Author Topic: Kick Back for the Rebate Debate (Read 18064 times)

jfc · O.P. « 2018-May-20, 01:12 PM »

This is an attempt to confine all the debate about Kickbacks to this topic.

Anyone with rational contributions welcome.

Wow! 26 visits before any new contributions!

jfc · « 2018-May-20, 01:14 PM **Reply #1** »

Quote from: Antitab# on 2018-May-20, 08:49 AM

To play Devils advocate.

In all parts of society those that buy in bulk getter a better price than this that don’t.

For instance Coles and Woolworths pay significantly less for product than small retailers like IGA and other Independent stores for exactly the same item.

Betfair does exactly the same with commission rates. The biggest syndicate, has been on 0 commission on Aust racing to provide liquidity since the day the “fair” opened.

Why no outcry re Betfair?

If I run the Tab why not charge less to the “wholesaler” to guarantee liquidity in market. Rebates do mean that the syndicates bet bigger and pools are larger.

I am not privy to the numbers, but rebates MAY mean Tabcorp make more money than if they didn’t offer them. Ie 3% of triple is worth more than 7% of a single.

Lastly Tatts pools are so small they are close to terminal as no body can have a decent bet. Even 3 or $400 distorts pools in harness and greyhound. Rebates will mean that Tabcorp diminishing pools are held up due to the extra turnover they attract.

jfc · « 2018-May-20, 01:15 PM **Reply #2** »

Quote from: jfc on 2018-May-20, 09:29 AM

Any number of ways to rebut this.

Above I showed where Zeljko virtually confessed to "depreciating" markets - i.e. turning every Over into an Under. Because the generous Kickbacks more than suffice.

That means no one without a Kickback can win long-term on the Totes.

So all that competition is removed.

Imagine an intelligent small punter who does his homework and manages to win (or come real close).

The money may not be his main reward. The prestige gained from outdoing his mates at work or the club is paramount.

While he keeps having winning days, he'll keep punting. As will his mates keen to match his record.

But now he inevitably finds himself losing, and he'll find something more fulfilling to play like Sports betting or Poker tournaments.

Whereupon Tabcorp has lost 40 years revenue from him and his mates.

This is hardly a theory, you can see the effects in Tabcorp's KPIs.

jfc · « 2018-May-20, 01:17 PM **Reply #3** »

Quote from: Antitab# on 2018-May-20, 11:22 AM

You are so obsessed with Zjelko you are missing the point.

After rounding TAB take out is close to 117% win. I am prepared to say no one wins at SP at a rate to make a profit betting into that pool. So I agree , you can’t win without rebates.

Tabcorp are running a business , they have identified for the reasons in my prior post that Pari mutual is more profitable for them if they attract wholesalers investing by offering rebates .

Zjelko, other syndicates and also individuals are in the fortunate position where they bet at a scale to take advantage of these rebates. Similar to Betfair these rebates increase as the entities turnover increase.

Its well advertised , not corrupt, it happens in every industry in the world and as I said also happens at Betfair which. I never see any complaints about.

jfc · « 2018-May-20, 02:52 PM **Reply #4** »

"In all parts of society those that buy in bulk getter a better price than this that don’t."

Wrong!

This has nothing to do with buying in bulk.

This has nothing to do with Tabcorp or any other gambling operator.

All of these are bound by government rules intended to protect punters.

In a Player versus Bank game, Kickbacks are fine to selected players. Because that does not adversely affect other players.

But for a Player versus Player game, Kickbacks are typically not fine. Because those with Kickbacks can wipe out those without them.

So Kickbacks are fine for -

Blackjack
Baccarat

But wrong for -

Totes
Keno
Lotto.

Now for a specific example consider Tote Tasmania.

The Kickbacks and turnover for them was so huge, that the effective takeout rates for Victoria exceeded the maximum legal limits.

That arrangement broke Victorian law.

The Sports Minister should have been sacked.

Instead he was made Premier!

Bubbasmith · « 2018-May-20, 02:53 PM **Reply #5** »

Antitab, rebates are well advertised ??? I doubt too many average / retail ( mug ) punters would be aware some punters are receiving rebates of 10% to 8 % rebates. One racing administrator once said average punters would not know whether a tote pool was subject to a deduction rate of 5% or 20%, I would therefore imagine rebates would hardly enter their minds.

However if, as you say, they are "well advertised", can you direct me to where can I find on any TAB website or publication or annual report the different rates of rebates for turnover thresholds ?

Peter Mair · « 2018-May-20, 04:04 PM **Reply #6** »

.................. apart from the injustice of rebates on bets into a tote pool...........the rorting is compounded when the administrators institutionalise the corruption of the races by cluttering fields with runners competing for 10th but having no hope of winning.

This is greed writ large and gone mad as would be soon established by any proper inquiry or , god help us, any of the main racing media players bringing to racing the 'investigative journalism' commitment they espouse in other arenas.

It seems the independence of the media has been brought to silence with the pieces of silver paid to have the form guides published.

jfc · « 2018-May-20, 05:18 PM **Reply #7** »

Quote from: Bubbasmith on 2018-May-20, 02:53 PM

Antitab, rebates are well advertised ??? I doubt too many average / retail ( mug ) punters would be aware some punters are receiving rebates of 10% to 8 % rebates. One racing administrator once said average punters would not know whether a tote pool was subject to a deduction rate of 5% or 20%, I would therefore imagine rebates would hardly enter their minds.

However if, as you say, they are "well advertised", can you direct me to where can I find on any TAB website or publication or annual report the different rates of rebates for turnover thresholds ?

In her opus Kate wrote that Tabcorp refused to even tell her the minimum turnover required for rebates.

Bear in mind many (with the notable exception of AntiTab#) consider her Australia's foremost investigative journalist, so imagine how tough it would be for retail punters to find out!

Also note that the NSW government publicly stipulates a $3 million minimum for their $130? million tax relief so it is hardly a state secret.

So it seems to me that Tabcorp functionary might have broken some law.

fours · « 2018-May-20, 05:28 PM **Reply #8** »

Remember the poster Vo Rogue?

At the time he was complaining loud and long about the trot bettor hitting almost every very short favourite for the place into 1.04 or less.

No doubt a desperate attempt to meet the minimum turnover requirements and retain his rebates going forward.

Vo Rogue did not like the way this affected other people betting and note that the formula for place dividends DOES allow the dividend paid to other place getters to be stolen from.

Stolen is not too strong a word.

Fours

ratsack · « 2018-May-20, 07:46 PM **Reply #9** »

do they give kickbacks for the hong kong tote betting ?

if they don't why don't all the smarties here bet into that pool ?

jfc · « 2018-May-20, 07:51 PM **Reply #10** »

Only joke ones.

So the big spending illuminati find more fertile ground.

HKJC, Triads, Woods estate, whatever.

bascoe · « 2018-May-21, 01:54 AM **Reply #11** »

Quote from: ratsack on 2018-May-20, 07:46 PM

do they give kickbacks for the hong kong tote betting ?

if they don't why don't all the smarties here bet into that pool ?

Yes - 14% Q T QUINPLACE(duets) and triple trio - but those rebates are not from Australian tabs....

And that’s is exactly why there are A$5 mil pools for every race in Q and QPS pools -mainly pros.

If you live outside Australia- say New Zealand -
PGI will welcome you if you can turnover enough- and not just HKG - just about everywhere else is an option except Australia

Sent from my iPhone using Racehorse Talk

jfc · « 2018-May-21, 07:41 AM **Reply #12** »

Quote from: Antitab# on 2018-May-20, 08:49 AM

Betfair does exactly the same with commission rates. The biggest syndicate, has been on 0 commission on Aust racing to provide liquidity since the day the “fair” opened.

Why no outcry re Betfair?

What Betfair does bears no resemblance to the Kickback malpractices of Tabcorp et al.

On Betfair you agree with a counterparty about the odds of a contingency.

If you transact then you get a price you believe is fair.

Any Kickback the counterparty may be getting is irrelevant to your prospects.

Antitab# · « 2018-May-21, 07:57 AM **Reply #13** »

All true about Betfair.

However when the horse wins at 4/1 , depending on which state the race was run the punter can receive anywhere between $4.60 and $5.

Those who bet the biggest are paid $5 down to the little fish who receive maximim comm rate and are paid the least at $4.60.

It may be packaged differently to a Pari mutual paying rebates but the result is the same.

You can tell from the name I post under that I am no fan of Tabcorp but paying rebates makes sense to me from their point of view.

jfc · « 2018-May-21, 08:42 AM **Reply #14** »

On Betfair, you know-

Price
Commission
Discount

Therefore you can deduce the real price.

And transact if you consider that fair.

No one can challenge the fairness of such a set up.

Tracksuitdave · « 2018-May-21, 10:32 AM **Reply #15** »

If someone is in receipt of a no commission rebate deal they can take better prices. If they can also beat the clock then John Wilson is your uncle. I would be interested to know why the gentleman with the Italian sounding name has been boasting about this ever since he became John Wilson´s personal butler?

jfc · « 2018-May-21, 11:05 AM **Reply #16** »

Not sure how many times I need to repeat this.

This is not whether or not Zeljko, Woods and their ilk are destroying Betfair.

It's whether Betfair punters are disadvantaged by rebates.

And because they choose at what price to transact they are not disadvantaged.

PoisonPen7 · « 2018-May-21, 04:38 PM **Reply #17** »

Quote from: jfc on 2018-May-21, 11:05 AM

Not sure how many times I need to repeat this.

This is not whether or not Zeljko, Woods and their ilk are destroying Betfair.

It's whether Betfair punters are disadvantaged by rebates.

And because they choose at what price to transact they are not disadvantaged.

Or they can choose not to transact because they don't see value.....just like non Betfair punters.

jfc · « 2018-May-21, 05:36 PM **Reply #18** »

Rubbish.

Tote punters have no way of telling whether any contingency is value.

Because Zeljko's bets never appear before on indicators until after the jump.

Zeljko is on record claiming he'll knock a true $8 chance into $6.

No retail Tote punter has any chance of being a long-term winner.

Thanks to Kickbacks.

JWesleyHarding · « 2018-May-21, 06:02 PM **Reply #19** »

What's the minimum annual amount one would need to turnover to attract the minimum rebate?

And what would that percentage be?

Bubbasmith · « 2018-May-21, 06:06 PM **Reply #20** »

JWH, give the marketing department at Tabcorp a call , if you find out , let us all know.

JayDee · « 2018-May-21, 06:52 PM **Reply #21** »

Can’t guarantee this is right but heard the TAB required $20m turnover before offering rebates. This offer was directed at corporates and alike to add liquidity into the parimutuel pool. The rebates increased as the turnover guarantee from whoever was increased. I’ve been involved in the Commission ‘world’ for years but the earn on that is long gone. TABs were offering from 2% to 8% apparently.

Dave · « 2018-May-21, 11:08 PM **Reply #22** »

Easy for punters to avoid being ripped off by the TAB, just so what I do.........never bet with them, the only way they will learn, if you keep walking up to the slaughter you can't blame the guy who hits between the eyes with a hammer, can you?
The TAB has no morals, they treat punters like fools.........the question is are punters Fools?.....hard to argue the TAB is wrong on that count when all the evidence says they are correct

jfc · « 2018-May-22, 08:30 AM **Reply #23** »

Quote from: Antitab# on 2018-May-21, 07:57 AM

You can tell from the name I post under that I am no fan of Tabcorp but paying rebates makes sense to me from their point of view.

It makes no sense whatsoever to any rational honest person.

I've already pointed out the way rebates work is unfair and oppressive to retail punters, hence illegal. Hence it makes no sense for Tabcorp to flagrantly facilitate law breaking.

Also note that very few of the punter victims read the AFR, so (barring McIlwain) Kate's piece is the first time Kickbacks have reached the mainstream press. Despite 10 years of malpractice.

How is it that not a single racing writer aver publicly raised the issue!

That look kosher to anyone!

Obviously Tabcorp and its co-conspirators are very afraid of the possible punter backlash, and have been very influential in stopping this hitting their media.

If it made any sense at all then surely someone would have written about how sensible it is.

And I still haven't started about how insane the economics for Tabcorp are.

Bubbasmith · « 2018-May-22, 05:08 PM **Reply #24** »

Quote from: jfc on 2018-May-22, 08:30 AM

It makes no sense whatsoever to any rational honest person.

I've already pointed out the way rebates work is unfair and oppressive to retail punters, hence illegal. Hence it makes no sense for Tabcorp to flagrantly facilitate law breaking.

Also note that very few of the punter victims read the AFR, so (barring McIlwain) Kate's piece is the first time Kickbacks have reached the mainstream press. Despite 10 years of malpractice.

How is it that not a single racing writer aver publicly raised the issue!

That look kosher to anyone!

Obviously Tabcorp and its co-conspirators are very afraid of the possible punter backlash, and have been very influential in stopping this hitting their media.

If it made any sense at all then surely someone would have written about how sensible it is.

And I still haven't started about how insane the economics for Tabcorp are.

Why would they when at all the major racing carnivals they enjoy the hospitality of the tote companies by way of canapes washed down with premium beer or even better French Champagne. Kickbacks have little relevance to racing journalists because they are noted non winners on the punt and they would assume, so are all other punters, and even if kickbacks were discontinued most punters will still lose.
In other words let sleeping dogs alone !!!!!