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Offline Bubbasmith

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O.P. « 2018-Apr-27, 07:05 PM »
Does anyone know whether a Point of Consumption Tax ( PoCT) on bets with on-line bookies & Betfair has been legislated in all Australian states ? I am aware SA introduced legislation last year and WA followed in line.

On checking my winning bets on Betfair this afternoon I noted the commission rate deducted from my winning bets on NSW races was DOUBLE the rate on Victoria races and 50% more than on Queensland races.

Has Betfair "jumped the gun" and upped the rate on all states other than Victoria, or has every state, other than Victoria enacted the legislation ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-17/online-gambling-companies-brace-for-new-tax-in-victoria/9336846
« Last Edit: 2018-Apr-27, 07:45 PM by Bubbasmith »

Offline arthur

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« 2018-Apr-27, 07:41 PM Reply #1 »
In the Land of the Sugar Bush they are still talking about it

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Apr-28, 11:31 AM Reply #2 »
No talk of it in Sin City.

Not after "greyhounds". Premiers very wary of that sort of thing and the dud public service advice that caused it.

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2018-Apr-28, 04:15 PM Reply #3 »
No talk of it in Sin City.

Not after "greyhounds". Premiers very wary of that sort of thing and the dud public service advice that caused it.

If that is the case why is the commission rate deducted from my NSW winning bets twice the rate on Victorian races and 50 % more than on Queensland races ?

« Last Edit: 2018-Apr-28, 04:20 PM by Bubbasmith »

Offline sobig

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« 2018-Apr-28, 04:17 PM Reply #4 »
Difference is because of the racefield fee differences between the states.

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2018-Apr-28, 04:21 PM Reply #5 »
Sobig, where can I find the differing fees between states ?

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2018-Apr-28, 04:33 PM Reply #6 »
Please

 :dry:

Offline sobig

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« 2018-Apr-28, 05:09 PM Reply #7 »
Victorian policy and payment conditions in this link

https://cdn.racing.com/-/media/rv/files/wagering/rv-race-fields-policy---1-july-2016---clean.pdf?la=en

NSW http://www.racingnsw.com.au/rules-policies-whs/race-fields-legislation/race-field-fees-nsw-thoroughbred-races-for-australian-wagering-operators/

Cannot see anything on Queensland site but recall seeing a news item where they had gone to a similar system as RVL but not sure of the rate.

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2018-Apr-28, 07:47 PM Reply #8 »
Sobig.thanks for your positive response,           emthup          unlike some fool who offers nothing other than a sarcastic comment.  emthdown

It appears there is a difference between fees for racefields ( NSW )  and the Point of Consumption Tax, that SA & WA have enacted.

All of which are designed, at the behest of TABs, to extract more from corporates to make them less competitive,  who of course, will pass it onto punters by offering lesser odds

From what I have reliably informed the Victorian government may not enact Racefield Fees, or at a much lower rate than NSW, to offer a more attractive betting environment for punters than that offered by NSW or any other racing jurisdiction in Australia,
« Last Edit: 2018-Apr-28, 08:20 PM by Bubbasmith »

Offline sobig

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« 2018-Apr-28, 09:25 PM Reply #9 »
I am possibly being a little pedantic Bubba (if so I apologise) but all states have racefields legislation.

For "traditional" betting they are all pretty much the same but RVL (and I think Qld) have decided to treat Betfair differently.

The point of consumption tax would probably be an additional tax, although I know NSW and WA are both still in discussions with the
racing industry as to how (and if) it will be applied.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Apr-29, 01:57 AM Reply #10 »
January article on the ABC web site

Online gambling companies brace for new tax in Victoria

How much tax should online bookmakers be charged?

That's the question being asked of the Andrews Government, which will implement a tax on punter losses in Victoria.

South Australia became the first state to implement a Point of Consumption Tax on corporate bookies last year, with a rate of 15 per cent of punter losses.

Bookies, most of whom are licensed in the Northern Territory where licence fees are low, were furious.

All states have agreed to the idea and Western Australia has followed South Australia's lead.

In Victoria, there is pressure on Treasurer Tim Pallas for the state to adopt a much lower rate, given the amount of money corporate bookmakers pay to Racing Victoria and other sports to be allowed to offer markets.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-17/online-gambling-companies-brace-for-new-tax-in-victoria/9336846



The South Australian government web site describes it as a Betting Operations Tax

Betting Operations Tax

The betting operations tax, effective from 1 July 2017, is a consumption tax of 15% on the Net Wagering Revenue (NWR) of betting companies offering services to South Australia.

All bets placed in South Australia with Australian-based betting companies will be liable for the tax.

The betting operations tax will apply to bets on horse, harness and greyhound racing, and bets on sports such as AFL, cricket and soccer. It also applies to other bets, such as those on the winner of the federal election or the Academy Awards.

A tax-free threshold of $150 000 NWR per year applies. Betting companies who expect their NWR to exceed $150 000 for the financial year must register on RevenueSA's online system.


https://www.revenuesa.sa.gov.au/taxes-and-duties/wagering-tax



There actually has been some talk by the NSW Government and a discussion paper produced dated March 2018

If you search for Point Of Consumption Tax on the NSW Treasury web site you get a PDF - which is actually an interesting read

https://www.treasury.nsw.gov.au/

From the discussion paper

Summary of targeted questions

1. Should NSW introduce a PoCT on wagering? If so, why? If not, why not?
If NSW was to introduce a PoCT:
2. Which PoCT design elements should be harmonised across jurisdictions, and why?
3. Should a PoCT be levied on the operator’s net wagering revenue (player loss) or on the operator’s wagering turnover? Why?
4. Should all forms of wagers (online and terrestrial) be captured by a PoCT at a common tax rate?
5. Should a common PoCT rate apply to all wagering types (fixed odds, totalizator, betting exchange etc.)?
6. Should a customer’s location be defined through their usual residential address for the purpose of a PoCT, or should it be based on where the bet was made? How should this be verified and updated?
7. What should the PoCT rate/s for NSW be? For which reasons?
8. Should there be a tax-free threshold? If so, at what level? Should on-course bookmakers be exempt from a PoCT?
Considering the potential impact of a PoCT on wagering practices and the wagering industry:
9. Estimates of the take-up of illegal offshore wagering are uncertain. Stakeholders are encouraged to provide any relevant information or evidence on the sensitivity of punters to changes in odds and shifting to offshore operators.
10. What has been the experience of operators in complying with South Australia’s PoCT administration procedures?
11. What are the practical issues and challenges for stakeholders in implementing a PoCT, and what is an appropriate implementation timeframe in NSW?
12. Is there a preference for coordinated PoCT collection by a single state or revenue office


Some interesting snippets:

NSW wagering tax rates are being reduced over five years to achieve parity with rates in Victoria, as shown in Table 1 below (the ‘tax parity’ arrangement).

(this is why the racing industry in NSW appears to be awash with money but all it is, is that the wagering tax rates are being brought in line with the Victorian model resulting in more money flowing to bodies like Racing NSW i.e. NSW racing industry participants have been getting a rotten deal for years when compared to counterparts in Victoria).

There is no direct measure available of the total amount of wagering undertaken by NSW residents. Based on indirect information, it is estimated that around two-thirds of wagering expenditure by NSW residents is with NSW operators and one-third with operators in the Northern Territory.




Offline arthur

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« 2018-Apr-29, 12:24 PM Reply #11 »
Bookie mate tells me that racefields tax in Qld & Vic same @ 1% of turnover

SA p.o.c. tax is 15% for all bookmakers on 'gross revenue' but with a threshold set at $5 M . .

This would exempt most / all on course bookies and would make it a bit easier to compete with the corps.

I am pretty sure that p.o.c will eventually apply to all states, based on the old cliche about not standing between a politician and a bucket of money



BUT . . it is plastic bags, not brown paper bags that are on the 'bad' list

Offline arthur

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« 2018-Apr-29, 12:53 PM Reply #12 »
PS . . I must admit to not having read PP's post fully before posting the above

Don't know where I got the $5 M from . . may have been turnover, or perhaps a bad dream




Australian-first tax to hit all betting companies operating in South Australia
By political reporter Nick Harmsen
Updated 23 Jun 2016, 3:20pm

The State Government will introduce a so-called "place of consumption" tax of 15 per cent on the net wagering revenue of all betting companies offering services in SA.
"If betting companies are making profits from South Australian punters they should be paying tax in South Australia, not in whichever jurisdiction their head office and servers happen to be located."
The new tax is expected to apply to Ubet, other licensed South Australian bookmakers, interstate betting operators (including TABs), and other commercial players like Sportsbet and Ladbrokes.
A tax-free threshold of $150,000 is proposed for all betting companies.


Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-Apr-29, 04:57 PM Reply #13 »


Let Betfair back in

.............. those rethinking the racing tax arrangements should consider taxing Betfair on gross profit rather than turnover.

The coming of Betfair was the best thing to happen to racing gambling and taxing it out of the game was an act of political vandalism.

Betfair activity is an excellent guide to a raft of possible integrity oiffences.


Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2018-Apr-30, 07:45 PM Reply #14 »
Tim Pallas,Treasurer in the Andrews ALP Government, was on television news today saying in the state budget he will bring down this week, "there will be no increase in state taxes". Taking a literal interpretation of that utterance I assume there will be no PoCT levied on bookies betting on Victorian races and thus punters will be none the worse than they are presently.
What are the odds of there will be no PoCT on Victorian races and as Pallas assumes, in his eyes, taxing bookies is not a tax rise ?

Offline Wenona

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« 2018-Apr-30, 09:42 PM Reply #15 »
.

Online jfc

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« 2018-May-14, 12:48 PM Reply #16 »
How many Greeks are required to destroy the gambling industry!

https://www.punters.com.au/news/victoria-confirms-8-per-cent-punters-tax_168837/

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2018-May-14, 08:31 PM Reply #17 »
Looks as if Tabcorp have got their way. emthdown
I doubt many punters will be left in 10 years time.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-May-14, 11:36 PM Reply #18 »
How many Greeks are required to destroy the gambling industry!

https://www.punters.com.au/news/victoria-confirms-8-per-cent-punters-tax_168837/

Some interesting questions to come out of the decision.

- At 8% for Victoria and 15% for "other states ex NSW", will the corporates frame a different market for each state? I think not. The corporates already pay RVL via digital broadcast rights so the real figure for Victoria is 8% + Digital fees.

- Will NSW follow suit? What an interesting position NSW finds itself in. The article assumes NSW will follow Victoria at 8% but they do not receive digital broadcast income. The other thing is that at $30 million per year (estimate for Vic) this is not a big amount in the big scheme of things. By forgoing a small amount of POC tax they will be in a strong position to attract locally domiciled punters - even some bigger punters may find a way to relocate to NSW and "what you miss out on the merry go round you pick up on the slippery dip" if you know what I mean. 

- This decision, and any decision by NSW to follow suit will hasten the consolidation of the Corporate bookmaker market in Australia. Crown will be forced to merge with either Ladbrokes or Paddy Power (Sportsbet) IMO. This market is like so many other markets in Australia - two or three players plus fringe. e.g. Coles/Woolworths and IGA fringe. Qantas/Virgin plus fringe. Telstra/Optus/Vodafone plus fringe. TAB/UBET will remain a strong player of course because they pay a lot of money for exclusive totalizator rights (something critics of the TAB often forget to acknowledge).

By waiting till last there is a really evil, evil option open to NSW here. 0% for locally domiciled punters betting on local racing and 15% for everything else. If PVL was ever looking for a way to be an "innovating disrupter" this would be it and he holds a lot of clout in Macquarie Street.   :lol:  

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2018-May-15, 02:49 PM Reply #19 »
This is a minefield to determine whether the winning bet is taxed in the state it is placed or where the punter resides. These politicians remind me of those who, when GST was first introduced, originally wanted to have a GST on bets,
Punters, like smokers and drinkers, are always treated by politicians as an "easy touch" when it comes to increasing taxation.

Offline arthur

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« 2018-May-16, 08:24 PM Reply #20 »

Punters . . . . . an "easy touch" when it comes to increasing taxation.

It is not a tax on punters, as such, but rather a tax on bookmakers' gross or net  profit (depending on which newspaper you read) . . . with a threshold



Obviously, it will be passed on to the punter either wholly or partly

But it may be a temporary lifeline for the small on course bookie, who is under the threshold . .


If any punters know that there is such an animal in existence . .

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2018-May-17, 10:35 AM Reply #21 »
I have had a bit of "think music" over this PoCT. Betting on Betfair is the easiest to calculate. If I place a win bet on Betfair and I am subject to a commission rate deduction on my net winnings of, say 5%, Betfair will increase that rate by 8% in Victoria to 5.4 % but if I live in SA or WA they will increase that 5% by 15% to 5,75%.


https://www.dtf.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2018-05/Point%20of%20Consumption%20Tax%20-%20FACT%20SHEET.pdf

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2018-May-17, 10:19 PM Reply #22 »
On the Zeljko thread it was pointed out that Tabcorp allows Zeljko to bet through his Isle of Man set up and gives him rebates, yet on the other hand pressures Australian state governments to impose a PoCT on Australian punters betting with corporate bookies, to level out the playing field between Tabcorp and the corporates.

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-May-18, 05:33 AM Reply #23 »



.......... among other things, the Zelco story tells a story about rebates on bets into tote pools.

The story is not a nice one -- rebates on tote bets should be prohibited.

Offline Arsenal

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« 2018-Jun-03, 02:44 PM Reply #24 »
The Verdict: Point of Consumption tax debate highlights Queensland racing’s dire need of new funds
Nathan Exelby, The Courier-Mail
June 2, 2018 9:45pm

THE Point of Consumption tax debate this week has brought up two issues: whether Queensland racing will get a fair cut of the funds and secondly, will a 15 per cent rate put Queensland racing at a significant disadvantage through reduced turnover.

The first issue has galvanised the industry like few can. Jockeys, trainers, breeders and administrators have been united in their lobbying of government for the tax to be used to prop up Queensland racing. Their case is a simple one: racing should be entitled to the funds it generates.


The big announcement by Racing Victoria on Friday of the huge prizemoney increases, not just for the big name races, but across the board, only served to strengthen the Queensland industry’s claim that it is in dire need of new funds.

New South Wales is yet to announce its POC plans, but Racing NSW supremo Peter V’Landys is lobbying strongly for his industry to be “compensated” for anticipated future losses through Race Information Fee price changes.

“Naturally, we’re concerned because it takes away our pricing power on race fields,” V’Landys said.

“Whatever they do, they have to compensate us for. So the higher the rate, the more they have to compensate us.

“Because we can’t then increase the race fields fee because it will become too expensive for the corporates to bet on our product.”
 Eagle Farm needs a serious makeover.

If New South Wales comes in at under 15 per cent, it has the potential to leave Queensland precariously placed by way of competition with the southern giants.

CrownBet, Ladbrokes and Responsible Wagering Australia all articulated that view last week.

South Australia was the first state to introduce the tax (at 15 per cent) and Thoroughbred Racing South Australia Chief Executive Jim Watters said there was no doubt the POC had an adverse effect on revenue after corporate bookmakers took action to offset the higher tax rate in that state.

“There has been a significant loss of revenue to the South Australian industry as a result of the Point of consumption tax,” Watters said.

“The only way an individual state can’t be disadvantaged is if there is a similar tax rate adopted across the country. It needs to be a uniform rate.”

I haven't followed this closely but I read somewhere that the date of operation is 1 Jan 2019  .....the tax applies to net revenue of some $1millions which won't affect on course bookies but bookkeeping returns will have to be made monthly...on the one hand industry wants the revenue but is worried it will make betting uncompetitive if the tax is 15%....while on the other punters who produce it will likely be worse off whatever the figure markets will be maybe be framed higher......just a guess.


Giddy Up :beer:

« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-03, 02:47 PM by Arsenal »


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