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Offline stiffarm

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O.P. « 2018-Jun-01, 09:03 PM »
Hi guys,

Thought I would start a thread on the now popular mounting yard mail and the people behind them.

Which analyst/s do you like? Any good ones that aren't currently providing public services? Would love to know if there's more out there.

Offline Dave

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« 2018-Jun-01, 10:55 PM Reply #1 »
My take on Mounting yard mail is that it is a huge advantage....if it comes from some one who actually knows what they are talking about, someone you can trust............and they were given free reign to give their real opinion without fear or favour.....unfortunately neither of the above scenarios actually happens
Some Drawbacks to listening to MYM as I see it,

1. When someone applies for the job no one who is in charge of hiring has any idea of what the qualifications are?? So how can they get the best person for the job if they don't know what they are looking for?..
2, Again in point one the assumption is they are looking for someone who is a good judge of a thoroughbred....which they ain't.....they are really in the entertainment industry, not the punting industry.....being photogenic is more important than horse skills
3, My opinion is they know 99% of punters have no idea so anyone who is attractive to the Camera will be able to do the job.....since the vast majority of punters are Men...........hence they employ attractive women to do the job.....coincidence?? I don't think so
4 then there are people like Glen Pollett....I have no doubt he has some talent....but he really doesn't have any hands on experience with racehorses....he has very little idea of how to judge a fit horse.........He is more of a horse behaviourist, than a fitness judge....which means he would be better as a judge of what to lay rather than what to back.....he discounts the horses that behave badly.....this is important but doesn't always point you to a winner..........and I don't think he tells you what can't win....he just gives you his selections on what he is going to back.........mostly on form study......you can do that
5, when I say a fit horse.......99% of horses at the races are 85/95% fit so when a horse walks into the enclosure that is as fat as a pig they can tell the difference between it and and a horse that is 90% fit.....what they can't tell is when a horse is peaked ie, 100% fit....what I would term a "standout" I am yet to see any of them that can judge that last 5% and that 5% is worth a lot more than just the 5% in reality
6, A lot of trainers can't "peak" their horses, I remember when Bart was training 20 or more years ago(it's about that long since I went to the races, too many drunks now)....his horses were always around 90% fit.(horses can win 90% fit, cos they are on an even playing field).......then one day you would be at the races and a Bart horse would walk in and was an absolute standout......100% you knew this was the target........they always won, you could see why he was a genius, Punters assume that a horse improves in fitness with each run back from a spell, not always true, Bart's horses would resume 90% fit, next run 90% fit, Next run 90% fit, Next run 90% fit,,,,and so on until it's target race........then the group one and a Bart horse is 100% fit.......that is an art. most trainers if they try to get a horse to peak they go over the top and that is the end of that prep and they don't get a result....so I don't think they even try
7, the vast majority of races are won by horses in the 85/95% fitness range......you don't need to be 100% unless there is another in the race that is 100% even then Class is a huge factor......
8. Being a good judge of "Type" is also important especially in the early 2 year old races..........which I am yet to see in any of them

I could  go on but that is enough to digest for now, hope it helps

Dave
 

Offline LeRoi

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« 2018-Jun-02, 09:15 AM Reply #2 »
Agree if you can get a mounting yard gun it is a huge advantage.

Believe ZR has people at each track, and imagine the same folks haven't been doing it forever. May mean there are some former ZR people doing it for themselves now? Anyone who is on-track would help more in this thread.

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2018-Jun-02, 09:25 AM Reply #3 »
One of our former? forumites could do all this stuff from the TV.

Where's WOT?


Offline Wenona

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« 2018-Jun-02, 03:29 PM Reply #4 »
The only TV one that I would listen to is Francesca.  Unfortunately we only see her during the Melbourne Carnival.

I remember a couple of years back she potted a favourite and said she really looked over the top - ran accordingly.

As we know most of them just nominate the favourite.

Offline tontonan

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« 2018-Jun-02, 05:22 PM Reply #5 »
Jane Ivyl.   First class.    :noteworthy:


Offline arthur

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« 2018-Jun-03, 08:02 AM Reply #6 »
Believe ZR has people at each track, and imagine the same folks haven't been doing it forever.

12 months or so ago there was an ex-NRL player doing the rounds of North Qld TAB meetings

Whether he was with Z . . ?? . . but he told the local bookies that he wouldn't be betting with them as he only dealt with the corps

Hasn't been seen for a while

Offline Dave

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« 2018-Jun-03, 01:32 PM Reply #7 »
The other point to remember when listening to MYM on the box(TV), they are under pressure to one, find winners occasionally, and two......to always be politically correct......meaning never to be critical of trainers.....they mostly do the mail from studying the form..........that means they find what they are looking for, when they do the form they can't help being biased when looking at the horses if they already have an opinion, unless it is really obvious...i.e. the horse walks in limping......and that is assuming they are "experts" in the first place

If I was in charge at Sky and was looking to hire an expert for MYM I would be looking for a trainer, not an ex jockey...someone who understands how to get a horse fit and knows when it is fit.....not an ex Jockey or some one that is a "never was" anything............I am sure there are many trainers that would take the job........even if you had a local trainer at each track....or someone like Peter Moody, he calls a spade a spade so maybe he wouldn't last long

MYM is much more important at provincial and Bush racing than it is in the city.......city trainers use Vets like they are eating Tic Tacs........every day, they run tests on everything, they have mostly owners who can afford it, bush trainers don't have that luxury, so they need to know by observation if something isn't right........a lot are not that good....but some are....good MYM can be imperative at these meetings....bad MYM is worse than no MYM
Bart would send samples of every batch of new feed that was delivered to his stables to be analysed before using it....just to make sure of the quality.....how many trainers are that meticulous.....or could afford to be that meticulous?
There is so much that punters don't know or don't understand........I think MYM is just clutching at straws because you doubt your own strengths.......better to work at what you are good at.....you are the only person you can trust......or don't you think so?

Offline LeRoi

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« 2018-Jun-04, 09:17 PM Reply #8 »
Agree with all that Dave, but imagine not too many pay attention to what the TV mounting yard people say (besides Jenny Chapman at HKJC).

Am personally more interested to know if there is anyone who attend the track specifically for a mounting yard edge, which would be significant in this off track betting era.

And would imagine some of them may do it for themselves, or for other people privately.




Sent from my iPhone using Racehorse Talk

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-Jun-04, 10:06 PM Reply #9 »

Marketing not analysis

The following is 'gender specific' and politically incorrect.

It is only irritating to have some breathless little petal making pronouncements from the 'mounting yard' about which horses 'presented well'.

There are occasional (well informed?) 'hits' but not usually.

Most punters would never select these 'petals' to be their preferred assessors.

............... one can only presume that their selection is about building the appeal of racing to women.

Women with an attachment to racing do not need to see or hear such patronizing nonsense.



Offline Dave

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« 2018-Jun-05, 01:31 AM Reply #10 »
I do not and never have bet in Hong Kong so I do not know who Jenny Chapman is...........or what her back ground is but I suspect she is more a form analyst and self taught MYM ďexpertĒ..........for mine if they havenít been a trainer with proven knowledge of how to get a horse fit, and prove they know when a horse is peaked........not just 90% fit.......I have my doubts about them...........I think MYM is pretty much like beauty, itís in the eye of the beholder............if it works for you, use it..........I would never pay anyone for it........or take the word of someone who is self taught.......but that is just me

There are no short cuts that make winning easy.........anyone that was good at it doesnít need a job......and would never sell the key to the mint.......but again I am always cynical and sceptical........I just donít trust anyone without irrefutable proof

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2018-Jun-05, 07:31 AM Reply #11 »
Marketing not analysis

The following is 'gender specific' and politically incorrect.

It is only irritating to have some breathless little petal making pronouncements from the 'mounting yard' about which horses 'presented well'.

There are occasional (well informed?) 'hits' but not usually.

Most punters would never select these 'petals' to be their preferred assessors.

............... one can only presume that their selection is about building the appeal of racing to women.

Women with an attachment to racing do not need to see or hear such patronizing nonsense.


what a disgusting arrogant grub you are

Some one like Lizzy Jelfs who worked with David Hayes for over a decade has no idea?

You come on here and spew your rubbish and then sit in judgement of the likes of Jelfs, Buckley, Searcy and Bernie Cooper  :lol:   :lol:   :lol:

You an idiot Mair
They have more talent and clue than you ever will have
« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-05, 07:50 AM by wily ole dog »

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2018-Jun-05, 03:35 PM Reply #12 »
I do not and never have bet in Hong Kong so I do not know who Jenny Chapman is...........or what her back ground is but I suspect she is more a form analyst and self taught MYM ďexpertĒ..........for mine if they havenít been a trainer with proven knowledge of how to get a horse fit, and prove they know when a horse is peaked........not just 90% fit.......I have my doubts about them...........I think MYM is pretty much like beauty, itís in the eye of the beholder............if it works for you, use it..........I would never pay anyone for it........or take the word of someone who is self taught.......but that is just me

There are no short cuts that make winning easy.........anyone that was good at it doesnít need a job......and would never sell the key to the mint.......but again I am always cynical and sceptical........I just donít trust anyone without irrefutable proof

Jenny Chapman is the daughter of R G ( Kelly ) Chapman who trained at Caulfield fpr many years, he trained the one-time Sandown 1000 metres record holder Cendrillon. Jenny  is married to David Price, who with Jenny set up Price Bloodstock.
Established in 1995, Price Bloodstock continues to be a leading source for Hong Kong owners looking for that elusive winning photo. A one of a kind company, Price Bloodstock annually purchases a substantial number of yearlings through the Australasian yearling sales. Inconjuction with buyers John Foote, Robert Smerdon and Patrick Payne, these horses are broken in and given plenty of opportunity to develop and mature, before being offered to Hong Kong owners.

Offline Dave

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« 2018-Jun-05, 06:49 PM Reply #13 »
Bubba with that background it is no wonder she is well respected as a M/Y judge, I remember Her Dad as a trainer and I  especially remember Cendrillon........a contemporary of Storm Queen, Citius etc, she was very good
In saying that Anthony is no BART and neither is James............she is the daughter of a good trainer and the wife of a Bloodstock agent...........it doesnít Automatically follow she has the same ability.........
And being a Bloodstock Agent is a far cry from judging fitness in a racehorse.........I would sooner have the original (her dad)than the copy if I was going to put my own on...........and as I said, I never punt outside of Australia anyway...........it is interesting nonetheless to find out who she is, thanks for that

Offline LeRoi

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« 2018-Jun-14, 01:36 PM Reply #14 »
Found this old job post from Data Processors for an analyst:

--

Description
Mounting Yard Analyst South Australia

Do you have an interest in horse racing & observing horses in the Mounting Yard?

This is a great opportunity to join Data Processors Pty Ltd and turn it into a career.

The primary function of the role is to analyse horses in the Mounting Yard.

The successful applicant must demonstrate the following skills:

Ensure all data is entered correctly and accurately
Be able to follow company procedures
Work unsupervised
Own vehicle is essential as the role involves travelling to tracks such as Morphettville, Gawler, Balaklava and Murray Bridge.

Working on Weekends and Public Holidays will be required.

Previous experience is not essential but some racing knowledge is an advantage.

To apply, please email jobs@dataprocessors.com.au quoting reference .  All applications will be short-listed within 72 hours of the application date.

Offline kicker

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« 2018-Jun-15, 10:15 AM Reply #15 »
Interesting topic this as I've always wondered how these "experts" come up with their best in the yard, best on looks or whatever.

Like most, I can see if a horse is fat or has a winter coat but as Dave mentions, most of the horses in a race are close to peak fitness and to my eye they all look magnificent. Sure you can tell if one is significantly musclier than the others but that is pretty rare. I was once told to look for a defining line between the muscles of a horses rump but they nearly all have that so that makes it hard to differentiate.

So help me out here. Exactly what makes one horse "the pick of the yard"?

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2018-Jun-15, 10:54 AM Reply #16 »
Okay!

Well let's start he-

Have you ever been to a strip club......................................?

Offline kicker

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« 2018-Jun-15, 12:55 PM Reply #17 »
Ok, I'll bite...yes

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2018-Jun-15, 02:50 PM Reply #18 »
I'm referring to your

 "So help me out here. Exactly what makes one horse "the pick of the yard"?"

They all might be lovely but to an experienced eye one is better presented than the others, Sometimes an iindefinable difference.
« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-15, 05:00 PM by JWesleyHarding »

Offline romankoz

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« 2018-Jun-15, 04:36 PM Reply #19 »
I would not know the difference physically between almost fit horses and those that are 100% but Geoffrey Hutson does. Google his name and buy his book. It is a work of art. I know only too well because I edited the book but that's another story. G is a master at mounting yard observations.

Offline Arsenal

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« 2018-Jun-15, 08:48 PM Reply #20 »
Mounting yard analysts have limited time generally to show the runners for more than a second or two but pictures are a help to the viewers watching the TV often I'll see a horse that to me looks outstanding but  it may not the analyst's pick of the yard.....that doesn't put me off if its form is ok if I feel like a bet if the price is right .......I think there's nothing better than being on course looking at the horses in the tie up stalls through the day and watching closely as they are led in and parade....... when I was a regular racegoer I spent most of my time looking at the horses and assessing their chances on appearance...... picked lots of long priced winners too......I remember seeing General Nedyim having his first start as a 2yo at Eagle Farm when he walked in he was a standout yet  was a 12 to one chance and bolted in..... the stable P G Moody mustn't have thought very highly of him that day.... but he turned out a champion.

Postcript...I found this reference to experts and urgers in the archives of JustRacing written by my mate Phil Purser you might find it entertaining.

http://www.arthritis.com.au/index.php?news_page=101&artid=3643&catid=52

Giddy Up :beer: 
« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-15, 09:06 PM by Arsenal »

Offline Dave

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« 2018-Jun-15, 09:45 PM Reply #21 »
I find it amusing just listening to Mounting yard Analysts........he has a shiny coat etc.....I am yet to hear anyone say anything definitive that would make me think they had a clue what they are talking about...........very few horses are ever absolutely peaked i.e. 100%....the vast majority of horses would be no more than 90/95% and I don't really like even putting a figure on it......it is like saying almost pregnant.......you are either Pregnant or not pregnant........either a horse is peaked or it isn't....whether it is 5% or 10% short doesn't make a lot of difference
So even if a horse walked in right at their peak 100% peaked none of these MYM experts would see it.....cos they don't see many of them....but that last 5% can make a gulf of difference
Look up Abebe Bikila he was a famous Marathon Runner.....he was supremely fit(an assumption on my part as I have no idea how to judge human fitness).....then you have Usain Bolt....also a very fit athlete......but they look nothing alike, fitness wise,do they? there are different kinds of fitness, depending on the task ahead..........Judging horses can be similar...........some are fit enough if the race develops into a sprint home.....while others need it a solidly run race......and will get out sprinted in slow run race.........

Thinking you can look at them on the TV and ascertain fitness levels is silly, it can be a cloudy overcast day, almost dark and they can adjust the camera to make it seem like a bright summers day........
They also look at all the horses from different angles which can be misleading trying to pick fitness levels if you don't see every horse from the same angle

MYM "experts" are really looking at behaviour, not fitness.....and you don't need to be that much of an expert to do that i.e. if a horse is a lather of sweat you would avoid it like the plague if it was a cold day.....but you need to discern why it is sweating........is it because of stress? is it just a free sweater?...is it a really hot humid day?....or was it just hosed down?
Is it Playing up in the mounting yard etc? there are a myriad of things......all relative to it's chances but none of them related to actual fitness.........and in the majority of races all the horses behave so there is no lead given there.....in early 2 year old races it is more about type and education
I feel MYM experts do the form first, form an opinion on who they think will win.....then go to the races and look for affirmation......like a mother whose baby is in a baby contest.....of course they think it is the most beautiful baby ever born.....all the mothers expect their baby to win.......and say it must be rigged if they don't
I would like to see experienced trainers get the gig................someone with the runs on the board...not someone who is related to someone with runs on the board, not someone who worked for someone with runs on the board,,,,,and certainly not an ex Jockey....it takes many years of trial and error, only trainers have the training.....it is what they do........they live or die by getting it right..........you can't learn it from riding a horse, you can't learn it from leaning over the fence at the races just looking at the horses parade...........The others  may all be very good at it.....but I doubt it and they lack credibility from me.....I can't put money on their opinion

that is my 2 cents worth

Offline Wenona

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« 2018-Jun-16, 08:29 AM Reply #22 »
Don't tell me if the horse looks good today.

Tell me if it looks or behaves better or worse than it did last start, the start before or the last time it won.

The older I get the more convinced I become of the importance of judging if a horse will improve, is unlikely to repeat or improve, or has reasons to be forgiven in form analysis.
« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-16, 08:32 AM by Wenona »

Offline Arsenal

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« 2018-Jun-16, 09:52 AM Reply #23 »
Many horse trainers probably are too fat ...or they don't /can't ride.... they rely on track work riders and jockeys to tell them how the horse went in races or trackwork......is it fit ...does it need more work ..more or less distance .....so I don't agree that trainers are the best judges of a horses' chances ...some trainers are good judges no doubt about that..when my father was alive he had a mate who was friendly with a No,1 trainer who only had a small team but he kept his eyes and ears open and his tips on other trainers' horses on Saturdays  were never far from the money........ one trotting trainer I knew could tell other trainers how to improve their horses he was an experienced horsemen and a very good driver..... most trotting people are jack of all trades do everything themselves ...shoeing... treatment... driving..transporting..... while some horse trainers are good communicators I don't know any who have been /or are employed as mounting yard analysts.

Giddy Up :beer:

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2018-Jun-16, 03:42 PM Reply #24 »
...... when I was a regular racegoer I spent most of my time looking at the horses and assessing their chances on appearance...... picked lots of long priced winners too.....

When I was regular racegoer on course I spent most of my time in the betting ring or in the tote payout queue ..money speaks most languages


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