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Author Topic: Moody Kavanagh OBrien all have the Cobalt Blues.  (Read 354340 times)

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Offline arthur

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« 2018-Mar-01, 05:12 PM Reply #2375 »
Courts in all jurisdictions seem prepared to accept defenses / excuses that a schoolteacher wouldn't accept from a 13 year old kid . .

The greatest deterrent to criminal activity is thinking that you probably won't get away with it . .

That deterrent has virtually disappeared in all areas of our life . .


The 'summary justice' dispensed by those old 'tough but fair' stewards, may not have been perfect, but was probably better than what we have now

Offline nemisis

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« 2018-Mar-01, 07:17 PM Reply #2376 »
I was trying to see some reference in the judgement that referred to the $1000.00 vitamin injections but couldn't see anything.

Would anybody pay that much for an injection and not want to know what made it so expensive?

The old term "cheats never prosper" lost all it's meaning long ago.

Offline gunbower

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« 2018-Mar-01, 07:27 PM Reply #2377 »
Spot on Nemisis. It is a ----load of vitamins.

Offline Arsenal

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« 2018-May-07, 09:23 AM Reply #2378 »
Bruce Clarke on Press Room today reported VCAT decision on costs of the Cobalt case was handed down "quietly" on Friday evening ...all parties to bear their own costs ..that'll be a significant cost to the plaintiffs O'Brien Kavanagh as the daily costs charged by VCAT are their responsibility plus whatever legal fees their lawyers charge....Bruce also said a civil case claiming damages to the trainers' reputations is still alive.

Giddy Up :beer:

Offline fours

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« 2018-May-07, 01:29 PM Reply #2379 »
Arsenal,

Are the trainers suing the judge for declaring they are merely naive foolish victims of the evil vet and have not got a clue what they are doing nor about the proper cost of vitamins?

Fours

Offline Arsenal

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« 2018-May-07, 05:42 PM Reply #2380 »
Arsenal,

Are the trainers suing the judge for declaring they are merely naive foolish victims of the evil vet and have not got a clue what they are doing nor about the proper cost of vitamins?

Fours

Fours I only know that they're said to be taking a civil case the prospects of success IMO would be long odds......write your own ticket.


AR.197. No person shall be entitled to make any claim for damages by reason or in consequence of
the imposition, annulment, removal, mitigation, or remission of any penalty imposed or purporting to
be imposed under the Rules. [amended 1.9.09]



Giddy Up :beer:
« Last Edit: 2018-May-07, 06:57 PM by Arsenal »

Offline Arsenal

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« 2018-Jun-11, 07:58 PM Reply #2381 »
VCAT decision on Kavanagh & O'Brien's claim against RV for limited costs strongly resisted by RV extensive reasons for decision make interesting reading it pays not to jump to conclusions in the end Garde P decided it was fair for both sides to bear their own costs.......in passing he made the comment that nothing in his comments should be taken to refer to the trainers civil action against Dr Brennan and the Flemington Vet Clinic.......any thoughts that they might be suing RV were well astray.

http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/vic/VCAT/2018/674.html?context=1;query=%22review%20and%20regulation%20list%22;mask_path=au/cases/vic/VCAT

Conclusion

Having regard to all of the considerations urged by the parties in their written submissions, and after having assessed the considerations listed in s 109(3)(a)–(e), I am not satisfied for the purposes of s 109(3) that it is fair to make any order for costs.

While the proceeding was hard fought, there was nothing done by RVL in the conduct of the proceeding that would merit an award of costs against it.

There is no doubt that the horses concerned raced following administration of a prohibited substance. It is the duty of the stewards and RVL to do all that they can to bring those responsible to justice, and to bring proceedings before the RAD Board and this Tribunal.

In my view, it is in the interests of justice in the circumstances of this case that the ordinary rule of the Tribunal, namely that parties bear their own costs should prevail.

Nothing I say is intended to affect any civil claims that the applicants may have against Dr Brennan or the Flemington Equine Clinic.

I decline to make any order under s 109(2) that any party pay all or a specified part of the costs of the other party in those proceedings. The result is that the parties will bear their own costs in each proceeding. The Tribunal will make orders in each proceeding accordingly.

Giddy Up :beer:

Offline deepthroat

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« 2018-Jul-14, 10:26 AM Reply #2382 »
Monday it begins again in Victoria for the Hopes- a VCAT hearing under Judge Garde, to be heard in the Supreme Court (where he now sits)...
VERY interesting retest results coming through from around the country... and a lot of world class experts to refute racing’s narrative...
Sadly it’s doubtful any racing media will be there... their masters will not allow them to report on the latest developments and inevitable ‘about face’...
 :whistle:

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Jul-14, 07:22 PM Reply #2383 »
Monday it begins again in Victoria for the Hopes- a VCAT hearing under Judge Garde, to be heard in the Supreme Court (where he now sits)...
VERY interesting retest results coming through from around the country... and a lot of world class experts to refute racing’s narrative...
Sadly it’s doubtful any racing media will be there... their masters will not allow them to report on the latest developments and inevitable ‘about face’...
 :whistle:

What do you mean that "a lot of world class experts to refute racing’s narrative" in relation to cobalt?

Are you telling me that all those social media experts who were commenting on Cobalt, and have no chemistry knowledge, might have been actually parroting someone else's mistakes?

Go on get out of here deepthroat. How dare you question the media's narrative on Cobalt. I know the media (social and mainstream) is often wrong or likes to overstate things that are not extreme to make them extreme without any informed opinion backing them up.

And that politicians now accept this media narrative as the basis of policy development?

But it could never happen, could it?

Offline Arsenal

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« 2018-Jul-16, 05:51 PM Reply #2384 »
Hopes plead guilty to lesser cobalt charge
Hopes plead guilty to lesser cobalt charge Lee Hope (above) and his son Shannon were back at VCAT on Monday. Photo: Darryl Sherer
Article Author
AAP

16 July 2018
2 Comments
Father and son training partners Lee and Shannon Hope have pleaded guilty to a lesser charge of administering cobalt, arguing it was inadvertent.

The Victorian trainers blame their feeding and supplementation regime for three of their racehorses returning elevated cobalt levels in 2014.

The Hopes deny administering cobalt to affect the horses' performances in races, a more serious charge still being pursued by Racing Victoria.

The trainers pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of administering a prohibited substance as their appeal over their cobalt bans began on Monday.

Defence barrister Rahmin de Kretser said the defence case was there was an inadvertent administration of the substance that led to the cobalt threshold being exceeded.

"There was no intent to exceed that threshold or alter the performance of a horse in a race," he told the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal.

Shannon Hope was responsible for the feeding and supplementation regime the training partnership argue led to Windy Citi Bear, Best Suggestion and Choose recording elevated cobalt levels in 2014.

Lee Hope said he did not see the need to change anything when the cobalt threshold was introduced in April 2014.

"I didn't do anything because I thought the cobalt was in a bottle with the word on it and we weren't using it," he told the hearing.

Hope said he and his son did not alter the feed and supplements program after being told about the cobalt positives, but later made changes under a new vet.

"We felt we haven't done anything wrong, why change anything. So we didn't change anything."

Hope maintained the horses were only given what was disclosed to stewards.

At one point during questioning by RV's barrister Jeff Gleeson QC, Hope said: "You think that I was telling lies then?"

Gleeson: "I'm saying you're telling lies now - you had a better understanding of the cobalt rule than you're saying."

Hope: "No."

Hope denied being aware of the administration of a substance containing cobalt in addition to what was disclosed.

He also denied the administration of supplements, by or on his behalf, was done to make the three horses run faster for longer.

Lee and Shannon Hope are appealing their respective three and five-year disqualifications for administering cobalt to affect the three horses' performances.

Shannon Hope is expected to give evidence on Monday afternoon.ENDS

Obviously a better outcome for them if their "inadvertant" arguments are accepted by the tribunal .......but just as obvious Jeff Gleeson QC and RV aren't buying it and are pressing the serious charges.


Giddy Up :beer:

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-Jul-16, 07:58 PM Reply #2385 »


.......the focus on cobalt was new .......... 'no one' knew if it affected performance ......... the idea that respected trainers would deliberately dope a horse flies in the face of the certainty that any irregularity would be found.


Offline Arsenal

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« 2018-Jul-17, 04:40 PM Reply #2386 »
Hopes seek VCAT win
 
racing.com Staff@Racing
3:41pm

The appeal of father-and-son training team Lee and Shannon Hope against lengthy disqualifications for cobalt has begun, with the pair seeking a Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal decision similar to the one that exonerated fellow trainers Danny O'Brien and Mark Kavanagh.

The Hopes have pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of administering a prohibited substance but claim the administrations were inadvertent and the detection of cobalt was due to their feeding and supplementation regime.

Shannon Hope has a five-year ban and his father three years following the Racing Appeals and Disciplinary Board decision in 2015.

Their appeal to VCAT has been 'parked' awaiting the result of O'Brien and Kavanagh's appeals last year to the Court Of Appeal, which found they did not knowingly administer the cobalt, paving the way for VCAT to quash their sanctions.

The Hopes' appeal to VCAT, which is being heard at the Supreme Court, is expected to run into next week.ENDS


==========
Trainer admits lying but denies cheating
Yesterday at 6:05pm by AAP
 Shannon Hope was responsible for feeding and supplementationImage: Getty
Trainer Shannon Hope admits he lied during his cobalt case but denies cheating by giving horses supplements on race days to enhance their performances.

Hope and his father Lee have pleaded guilty to a lesser charge of administering a prohibited substance as they fight their cobalt disqualifications, blaming their feeding and supplementation regime for an inadvertent administration.

Hope admitted he lied to the racing tribunal that banned him for five years and his father for three years for intentionally administering cobalt to affect the performances of three horses in 2014 races.

He told the Racing Appeals and Disciplinary Board that after Victoria introduced a cobalt threshold in April 2014, he checked the labels on products the trainers used.

The 42-year-old on Monday admitted he never checked the products.

Hope said he thought saying he had checked would help after "harsh" questioning of his father at the 2015 hearing.

"It was stupid. I've regretted it ever since," he told the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal.

Racing Victoria barrister Jeff Gleeson QC, who had accused Hope of making things up at the time, suggested the trainer was still lying.

"You're trapped in this lie and you're troubled by the fact that you're potentially bringing your father down with it," Gleeson said.

Hope replied: "No sir."

Gleeson also said: "You didn't think it was such a big cheat to inject commercial supplements on race day. You knew it was wrong but you thought you'd get away with it and you'd do it anyway."

Hope: "No, that's not true."

VCAT heard RV analysis showed only 21 of 1650 race day urine samples over April 2014 to May 2015 returned cobalt levels over 100 micrograms per litre, which was less than the 200 microgram threshold originally imposed.

Ten of those 21 horses were trained by the Hopes, Gleeson said.

RV maintains the trainers are guilty of the more serious charge of administering cobalt to affect a horse's race performance, contending it was to make the horses run faster for longer.

The Hopes' barrister Rahmin de Kretser said the defence case was there was an inadvertent administration that led to the cobalt threshold being exceeded.


Shannon Hope was responsible for the feeding, supplementation and medication regime the defence argued led to Windy Citi Bear, Best Suggestion and Choose's elevated cobalt levels.

The Hopes denied the horses were given supplements and medication in addition to the treatment and feeding regime they disclosed to stewards.

Lee Hope said he did not see the need to change anything when the cobalt threshold was introduced.

"I didn't do anything because I thought the cobalt was in a bottle with the word on it and we weren't using it," he said.

He said they did not alter the feed and supplements program after being told about the cobalt positives as they felt they had done nothing wrong, but later made changes under a new vet.

VCAT heard the Hopes otherwise had unblemished records as licensed persons in racing - Lee over more than 50 years and his son for 28 years.ENDS

Credibility being questioned isn't helpful to their claims of inadvertent administration IMO.

Giddy Up :beer:



Offline Arsenal

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« 2018-Jul-31, 04:40 PM Reply #2387 »
VCAT reserves Hopes' cobalt decision
Kate Watts@katewatts_   30 July, 2018

The long-running cobalt case involving trainers Lee and Shannon Hope is still without a resolution, after final submissions were made to the Victorian Civil Administrative Tribunal on Monday.

Justice Greg Garde said he would reserve his decision after hearing submissions from legal representatives of both Racing Victoria and the Hopes. The RAD Board had previously disqualified Shannon Hope for five years and his father Lee for three years.

The Hopes had pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of administering a prohibited substance but claimed the administrations were inadvertent and the detection of cobalt was due to their feeding and supplementation regime. The Hopes' defence claimed that Lee hadn't been aware that their horses were receiving these supplements.

In his final submission on Monday though, Racing Victoria's barrister, Jeff Gleeson, QC, rejected that claim, stating RV had found that Lee along with Shannon also knew their horses were given supplements containing cobalt on racedays with the bid to enhance their horse's abilities.

Racing Victoria said it found that Lee Hope was "a man who was intimately involved with the horses" saying that they had determined that "there was no meaningful difference in the role the two of them played in administrating substances" to their horses.

The representative for Racing Victoria went on to say that if it is found that there was raceday treatment then "these two co-trainers both knew and intended to enhance the performances of their horses in that way".

Justice Garde pushed the defence to clarify if in fact Lee had been aware.

"A working relationship over years, a family relationship, either they both knew what was going on or Shannon was not informing or holding back information from Lee," said Justice Garde.

"The alternative hypothesis that Shannon was covertly operating and not telling Lee," he added

The Hopes' barrister Rahmin de Kretser strongly denied that Lee was aware of the supplement being administered, stating that "there is no evidence that Lee was ever aware of the stable's supplement regime."

Instead the defence once again pushed the point that the Hopes were not responsible for the elevated levels of cobalt found in three of their horses, stating when the tests were taken in 2014 their knowledge, and most other trainers' knowledge on cobalt was minimal and they instead thought they were administrating a therapeutic supplement to their horses.

"The warnings about products that contain cobalt and (the bioaccumulation with) vitamin B12 were not given to trainers when this rule was brought in," said de Kretser.

"Challenges have been put to Shannon and Lee about what they knew about cobalt, it's clear they didn't know much at all," proclaimed the defence.

"Compare that to what the leading vet and leading steward knew about cobalt at the time.

"After these samples have been tested, opinions are now being re-set, people are talking about this situation as a game changer," he added.

The Hopes' barrister went on to reject the claim that the supplement process had been a difficult one and therefore couldn't be carried out by someone so uninformed.

"It wasn't a complicated or sophisticated process," he said

"It was not a sophisticated process, it was a simple task of taking blood from the horse, putting it in a machine that did all the work, putting it in a freezer and then back in the horse.”

"In this case the Hopes had no knowledge of what was being administered would cause a breach of the threshold," added de Kretser.

"They did not administer any prohibited substance with the intent to affect the behaviour of the three horses," he said.

"The Hopes had no reason to cheat or affect the performance of these horses and they simply did not engage in that activity.

"Nothing supports the notion that they had any incentive to enhance these three horses.

"It was none of these horses' grand final, there was no evidence of unusual betting activity surrounding these horses," stated the defence.

Justice Garde stated he will reserve publishing his decision on the appeal for due course.

Giddy Up :beer:


Offline deepthroat

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« 2018-Aug-02, 10:46 AM Reply #2388 »
I have doubts that any ‘journalist’ from Racing.com was even in the courtroom...
There again was omission of any reference to vitamin B12 levels in retested samples, which was what was described as the ‘game changer’ as authorities have continually denied Vitamin B12 could significantly  contribute to any cobalt urine sample.  B12 being non performance enhancing although there’s no evidence cobalt is either.
Also the statement about taking blood from the horse was in reference to PRP treatment which has absolutely nothing to do with the charges issued by RV but is implied in that uninformed article
Racing authorities can try all they like to suppress the retests but they’re going to come sooner or later

Offline tontonan

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« 2018-Aug-02, 04:54 PM Reply #2389 »
Thanks to Arsenal for keeping us informed and Deepthroat for clarifying the situation. 

I was at a loss to understand why blood would be taken from the horse, frozen and reinjected into the horse for the sake of a commercial vitamin and mineral supplement (or even a dose of cobalt chloride)  but PRP (Platelet-rich Plasma) therapy explains it.  I am not sure what relevance it has to the administration of cobalt or why it was being raised at the appeal though.

Anybody who can press a syringe can administer a commercial supplement.  It's not rocket science and you don't need a centrifuge. 

Gleeson is no more convincing in this case than we was representing the Catholic Church at the Royal Commission.  I gather that does not affect his fee.

Offline nemisis

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« 2018-Aug-02, 07:45 PM Reply #2390 »
It's impossible for me to accept that for racehorses to be successful they must have their blood removed, boosted, frozen and then re-injected.

You only had to read what poor Midsummer Sun had to go through with his "vitamin Injections" before eventually dropping dead.

Sam Kavanagh's guilt has never really been in question.

I didn't mind the Hope trained Best Suggestion as a horse and without knowing the reason he is dead as well.

Sad caper horse racing when trainers feel they need to being doing this to compete.

Offline tontonan

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« 2018-Aug-02, 09:37 PM Reply #2391 »
Nemisis,

You are jerking your knee without understanding the PRP procedure. 

1. PRP was cleared by World Anti Doping Agency in January 2011 after determining there was not any evidence to suggest that there was any performance advantage in such therapy.

2. It is therapy.  It encourages the horses body to heal itself.  It is specifically used for horses attempting to overcome serious injuries such as tendons and ligaments, bone fractures, spurs and cysts.

3. Nothing is added to the blood.  The centrifuge separates the PRP aliquot from platelet poor plasma and red blood cells.  Platelet poor plasma may be removed before the blood is returned to the horse but nothing foreign is added.

4. The Hopes case has nothing to do with Sam Kavanagh and Tom Brennan's bottles labelled 'vitamin complex'.  They have to do with lee and Shannon Hope and commercially available and registered vitamin and mineral supplements that could be found in the vast majority of racing stables. 

What is at issue is whether there has been a bio-accumulation of cobalt from the use of these supplements particularly in conjunction with vitamin B-12 (both contain cobalt and both are added to popular Vitamin and Mineral supplements such as VAM or Hemo-15 by the manufacturer) or whether the level of cobalt in the swab were due to the race day treatment of horses with those commercially available and registered vitamin and mineral supplements.

5. Best Suggestion is dead. We can agree on that but to suggest it is dead because of the use of supplements is wild speculation that you cannot possibly justify.

'Sad caper horse racing when trainers feel they need to being doing this to compete.'

'This' ?  What is 'this' to which you refer ?  PRP therapy ? Vitamin and Mineral supplements ? What Sam Kavanagh and Tom Brennan did ?   Or do you just throw it all into a pot, mix it with ignorance, unsubstantiated innuendo and wild speculation... and stir ?


Offline nemisis

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« 2018-Aug-02, 10:23 PM Reply #2392 »
While I certainly don't profess to be any chemist my time in the greyhound world did expose me to a bit.....I'll show you my vet bills.

I'm suggesting that playing around with the blood is best left to absolute experts and that is was the "this" is.

Watching needles being plunged into compliant animals continuously bothered me with greyhounds and finding horses seem to cop the same treatment is just as bothersome.

I said I didn't know how Best Suggestion died and if you find out please let me know.

Offline deepthroat

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« 2018-Aug-03, 03:21 AM Reply #2393 »
Best Suggestion had had recurrent colic- he died of intestinal torsion (which turned his bowel ischemic) and resulted in his death.
Your insinuations surrounding his death Nemisid are based on nothing but conjecture and knowledge surrounding PRP treatment is lacking- what do you think is better for healing a horses injury or for the horse itself??  it’s own blood or  use of medication?
It was recommended, commenced and guided by their vet at the time (back in 2014).
 PRP is used widely for muscular tears, joint issues it’s even used for gynaecological treatments in females as it limits scar tissue  formation and promotes healing - nothing is added and the blood is not ‘boosted’ as you claim

Offline nemisis

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« 2018-Aug-03, 11:05 AM Reply #2394 »
Thanks for letting me know about Best Suggestion......would have been very painful.

You are correct about my knowledge of PRP as I said I'm no chemist.

I will say this though, having to deal with an animal who had his blood tampered with was an absolute expensive nightmare for a novice trainer like myself not to mention the considerable suffering of the animal.

What I found was that  the advice I got from various vets was generally conflicting to the point of confusion but you have to put your trust somewhere.

Now if you are asking me to accept that healthy active horses on their way to the racetrack need this plasma treatment ......well I'll never buy that.

If a horse has muscle tears or joint problems maybe it would a better option letting mother nature do her thing and it's a lot cheaper although i would accept this treatment would have it's place in dealing with such injuries.




Offline wily ole dog

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« 2018-Aug-03, 05:55 PM Reply #2395 »
I agree with Tonto and DT but also when nemisis says

“,Now if you are asking me to accept that healthy active horses on their way to the racetrack need this plasma treatment ......well I'll never buy that.”


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