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Offline Peter Mair

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O.P. « 2018-May-07, 04:30 PM »

HAVE BOOKMAKERS RUN THEIR RACE?

The option to bet on racing in most countries is confined to parimutuel tote operations.

There would be a reason why, in most countries, ookmaking is no longer a legal activity and betting is restricted to totes.

Historically bookmakers added colour and excitement to the on course entertainment but that is ever less relevant as 'no one' goes to the track these days and if they do the roie of the on-course bookmaker is sadly dimished.

Conversely the business of bookmaking has been corporatized and digitalized and ever more in the hands of one or two global players.

............ it is no longer clear that these corporate bookmakers are making  a useful contribution.

On the contrary it now seems that the corporates have become useful players, as least temporarily, in an overall game of an industry exploiting modest punters who would be better off without them.

For starters the prices offered by corporates are generally worse than the prepost market set by TABs and their policies apparently preclude customers that are 'successful'.

For seconds these corporates seem to feed off the totes without making anything like the same 'tax' contribution to industry or government coffers

........ in short one can only wonder why state racing authorities, and the national government, are protecting a business that conributes little, exploits punters and sends the protected profits offshore.

Surely it is time for all sensibly involved in racing industry policy to work towards a tote-only framework for racing gambling -- and doing so fairly without the offer of rebates to big-betting syndicates plundering the tote pools contributed by modest punters.

----------- there may even be a role for facilitating the matched-bet operations of a Betfair business model in an overall process of coupling a  fair market for racing gambling with a framework ensuring reasonable restraint on the 'take' by TABs


Online westie

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« 2018-May-07, 10:23 PM Reply #1 »
Peter
You are back to your old tricks of 'SHOUTING' when making new threads, please edit to upper and lower case as others do  :mad:

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-May-08, 02:58 AM Reply #2 »


............. new threads have headlines

Online jfc

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« 2018-May-08, 07:54 AM Reply #3 »
For starters the prices offered by corporates are generally worse than the prepost market set by TABs and their policies apparently preclude customers that are 'successful'.

Show us your evidence for this bizzarre claim!

I remind you that Tabcorp's Rake is ~50% higher than that of Corporates.

Offline pegasyber

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« 2018-May-08, 02:52 PM Reply #4 »
  It would be useful for the new punter if there was an accepted explanation of the terms used;  such as:-

      Rebates:
      Kickbacks
      Rounding
   and how they are derived and/or used.

Online wily ole dog

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« 2018-May-08, 04:31 PM Reply #5 »
Peg, I suspect the mugs like me don't care, Mair is wrong again

Of course it's nice to get $5.60 from the Tab instead of $5.40 from corporate for my $10 outlay..........or vice versa of course BUT, I aint going to think to much about it

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-May-08, 05:35 PM Reply #6 »


Corporates have no balls

For gutlessnes it is hard to beat the corporates.

Apart from having detectors to identify any punter likely to win -- and then closing their account -- they are slow to put up prices that are better than TAB fixed oldds offered.

This lets TAB cop any smart early money and reset their book so when the corporate thinks it is safe it can offer a shade of better odds and pick up the bet.

As wily says ---why give them the bet for a minor difference in the payout.

The real problem is that the corporates are betting TAB prices but paying a much lower levy on turnover --that goes to profit -- and into the bargain they are sitting back applauding the administrators inflating fields and delivering rough results from the unfair racing.

...........give us a break -- these corporates should be made to go away as they are not contributing just taking.




Online jfc

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« 2018-May-08, 05:39 PM Reply #7 »
In other words, you are unable to provide any evidence for your deranged claims.

You ran your last race a very long time ago.

Offline arthur

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« 2018-May-08, 06:14 PM Reply #8 »

 they are slow to put up prices that are better than TAB fixed oldds offered.

This lets TAB cop any smart early money


Not so with U-Beaut on non-metro mid weeks

365 go up the afternoon before . . U-Beaut go up 9.0am day of

Not much use to me though . .

Went to put $25 EW a 26.0 pop (a loser) with 365 . . . was offered . . DRUMROLL . . 75 cents EW

Offline gunbower

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« 2018-May-08, 07:46 PM Reply #9 »
How true Arthur. I tried to have 1300/50 on one at the Sunshine Coast on Sunday with William Hill. Refused . They wouldn't even let me have 52/2. Gave up and went to Ladbrokes who I rarely use. Punched in the 1300 /50 and they offered me price bonus 2050/50 which I naturally took. Not a happy ending though as I doubt it has clocked in yet. However it is time the regulators got off their large collective behinds and told these collective vermin on the Australian Industry that if you offer a price , you must bet it to realistic limits.
It puzzles me why governments don't use a big stick  to these parasites ; it is not as if any of them are contributing to government coffers.

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-May-08, 11:45 PM Reply #10 »


Where is the Flick-Man,

..........they always have prices up but not the best price until late --and then it is just a shade better than the TAB.

The plot sickens when those that can't get on turn to the TAB -- where they always can-- but crushing the dividends for the mugs that lined up earlier.

Maybe it is a slow game but a bit of pest control would do wonders for the little guys.


Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-May-09, 05:25 PM Reply #11 »


Can Tabcorp resurrect a Betfair matched-bets facility?

It is almost 20 years since Betfair was hailed in the UK as the best new start-up business.

The simplicity and fairness of the concept was obvious -- and so was the threat to the industry funding model based on betting turnover.

Betfair was outlawed worldwide including in Australia, effectively, as both sides of a matched bet were counted separately for levy purposes.............. being a nation was no protection from the predations of separate states.

The game has now changed  -- bookmaking is now predominately a taking-not-contributing parasite model propped up and subsidized  by excessive takes by tote operators concurrently in league with administrators to rig the game against most punters.

This cannot go on unchecked.

Apart from limiting bookmaking bookmakers to an unincorporated on-course presence -- and prohibiting the 'fixed odds' on-line offerings of corporate hangers-on -- the system needs a Betfair style player to bring some integrity to the betting market.

There is no more fair test of a bet placed than the need to find an opposing match -- and that process should flush out most of the insider advantage of 'connections' and deliver a well-informed market.

A Tabcorp run 'Betfair' would have some options open to promote a fair market -- requiring minimun bets of $100 and 'closing'the matched bet window 10 minutes before the start of a race would reduce the 'noise' and leave 'final screens' with fully informed prices.

...........those then crushing the TAB odds with late bets could proceed straight to the stewards office to explain what they knew and who told them............. a couple of insider trading convictions would do much to restore integrity to the business. [As is, stewards supposedly run ragged not finding drug cheats could pay some attention to the entrenched cultural fraud entailed in 'getting one ready' and 'smoking one in' and 'trying or not today'  --- talk  about integity, lets!]


Online wily ole dog

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« 2018-May-09, 06:24 PM Reply #12 »
Further condoning cheating, Mair now wants another Betfair.

Can he get any lower?
Supports Oliver and Nickolic and 5heir behaviour.
Supports drugging horses and now supports people from making money by pulling them up

A grub of the lowest order

Offline Antitab#

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« 2018-May-09, 08:01 PM Reply #13 »
Pete, you poor simple fool.

You have spent weeks complaining  about Syndicates now you are advocating for them.

Who do you think sets the price, provides liquidity and is over 80% of the Lay side on  Betfair on Australian  racing.

You guessed it Zjelko and the doctor.

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-May-09, 09:40 PM Reply #14 »

Betfair is Betfair .........the concept of betting fair is a different thing

........obviously, if Betfair has become the plaything of predatory syndicates then it should also be taken out of the game.

The critical thing is the concept of the matched bet -- no one gets on unless someone gets off.

I would expect Tabcorp to be able to operate a workable facility -- especially if the minimum bet was $100 and the noise was kept to a minimum.

There could also be restrictions on the financial  'involvement' of any one player.

.....................presumably big players like the global corporates would be major customers displaying their ability to 'do the form' and 'make a book'.

Tabcorp could recruit that young turk Tom to an advisory position -- he would soon have the place humming.

The point of the proposal is to have a betting market where the players have to show their hand-- and so reveal to the modest punters what the skilled assessors are thinking.


Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-May-14, 04:49 PM Reply #15 »


Victoria going easy on the corporates

I do not have a good feel  for the issues in setting the point of betting tax rate.

It is interesting that in Victoria corporates are prominent sponsors of RVL and that poses the question of a deal being done or not.

That aside,  the corporates --including Tabcorp --  would be very pleased with whatever RVL is doing that delivers rough results in metropolitan races on Saturdays.



Online PoisonPen7

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« 2018-May-14, 05:04 PM Reply #16 »

Tabcorp could recruit that young turk Tom to an advisory position -- he would soon have the place humming.

The point of the proposal is to have a betting market where the players have to show their hand-- and so reveal to the modest punters what the skilled assessors are thinking.

  :lol:  you are a very funny man Pete.

They (skilled assessors) are probably thinking "how can I incorporate my rebate to ensure I do not make a loss on this race" and "how much longer can this gravy train last".

The "modest punters" would be far better off looking at the form guide than watching what the privileged few are doing or heaven forbid following Tom Waterhouse's tips.

Online wily ole dog

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« 2018-May-14, 05:53 PM Reply #17 »
Tommy Waterhouse or Monty  :no:

Online PoisonPen7

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« 2018-May-14, 08:50 PM Reply #18 »
One of the most important posts ever made on this forum by a member who would know.

Sadly he no longer seems to be one of our number  :(

Peter , you poor simple misguided ignorant fool.

Let me try and educate you,  plenty before me on this forum have tried and you either can't read or can't  comprehend so please read slowly and think.

Firstly a big price winner doesn't mean a profit for the pros and the syndicates . Yes sometimes they will have priced a 40/1 winner 16/1 and it's a profit. However the majority of times those that spend time, money and resources on form will price the 40/1 winner a 100/1 and like the rest of  the punters  they lose.

How much do you think the Big syndicates win at and what rate the TAB punter (your word) loses? what margin do they run at.

I'll tell you the biggest syndicate in Australia over the last. 20 years wins at single digit margins.

The Dr Nick group are currently the best and most successful punting entity this country has seen at the scale they are  betting Their margin is unmatched so I will exclude them from a general conversation.

By definition Tab punters lose on win bets at the takeout rate of 14%.

Peter. IF racing was predictable, and horses  ran in lanes, there was no interference,  no bad rides or bad luck or vagaries of racing , who do you think  would be more advantaged than the current situation.

Those that do the work  or the Tab punters?

I can assure you if all randomness, all luck was eliminated  from racing it would be the groups that spend hundreds or thousands of hours   analyzing every variable of the sport that would win more and clowns that follow media tipsters would lose at a greater rate than you currently do.

So I would suggest you should thank the racing gods for in unforeseen , unpredictable event in any race you see. It is only these elements  of luck that allow lazy , ill informed punters to ever win.

Without that luck element  those that know more than you, purely because they work harder than you would win more than they currently do.

Alternatively find a new hobby, you don't understand this one.

Offline fours

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« 2018-May-15, 12:01 AM Reply #19 »
PP7,

I think Antitab posted in the last week or so.

Fours

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-May-15, 07:01 AM Reply #20 »

Who knows what?

Syndicate bettors are system players content with a !% margin on every $million bet.

It is profitable but hardly sporting and only enjoyable for the take.

The corporates may be players in taking systematically with the cooperation of RVL but they are not at risk -- any syndicate bets would be rejected along with the bets of those likely to win.

This money then goes to the tote which is the only pool plunderable.

The quicker these parasites are sent packing the better.

...............  any support from RVL is suspect as is the role being played by a conboy converted to play for the romans against the christians.

Australia should  join the tote-only federation of nations against corruption -- and authorize a model akin to Betfair to reveal the insights that matched bets exposes.


Online PoisonPen7

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« 2018-May-15, 08:15 AM Reply #21 »
PP7,

I think Antitab posted in the last week or so.

Fours




 :(

Online jfc

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« 2018-May-15, 08:23 AM Reply #22 »
His handle contains a "#".

Rendering him immune to local searches .

But not immune to google.

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-May-18, 05:13 AM Reply #23 »


Corporate  bookmakers have pledged  continued support and sponsorship of RVL.

...... as Mandy said -- they wouild wouldnt they -- RVL is running a game that guarantees the corporates get much more than the 8% back.

Corporate support would soon dry up if RVL started to run races with limited fields for qualified horses.

What looks like support for Victorian racing is better seen as approval of rough-results that benefit the corporates.

Offline Dave

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« 2018-May-20, 11:17 AM Reply #24 »
Pete is a Moron(Like that is that news? I don't think so) as an indication of just how wrong ole Pete is yesterday I backed The Getaway........I got $81 from the bookie.....the parimutuel paid $31.70.........that ain't chicken feed a difference of close to a $1,000 for a $20 bet.......there is no way I would ever take Parimutuel odds.....not ever.....they got something out of my bets with Bookies, they would get Nothing, Zero, Zilch from my bets on the TAB.............Now I will turn that $1000 over several times and in the end the industry will actually get (a lot) more out of my bets with Bookies than they ever would with the Greedy TAB, i.e. even if I only turn it over once they will get a cut out of $1000 extra..........Pete and the TAB can't see the forest for the trees.....if you play fair and are not greedy you actually get more....it is a win/win for everyone...
You get a lot more out of winners than you do out of perpetual losers(like Pete) who quickly run out of money, especially if you Rob the poor Bas*#@ds..........It ain't Rocket Science!!

How can anyone be as inept as Pete? he doesn't even know when he is being Robbed..........He just doesn't have a clue


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