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Indictment On Australian Racing - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK

Author Topic: Indictment On Australian Racing  (Read 4156 times)

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Offline Authorized

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O.P. « 2009-Jan-03, 08:25 AM »
The NSW TAB is betting on 72 races within Australia today and there is not one race at or beyond 2400m. There are 2 at 2100m at Orange and Royal Stoney Creek.
 
DISGRACEFUL.
« Last Edit: 2009-Jan-17, 11:06 PM by Authorized »

Offline arakaan

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« 2009-Jan-03, 08:41 AM Reply #1 »
there's a 2200m race at the Coast.

Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Jan-03, 08:55 AM Reply #2 »
So there is, i missed that. Still it is not good.

Out of the around 70 group 1 races run in this country about 13 of them are at 2400m or further. Hardly representative of Australian racing.

Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Jan-03, 09:34 PM Reply #3 »
39 races on Sunday from 5 meetings again ZERO beyond 2200m.

Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Jan-03, 09:37 PM Reply #4 »
128 races in Australia on this weekend and none beyond 2200m.

Offline manikato1

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« 2009-Jan-04, 09:07 AM Reply #5 »
To make it worse Authorized, was the number of races at 900-1000m.  Even if you only took the 4 metro meetings (including GC excluding EF) there were 10 of the 32 races in this category.  Even if three of those were 2yo races, surely we are reaching the stage where 2yo should be starting to go 1100-1200 more often.

Offline Bundy

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« 2009-Jan-04, 10:06 AM Reply #6 »
I must be missing something..(always you say :shy:) but I do the form for the distance of each particular race....there is always one runner at least that will be suited by it...(yes..the one that wins).......personally, I dont care if the distance is 900 or 5000....there is a winner in there....just like tracks..horses for courses....horses for distances....giddy up :p

Offline Gammalite

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« 2009-Jan-04, 10:09 AM Reply #7 »
Victoria are starting to turn things around. There are moree 3000 meter races held each year. The stayers series has been improved each year. The Bagot distance moved to 2800. Some feature country races have been increased in distance. Only small things but a start.
It is hard for them to put on a lot of staying races if the majority of our horses are bred to run 1000 to 2000.
I agree with what has been said it needs to change but it is not going to happen quickly. At least WA has seen the light and the Perth Cup will be back to 3200 next year.

Offline manikato1

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« 2009-Jan-04, 10:18 AM Reply #8 »
Gammalite,

Remember that Victoria has basically got rid of most of their race restrictions, so they need to divide their races by distance rather than class (i.e. there are only NMW and 1MW-LY races in town, and only midweek).  I think that if the other states were to follow, there would be more distance races, as they would have to do the same thing, divide races by distance rather than class.

Also, Victoria seems to have more trainers able to get their horses ready for longer races first up, rather than stayers spending half their careers in shorter races as tends to happen elsewhere.

I disagree with the Perth Cup decision btw.  One 3200m race in the state is not enough, there needs to be more long distance races on normal programs, then you can happily have your feature at 3200m, why have that when there are zero other races beyond 2400m?

Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Jan-04, 10:19 AM Reply #9 »
I must be missing something..(always you say :shy:) but I do the form for the distance of each particular race....there is always one runner at least that will be suited by it...(yes..the one that wins).......personally, I don't care if the distance is 900 or 5000....there is a winner in there....just like tracks..horses for courses....horses for distances....giddy up :p

Thats a fair comment from a purely punting point of view, but in my opinion there is far less enthuses on luck in middle distance a staying races and barriers play a little less of a roll and they are a better spectacle.

Although races like the bat out of hell where they go hell for leather from the git go are quite spectacular.
« Last Edit: 2009-Jan-04, 10:21 AM by Authorized »

Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Jan-04, 10:21 AM Reply #10 »
Manikato, YES YES YES YES YES.  8-)

Offline Bundy

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« 2009-Jan-04, 10:26 AM Reply #11 »
purely punting point of view

well yes, of course....I punt on the horsies....I dont want spectacular races...and barriers?....well yes...I want races where they DO play a roll....makes it easier to eliminate horsies...doesnt it? :p

Offline Gammalite

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« 2009-Jan-04, 06:35 PM Reply #12 »
Gammalite,

Remember that Victoria has basically got rid of most of their race restrictions, so they need to divide their races by distance rather than class (i.e. there are only NMW and 1MW-LY races in town, and only midweek).  I think that if the other states were to follow, there would be more distance races, as they would have to do the same thing, divide races by distance rather than class.

Also, Victoria seems to have more trainers able to get their horses ready for longer races first up, rather than stayers spending half their careers in shorter races as tends to happen elsewhere.

I disagree with the Perth Cup decision btw.  One 3200m race in the state is not enough, there needs to be more long distance races on normal programs, then you can happily have your feature at 3200m, why have that when there are zero other races beyond 2400m?

Well why run the Melbourne Cup at 3200 just becasue there is one other half decent open class race in Victoria at 3200 ? It is not like the runners in the 3000 meter events running in Victoria end up as regular Cup runners or are even close to that class.
The tradition of the two mile Cup races was great. It has now been quashed by the group racing review panel dumping there G1 status in favour of 3 year old sprints and our breeding going down the sprint course for 30 years. Take the Brisbane Cup. Now it is just a support race on the card rather than the main race for the carnival. On top of that the Prime Ministers Cup has gone from being a reasonable group 2 staying race to a listed sprint that is declining every year.
What does it matter to the race distance that it is the only 3200 meter race ? Would having a 3000 meter lead up race or another 3200 meter race at another stage of the year make anu difference to the race ?
I would love to see more feature staying races like Europe. The starting point is getting our old staying races back to 3200 back up and running. that includes The Brisbane and Perth Cups and someone putting some money into the Queensland Cup as well. Then maybe we could revive a few of the St.Legers that have dropped off the map in the last 10 or so years.

Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Jan-04, 06:47 PM Reply #13 »
Gammalite, group 1 races represent less than 1% of racing.  Group 1 races should be representative of the racing culture.

About 9-10% of group 1 races are 2400 or beyond. This is crazy.

If this was a true representation of Australian racing than 9-10% of ALL racing in Australia should be at distances BEYOND 2400m.

The same could be said of group 2, 3 and listed races, they should be representative of Australian racing.

Offline Gammalite

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« 2009-Jan-05, 10:57 AM Reply #14 »
Gammalite, group 1 races represent less than 1% of racing.  Group 1 races should be representative of the racing culture.

About 9-10% of group 1 races are 2400 or beyond. This is crazy.

If this was a true representation of Australian racing than 9-10% of ALL racing in Australia should be at distances BEYOND 2400m.

The same could be said of group 2, 3 and listed races, they should be representative of Australian racing.

Not sure why you are aiming your comments at me. I am with you. I want to see more staying races and i want to see them retain their group statis or in some cases regain it.

Offline manikato1

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« 2009-Jan-05, 12:11 PM Reply #15 »
There's another point though Gammalite.  Why should all of the 3200m cups races be Group 1, when there are no Group 2 or 3 races at the distance?  Wouldn't it make more sense to have, say Melbourne as G1, Sydney and Brisbane as Group 2 and Perth and Adelaide as Group 3.  Same applies for Derbies and Oaks of course.

I would prefer the Perth Cup to be 3200m, but I don't see it as a good thing if it is the only race beyond 2400m in the state.  I would rather have a number of races >2400m throughout the year, so you will build up a pool of horses from which to contest the Cup, rather than most of the field being on trial at the distance in the race.

Other than Victoria, no one seems to make an effort to have races for stayers, so it is easy to see why they take the easy option of reducing the distance of the cups.

Fully agree with the return of the St Ledgers, even if they are open WFA rather than for 3yo's.

Offline Gammalite

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« 2009-Jan-05, 04:40 PM Reply #16 »
There's another point though Gammalite.  Why should all of the 3200m cups races be Group 1, when there are no Group 2 or 3 races at the distance?  Wouldn't it make more sense to have, say Melbourne as G1, Sydney and Brisbane as Group 2 and Perth and Adelaide as Group 3.  Same applies for Derbies and Oaks of course.

I would prefer the Perth Cup to be 3200m, but I don't see it as a good thing if it is the only race beyond 2400m in the state.  I would rather have a number of races >2400m throughout the year, so you will build up a pool of horses from which to contest the Cup, rather than most of the field being on trial at the distance in the race.

Other than Victoria, no one seems to make an effort to have races for stayers, so it is easy to see why they take the easy option of reducing the distance of the cups.

Fully agree with the return of the St Ledgers, even if they are open WFA rather than for 3yo's.

The group ratings dont make a lot of difference but giving them gruop 1 status give them the prestige and something to aim for.
Of course it would work just as well if we had one of two G1 3200 Hcps and the rest G2 and we had a few more decent 2400 - 2800 races.
The fact that races in Sydney like the Stayers Cup, McKell Cup etc have all stayed at the same level of prize money and have been dropped off listed status is a problem as well. I can not see any good reason at all why these races should not have remained $100k listed races even if it ment programing them at different stages of the year.
I agree with the St.Legers WFA or set weights for 3yo + up including the VRC St.Leger which is slowly declining.
The position on the callender of the Andrew Ramsden St is another. At the moment it seems to be in a no where position but it cant revert back to its old spot becasue the Adelaide Cup would be on 1 week before it.

Offline manikato1

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« 2009-Jan-05, 06:12 PM Reply #17 »
I don't have a problem with when the Ramsden is run.  Genuine stayers can target Sydney or Adelaide Cup then have the Ramsden as a backup.  Particularly if the Bagot remains at 2800m, it means there are two good staying races aside from the cup about 6 months apart.

Agree with the Rosehill races, but maybe the problem is that there were about 5 races over a 3 month period which were all the same (2400m Quality handicaps).  Maybe if they had those races over varying staying distance (a couple at 2400m, a couple at 2800m and one at 3200m) they may have stood a better chance of keeping them all as group races.

I don't see why they had to reduce the prizemoney just because they lost listed status though.

Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Jan-05, 08:05 PM Reply #18 »
I apologize if it seemed like i was attacking, that was certainly not my intent Gammalite.

My point is if we have 3 group 1 3200m races in my opinion it should work like a pyramid at the bottom of the food chain there should be around 250 staying maiden races 2800+, 4-500 odd restricted staying races 2800+, 150+ open staying races and so on.

In other words about 1000 races run beyond 2800m.

 

Offline zeditave

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« 2009-Jan-06, 03:16 AM Reply #19 »
group 1 races represent less than 1% of racing.  Group 1 races should be representative of the racing culture.

OK, so how many maidens are there then?

Why should all of the 3200m cups races be Group 1, when there are no Group 2 or 3 races at the distance?

Cup races shouldn't be Group I... no handicap race should be really....

Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Jan-06, 08:56 AM Reply #20 »
I do not know how many maidens there are but my imagination tells me the proportion would be about right overall. I doubt though that there are any over 2800m+, certainly it would not be proportional ?


Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Jan-10, 10:18 AM Reply #22 »
For a slight balancing against my whingeathon.

Today there are 74 races being bet on the NSWTAB within Australia, 6 of them are at distances greater than 2100m. 

This brings the tally for the year 2009 to 482 races run (after today), 20 beyond 2100m.
 
app - 4.1%

Offline Bundy

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« 2009-Jan-10, 10:19 AM Reply #23 »
4.1% to many :p

Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Jan-10, 10:41 AM Reply #24 »
You are pointing that gun in the wrong direction.  :censored:

 8-)


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