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Jackals Top 10 Horses - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK

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Offline Authorized

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« 2014-Jun-14, 06:25 PM Reply #25 »
My guess as to The Jackals top 10 post 1970

1............Kingston Town
2............Black Caviar
3............Might And Power
4............Northerly
5............Bonecrusher
6............Sunline
7............Better Loosen Up
8............Dulcify
9............Rough Habit
10..........Durbridge


Offline Lert

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« 2014-Jun-14, 07:21 PM Reply #26 »
Manikato?

Offline Authorized

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« 2014-Jun-14, 07:29 PM Reply #27 »
Manikato?

That was a sorry over sight on my part.

Durbridge might drop off that list. Manikato would fit in at 3 or 4.

Offline Lert

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« 2014-Jun-14, 07:34 PM Reply #28 »
  emthup

Offline chalky

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« 2014-Jun-14, 09:21 PM Reply #29 »
Gee ya reckon the Diva doesn't get a run?

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2014-Jun-14, 09:42 PM Reply #30 »
Nup, no way but I suspect jack will throw her in as she won in Melbourne, despite being beaten on numerous occasions in Sydney. Of more interest is where he places Lonhro as he smashed the Diva and was a vastly superior horse.......in my humble opinion :shy:

Offline DCL

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« 2014-Jun-14, 10:03 PM Reply #31 »
 Since 1970, Timeform Australia have rated them like this.

 1 Kingston Town
 2E Manikato
 2E Black Caviar
 4 Better Loosen Up
 5E Might And Power
 5E So You Think
 5E Gunsynd
 8E Lankan Rupee
 8E Haylist
 10E Strawberry Road
 10E Weekend Hustler


Offline The Jackal

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« 2014-Jun-14, 10:11 PM Reply #32 »
I think Wily Dog requested a top 20 post 1970, haven't got around to that yet.
FWIW won't be including Makybe Diva in the top 10 nor will Rough Habit.

Durbridge....... surely you are kidding, would he even make a top 20 in the decade he raced?

Manikato is a definite top 5 and Strawberry Road is a definite top 10.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2014-Jun-15, 09:31 AM Reply #33 »
Like the way you're thinking jack :whistle:

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2014-Jun-15, 10:12 AM Reply #34 »
Since 1970, Timeform Australia have rated them like this.

 1 Kingston Town
 2E Manikato
 2E Black Caviar
 4 Better Loosen Up
 5E Might And Power
 5E So You Think
 5E Gunsynd
 8E Lankan Rupee
 8E Haylist
 10E Strawberry Road
 10E Weekend Hustler


Geez I reckon there are a few glaring omissions there.

I'd have Octagonal, Lonhro and Northerly in my top 10 probably at the expense of Lankan Rupee (good horse he is surely he has to do a bit more), Hay List and Weekend Hussler (the EI champ).

Timeform make some dubious judgement calls IMHO.

Like when Weekend Hussler beat Racing To Win in a Ryder Stakes. They rated it one of the highest rated races ever - think it was in the top 3. I reckon with the benefit of hindsight, the race was run in the shadow of Equine Influnza, and it was one of the weakest runnings of the race.

Offline The Jackal

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« 2014-Jun-15, 10:25 AM Reply #35 »
Geez I reckon there are a few glaring omissions there.

I'd have Octagonal, Lonhro and Northerly in my top 10 probably at the expense of Lankan Rupee (good horse he is surely he has to do a bit more), Hay List and Weekend Hussler (the EI champ).

Timeform make some dubious judgement calls IMHO.

Like when Weekend Hussler beat Racing To Win in a Ryder Stakes. They rated it one of the highest rated races ever - think it was in the top 3. I reckon with the benefit of hindsight, the race was run in the shadow of Equine Influnza, and it was one of the weakest runnings of the race.


Timeform was created by a man named Phil Bull in 1948,  which is ironic considering they've been filling us with nothing but Bull ever since.

Could not possibly have Lankan Rupee, Hay List, Weekend Hussler in a top 10, or perhaps even a top 20. Likewise Lonhro who would be borderline top 20.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2014-Jun-15, 06:31 PM Reply #36 »

 Likewise Lonhro who would be borderline top 20.


Now we go separate paths  :lol:

Once jackal comes up with his top 20 I will start a thread using that as a template for a forum vote/poll

Offline firezuki

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« 2014-Jun-16, 04:04 AM Reply #37 »
Any list must include Balmerino.  

Should have include IMHO. 
« Last Edit: 2014-Jun-16, 05:22 AM by firezuki »

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-Jun-16, 06:15 PM Reply #38 »
Any list must include Balmerino.  


Would you have thought so before be went overseas ?  The question could apply to Strawberry Road.

Balmerino had an outstanding record in New Zealand, not quite as good in Australia.  In fact I thought he was  tad disappointing in Australia.  I often think we develop elevated opinions about our horses when they succeed overseas.  I don't suppose we can ever know if the likes of Balmerino or Horlicks actually improved abroad or if they simply ran up to their Australasian form. 


Offline firezuki

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« 2014-Jun-16, 06:22 PM Reply #39 »
I think International form is important.  Both Balmerino and Strawberry Road mixed with the best and equipped themselves well. 
So You Think probably rates highly for me too based on his form. 

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2014-Jun-16, 06:56 PM Reply #40 »
Would you have thought so before be went overseas ?  The question could apply to Strawberry Road.

Balmerino had an outstanding record in New Zealand, not quite as good in Australia.  In fact I thought he was  tad disappointing in Australia.  I often think we develop elevated opinions about our horses when they succeed overseas.  I don't suppose we can ever know if the likes of Balmerino or Horlicks actually improved abroad or if they simply ran up to their Australasian form.  



Balmerino came with a hype from NZ as a 3yo but seriously, what did he achieve?
A Ranvet bating Hartshill & a Brissy Cup beating Participator. I see nothing to suggest he would have performed here. Apart from the cultural cringe we feel as he ran a well held 2nd in Paris, thus elevating him well above his station :chin:

Offline Authorized

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« 2014-Jun-16, 07:23 PM Reply #41 »
Balmerino came with a hype from NZ as a 3yo but seriously, what did he achieve?
A Ranvet bating Hartshill & a Brissy Cup beating Participator. I see nothing to suggest he would have performed here. Apart from the cultural cringe we feel as he ran a well held 2nd in Paris, thus elevating him well above his station :chin:

If he has run second in an Arc there must be some quality horses behind him ?

Offline firezuki

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« 2014-Jun-16, 07:26 PM Reply #42 »

Offline Draven39

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« 2014-Jun-16, 07:45 PM Reply #43 »
It's not ready yet, but don't worry, it's not far away, you'll have have plenty of time to get some mulitnics into the thread for it.     :lol:  

*Sigh* When are you going to give that one up Jack? So I give you a hard time, so we disagree about anything that wins in Melbourne being better than what wins in Sydney? (though as another Victorian I agree on this. Our Spring carnival is still better than their Autumn carnival) I'm not going to go to that trouble.   :no:

I like your pre 1970 list, not a wrong step with any of them.

And I agree about Durbridge, doesn't belong in the post 1970 top twenty, simply not good enough.

What about SYT? I'd like to think top 10 for what he achieved here and then abroad.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2014-Jun-16, 08:11 PM Reply #44 »
If he has run second in an Arc there must be some quality horses behind him ?

Im sure there was mate but is running 2nd in a good race enough to get him above a fantastic list of horses? No Cox Plate, No Newmarket, no Doncaster or Caulfield cup, No BMW or any significant WFA aside from the Ranvet

Offline Authorized

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« 2014-Jun-16, 08:36 PM Reply #45 »
Seems to me he had weighted himself out of handicaps before he arrived in Australia.

We seem more sympathetic to New Zealand 3yos who arrive in the autumn after a tough spring and summer in New Zealand.

In the 1977 Sydney Cup he had to give 4 kgs to that years Melbourne Cup quinella and started 3/1 favourite, Surely that tells you plenty about his quality even if he was beaten ?

Race Record For Balmerino

Age Fin Date Track Race Distance Jockey Weight Winner/2nd Betting Runners Time
two 2nd 21-Mar-75 Whangarei Junior Hcp 1000m M Campbell 53.5 Mi Gold (52.5) 6-6 12 ran 1:00.0G
two 1st 1-Apr-75 Cambridge Stud Hcp 1200m M Campbell 52.5 Patronia (51) 1/1 f 12 ran 1:12.4G
two 5th 26-Apr –75 Hawkes Bay Juvenile Hcp 1400m M Campbell 52 Chesterton (57) 1/1 f 14 ran 1:25.6Easy
two 3rd 31-May-75 Cambridge Batchelor Hcp 1200m M Campbell 56 Caboodle (51.5) 1/1 f 15 ran 1:17.3H
three 2nd 16-Aug-75 Waikato Glenvale Hcp 1200m M Campbell 53 Sea Egg (53.5) 5-5 15 ran 1:16.6H
three 1st 27-Aug-75 Bay Of Plenty Citrus Hcp 1600m M Campbell 54 Raging Moon (53.5) 1/1 f 15 ran 1:39.4Easy
three 1st 13-Sep-75 Hawkes Bay Glenaray Hcp 1609.3m M Campbell 53 Tariana (51) 1/1 f 11 ran 1:38.8G
three 1st 17-Sep-75 Hawkes Bay Guineas 1609.3m M Campbell 55.5 March Legend (55.5) 2-2 14 ran 1:37.6G
three 2nd 4-Oct-75 Ellerslie GN Guineas 1600m M Campbell 55.5 Purple Pearl (55.5) 1/1 f 16 ran 1:38.3Easy
three 1st 18-Oct-75 Trentham Wellington Guineas 1600m M Campbell 55.5 March Legend (55.5) 1/1 f 18 ran 1:37.7G
three 1st 8-Nov-75 Canterbury 2000 Guineas 1600m M Campbell 55.5 March Legend (55.5) 1/1 f 15 ran 1:37.4G
three 1st 13-Dec-75 Avondale Avondale Guineas 1600m M Campbell 55.5 Nuriootpa (55.5) 1/1 f 18 ran 1:36.6G
three 1st 26-Dec-75 Ellerslie NZ Derby 2400m M Campbell 55.5 Caboodle (55.5) 1/1 f 14 ran 2:31.2D
three 1st 19-Jan-76 Trentham Wellington Derby 2400m M Campbell 55.5 Caboodle (55.5) 1/1 f 11 ran 2:29.0G
three 1st 9-Feb-76 Rotorua Challenge Stakes 1900m M Campbell 52.5 My Cue (52) 1/1 f 10 ran 1:59.5Soft
three 1st 27-Mar-76 Rosehill Rawson Stakes 1750m M Campbell 52.5 Hartshill (55.5) 4-7 f 5 ran 1:47.8S
three 1st 3-Apr-76 Rosehill Tulloch Stakes 1850m M Campbell 54 Lord Dudley (54) 5-4 f 13 ran 1:51.8G
three 6th 17-Apr-76 Randwick Champion Stakes 2000m M Campbell 54 Cheyne Walk (54) 1-1 f 14 ran 2:02.7G
three 2nd 24-Apr-76 Randwick Queen Elizabeth 2400m M Campbell 52.5 Taras Bulba (57) 7-2 5 ran 2:28.86G
three 1st 22-May-76 Eagle Farm Grand Prix 2200m M Campbell 58 Cheyne Walk (56.5) 5-1 10 ran 2:33.5H
three 1st 5-Jun-76 Eagle Farm O’Shea Stakes 2200m M Campbell 54.5 Participator (57.5) 4-6 f 14 ran 2:16.1G
three 1st 12-Jun-76 Eagle Farm Brisbane Cup 3200m M Campbell 54.5 Participator (54.5) 5-4 f 15 ran 3:24.2G
four 2nd 18-Sep-76 Moonee Valley Feehan Stakes 1600m M Campbell 57 Mer Cler (54.5) 13-8 f 16 ran 1:40.1S
four 2nd 2-Oct-76 Flemington Turnbull Stakes 2000m M Campbell 57.5 Denise’s Joy (55.5) 2-5 f 8 ran 2:04.1G
four 4th 9-Oct-76 Caulfield Caulfield Stakes 2000m M Campbell 57 Perhaps (56.5) 6-4 f 9 ran 2:04.8S
four 2nd 23-Feb-77 Waikato Lion Brown Sprint 1400m M Campbell 57 Soliloquy (56) 4-4 12 ran 1:23.1Easy
four 1st 5-Mar-77 Ellerslie Air NZ Stakes 2000m M Campbell 57 Tudor Light (55.5) 1/1 f 9 ran 2:02.7G
four 1st 26-Mar-77 Awapuni Gold Cup 2000m M Campbell 57 Copper Belt (58) 1/1 f 7 ran 2:03.4Easy
four 1st 9-Apr-77 Randwick Autumn Stakes 2000m M Campbell 57 Gold And Black (57) 4-9 f 6 ran 2:08.0G
four 6th 11-Apr-77 Randwick Sydney Cup 3200m M Campbell 59 Reckless (55) 20 ran 3:19.4G
four 1st 23-Apr-77 Hawkes Bay Ormond Memorial 2000m M Campbell 57 Fraxy (57) 1/1 f 8 ran 2:08.2Soft
five 1st 12-Sep-77 Goodwood Valdoe Stakes R Hutchinson 61 Lucent (55.5) 6-1 9 ran 02:11.9
five 2nd Oct-77 Milan Coppa ‘Oro 2400m R Hutchinson 58.5 Statef (56) 8 ran 02:33.8
five 2nd 2-Nov-77 Longchamps Arc de Triomphe 2400m R Hutchinson 59 Alleged (56) 26 ran 02:30.6
five 4th 5-Nov-77 Laurel Park Washington International R Hutchinson 57.5 Johnny Majestic (54.5) 8 ran 02:42.0
five 4th 30-Apr-78 Longchamp Prix Gannay 2100m W Carson 58 Monsiegneur (58) 8 ran 02:18.3
five 1st 23-May-78 Goodwood Graham Stakes 10 f G Starkey 60.5 Uncle Pokey (57) 8-11 f 6 ran 02:10.3
five 2nd 8-Jun-78 Epsom Coronation Cup 12 f G Starkey 57 Crow (57) 6-5 f 5 ran 02:34.2
five 3rd 23-Jun-78 Royal Ascot Hardwicke Stakes 12 f G Starkey 57 Montcontour (56.5) 8 ran 02:33.3
five 2nd 8-Jul-78 Sandown (Eng.) Eclipse Stakes 11 f G Starkey 60.5 Gunner B (60.5) 9 ran 02:05.5
five 5th Royal Ascot KG & QE2 Stakes 12 f M Campbell 60.5 Ile de Bourbon (54.5) 14 ran 02:30.5
six 6th 22-Aug-78 York Gold Cup 10 f G Starkey 60 Hawaiian Sound (55.5) 10 ran 02:09.7

STARTS : 42 (21 WINS, 11 2NDS, 2 3RDS, 8 UNPLACED)

GROUP 1 WINS : 5 (races that are currently Group 1)


Offline wily ole dog

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« 2014-Jun-16, 08:42 PM Reply #46 »
Nice horse but we are talking about Australia's best and winning our best is not there on that resume, well not enough to place him in the top 20 since 1970

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-Jun-16, 09:48 PM Reply #47 »
Those NZ Racing Hall of Fame videos are excellent.

I suppose what I was driving at was that if Balmerino was a length or so off Alleged what about the likes of Lord Dudley, Cheyne Walk, Denise's Joy and Taras Bulba ? They were all very competitive with Balmerino in Australia.  Does it follow that they would have all been as competitive overseas as Balmerino was ?

I think so.  I think our best horses have always been up the standard of international competition, but when one or two of them actually go overseas and prove it we tend to put them on pedestals above the regard we had for them at home.   

Perhaps Choisir is a good example.  Prior to his success in England Choisir was borderline despicable in Australia with a great many who wanted him publicly gelded for his indiscretions.  Win in England- national hero.  If he hadn't go there and done that he would probably be remembered as that nutcase colt in the pacifiers.

 

Offline firezuki

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« 2014-Jun-16, 09:55 PM Reply #48 »
They are good.  All those Aussie horses you mentioned had their time in the sun.
Don't know whether they would have stepped up like Balmerino did but certainly possible. 

Not sure that our best have always been up to international standard.  Our sprinters, yes. 

But conversely, Europe have sent some very ordinary horse flesh Down Under and done quite well. 

I think some horses thrive in different environments. 

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2014-Jun-16, 09:55 PM Reply #49 »
Cheyne Walk was a ripper

Bloody shame it's so hard to find the race records of these horses


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