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General Racing History - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK

Author Topic: General Racing History  (Read 36003 times)

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Offline pwa54

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« 2020-May-18, 12:18 PM Reply #200 »
Yes, the days of Carbine's Melbourne Cup when the field was only 39.

Thanks for posting the links PP, interesting reading.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Jun-14, 11:37 PM Reply #201 »
Much has been written about Wu Gok on the Chris Waller thread.

Wu Gok has won the first two legs of what could be described as the Sydney Winter treble - the Lord Mayor's Cup, the Winter Cup and the WJ McKell Stks - the latter to be run on the 27th June.

No horse has won all three and if Wu Gok starts he will attempt to be the very first.

These three races date back to post WW2, and there have been a few horses win two of these races and only one to win three - Destiny's Kiss who amazingly won the 2013 and the 2019 Winter Cup and the 2018 McKell. The very first winner of any of the three races was the immortal Flight who won the Lord Mayor's Cup back in 1944.

These are the multi winners:

      3 Destiny's Kiss (AUS) 2008
      2 Beau Tirage (NZ) 1957
      2 Double Take (NZ) 1988
      2 Ecuador (NZ) 2009
      2 Fair Patton (AUS) 1959
      2 Grand Connection (AUS) 1989
      2 Natski (IRE) 1984
      2 Passetreul (AUS) 1968
      2 Praise Indeed (AUS) 1990
      2 Royal Bark (AUS) 1956
      2 Saydor (AUS) 1956
      2 Wu Gok (AUS) 2013
     
YEARLord Mayors CupWinter CupMcKell Stks
2020Wu Gok (AUS) 2013Wu Gok (AUS) 2013
2019Grey Lion (IRE) 2012Destiny's Kiss (AUS) 2008Hush Writer (JPN) 2015
2018Our Century (IRE) 2011Harper's Choice (AUS) 2013Destiny's Kiss (AUS) 2008
2017Top Of My List (AUS) 2012Gallic Chieftain (FR) 2013Allergic (AUS) 2011
2016Ecuador (NZ) 2009Tucanchoo (NZ) 2009Ecuador (NZ) 2009
2015Silverball (FR) 2009Kapour (IRE) 2010Sense Of Occasion (AUS) 2010
2014Zephyron (NZ) 2008Secessio (GB) 2009La Amistad (AUS) 2009
2013Moriarty (IRE) 2008Destiny's Kiss (AUS) 2008Fiumicino (NZ) 2003
2012Kinnersley (AUS) 2006Reuben Percival (NZ) 2006Adroitly (AUS) 2007
2011not heldLegsman (NZ) 2005Ironstein (AUS) 2005
2010not heldTwin Wing (NZ) 2002Scouting Wide (NZ) 2004
2009not heldNiwot (AUS) 2004Ready To Lift (AUS) 2003
2008not heldNuclear Sky (AUS) 2002Luvuleo (AUS) 2003
2007not heldnot heldZavite (NZ) 2002
2006not heldBrave Lancer (NZ) 2000Taken At The Flood (AUS) 2001
2005Zingam (NZ) 1999Verb (NZ) 1999Hofmeister (NZ) 2000
2004Stoway (AUS) 1996Itemise (USA) 2000Daralimara (IRE) 1999
2003Majestically (NZ) 1996Romeo George (NZ) 1996Silent Impact (NZ) 1996
2002Grampians (AUS) 1996Outlaws (AUS) 1997We're Dancing (AUS) 1995
2001Henderson Bay (NZ) 1995Recall (NZ) 1996Touch The Groom (AUS) 1995
2000Gypsy's Daughter (NZ) 1994Touch Of Sun (AUS) 1995Ilze (NZ) 1995
1999Kahoolawe (NZ) 1993Midnight Sun (AUS) 1995Praise Indeed (AUS) 1990
1998Marsking (AUS) 1994Ask The Waiter (AUS) 1991Madjic (NZ) 1992
1997Buzzoff (AUS) 1991Praise Indeed (AUS) 1990Jacanarchie (AUS) 1992
1996Dupain (NZ) 1991Nassirich (NZ) 1989Prince Rupert (AUS) 1989
1995Slam Dunk (NZ) 1990Grand Connection (AUS) 1989Grand Connection (AUS) 1989
1994Lord Windsor (NZ) 1988Double Take (NZ) 1988Double Take (NZ) 1988
1993Sky Danza (NZ) 1987Kaladan (AUS) 1988De Lisle (AUS) 1988
1992Guile (NZ) 1986Anythings Possible (NZ) 1987Destiny Boy (AUS) 1985
1991Chiming Knight (NZ) 1986Webster's Wish (AUS) 1986Royal Marine (NZ) 1983
1990Estimable (NZ) 1985Oakwood (AUS) 1985Tristeke (NZ) 1983
1989Moniuszko (AUS) 1983Macquarie Prince (AUS) 1984Miss Remus (NZ) 1984
1988Ironic Lady (NZ) 1984Natski (IRE) 1984Natski (IRE) 1984
1987Lord Reims (NZ) 1981Port Fair (NZ) 1980Kutzbah (NZ) 1978
1986Late Show (AUS) 1980Bold Endeavour (AUS) 1981String Of Pearls (AUS) 1980
1985True Show (AUS) 1981Gold Sabre (AUS) 1980Linga Longa (AUS) 1979
1984Calaboose (NZ) 1979Our Year (NZ) 1979Hot Ally (AUS) 1979
1983Baldoon (NZ) 1976Oh Really (NZ) 1974Must Be It (AUS) 1978
1982My Friend Frances (NZ) 1977Goodbye Sailor (NZ) 1977My Sir Avon (NZ) 1977
1981Brighten (AUS) 1976Wotta Krakka (NZ) 1975Lord Folkestone (AUS) 1975
1980Sutimie (NZ) 1975Taihape (NZ) 1975Granite King (AUS) 1976
1979Bandoo Bay (NZ) 1973Lady Christopher (AUS) 1972Bi Centennial (NZ) 1974
1978Bazza (NZ) 1972Clear Day (NZ) 1971Princess Clarendon (AUS) 1973
1977Bombshell (IRE) 1971Prickly Heat (AUS) 1971Bilgola Boy (NZ) 1972
1976Lazy Pat (AUS) 1969Gallant Gaul (AUS) 1969Spassky (AUS) 1971
1975Storming (NZ) 1968Kirribilli (AUS) 1969Black Tetra (NZ) 1969
1974Passetreul (AUS) 1968Little Gum Nut (AUS) 1969Moscow (AUS) 1969
1973Fine Style (AUS) 1969Dalglow (AUS) 1966Sunset Red (AUS) 1968
1972Passetreul (AUS) 1968Genty's Pride (AUS) 1965Hasty Heart (NZ) 1968
1971Oklahoma (AUS) 1967Flirtatious (AUS) 1965Spillane (NZ) 1966
1970Peter's Empire (AUS) 1966Top Yarn (AUS) 1963Bluelough (NZ) 1964
1969Great Exploits (AUS) 1964Royal Display (AUS) 1962Yagoona Boy (AUS) 1964
1968Coronation Cadet (AUS) 1964Auto Filou (NZ) 1963Pirate Bird (AUS) 1962
1967Clovelly (NZ) 1962Man About Town (AUS) 1962not held
1966Pyramus (NZ) 1962Saydor (AUS) 1956Trevors (AUS) 1959 ntb
1965Fair Patton (AUS) 1959Prince Regoli (AUS) 1958Saydor (AUS) 1956
1964Fair Patton (AUS) 1959Royal Bark (AUS) 1956Olympus (AUS) 1958
1963Beau Tirage (NZ) 1957Royal Bark (AUS) 1956Brandy Queen (AUS) 1958
1962Beau Tirage (NZ) 1957Johnno (AUS) 1955Moviegoer (NZ) 1958
1961Grand Prix (NZ) 1956Waipari (NZ) 1954
1960Compass (AUS) 1954Balfast (NZ) 1953
1959Royal Jester (NZ) 1954Tranquilette (AUS) 1953
1958Caranna (AUS) 1952Dalstar (NZ) 1951
1957Zaheida (AUS) 1953

1956Grand Charles (AUS) 1951

1955Compound (AUS) 1950

1954Delwood (AUS) 1949

1953Sir Pilot (AUS) 1948

1952Star King (AUS) 1946

1951Dinanda (AUS) 1946

1950Tamarind (AUS) 1945 ntb

1949Transaction (AUS) 1944

1948Kerry Lad (NZ) 1942

1947Courier (NZ) 1945

1946War Eagle (AUS) 1940

1945Allan Veil (AUS) 1938

1944Flight (AUS) 1940


Online wily ole dog

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« 2020-Jun-15, 07:58 AM Reply #202 »
I suspect the treble may not have been completed due to most horses in work may have headed up to The Brisbane carnival


Love seeing these lists of old names from my youth. Passetreul💖 Clear Day, Bilgola Boy  etc

Offline pwa54

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« 2020-Jun-15, 08:29 AM Reply #203 »
Same here, Wily.

Jogged a memory of Peter's Empire.

Peter's Empire was runner-up in Vain's Golden Slipper but the Lord Mayor's Cup was the only decent race he won.  In that race he beat a real warrior in Roman Consul.

Offline F50_Aircraft

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« 2020-Jun-16, 10:37 AM Reply #204 »
A thread to post historical facts, and/or to offer observations or opinions of our great racing history.



This is probably a historical question or a quiz for racing fans/Melbourne Cup fans.

As we know...significant weight drops from previous start to the Melbourne Cup are prominent and most Melbourne Cup winners in the past 50 years have dropped weight from their previous start to the Melbourne Cup. My question is (because I don't know): which Melbourne Cup winner has dropped most in weight from its previous start before for Melbourne Cup.

It's an interesting question.

Offline F50_Aircraft

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« 2020-Jun-16, 10:39 AM Reply #205 »
This is probably a historical question or a quiz for racing fans/Melbourne Cup fans.

As we know...significant weight drops from previous start to the Melbourne Cup are prominent and most Melbourne Cup winners in the past 50 years have dropped weight from their previous start to the Melbourne Cup. My question is (because I don't know): In the past 50 years, which Melbourne Cup winner has dropped most in weight from its previous start before for Melbourne Cup.

It's an interesting question.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Jun-17, 11:59 AM Reply #206 »
It is a bit hard sometimes to find the entire race records of the past F50.

In fact that is the very reason I started the "Race Records Of Champion Racehorses" thread.

With invaluable contributions from forum members Tontonan, timw and pwa, it has become one of the best resources on the internet for such information.

The first horse I would go looking for would be Piping Lane who carried a featherweight to win a Cup in the 70's. If the lead up race was at WFA or Set  Weights and Penalties (SWP) then the drop would be enormous.

There are other forum members who might have the quick answer.

The last 3yo to win the race was Skipton way back when. I have the information about what weigh he carried on another PC (having some issues at the moment) but it would have been "not very much" - in the 40's when measured in kilograms.

His previous run was when he won the Victoria Derby and if that was the same weight scale as it is today he would have carried 55.5 kg.

As I said, I actually have this info elsewhere and when my new computer arrives (God knows when that will be) I'll have a go at answering ti.

Offline Colinjohn

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« 2020-Jun-17, 01:09 PM Reply #207 »
Piping Lane won The Cup in 1972 with 48kg. after running 3rd. in The Moonee Valley Cup with 49.5kg. behind Double Irish. Skipton won The Cup in 1941 with 47.5kg. after winning The Derby with 55.5kg. So his drop in weight was 8kg.

Offline F50_Aircraft

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« 2020-Jun-17, 01:50 PM Reply #208 »
Piping Lane won The Cup in 1972 with 48kg. after running 3rd. in The Moonee Valley Cup with 49.5kg. behind Double Irish. Skipton won The Cup in 1941 with 47.5kg. after winning The Derby with 55.5kg. So his drop in weight was 8kg.

And in modern times, the stats say:

Rogan Josh won the G1 WFA Mackinnon Stakes carrying 58kg on Victoria Derby day on the Saturday. He then dropped 8kg to 50kg for the Melbourne Cup on Tuesday.

Offline Colinjohn

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« 2020-Jun-17, 01:54 PM Reply #209 »
Rain Lover won his first Cup in 1968 with 51.5kg after winning The McKinnon with 57kg. The biggest drop I can see was in 1961. Lord Fury won The Cup 7-8 [48kg] after being unplaced in The McKinnon with 9-0 [57kg]. A drop of 9kg.

Offline pwa54

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« 2020-Jun-17, 03:26 PM Reply #210 »
Historically, I think Zulu, the 1881 winner is the one you'd be looking for F50.

He won his cup with 5 stone 10 lb, 36 kilos, his previous start was the Essendon Stakes with 9 stone, 57 kgs.

So a 21kg difference. I'd take any odds that that that will never happen again!

Online wily ole dog

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« 2020-Jun-17, 05:01 PM Reply #211 »
Holy crap😱

The great Gunsynd gave Piping Lane 12kg🤔

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Jun-17, 05:12 PM Reply #212 »
Holy crap😱

The great Gunsynd gave Piping Lane 12kg🤔

Then they backed him up 4 days later in the QE2 (then called the Fisher Plate) and he ran 4th with 59.5 kg to the "Vo Rogue of the day", Scotch And Dry who had 52 kg.

So that leads me into the next discussion.

Horses who "piled it on" up front. Short course sprinters excluded from discussion.

Vo Rogue
Scotch And Dry

There was a horse in the 80's called Lola's Image who won 4 in a row setting up big margins. Pretty sure Ray Selkrig used to ride her and they might have even all been at Rosehill over the 1500m.


Online wily ole dog

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« 2020-Jun-17, 05:35 PM Reply #213 »
Oenjay Star🤔

Offline F50_Aircraft

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« 2020-Jun-17, 07:06 PM Reply #214 »
Historically, I think Zulu, the 1881 winner is the one you'd be looking for F50.

He won his cup with 5 stone 10 lb, 36 kilos, his previous start was the Essendon Stakes with 9 stone, 57 kgs.

So a 21kg difference. I'd take any odds that that that will never happen again!

I agree with you mate.

I'd also go as far as saying that Rogan Josh's weight drop of 8kg may not happen again or anytime soon and that was in modern times. A horse in modern times dropping 8kg from its previous start to the Melbourne Cup would be extremely rare.
« Last Edit: 2020-Jun-17, 08:21 PM by F50_Aircraft »

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2020-Jun-17, 07:22 PM Reply #215 »

Vo Rogue
Scotch And Dry


The great Pirate Bird  :noteworthy:   :noteworthy:

Offline arthur

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« 2020-Jun-17, 07:40 PM Reply #216 »

Offline gunbower

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« 2020-Jun-17, 07:52 PM Reply #217 »
Poison, Just so people do not keep trying to re write history ; Scotch and Dry was not , by any means , the "Vo Rogue of the day " He was at best an adequate handicapper. Remember the Vo won Group One Sprinting Races as well . You would have been able to write your own ticket about Scotch and Dry in a William Reid Stakes , Futurity Stakes etc. Completely different level. As for Pirate Bird , well I think he was probably a level under Scotch and Dry. You would probably have been taken away to a facility where the unfortunate Mairs of this world live if you thought about backing Pirate Bird in a Group One Sprint. Their racing pattern was leading and they all had four legs -that's where the similarities ended.

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2020-Jun-17, 08:06 PM Reply #218 »
Gun
Settle petal
I didn't think we were comparing their relative merits but rather their practice of 'piling it on" in front.

Offline arthur

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« 2020-Jun-17, 08:39 PM Reply #219 »
The thread is "General Racing History" . . So you can't be 'off topic' . . Right up my street . .



After posting my endorsement of JWH's   Pirate Bird, I tried to find his record, but couldn't . .

Anyway I backed PB in the late 60's and I know it was in June because it was 'show time' up here . . my memory is not as finely tuned as some . .

The long and short of it is that I got 40-1 . . And I thought that it was Carbine, Pharlap, and Bernborough . . all rolled into one  :no1:

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2020-Jun-17, 09:22 PM Reply #220 »


Modern racing history is making a mockery of its past history

Sunlines, Caviars and Winxs are a product of modern trans-gender chemistry.

.....if girls can be boys, using modern chemistry, it is time to adjust the wfa scale.........and the Admiral would agree.

Online wily ole dog

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« 2020-Jun-17, 09:26 PM Reply #221 »
Poison, Just so people do not keep trying to re write history ; Scotch and Dry was not , by any means , the "Vo Rogue of the day " He was at best an adequate handicapper. Remember the Vo won Group One Sprinting Races as well . You would have been able to write your own ticket about Scotch and Dry in a William Reid Stakes , Futurity Stakes etc. Completely different level. As for Pirate Bird , well I think he was probably a level under Scotch and Dry. You would probably have been taken away to a facility where the unfortunate Mairs of this world live if you thought about backing Pirate Bird in a Group One Sprint. Their racing pattern was leading and they all had four legs -that's where the similarities ended.

Good onya Gun, defending the most underrated horse to look through a bridle in 50 years :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Jun-25, 11:13 AM Reply #222 »
I suspect the treble may not have been completed due to most horses in work may have headed up to The Brisbane carnival


Love seeing these lists of old names from my youth. Passetreul💖 Clear Day, Bilgola Boy  etc

Wu Gok will attempt the treble on Saturday.

Has been burdened with 61kg with the Hippo to ride. Barrier 12 of 14. Will have to be exceptional to win.

Waller and Lees have 11 of the 14 runners.

Trent and Natalie are bringing up Sully and it is equal 2nd favourite (with Wu Gok) behind Attention Run which seems a bit skinny for a horse who has only won a BM88 but he will carry the limit 53 kg.

Good to see old Big Duke running. He has only ever missed a place once at Rosehill.


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