My guess as to The Jackals top 10 post 1970

1............Kingston Town
2............Black Caviar
3............Might And Power
4............Northerly
5............Bonecrusher
6............Sunline
7............Better Loosen Up
8............Dulcify
9............Rough Habit
10..........Durbridge

Manikato?

That was a sorry over sight on my part.

Durbridge might drop off that list. Manikato would fit in at 3 or 4.

Gee ya reckon the Diva doesn't get a run?

 Since 1970, Timeform Australia have rated them like this.

 1 Kingston Town
 2E Manikato
 2E Black Caviar
 4 Better Loosen Up
 5E Might And Power
 5E So You Think
 5E Gunsynd
 8E Lankan Rupee
 8E Haylist
 10E Strawberry Road
 10E Weekend Hustler

Like the way you're thinking jack

Geez I reckon there are a few glaring omissions there.

I'd have Octagonal, Lonhro and Northerly in my top 10 probably at the expense of Lankan Rupee (good horse he is surely he has to do a bit more), Hay List and Weekend Hussler (the EI champ).

Timeform make some dubious judgement calls IMHO.

Like when Weekend Hussler beat Racing To Win in a Ryder Stakes. They rated it one of the highest rated races ever - think it was in the top 3. I reckon with the benefit of hindsight, the race was run in the shadow of Equine Influnza, and it was one of the weakest runnings of the race.

Timeform was created by a man named Phil Bull in 1948,  which is ironic considering they've been filling us with nothing but Bull ever since.

Could not possibly have Lankan Rupee, Hay List, Weekend Hussler in a top 10, or perhaps even a top 20. Likewise Lonhro who would be borderline top 20.

Any list must include Balmerino.  

Should have include IMHO. 

I think International form is important.  Both Balmerino and Strawberry Road mixed with the best and equipped themselves well. 
So You Think probably rates highly for me too based on his form. 

Balmerino came with a hype from NZ as a 3yo but seriously, what did he achieve?
A Ranvet bating Hartshill & a Brissy Cup beating Participator. I see nothing to suggest he would have performed here. Apart from the cultural cringe we feel as he ran a well held 2nd in Paris, thus elevating him well above his station

If he has run second in an Arc there must be some quality horses behind him ?

It's not ready yet, but don't worry, it's not far away, you'll have have plenty of time to get some mulitnics into the thread for it.       

*Sigh* When are you going to give that one up Jack? So I give you a hard time, so we disagree about anything that wins in Melbourne being better than what wins in Sydney? (though as another Victorian I agree on this. Our Spring carnival is still better than their Autumn carnival) I'm not going to go to that trouble.   

I like your pre 1970 list, not a wrong step with any of them.

And I agree about Durbridge, doesn't belong in the post 1970 top twenty, simply not good enough.

What about SYT? I'd like to think top 10 for what he achieved here and then abroad.

Seems to me he had weighted himself out of handicaps before he arrived in Australia.

We seem more sympathetic to New Zealand 3yos who arrive in the autumn after a tough spring and summer in New Zealand.

In the 1977 Sydney Cup he had to give 4 kgs to that years Melbourne Cup quinella and started 3/1 favourite, Surely that tells you plenty about his quality even if he was beaten ?

Race Record For Balmerino

Age	Fin	Date	Track	Race	Distance	Jockey	Weight	Winner/2nd	Betting	Runners	Time
two	2nd	21-Mar-75	Whangarei	Junior Hcp	1000m	M Campbell	53.5	Mi Gold (52.5)	6-6	12 ran	1:00.0G
two	1st	1-Apr-75	Cambridge	Stud Hcp	1200m	M Campbell	52.5	Patronia (51)	1/1 f	12 ran	1:12.4G
two	5th	26-Apr –75	Hawkes Bay	Juvenile Hcp	1400m	M Campbell	52	Chesterton (57)	1/1 f	14 ran	1:25.6Easy
two	3rd	31-May-75	Cambridge	Batchelor Hcp	1200m	M Campbell	56	Caboodle (51.5)	1/1 f	15 ran	1:17.3H
three	2nd	16-Aug-75	Waikato	Glenvale Hcp	1200m	M Campbell	53	Sea Egg (53.5)	5-5	15 ran	1:16.6H
three	1st	27-Aug-75	Bay Of Plenty	Citrus Hcp	1600m	M Campbell	54	Raging Moon (53.5)	1/1 f	15 ran	1:39.4Easy
three	1st	13-Sep-75	Hawkes Bay	Glenaray Hcp	1609.3m	M Campbell	53	Tariana (51)	1/1 f	11 ran	1:38.8G
three	1st	17-Sep-75	Hawkes Bay	Guineas	1609.3m	M Campbell	55.5	March Legend (55.5)	2-2	14 ran	1:37.6G
three	2nd	4-Oct-75	Ellerslie	GN Guineas	1600m	M Campbell	55.5	Purple Pearl (55.5)	1/1 f	16 ran	1:38.3Easy
three	1st	18-Oct-75	Trentham	Wellington Guineas	1600m	M Campbell	55.5	March Legend (55.5)	1/1 f	18 ran	1:37.7G
three	1st	8-Nov-75	Canterbury	2000 Guineas	1600m	M Campbell	55.5	March Legend (55.5)	1/1 f	15 ran	1:37.4G
three	1st	13-Dec-75	Avondale	Avondale Guineas	1600m	M Campbell	55.5	Nuriootpa (55.5)	1/1 f	18 ran	1:36.6G
three	1st	26-Dec-75	Ellerslie	NZ Derby	2400m	M Campbell	55.5	Caboodle (55.5)	1/1 f	14 ran	2:31.2D
three	1st	19-Jan-76	Trentham	Wellington Derby	2400m	M Campbell	55.5	Caboodle (55.5)	1/1 f	11 ran	2:29.0G
three	1st	9-Feb-76	Rotorua	Challenge Stakes	1900m	M Campbell	52.5	My Cue (52)	1/1 f	10 ran	1:59.5Soft
three	1st	27-Mar-76	Rosehill	Rawson Stakes	1750m	M Campbell	52.5	Hartshill (55.5)	4-7 f	5 ran	1:47.8S
three	1st	3-Apr-76	Rosehill	Tulloch Stakes	1850m	M Campbell	54	Lord Dudley (54)	5-4 f	13 ran	1:51.8G
three	6th	17-Apr-76	Randwick	Champion Stakes	2000m	M Campbell	54	Cheyne Walk (54)	1-1 f	14 ran	2:02.7G
three	2nd	24-Apr-76	Randwick	Queen Elizabeth	2400m	M Campbell	52.5	Taras Bulba (57)	7-2	5 ran	2:28.86G
three	1st	22-May-76	Eagle Farm	Grand Prix	2200m	M Campbell	58	Cheyne Walk (56.5)	5-1	10 ran	2:33.5H
three	1st	5-Jun-76	Eagle Farm	O’Shea Stakes	2200m	M Campbell	54.5	Participator (57.5)	4-6 f	14 ran	2:16.1G
three	1st	12-Jun-76	Eagle Farm	Brisbane Cup	3200m	M Campbell	54.5	Participator (54.5)	5-4 f	15 ran	3:24.2G
four	2nd	18-Sep-76	Moonee Valley	Feehan Stakes	1600m	M Campbell	57	Mer Cler (54.5)	13-8 f	16 ran	1:40.1S
four	2nd	2-Oct-76	Flemington	Turnbull Stakes	2000m	M Campbell	57.5	Denise’s Joy (55.5)	2-5 f	8 ran	2:04.1G
four	4th	9-Oct-76	Caulfield	Caulfield Stakes	2000m	M Campbell	57	Perhaps (56.5)	6-4 f	9 ran	2:04.8S
four	2nd	23-Feb-77	Waikato	Lion Brown Sprint	1400m	M Campbell	57	Soliloquy (56)	4-4	12 ran	1:23.1Easy
four	1st	5-Mar-77	Ellerslie	Air NZ Stakes	2000m	M Campbell	57	Tudor Light (55.5)	1/1 f	9 ran	2:02.7G
four	1st	26-Mar-77	Awapuni	Gold Cup	2000m	M Campbell	57	Copper Belt (58)	1/1 f	7 ran	2:03.4Easy
four	1st	9-Apr-77	Randwick	Autumn Stakes	2000m	M Campbell	57	Gold And Black (57)	4-9 f	6 ran	2:08.0G
four	6th	11-Apr-77	Randwick	Sydney Cup	3200m	M Campbell	59	Reckless (55)		20 ran	3:19.4G
four	1st	23-Apr-77	Hawkes Bay	Ormond Memorial	2000m	M Campbell	57	Fraxy (57)	1/1 f	8 ran	2:08.2Soft
five	1st	12-Sep-77	Goodwood	Valdoe Stakes		R Hutchinson	61	Lucent (55.5)	6-1	9 ran	02:11.9
five	2nd	Oct-77	Milan	Coppa ‘Oro	2400m	R Hutchinson	58.5	Statef (56)		8 ran	02:33.8
five	2nd	2-Nov-77	Longchamps	Arc de Triomphe	2400m	R Hutchinson	59	Alleged (56)		26 ran	02:30.6
five	4th	5-Nov-77	Laurel Park	Washington International		R Hutchinson	57.5	Johnny Majestic (54.5)		8 ran	02:42.0
five	4th	30-Apr-78	Longchamp	Prix Gannay	2100m	W Carson	58	Monsiegneur (58)		8 ran	02:18.3
five	1st	23-May-78	Goodwood	Graham Stakes	10 f	G Starkey	60.5	Uncle Pokey (57)	8-11 f	6 ran	02:10.3
five	2nd	8-Jun-78	Epsom	Coronation Cup	12 f	G Starkey	57	Crow (57)	6-5 f	5 ran	02:34.2
five	3rd	23-Jun-78	Royal Ascot	Hardwicke Stakes	12 f	G Starkey	57	Montcontour (56.5)		8 ran	02:33.3
five	2nd	8-Jul-78	Sandown (Eng.)	Eclipse Stakes	11 f	G Starkey	60.5	Gunner B (60.5)		9 ran	02:05.5
five	5th		Royal Ascot	KG & QE2 Stakes	12 f	M Campbell	60.5	Ile de Bourbon (54.5)		14 ran	02:30.5
six	6th	22-Aug-78	York	Gold Cup	10 f	G Starkey	60	Hawaiian Sound (55.5)		10 ran	02:09.7

STARTS : 42 (21 WINS, 11 2NDS, 2 3RDS, 8 UNPLACED)

GROUP 1 WINS : 5 (races that are currently Group 1)

Those NZ Racing Hall of Fame videos are excellent.

I suppose what I was driving at was that if Balmerino was a length or so off Alleged what about the likes of Lord Dudley, Cheyne Walk, Denise's Joy and Taras Bulba ? They were all very competitive with Balmerino in Australia.  Does it follow that they would have all been as competitive overseas as Balmerino was ?

I think so.  I think our best horses have always been up the standard of international competition, but when one or two of them actually go overseas and prove it we tend to put them on pedestals above the regard we had for them at home.   

Perhaps Choisir is a good example.  Prior to his success in England Choisir was borderline despicable in Australia with a great many who wanted him publicly gelded for his indiscretions.  Win in England- national hero.  If he hadn't go there and done that he would probably be remembered as that nutcase colt in the pacifiers.

 

Cheyne Walk was a ripper

Bloody shame it's so hard to find the race records of these horses