....but Makybe Diva could not!

Forget Sydney - Northerly didn't win overseas - must be a crab. Just like Diva. Oh no sorry i forgot, she's better than Phar Lap. And I Got Chills is better than Luskin Star, Vain and Manikato rolled into one.

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Recommend  Message 187 of 222 in Discussion 
From: wily Sent: 24/10/2005 2:15 PM
A Champion wins more races than the other horses at a high level
 
 
Given she gets beaten on 60% of the occasions she graces the track she certainly fails this criteria

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Recommend  Message 188 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknametriple-7- Sent: 24/10/2005 2:15 PM
Geez Ima, what's wrong with the strapper ? You are a hard marker, lol. 
 
And you're suggesting a new point of qualification for Greatness, add that to the list as number 1053 being the strapper ?, lol.

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Recommend  Message 189 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameSkyHeights007 Sent: 24/10/2005 7:25 PM
A CHAMPION wins the races they want to win, almost all of the time, regardless of obstacles such as weight, track condition or distance.
 
The Diva.

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Recommend  Message 190 of 222 in Discussion 
From: wily Sent: 24/10/2005 7:55 PM
Lucky those champs can read the form guide to see the name of the race that they are in

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Recommend  Message 191 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknamePhil_OKalia Sent: 24/10/2005 7:59 PM
In horse racing I'd say a champion must perform well consistently at the highest level over a large part (if not all) of their career.
 
Highest level = Group 1 and Weight for Age.
Perform well = win or place
Consistently = high strike rate - around 50% or higher win and 75% or higher place.

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Recommend  Message 192 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameHangman1050 Sent: 4/09/2007 11:43 PM
I think it is relatively easy to compare horses of different eras, although it is still only opinion, eg.just ask yourself the following questions.
 
1. Could Kingston Town do what Bernborough did?
(Carry huge weights in Group ones to victory)
2. Could Kingston Town do what Chatham did? (ditto Bernborough)
3. Could Kingston Town do what Tobin Bronze did?(Ditto BB)
4. Could Kingston Town do what Northerly did? (Win a caulfield Cup with Top weight)
 
My opinion is I don't think so.
 
Reverse the question
 
1 Could Bernborough do what Kingston Town did? (win a string of group One WFA races)
2. Could Chatham do what Kingston Town did?(win 3 Cox Plates? he won 2 and ran second to Phar Lap in another)
3. Could Tobin Bronze do what Kingston Town did?win 3 Cox plates? he ran in 2 and won both)
4. Could Northerly do what Kingston Town did? (ditto T/Bronze against much better fields than Kingston Town)
 
My opinion is a resounding YES
 
Of course the assumption is that they reversed their racing program.
 
In saying that KT was undoubtedly a Champion but I feel it's an insult to compare him to the big 4 of Carbine, Phar Lap, Bernborough and Tulloch,
They were far above Champion class.
Call them freaks, Icons or Legends they were the greatest and I doubt they will ever be equalled.
 
I think the above comparison is possible with almost any 2 horses of different eras to help form an opinion.
 
This should stir the possum.
 
Winning group Ones no matter how many, doesn't in it self make you a Champion, you have to be able to win open Group Ones and treat other very good horses with contempt, not just beat them consistently, that only makes you the best and the best doesn't automatically mean you are a Champion.
 
Any further comment would be appreciated.
 
Hangman.
 

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Recommend  Message 193 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Geoff Sent: 4/09/2007 11:51 PM
Could Kingston Town do what Bernborough did at 2 3 4 & 5?
 
i.e  Five unplaced runs from 19 starts at Toowoomba.  
 
My opinion is NO
 

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Recommend  Message 194 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Geoff Sent: 5/09/2007 12:00 AM
Could Kingston Town do what Chatham did at 2 &3?
 
i.e 3 wins (1 a Group race)  from 13 starts with 6 unplaced
 
My opinion is NO

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Recommend  Message 195 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameHangman1050 Sent: 5/09/2007 12:12 AM
Geoff you are just being an idiot now.
Of course we are talking at their best, I thought that was a given, forgot to count on your IQ, or lack thereof!
only being facetious with the "idiot" comment
Hangman.

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Recommend  Message 196 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameHangman1050 Sent: 5/09/2007 12:15 AM
Geoff back then punting was more important than strike rate, so you can only go on what they are capable of when at their best.
Phar Laps first few runs weren't that good either, is that how you rate him?

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 02:30 PM Reply #16 »
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Recommend  Message 197 of 222 in Discussion 
From: arakaan Sent: 5/09/2007 12:52 AM
From: <NOBR>NineMSN NicknameHangman1050</NOBR> Sent: 4/09/2007 9:43 PM
Winning group Ones no matter how many, doesn't in it self make you a Champion, you have to be able to win open Group Ones and treat other very good horses with contempt,

nah never saw Kingston Town do that on numerous occasions did we.

Tommy Smith trained KT and Tulloch and couldn't separate them but I'm sure hangman will tell us he was lying and he knows he was lying because his vet told him.

what a complete joke.


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Recommend  Message 198 of 222 in Discussion 
From: arakaan Sent: 5/09/2007 1:16 AM
and Hangman go watch Kingston Town's Sydney cup win.
 
watch it 20 times, then try and think of any horse you have ever seen who could make 4 separate sprints in a 2 mile race and win with a leg in the air.
 
 

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Recommend  Message 199 of 222 in Discussion 
From: arakaan Sent: 5/09/2007 1:32 AM
hmm Bernbourough is above KT according to Hangman.
 
with the exception of maybe the Newmarket are any of it's wins in the absolute major Australian Races. To me that's a very moderate collection of major wins for a horse to be considered a class above Kingston Town and "unlikely to be equalled" as stated by Hangman.
 

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Recommend  Message 200 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Geoff Sent: 5/09/2007 10:12 AM
Hangman
Longevity is an important consideration when determining Champion status.
 
If we are to discount Bernborough's first four years, as you appear to want, Bernborough's career lasted 10 months.
 
PS
Why are you so rude to those with an opinion different to yours?
PPS
Are you related to Mattgloss?
 
Just asking.......I don't care one way or another
 

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Recommend  Message 201 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameGerry1953 Sent: 5/09/2007 10:40 AM
A true 'Champion' has to do more that just win races, he or she has to become part of the racing ethos of the nation, the public at large, 'Sea Biscuit' in America.. In Australia I think only 4 horses have ever achieved that. Their exploits on the track was not enough, although important, they brought something special, that only they had. 
 
CARBINE (probably)
PHAR LAP (for sure)
TULLOCH (most likely)
KINGSTON TOWN (I think)
 
Many other great horses with great exploits on the turf, and rightly admired by the racing community, discussing their fine deeds,  great horses yes! but true champions, unfortunately not.
 
Cheers Gerry.

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Recommend  Message 202 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknamecoinswell Sent: 5/09/2007 10:45 AM
Kingston Town was able to win consistently at Group level from 1000m up to 3200m.

I haven't seen any other horse match his turn of foot so consistently throughout their racing career.

He is clearly the best horse I have seen.

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Recommend  Message 203 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname_imaufo_ Sent: 5/09/2007 12:33 PM
I think Makybe Diva will be added to that list Gerry...in years to come her name will always be associated with those three Melbourne Cups. Her name will become entrenched over time and always be discussed come Melbourne Cup time.
 
She did something special that no other horse prior...including those on the list...have managed to pull off.
 
The MD statue will stand as testament to her feat.

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Recommend  Message 204 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nicknametriple-7- Sent: 5/09/2007 2:02 PM
Agree Coinswell.
 
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Recommend Delete    Message 202 of 203 in Discussion 
From: <NOBR>NineMSN Nicknamecoinswell</NOBR> Sent: 5/09/2007 8:45 AM
Kingston Town was able to win consistently at Group level from 1000m up to 3200m.

I haven't seen any other horse match his turn of foot so consistently throughout their racing career.

He is clearly the best horse I have seen.

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Recommend  Message 205 of 222 in Discussion 
From: wily Sent: 5/09/2007 5:25 PM
From: arakaan Sent: 9/4/2007 11:16 PM
and Hangman go watch Kingston Town's Sydney cup win.
 
watch it 20 times, then try and think of any horse you have ever seen who could make 4 separate sprints in a 2 mile race and win with a leg in the air.
 

 

 

Simply, it was the best win I have ever seen

 

AND, you're right, no other horse could have possibly made those runs in the race that he made and still won


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Recommend  Message 206 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Bubble Sent: 5/09/2007 6:14 PM
I asked my girlfriend who isn't much into sport if she knew any AFL players. She said the only one she knew was Tony Lockett.
 
I asked her if she knew any Racehorses.
 
She said Phar Lap immediately , pause, Makybe Diva........
 
Good enough for me.
 
(*****please note******) those questions were asked when I first met her some 18 months ago. She now does running commentary on AFL games, is one of the top 10 female poker players in the state and has $10 bets at the TAB whenever she passes one. She even has a system for picking Dog quinellas .................another life ruined.

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Recommend  Message 207 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameAntitab Sent: 5/09/2007 6:19 PM
Yes
 
But if you met your girlfriend in 1983 she would have said Phar Lap, pause......Kingston Town.

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Recommend  Message 208 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameGerry1953 Sent: 5/09/2007 6:46 PM
Ima,
You wouldn't believe it I was all most going to add her as well, the champion seed is sown, its yet to bare fruit, and I think as  you say  her name will become entrenched, and that is what has to happen before obtaining the tag of a true champion, become a part of Australian folk law. Take Sunline for example a great mare, also and to many within racing a 'champion' but not in the general community. Gunsynd was for a time  able to develop a folk hero status, but just didn't win enough races to gain the elusive tag of true champion.
Bernbourough, almost made it, but for some reason his star just faded that little bit and he lost public interest. But to racing people a champion.
 
Cheers Gerry.

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Recommend  Message 209 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Geoff Sent: 5/09/2007 11:49 PM
Definition of a champion( ?)
So now its developed into an equine version of Australian Idol.
 
 

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Recommend  Message 210 of 222 in Discussion 
From: yippyio2 Sent: 6/09/2007 12:08 PM
Sunline is a champion. My favourite horse ever Lonhro I wouldn't consider him a champion just a very very good horse, althoug if you are talking in terms of could another horse have done what Lonhro did I find it very hard to believe that any other horse I have seen could have won the Australia cup like he did after being smashed.
 
Makybe can't be considered a champion she won three M Cups but the Cup is a punters race it is always a very ordinary field, and yeh she won a cox plate but again it has to be the worst in the last ten years. She couldn't get within coee of Lonhro in the Aust cup and I don't think he was a champion so find it very hard to believe that she is.
 
In my opinion the definition of a champion is a horse who consistently over a long period of time competes and wins at the highest level over varying distances, i think Kindston Town won from 1200m to 3200m no doubt he was a champion.
 
Cheers

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Recommend  Message 211 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameMattDjebel31 Sent: 6/09/2007 12:14 PM
Whoeveristhebesthorseofaparticularyearisachampion.

Offline westie

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« 2009-Feb-23, 02:32 PM Reply #17 »
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Recommend  Message 212 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameTheFireman111x111 Sent: 6/09/2007 12:44 PM
For definition of champion see this link
 
 
 
Love the first win classes above the field.

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Recommend  Message 213 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameTheFireman111x111 Sent: 6/09/2007 12:47 PM
Great name for a horse Matt
 
Whoeveristhebesthorseofaparticularyearisachampion.

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Recommend  Message 214 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname_imaufo_ Sent: 6/09/2007 1:39 PM
 
 
Heres one of my video clips to music...one of my very favourite champs and one of his best wins.

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Recommend  Message 215 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname_imaufo_ Sent: 6/09/2007 1:43 PM
PS you have to watch the horse and have the music in the background. 

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Recommend  Message 216 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN Nickname_imaufo_ Sent: 6/09/2007 2:18 PM
 
Heres another one of Deep Impact...as easy a win as you are ever going to see. 

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Recommend  Message 217 of 222 in Discussion 
From: Bubble Sent: 6/09/2007 2:42 PM
Ima,
 
Now that is a horse
 
To see what those Japanese horses did to ours last year and then what Deep Impact was capable of doing to them is a bit of an eye opener.
 
DEEP IMPACTO.

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Recommend  Message 218 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameMattDjebel31 Sent: 6/09/2007 8:48 PM
How can he be a champion he never won a handicap ?

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The number of members that recommended this message. 0 recommendations  Message 219 of 222 in Discussion 
Sent: 11/10/2008 7:22 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.

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Recommend  Message 220 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameMattDjebel31 Sent: 11/10/2008 7:23 PM
Michael Rodd eases Whobegotyou to a comfortable Caulfield Guineas victory.

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From: NineMSN Nicknamegintara™ Sent: 11/10/2008 7:28 PM
The caller certainly labelled him one

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Recommend  Message 222 of 222 in Discussion 
From: NineMSN NicknameMattDjebel31 Sent: 23/02/2009 12:24 PM
bump

Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Feb-23, 03:06 PM Reply #18 »
In IMA's first answer, message two she posted the correct definition.

champion, informal champ (WINNER)
noun [C]
someone or something, esp. a person or animal, that has beaten all other competitors in a competition
a tennis champion
an Olympic champion
a champion tennis player/racehorse
She is the world champion for the third year in succession.
The defending champion will play his first match of the tournament tomorrow.
Who are the reigning European football champions?

champion
// noun 1. someone who holds first place in any sport, etc., having defeated all opponents. 2. anything that takes first place in competition. 3. someone who fights for or defends any person or cause: a champion of the oppressed.
--verb (t) 4. to act as champion of; defend; support.
--adjective 5.  Colloquial first-rate. [Middle English, from Latin campus field (of battle)]


Where on earth did all these other ones come from ?

Offline triple7

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« 2010-Oct-12, 03:42 PM Reply #19 »
The mention to some of the old clasic threads from the msn forum days reminded me of this thread, and it's content.

Some around today might enjoy the read and discussion.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2010-Oct-12, 03:51 PM Reply #20 »
It was a cracker of a thread.

Jimmy pike, were you around for the fun?

Offline triple7

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« 2010-Oct-12, 04:00 PM Reply #21 »
From: The Jackal
Sent: 18/03/2002 12:32 AM
 
Rising Fast

1954 Turnbull Stakes WFA
1954 Caulfield Stakes WFA
1954 Caulfield Cup 55.5 kilos
1954 Cox Plate WFA
1954 Mackinnon WFA
1954 Melbourne Cup 59.5 kilos
1954 Fisher Plate
10 starts  in the Spring of 54 for 8 wins 1 2nd(beaten a half head) and one 4th
1955 Caulfield Cup 61.5 kilos
1955 Mackinnon Stakes WFA
1955 Melbourne Cup 2nd carrying 65.5 kilos beaten 3 quarters of a length by a horse carrying 48 kilos.

That is a champion.




How good was that for a record!!!!

Offline dubbledee

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« 2010-Oct-12, 04:04 PM Reply #22 »
Do you have all the old threads, 777?

If so, can ya find one where I tipped a winner.  :lol:

Offline Authorized

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« 2010-Oct-12, 04:04 PM Reply #23 »

1955 Melbourne Cup 2nd carrying 65.5 kilos beaten 3 quarters of a length by a horse carrying 48 kilos.

And should have got that on protest.

Offline calgary

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« 2010-Oct-12, 04:22 PM Reply #24 »




How good was that for a record!!!!

Think I said it on another thread - I would say easily the most underrated horse in the history of Australian thoroughbred racing.


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