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Author Topic: Horses to follow  (Read 11998 times)

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Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Jan-08, 07:34 PM Reply #25 »
I buy it Dave because I respect the horse.


Unlike your goodself I do not take Winx and Black Caviar for granted.


Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Jan-08, 07:35 PM Reply #26 »
My 4 to follow to start the new year -

Kugelblitz - Trent Busuttin & Natalie Young
Think Cathy - Colin Little
Supera -   Ken & Bev Kelso

Without Parole - John Gosden

Think Cathy goes around on Wednesday at Sandown.


Online wily ole dog

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« 2018-Jan-10, 04:12 PM Reply #27 »
I know it's pretty obvious but geez Nature Strip was impressive. Heard Dean Lester a gusting about it this morning

Mum was handy and the family of the great Bash Boy
« Last Edit: 2018-Jan-10, 04:15 PM by wily ole dog »

Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Jan-10, 06:17 PM Reply #28 »
Probably the best horse Robert Smerdon will not train.


Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Jan-13, 02:24 PM Reply #29 »
My 4 to follow to start the new year -

Kugelblitz - Trent Busuttin & Natalie Young Lovely win today at a nice price
Think Cathy - Colin Little Perhaps looking for further, 
Supera -   Ken & Bev Kelso

Without Parole - John Gosden

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Jan-13, 10:24 PM Reply #30 »
Well done Auth.

Ya coulda told us to look at Werribee   :lol:

Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Jan-21, 08:39 AM Reply #31 »
Supera races today at Te Rapa, unfortunately stays at 1200m.

Currently 14/1.

Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Jan-21, 10:10 AM Reply #32 »
I took $31 with Ladbrokes 🤔

Offline fours

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« 2018-Jan-21, 11:44 AM Reply #33 »
Asuper collect!

Fours

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Jan-21, 12:31 PM Reply #34 »
Wow! Wish I had logged on earlier.

Well done to Auth for a $16 winner   emthup

Online wily ole dog

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« 2018-Jan-21, 12:40 PM Reply #35 »
$23 NSW tab. Well done Author :thumbsup:

Offline Dave

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« 2018-Jan-21, 08:14 PM Reply #36 »
Auth I don't take them for granted......you don't have anything to compare Black Caviar and Winx with so on face value they are Champions and no one denies that, least of all me.....They are Champions but like Champions of today they are turned into bullies and I find bullies just a little boring.....how is a horse going around at $1.10 a race? it is just an exhibition

What they ain't are Heroes.....you have no concept of what a hero is..........like in the war, they don't give a Victoria cross to the best shot....cos being the best is not the same as being a hero! Christ it ain't rocket science!....humans are not born with wings so no one misses not having them, I remember when we all had wings....that is why I miss them.....you have never been able to fly....so you don't miss not having wings..........I understand where you are coming from, you are the one who lacks the knowledge or the nous to grasp what I am talking about!

In the past horses like Tulloch, Carbine, Phar Lap, Bernborough, Peter Pan, Rising Fast Tobin Bronze and many more  were Champions..........but they were also heroes.......it is not just about ability...........being a hero is about laying it on the line when the deck is stacked against you............Frankel, Winx and Black Caviar have never done that...so they are just Champions who beat up on lessor Kids......when they know they are sitting on a Royal Flush and are unbeatable............the definition of a bully!

Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Jan-21, 08:40 PM Reply #37 »
I understand exactly what you are saying, BUT it is NOT the horses fault.

They are doing everything they  are being asked to do.

It is a shame they are not tested in handicaps but that is not the horses fault.

Both won handicaps with good weights, sure not welter weights but respectable weights none the less.


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« 2018-Jan-21, 08:42 PM Reply #38 »
Look at the nonsense with the Melbourne Cup these days, the bloody handicapper will not give horses anymore than 58 kgs and connections still hesitate.


Offline Dave

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« 2018-Jan-22, 06:48 AM Reply #39 »
I agree re the Melbourne Cup......what made the Melbourne Cup different from the Kentucky Derby, The English Derby, The Arc, The japan Cup etc was it was the peoples Cup, it was ours, we owned it.....now they have taken it away from us, it doesn't matter whether they have improved the quality or not(and they have diluted the quality not improved it, but that is another story).....sure they still get a crowd but in the past the crowd went for the race......now they go for the drunken party(orgy) and no one cares about the race, I bet half....no 80% of those on course leave without even knowing who won the Cup!

I totally agree it is not the horses fault and I totally appreciate a great horse, I am not talking about people like you and me, we are already addicted.....we love Horses and Horse racing and punting on horse racing.....you don't need to sell us the product......racing is dead from a public viewpoint, breeding is booming, but racing is dead...........why they build grandstands as a Monument to what might have been is a conundrum I can't figure out......

When they make a movie if they want to get bums on seats and why else would you make a movie? The likes of Bill Collins will watch every movie ever made.....they are not trying to attract people like Bill Collins.....there just ain't enough of them to pay the piper,

if they want to attract the public, they start with 2 ingredients....first they need a hero....second they need Romance.....it is just basic economics......the men want to see a hero, Women need to see Romance..........get that right and people will come.........it ain't Rocket science......

Australia was the only Country in the world that created Heroes and Romance in our racing.....there is no hero or Romance in the Sport of Kings.....There was when it was the sport of the people.....

For mine there are 2 people to blame for the start of the downfall, George Ryder and T.J. Smith.....it would have happened anyway but they were the first to want more than they deserved and what was good for racing, it wasn't their intent and they didn't know it at the time but they were the catalyst for racing getting on the slippery slide going downhill, it was like a glacier at first moving very slowly in the wrong direction...........but again that's another story

Offline Dave

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« 2018-Jan-22, 07:01 AM Reply #40 »
On the great horses like Black Caviar, Winx etc, I don't blame them for being bullies, I don't even blame the connections, there are far too many options for good horses to win heaps of money without ever actually contesting a "real" race............in their place I would do exactly the same thing......

But after them doing exactly the same thing 10 or 15 times in a row it does get just a little boring don't you think? Why they don't get huge crowds to Barrier trials.....and it is not the horse that people care about, as soon as they get beaten(if that were to happen) they would lose all their appeal.....cos they ain't heroes.....they are just Champions and they are expected to win when they are meeting inferior horses on their terms

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Jan-22, 05:04 PM Reply #41 »
On the great horses like Black Caviar, Winx etc, I don't blame them for being bullies, I don't even blame the connections, there are far too many options for good horses to win heaps of money without ever actually contesting a "real" race............in their place I would do exactly the same thing......

But after them doing exactly the same thing 10 or 15 times in a row it does get just a little boring don't you think? Why they don't get huge crowds to Barrier trials.....and it is not the horse that people care about, as soon as they get beaten(if that were to happen) they would lose all their appeal.....cos they ain't heroes.....they are just Champions and they are expected to win when they are meeting inferior horses on their terms

The general public seems to reserve it's decision on whether a horse is a champ or not by applauding horses on the way out.

I saw it with Kingston Town. I saw it with both Black Caviar and Winx. Can recall it happening with Lonhro, especially his last campaign.

To me, this is a good measuring stick of a champion.

And if they are applauding them on the way out they are not too concerned about the field size or the depth of quality. They just want to see their champion win.

You claim it is "boring" and with that I assume you are implying that past champions were somehow "interesting". Am I right?

In his last campaign Phar Lap won:

- the Underwood (first up over a mile at Williamstown) - 6 starters
- the Memsie - 6 starters
- back to Sydney and wins the Hill Stakes - 4 starters
- and a race called the Spring Stakes over 24f that looks like WFA - 7 starters
- Craven Plate - 4 starters
- Randwick Plate - 2 starters!!
- Cox Plate - 7 starters
- Melbourne Stakes - 4 starters

He then fails in a 14 horse Melbourne Cup with 10.1 before going to the US.

He won 8 in a row and never faced more than 6 opponents. There were a total of 36 starters in those 8 races in the spring of 1931.

Winx last 8 wins have been in fields totalling 69 starters. Black Caviar had 77 starters in her last 8 races.

The perception that our current WFA races are boring and that somehow in the past they had monstrous sized fields and were always "interesting" is a false one IMO.


Online wily ole dog

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« 2018-Jan-22, 07:06 PM Reply #42 »
Some very good points there PP 8-)

Offline Dave

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« 2018-Jan-22, 08:01 PM Reply #43 »
Wily PP is talking about champions, not hard to make good points there........I think you will find Phar Lap carried 10 stone 10......not 10 stone 1 in his last Cup..........Phar Lap had already established himself as a Hero........not just a Champion........and in his era there were many champions, Peter Pan, Chatham, Amounis, Nightmarch just to name a few.......name me just one other Champion going around today? Chautauqua is a very good horse but hardly a Champion, .I bet even Phar Lap didnít draw that big a crowd when he was going around at 1/20 either.......the people who are cheering Black Caviar/Winx are not being converted into racing lovers, they are looking at a novelty event........when itís over they donít come back,..........we need heroes and romance in racing.......that has been killed stone dead and you canít see it...........it is just about punting.........
And they have trackside standing by in the wings to fill that need..........you are taking me out of context just a little..........I am not about criticising Champions..........I am criticising the hijacking of our great sport for a different agenda and no one seen it happen and even after the event you people are defending the hijackers!
You canít deny racing in Australia was the best in the world as far as public participation goes can you? You canít deny Racing started to die around the time these changes started taking place, can you? you canít deny no other country on the Planet was as successful at getting crowds to even small meetings as Australia with a much smaller population, can you?.........I am telling you why.........why did we follow the losers?.......why didít the losers follow the only winner?.............we were the only nation that based itís important races on open Handicaps.............to give every one an equal chance of success..........it is the only fair way to do it............that is what a handicap does, evens the field out, as much as possible.........other countries based their important races on babies.........cos the breeding industry had them by the balls.......at least I know when someone is squeezing where it hurts............canít you see it? Canít you feel it?......or donít you have any?

Offline gunbower

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« 2018-Jan-22, 08:53 PM Reply #44 »
Dave, as usual a wonderful post. Back in the times you were talking about Racing was as much a part of the fabric of Australian life as Rugby League Football and Australian Rules Football. Sadly that is no longer the case. We let in those who had diminished the racing product overseas together with the affluent gentry who saw a buck in it for themselves (breeders ) and our racing now is so much the poorer.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Jan-22, 10:43 PM Reply #45 »
Can I ask what measure you guys are using to determine that "racing has died"?

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Jan-22, 10:45 PM Reply #46 »
.......I think you will find Phar Lap carried 10 stone 10......not 10 stone 1 in his last Cup.........

You are right Dave.

Our record on the Champions Records thread has him with 10.1 but I think this is a modern day spreadsheet phenomena where it assumes that 10.10 is a decimal number.

I will amend the record and thanks for picking it up.   emthup

Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Jan-23, 06:55 PM Reply #47 »
Another for the list -

Flaming Fast - Darren Weir.


Online wily ole dog

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« 2018-Jan-24, 07:14 PM Reply #48 »
That win by Kings Will Dream was nice.
Looks like he's bred to stay but that was impressive over 1400. Lovely big stride and action

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« 2018-Jan-24, 09:31 PM Reply #49 »
Think Cathy goes around in the 2nd at Pakenham. Currently 7/1


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