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Offline pwa54

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« 2020-Apr-28, 03:37 PM Reply #475 »
Mosheen has 4 but deserves an asterisk in more ways than one!

It's hard to find horses pre-1970 who won more than 4 against their own age groups at 2 and 3.  The only other colt I've found with 5 was Rampion in the 1920s.

Almost all were aimed in the autumn of their 3yo season at the St Legers or open races.

Offline pwa54

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« 2020-Apr-28, 03:44 PM Reply #476 »
Gay Icarus a favourite of mine too, Wily.

7/4 favourite for the Cup in 1971, top weight with 61 the next year.  A very good horse, he and Balmerino both in my top 10 of the 1970s.

Gunsynd
Surround
Dulcify
Balmerino
Leilani
Luskin Star
Tontonan
Gay Icarus
Maybe Mahal
Family of Man

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2020-Apr-28, 04:22 PM Reply #477 »

Ok, after reviewing many lists this is mine since I started watching.
Are they the best :chin: I wouldnít swap any of them off the list, letís put it that way :thumbsup:
Perhaps BLU is the exception

Kingston Town
Manikato
Vo Rogue
Winx
Gunsynd
Lonhro
Dulcify
Our Maizcay
starspangledbanner
Better Loosen Up
« Last Edit: 2020-Apr-28, 04:40 PM by wily ole dog »

Online PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Apr-28, 04:41 PM Reply #478 »

Ok, after reviewing many lists this is mine since I started watching.
Are they the best :chin: I wouldnít swap any of them off the list, letís put it that way :thumbsup:

Kingston Town
Manikato
Vo Rogue
Winx
Gunsynd
Lonhro
Dulcify
Our Maizcay
starspangledbanner
Better Loosen Up

Mate that is a very, very provocative list. Almost fightin' words!

There is one sprinter who is missing and her fans are demanding an explanation, as well as those of a particular staying mare   :lol:

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2020-Apr-28, 04:52 PM Reply #479 »
Sorry mate, I couldnít fit Placid Arc & Lets Elope In but letís Elope could easily replace BLU

Online PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Apr-28, 04:58 PM Reply #480 »
Sorry mate, I couldnít fit Placid Arc & Lets Elope In but letís Elope could easily replace BLU

  :lol:

100 words minimum. Point format.

Online JWesleyHarding

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« 2020-Apr-28, 05:12 PM Reply #481 »
Horse makes Wily's list   
   

MVRC William Reid Stakes   G1
VATC Futurity Stakes   G1
WATC Winfield Stakes   G1
AJC George Main Stakes   G1
VRC Australian Cup   G1
VRC Australian Cup   G1
   
Horse doesn't make Wily's list   
   
AJC Doncaster Handicap   G1
AJC Epsom Handicap   G1
AJC Chipping Norton Stakes   G1
AJC Doncaster Handicap   G1
AJC Epsom Handicap   G1
STC Ranvet Stakes   G1
AJC Chipping Norton Stakes   G1
MVRC WS Cox Plate   G1

Offline Jeunes

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« 2020-Apr-28, 05:52 PM Reply #482 »
Horse makes Wily's list   
   

MVRC William Reid Stakes   G1
VATC Futurity Stakes   G1
WATC Winfield Stakes   G1
AJC George Main Stakes   G1
VRC Australian Cup   G1
VRC Australian Cup   G1
   
Horse doesn't make Wily's list   
   
AJC Doncaster Handicap   G1
AJC Epsom Handicap   G1
AJC Chipping Norton Stakes   G1
AJC Doncaster Handicap   G1
AJC Epsom Handicap   G1
STC Ranvet Stakes   G1
AJC Chipping Norton Stakes   G1
MVRC WS Cox Plate   G1

Are we talking about Super and he was placed in a MC too. He also finished 2nd to Vo Rogue, Better Loosen Up and Shaftesbury Avenue plus Letís Elope if I am correct.

Offline Jeunes

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« 2020-Apr-28, 06:24 PM Reply #483 »
I was giving one point for set weights 2 and 3yo races. Zero points for open class wins as a 3yo - just an asterisk.

So Octagonal scores 4 with 2 asterisks if you like.

I think pwa might be giving them a point for all G1 victories as a 2 or 3yo (not many 2yos but Desirable did win a Lightning Stakes in my time).

But all good fun. I think both ways bring out the best 2/3 year olds.

Just in regards to Beau Zam, after potting Luskin Star I'm going to pot him as well just to stir the conversation up    :biggrin:  

i) He never won in melbourne
ii) He really only had one outstanding campaign and that was in the Autumn of 1988 where he won 5 in a row at the Sydney carnival + special QE race in Canberra. The horses he beat we

Bonhomie
Highland Chieftan
Brixton Town
Palace Revolt and
Bonecrusher (I'll pot him later too).

I think he struck a particularly poor year and if you take out those 5 wins his career was unremarkable. Certainly no longevity in his success.

When he came back as a 4yo his two Group 1 successes were against Eye Of The Sky and Zamakima. And after only 7 runs as a 4yo they sent him off to stud. Yet another good 3yo that disappointingly did not go on with it as a 4yo - in my humblest of opinions of course.

http://www.racehorsetalk.com.au/racing-talk/race-records-of-champion-racehorses/1125/#msg_610727

As opposed to Octagonal who, as a 2 and 3yo , was either beating champions or just getting beat by them.

Them fighting words about Beau Zam.   :lol:

He should have won the CC on the bog track against the grand swimmer Lord Reims. He should have never raced in the Cox Plate and given a break before the Derby. He was never the same after he got injured as a 4yo in the spring but he still managed to win some races just on class.


Offline fours

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« 2020-Apr-28, 06:28 PM Reply #484 »
Hmmmm,

How on earth could Mosheen get a mention here.

Only performed after a Smerdon shake down for mine.

Fours

Offline Jeunes

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« 2020-Apr-28, 06:37 PM Reply #485 »
My top 10 from 1985 onwards when I started to take more interest in horses. Some may not have great records but were entertaining to say the least.

1. Winx
2. Black Caviar
3. Octagonal
4. Saintly
5. Makybe Diva
6. Mahogany
7. So You Think
8. Super Impose
9. Sunline
10. Schillachi

Offline timw

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« 2020-Apr-28, 07:06 PM Reply #486 »
PWA and others I need to read over your recent posts but noted that PWA mentioned Balmerino.  Funnily enough I have put him in my NZ top 10 of all time see below. 

Cheers

Top Ten Horses New Zealand

My top 10 list (in foal year order)

I have not considered horses that were NZ bred but raced outside New Zealand such as Phar Lap, Tulloch, Leilani, Super Impose, Octagonal and more recently So You Think and Beauty Generation.

Gloaming was considered because he was NZ owned and raced principally in New Zealand.  He was not considered for the Top Ten Australia and neither was Carbine as he raced in New Zealand as a two old and was owned by a New Zealander until his sale to an Australian at the end of his 3YO year. A horse can only be in one 'Hall of Fame' of mine. 

Don't claim to know much about NZ racing so would be keen to hear from the Kiwis.  This is lockdown therapy part 4.

CARBINE (NZ) 1885
Career record: 43 starts: 33 wins (9 x G1 later), 6 seconds, 3 thirds. Win % 76.7, Place % 97.7. (New Zealand: Starts 5: 5-0-0-0; Australia: Starts 38: 28-6-3-1)
Retired as Australasia's greatest stakewinner and held the record until passed by Eurythmic (AUS) 1916. 

DESERT GOLD (NZ) 1912
Career record: 59 starts: 36 wins (5 x G1 later), 13 seconds, 5 thirds. Win % 61.0, Place % 91.5. (New Zealand: Starts 49: 32-9-5-3; Australia: Starts 10: 4-4-0-2)
She won 19 races in a row later equalled by Gloaming and passed by Winx.

GLOAMING (AUS) 1915
Career record: 67 starts: 57 wins (4 x G1 later), 9 seconds, 0 thirds. Win % 85.1, Place % 98.5. (Australia: Starts 14: 9-5-0-0; New Zealand: Starts 53: 48-4-0-1)
Gloaming passed Eurythmic to become the Australasian earnings record holder.

DEFAULTER (NZ) 1935
Career record: 28 starts: 22 wins (5 x G1 later), 1 second, 0 thirds. Win % 78.6, Place % 85.7. (New Zealand: Starts 22: 17-1-1-3 ; Australia (Sydney): Starts 6: 5-0-0-1 )
After a couple of missteps early in his career (1 win from first 5 starts) Defaulter was only beaten twice in his next 23 starts. He ran second beaten half a length at his first start as a 3YO and while still a 3YO ran 16th of 18 in the Sydney Cup of 1939 when was severely interfered within the first furlong and struck the running rail with his near hind leg. He made amends 5 days later when he beat the Sydney Cup winner by 2 lengths at WFA in the AJC Plate (now Queen Elizabeth Stakes) over 2ľ miles (3621m.).   

BEAU VITE (NZ) 1936
Career record: 60 starts: 31 wins (10 x G1 later), 9 seconds, 5 thirds. Win % 51.5, Place % 75.0. (New Zealand: Starts 23: 13-4-2-4 ; Australia: Starts 37: 18-5-3-11 )
Not just a home town performer. Performed well on both sides of the Tasman.

KINDERGARTEN (NZ) 1937
Career record: 35 starts: 25 wins (6 x G1 later), 3 seconds, 3 thirds. Win % 71.4, Place % 88.6. (New Zealand: Starts 34: 25-3-2-4 ; Australia: Starts 1: 0-0-1-0)
Ran a dead heat for third in his only Australian start in the 1941 Warwick Stakes run at Randwick. Post race commentary suggests Kindergarten's jockey was outgeneralled by the other jockeys and would have won if given a clear passage to the finish line.

DARYL'S JOY (NZ) 1966
Career record: 30 starts: 16 wins (5 x G1 later), 9 seconds, 4 thirds. Win % 53.3, Place % 96.7. (New Zealand: Starts 14: 7-5-2-0; Australia: Starts 5: 3-1-1-0; United States: Starts  11: 6-3-1-1. 
Only missed a place once at his first start in the USA.  He passed Sailor's Guide to become the Australasian earnings record holder.

BALMERINO (NZ) 1972
Career record: 46 starts: 22 wins (5 x G1), 11 seconds, 2 thirds. Win % 47.8, Place % 76.1. (New Zealand: Starts 19: 13-4-1-1; Australia: Starts 12: 6-3-0-3; United States: Starts 5: 1-0-0-4; England: Starts 7:  2-2-1-2; France: Starts 2: 0-1-0-1;  Italy:                                     Starts 1: 0-1-0-0                        . 
Raced everywhere.  Ran second in the Arc to Alleged.  Lost a group 1 in Italy on protest where the margin was a short half head. His worst performances were in the USA where he managed one win and a fourth in the Washington SC International where he was well beaten. Balmerino passed Battle Heights to become the Australasian earnings record holder.

HORLICKS (NZ) 1983
40 starts, 18 wins (6 x Group 1), 9 seconds and 2 thirds.  Win % 45.0, Place % 72.5. (New Zealand: Starts 34: 16-8-1-9; Australia: Starts 5: 1-1-1-2; Japan: Starts: 1-1-0-0)
Horlicks Japan Cup win in course record time easily gets her into the Top Ten.

SUNLINE (NZ) 1995
48 starts, 32 wins (13 x Group 1), 9 seconds, 3 thirds.  Win % 45.0, Place % 72.5. (New Zealand: Starts 10: 10-0-0-0; Australia: Starts 35: 21-9-2-3; Hong Kong: Starts: 2-1-0-1; UAE (Dubai) Starts: 1: 0-0-1-0
Arguably New Zealand's second best horse after Carbine.


Offline timw

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« 2020-Apr-29, 06:22 PM Reply #487 »
Just grabbed Mark Taylor's 'Century of Champions' (Australia and New Zealand) to have a look at those champions that raced in the 1970s and the 18 a

Baguette
Daryl's Joy (1970 &-1971 -4 major wins in USA)
Dual Choice
Gay Icarus
Gunsynd
Battle Heights
Showgate (30 wins but none a G1 and never raced in Australia)
Grey Way (51 wins but no 'major' wins in Australia)
Leilani
Balmerino
Maybe Mahal
Family of Man
La Mer (24 wins, 3 x G1 but no group or listed wins in Australia)
Luskin Star
Surround
Uncle Remus (15 wins, 2 x G1 but no group or listed wins in Australia)
Dulcify
Manikato (7 x G1 before end of 1980) (I count 1980 as in 1970s decade something most donít do)

Exclusions
Hyperno (most group wins in 1980s)

Cheers

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2020-Apr-29, 09:25 PM Reply #488 »
.

Offline fours

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« 2020-May-02, 04:26 PM Reply #489 »
Hmmmm,

Why isn't First Seal mentioned here?

Just how many times did the horse donkey lick Winx?

What do you have to do?

Fours

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2020-May-02, 05:33 PM Reply #490 »
I take your point  but First Seal after beating Winx, raced on without achieving anything of note

Offline timw

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« 2020-May-04, 10:28 AM Reply #491 »
As part of lockdown therapy I have started work on a list of the top ten European flat horses of the modern racing era, applying some Australian knowledge and little reading, I have decided the European modern racing era commenced in the 1860s.     

From my own data base I had selected 161 horses covering foal years 1862 to 2014 and from there I intend to narrow down the list. 

To run a check on my list I looked up the Timeform wikipedia page which should list all flat horses with a Timeform rating of 135+ commencing with foal year 1942 and ending with foal year 2014.

Of those listed 108 raced in Europe.  Interestingly I had picked just 28 of those post WWII horses ignoring 80.  It means I have selected 89 European flat horses as candidates that rated under 135 over the same period.   

I would struggle to justify including Arctic Prince (GB) 1948 in any list.  He was given a Timeform rating of 135 for a 5 start career. He won twice and was unplaced three times. He won a 2YO maiden at Redcar and the Epsom Derby. He broke down in the King George and was retired.  His wikipedia page refers to the book A Century of Champions and notes that John Randall and Tony Morris rated Arctic Prince an ďaverageĒ Derby winner and the one hundred and ninth best British racehorse of the 20th Century. 

Many of the horses highly rated by Timeform that I did not select had no more than one dozen starts and only four had more than 20 starts.  Timeform gave Black Caviar 136 and Winx 134.

Offline pwa54

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« 2020-May-04, 05:20 PM Reply #492 »
Tim, I'm enjoying your lists of international horses.

In relation to the New Zealanders, where would you put Mainbrace?

« Last Edit: 2020-May-04, 05:25 PM by pwa54 »

Offline timw

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« 2020-May-04, 06:33 PM Reply #493 »
pwa: re Mainbrace:

A positive is that he won six times at WFA from 7f. to 11f (another win was WFA & allces). A negative is that he only won beyond 11f. (up to 14f.) against 3YOs ( I would hate to tell the poms I don't rate the St Leger unless the winner repeats a top class win over that distance or further as an older horse).  A positive is that he equalled or broke race records from 7f. to 14f. but he did not break a course record. A positive is that he smashed some fields but I do not recognise the names of those he smashed which might be my ignorance.  He did not race in Australia which harms his claims and did not win enough races later classed as group 1 (only 2). 

I saw Red Anchor win the Cox Plate and thought he was one of the best I have seen but then injury struck in the autumn so he fails to make my top ten because his career was cut short.  Mainbrace, disappointingly, falls into that category. 

Despite my reservations he was one of the all time great 3YOs in this part of the world just not good enough for a top 10. Now there is another category for a top ten.

Offline pwa54

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« 2020-May-04, 09:04 PM Reply #494 »
Thanks Tim.

Mainbrace and Dalray could easily be 11 and 12 on your list and they emerged in successive years. I checked the 1952 Cup weights and the year older Mainbrace was given 2lbs more than Dalray, which had some Sydney autumn form.

Red Anchor could have been anything. I'd probably disagree re those not racing beyond 3 years. Vain, for example, falls into that category and he was a champion. But that's the pleasure of lists, nobody is going to fully agree.  Sobar's Caulfield Cup was as good a spring 3yo run as I've seen.  If he'd retired then, I'd have rated him as a superstar but ...

Offline timw

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« 2020-May-19, 09:57 PM Reply #495 »
Top Ten Europe (flat racing)

The Top Ten Europe (flat racing) was selected from those horses that raced in the modern era of flat horse racing which I have taken to align with the running of the first Melbourne Cup in 1861. 
34 finalists were short listed  from over 160 horses who I selected based on the following factors: their overall record (win and place %), the number of group 1 races won (including races that were given group 1 status later) with weighting towards those who won group 1 races against older horses.
I don't know a lot about European racing so this was the hardest of the top ten's to date. 

The Top Ten Europe (flat racing) in foal year order a

Gladiateur (FR) 1862
19 starts: 16 wins (6 x G1 later; 4 in UK, 2 in FR), 0 seconds, 1 thirds.  Win % 84.2, Place % 89.5
Gave the English a hiding in England winning the English 3YO triple crown in 1865 and the Ascot Gold Cup the following year.  Known as the 'Avenger of Waterloo' the French were so grateful they cast a statue in his honour which is at Longchamp. He retired undisputed world earnings leader in USD earning USD 235,822.

Kincsem (HUN) 1874 (mare)
55 starts: 54 wins + 1DH (won run-off) (3 x G1 later), 0 seconds, 0 thirds.  Win % 100.0, Place % 100.0.
Beat the French and the English on their soil a feat which hadn't been achieved by an outsider since Julius Caesar proclaimed "veni vidi vici".

Pretty Polly (IRE) 1901 (mare)
24 starts: 22 wins (8 x G1 later), 2 seconds, 0 thirds,  Win % 91.7, Place % 100.0
Champion filly who won the English Fillies Triple Crown and won in open company as 4 and 5 year old winning 8 races later classified as group 1 races.

Bayardo (GB) 1906
25 starts: 22 wins (6 x G1 later), 1 seconds, 0 thirds,  Win % 88.0, Place % 92.0
He won 6 races later classified group 1 in England and won at least one in every year from age 2 to age 4.  Beaten by a neck in his last race due to a lamentable performance by his jockey. 

Ksar (FR) 1918
15 starts: 11 wins (1 x dead heat, 8 x G1 later), 3 seconds, 0 thirds,  Win % 73.3, Place % 93.3.
He won 8 races in France later classified as group 1 from age 2 to age 4 including the Arc twice.  His wikipedia page states he won Prix du President de la Republique 1922 whereas I believe he ran second beaten a head.  His worst finish was fourth in 1921 Grand Prix de Paris.

Ribot (GB) 1952
16 starts: 16 wins (5 x G1 later), 0 seconds, 0 thirds.  Win % 100.0, Place % 100.0.
Won two Arcs and the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes.  Better than Frankel so the best horse ever.

Brigadier Gerard (GB) 1968
18 starts, 17 wins (7 x G1 later), 1 second, 0 thirds.  Win % 94.4, Place % 100.0.
Beat Mill Reef in their only meeting in the 2000 Guineas.  Only defeat occurred in the Benson and Hedges Gold Cup over 10.5f by Roberto (3 lengths, both broke the course record) and some thought Roberto may have run above himself that day. Roberto was well beaten at his next start in France.

Allez France (USA) 1970 (mare)
21 starts, 13 wins (8 x G1), 3 seconds, 1 third.  Win % 61.9, Place % 81.0.
She raced from age 2 to age 5 winning a group 1 race at each age.   Four group 1 wins were in open company including the 1974 Arc.  Met Dahlia four times and finished in front of her each time.

Goldikova (IRE) 2005 (mare)
27 starts: 17 wins (14 x G1), 6 seconds, 3 thirds.  Win % 63.0, Place % 96.3.
She was a top class miler who raced at age 2 to age 6.  From age 3 she won nine group 1 races in open company in France, England and the USA proving she could win anywhere.

Frankel (GB) 2008
14 starts, 14 wins (10 x G1), 0 seconds, 0 thirds.  Win % 100.0, Place % 100.0.
He raced from age 2 to age 4 and was a top class miler who could run 10f. Unbeaten with 7 group 1 wins in open company.

The 24 shortlisted that did not make the final 10 are listed below for information:
St Simon (GB) 1881
Ormonde (GB) 1883
Donovan (GB) 1886
La Fleche (GB) 1889 (mare)
Orme (GB) 1889
Isinglass (GB) 1890
Sansonetto (ITY) 1891
La Camargo (FR) 1898 (mare)
Lemberg (GB) 1907
Oleander (GER) 1924
BrantŰme (FR) 1931
Nearco (ITY) 1935
Djebel (FR) 1937
Tenerani (ITY) 1944
Tantieme (FR) 1947
Petite Etoile (GB) 1956 (mare)
Nijinsky II (CAN) 1967
Mill Reef (USA) 1968
Dahlia (USA) 1970 (mare)
Exceller (USA) 1973
Triptych (USA) 1982 (mare)
Miesque (USA) 1984 (mare)
Rock of Gibraltar (IRE) 1999
Enable (GB) 2014 (mare)
If Enable races well (if at all) in 2020 she will be considered for a place in the top ten.

Offline fours

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« 2020-May-20, 08:08 AM Reply #496 »
Hmmm,

Is Almond Eye on track for this list?

Fours

Offline timw

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« 2020-May-21, 06:26 PM Reply #497 »
fours

I am currently working on a North American top 10 and then Japan and Hong Kong to follow after that. If you are wondering whether she will be rated higher than Enable then my answer is a follows:

 Almond Eye versus Enable

If Almond Eye follows her pattern of racing over the last 2 years she may only have 2 more starts this year both later in the year.  To date she has won 3 (of 7) group 1 races in open company.  The other 4 wins were same sex wins.

Enable could have 4 starts this year if she follows last years pattern.  She has won 10 group 1s of which 6 were in open company.  If she had won the 2019 Arc I would have put her in the all time top 10 ahead of Winx.  I think 3 Arcs and 2 King Georgeís plus other wins would have left her holding the unbeatable hand but she didn't quite get there.. 

So even if Almond Eye were to go to France and win the Arc (which might be a bog and a problem) she canít catch Enable.  All that can happen this year is that both can go backwards with poor results. 

Cheers

Offline fours

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« 2020-May-21, 06:40 PM Reply #498 »
timw,

I mentioned First Seal a while back as there may be an inherent bias in these lists.

The bias is to favour runs towards the end of a horses career. Is this a desirable thing or a correct thing to do?

There is no question that First Seal dominated Winx yet the horse is a long way from getting a mention. Takes some one like me looking for errors in commonly made assumptions for that to happen.

Fours

Offline timw

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« 2020-May-26, 07:21 PM Reply #499 »
Vain v Frankel (both had 14 starts)

I have recently been corresponding with someone about Frankel who holds the belief that he would have beaten the best over 2400m despite that fact that he never raced beyond abt 2000m.

pwa54 wrote recently: "I'd probably disagree re those not racing beyond 3 years. Vain, for example, falls into that category and he was a champion."
I decided to look again at their careers

Brian Mc wrote on 27 Feb 2013: "Vain lost twice in 14 starts.  Once was in the AJC Sires where the second-rater Beau Babylon ran him down; a week later in the Champagne (then 6 furlongs) Vain made mince-meat of Beau Babylon beating Gaelic Spirit and BB by the mere 10 lengths.  His other loss was in the  Moonee Valley Stakes where the very, very good horse Daryl's Joy, much fitter than Vain on the day of the race ran him down.  At the next start for both horses, the Caufield Guineas,  Vain downed Daryl's Joy by 3 lengths in record time."

Vain competed 4 times against older horses and won all four whereas Secretariat could only manage 2 wins from 4 against older horses. 
Vain's 2 losses were both by 0.75L (a total of 1.5L).  Vain's cumulative winning margin (after deducting 2 losses) was 59 lengths.  If I notionally allow that he carried a combined 6.75kgs over WFA in his 2 open handicap wins (Frankel never raced in a handicap) I could notionally add 6.75 lenghs to that total giving a notional winning margin of 65.75 lengths.  Frankel's cumulative winning margin was 76.25 lengths a decent advantage by any measure. 

If we look at time records (champs often set a time record) Frankel set none. 

The closest Frankel came to a race record was a miss by 0.64 of second in the 2012 Queen Anne Stakes.  From start 4 (the first for which I have information) to start 13 (start 14 time I have treated as a very slow outlier and omitted) he averaged 2.02 seconds slower than the race record (I have no information on the course records).

Vain set two race records and one track record. For the 11 races where I have race records over 6f and further (including the two losses for which I have added 0.1 of a second to the winning time for each to measure Vain's time) Vain finished an average of 0.55 seconds per race outside the race record.
Assuming all things being equal Vain ran an average of 1.47 seconds per race faster than Frankel.
Frankel's times were taken over an average of 1613 metres whereas Vain's times were taken over an average of 1481 metres.   

But wait there's more.  Frankel raced at age four so he had maturity on his side.  If you flip Vain's career around and assume he was foaled according to Northern hemisphere time with a year commencing 1 January rather than 1 August Vain's entire 14 start career was over by  11 April of a northern hemisphere 3YO year.  Frankel's first start as a 3YO (5th start overall) was still 5 days away.  This would have been a significant advantage against older horses. Frankel's first start against older horses was still over 3 months away when Vain retired. 

I know there are lies, damned lies and statistics, but I hope this is food for thought.

If Vain had gone undefeated where would he rightfully sit ?


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