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Author Topic: POINT OF CONSUMPTION TAXES -- WHO WINS, WHO LOSES?  (Read 23412 times)

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Offline Devil

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« 2019-Jan-10, 04:32 PM Reply #50 »
Speaking of $50 notes I seen a young girl try to pass a bodgie $50 of in the local fish and chip shop the other day.
Offered the note for a small bottle of drink but the shopkeeper passed it thru a machine and up it come as counterfeit .
Apparently there are heaps of these dud notes around


Offline Jeunes

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« 2019-Jan-10, 05:36 PM Reply #51 »
Agree and I was told not to accept $50 notes unless it is from an ATM as even experienced retailers are being caught out.

Offline Gintara

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« 2019-Jan-10, 07:04 PM Reply #52 »

Hands up, if you can remember the days when your pay came in cash, in a little brown envelope

Ours were in little yellow envelopes.

I did my apprenticeship at a golf club in the Nth West of Sydney, my first boss who was notoriously tight was out mowing fairways with the tow behind gang mower, 'Bumper' as he was known had his pay in his top pocket and as he turned to look at the mower behind him it fell out and straight through the reels & into confetti   :lol:

He did manage to win Lotto twice so we don't have to feel sorry for him  :/

Offline timw

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« 2019-Jan-13, 10:29 AM Reply #53 »
Are the people lining up at the ATMs using no name debit cards ?

Offline Arsenal

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« 2019-Apr-11, 02:24 PM Reply #54 »
One big gamble
RQ ready for a fight with bookies over fees

TAKING A PUNT: RQ has called for feedback on a new schedule of fees. Pictu AAP

RACING Queensland is set to go into battle with corporate bookmakers after flagging a significant increase to race field fees, gambling on the tax rise offsetting a likely reduction in turnover.

Wagering service providers (WSP) claim the proposed new schedule will make Queensland one of the highest-taxing jurisdictions in the world, particularly when combined with a nation-high 15 per cent point of consumption tax.

RQ has invited feedback on the proposed amendments up until April 26, but most WSPs are resigned to the new schedule of fees being implemented on July 1.

Tote derivative products (which include best tote and any multiple betting options with corporate bookmakers) will now be priced at 26 per cent of gross revenue or 3 per cent of turnover – whichever is greater. On premium meetings, this rises to 36 per cent and 3.25 per cent.

For all other bet types (fixed odds win and place betting) the fee will be set at 21 per cent of revenue or 2.5 per cent of turnover and 26 per cent or 2.75 per cent on premium meetings.

It is understood some corporate bookmakers estimate the new schedule to be an increase of 30 per cent on existing prices.

Combined with the point of consumption tax, a Queensland-based punter betting on a Queensland race could be costing a bookmaker as much as 60 per cent of revenue – a figure some suggest will lead to a significant decline in turnover on Queensland racing.

At present RQ receives 60 per cent of its wagering revenue via Queensland TAB, 20 per cent from interstate TABs and a further 20 per cent from corporate bookmakers.

It is understood RQ has modelled for some decline in turnover, but still anticipates the new schedule of fees to deliver bigger returns from WSPs, which in turn they will use to bolster funding to individual clubs.

“As an organisation, it is imperative that we operate in a more commercial manner,” RQ chief executive Brendan Parnell said. RQ has also flagged its intention to introduce minimum bet limits for harness and greyhound racing, following the introduction to gallops races in 2017.

Giddy Up :beer:

Offline Arsenal

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« 2019-Jun-23, 11:04 AM Reply #55 »
In QLD Parliament on the last sitting day of the current session this is an exceprt from the statement made by  Mr Tim Nicholls LNP Clayfield onthe PoC tax
Budget, Taxes Mr NICHOLLS (Clayfield—LNP) (11.26 pm):
Continuing the theme of the week, I want to talk about the effect of this Labor government’s taxes, charges, levies and increases of all sorts, making life harder for the residents in my electorate. The first of those I might deal with that affects my electorate is the wagering tax. The wagering tax has a significant impact on my electorate. I have Eagle Farm, Doomben racetrack and Albion Park racetrack in my electorate. Three of the major racetracks in Queensland are located in my electorate. Many people employed in the racing industry live in my electorate. In fact, they live in the suburb that I live in—Hendra—and will be affected by it.

14 Jun 2019 Adjournment 2239 Wagering taxes go from $9 million in 2017-18 to over $100 million in 2019-20—a tenfold increase in two years. Ordinary punters are being slugged by this Labor government and only a fraction goes to industry. None of it is going back, for example, into upgrading Albion Park—not even to replacing the starter’s box, which has been surrounded by scaffolding for years. While the Premier is happy to turn up and drink champers and have canapes at Stradbroke Day, like Marie Antoinette, she looks over the crowd at ordinary racegoers, punters, racehorse trainers, racehorse owners and jockeys and says, ‘Let them eat cake.’

Giddy Up :beer:

Offline Arsenal

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« 2019-Jun-24, 09:01 AM Reply #56 »
Fees too taxing for bookies
AS RACING authorities wage an arms race for prizemoney and governments bolster their coffers with new taxes, figures show punters are the ones picking up the tab.

Now they are warning that the situation has reached tipping point.

Recent figures show starting price market percentages in Sydney and Melbourne have grown from 117 per cent to 121 per cent, coinciding with rising product fees and the introduction of state-based Point of Consumption taxes.

To put that in perspective, Richard Irvine from Fair Wagering Australia said it was equivalent to punters taking $1.65 in a head to head market.

“This is bad for horse racing,” he said.

“If sophisticated gamblers can’t make money and recreational gamblers lose their money (too) quickly, the industry suffers.”

Furthermore, Irvine said, even with inflated markets the fees were now so high that it was becoming increasingly difficult for many bookmakers to run a sustainable business.

“We have reached the tipping point – there’s going to be casualties,” he said. “If we start losing bookies, we lose the forces of competition that create value for punters.”

At the weekend, Lloyd Merlehan’s Top Sports, a respected bookmaker for its willingness to take business from winning punters, announced changes to its product offering on Victorian and WA racing because of exorbitant fee structures.

Racing Victoria charges fees on a “per meeting” basis on whichever is the higher of revenue or turnover (Queensland’s is calculated monthly with a ceiling of 2.5 per cent turnover on fees paid).

Top Sports director Tristan Merlehan said the Victorian structure resulted in them paying as much as $2 on every $1 they make on Victorian racing.

He cited figures from last year’s Melbourne Cup week, where Top Sports had turnover of $4.5 million for gross revenue of $88,000, but paid $148,000 in fees.
The POC tax was “the straw that broke the camel’s back” after years of fee increases, Irvine said.

“We have been paying these fees in Victoria and thought we would ride it out and see if it changed, and then Point of Consumption has come on top, which has made it virtually impossible,” he said. “This is the last thing we want to do.

“We don’t want to make our offering worse for clients (but) unless we make a stand there’s going to be no change, and if there’s no change I feel there’s big issues coming.

“I feel it’s so important we get something across now, so that in five to 10 years time the wagering industry is still flourishing.”

An industry source said the Top Sports action may spark a host of others to follow.

“For an operator of Top Sports repute to say to its customers you cannot use a bonus bet on Victorian racing is an extraordinary move and a watershed moment in how wagering operators respond to race field fees,” the source said.

“Up until now, no one had ever taken a huge step like this.

“It’s unlikely this will be the only step of this nature.”


Gazing into the crystal ball bookies won't survive if Topbet's experience is a fair representation......fancy clearing $88K on the Cup but having to pay $145K in tax turning a win into a loss of $57K........be interesting to see how many bookies are fielding on course these days ......not too many I would think ...compared to the good old days with bookies shoulder to shoulder in three enclosures.

Fair Wagering Australia summary of the case.


Giddy Up :beer:

« Last Edit: 2019-Jun-24, 09:08 AM by Arsenal »

Offline arthur

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« 2019-Jun-24, 10:58 AM Reply #57 »
Someone has the bull by the tail here . .

If that same M.Cup scenario applies to the rest of the annual turnover, they would be running at a loss on every race they field on

Which obviously is not the case

Online wily ole dog

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« 2019-Jun-24, 05:00 PM Reply #58 »
I don’t believe them for one moment.

Offline Antitab#

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« 2019-Jun-24, 05:06 PM Reply #59 »
Lloyd and Tristan are telling the truth.

They can’t win at Victorian Racing because of the model RVL use to charge product fees.

If you go and have a look at the original Press Release they itemise Cup week last year.

The Victorian model is charged on a per meeting basis with a fee on turnover or profit whichever is higher.

I will guarantee you that at the margins Top Sport run at they will lose in Victoria over the year.

Online Bubbasmith

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« 2019-Jun-24, 06:14 PM Reply #60 »

Online JWesleyHarding

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« 2019-Jun-24, 06:21 PM Reply #61 »
Now that Folau's spot is free maybe they should try a spot of crowdfunding.

Offline Arsenal

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« 2019-Jun-24, 06:40 PM Reply #62 »
RV responds to TopSport decision
Matt Welsh Matt Welsh@Themodernpunter   10:13am
, (
Australian owned bookmaker TopSport has announced that it will be cutting the wagering products it offers on both Victorian and Western Australian.

In a release posted on the company’s website on Friday, TopSport stated that, “We reluctantly inform you, our valued clients, of a number of impending changes to our product offerings and pricing on Victorian thoroughbred, and Western Australian thoroughbred, greyhound and harness, racing, on and from 1 July 2019.”

TopSport stated it will offer higher market percentages, lower minimum bet limits and reduced product offerings to Victoria and Western Australian customers.

Additionally, Victorian fixed odds provincial markets won’t be released until 9.30am on raceday, which is a shift away from current practices that see prices offered well in advance.

TopSport cited Victoria’s product fees as its major cause for concern.

“During the past two years, TopSport has paid Racing Victoria 150 per cent of its gross revenue from Victorian racing in the form of product fees,” the statement read.

"In most jurisdictions, bookmakers are obliged to pay a percentage of their revenue when they win, and a comparatively smaller percentage of their turnover when they lose.

“The fundamental distinction between the Victorian and Western Australian taxation regimes and those that operate in other jurisdictions, and the reason the Victorian and Western Australian models are significantly more burdensome, is the basis on which they calculate a bookmaker's revenue.”

On Monday, Racing Victoria responded to TopSport's decision to cut product offerings on Victorian racing.

“Racing Victoria's basis for the application of race fields fees has been in place for several years and remains unchanged for the 2019-20 financial year,” Racing Victoria's statement read.

“Victoria produces the premier thoroughbred racing product in Australia and we collect fees through our race fields model which are in keeping with the quality of the product produced.

"These fees support ongoing investment in the growth and sustainability of Victorian thoroughbred racing and the 25,000 jobs it delivers, while underpinning a significant annual contribution to the Victorian state economy.

“Our race fields framework is applicable to all operators who accept wagers on Victorian thoroughbred racing on the same terms.

"This may present challenges for some wagering operators with specific business models and it is unfortunate that this has resulted in the need for some changes to TopSport’s product offering.

“We continue to monitor the wagering landscape closely in order to remain abreast of market dynamics and emerging issues so as to make decisions in the best overall interests of Victorian thoroughbred racing.

"We are continually striving to strike a balance between the needs and wishes of multiple stakeholders in the racing ecosystem, ensuring that value is split equitably between customers, wagering operators, racing authorities and government.”

TopSport's turnover accounts for one per cent of the total annual turnover on Victorian thoroughbred racing.

Giddy Up :beer:

Offline Arsenal

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« 2019-Jun-26, 12:25 PM Reply #63 »
The question has been answered how many bookies are licensed in QLD   89  according to QRIC's discussion paper released today.

Way back in June 1963 at the Brisbane Cup meeting at Eagle Farm there were 83 in the Paddock another 124 in the St Leger and Flat ......some big names amongst them not frightened to take a decent bet...Jim Watson , Digger Lobb ,Artie Griffiths ,Clive Marsh , Jack Hannay Snr ,Billy McLead ,Frank Burke ,Doug Boyle ,Kevin Kent , Stan Schluter , Rae Harris , Jack Steen ,  Jack Lacey , Graham Young , son of Taggie, Harry Hood ,Merv Cooper in the leger then as was Brian Ogilvie.

Giddy Up :beer:

Offline arthur

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« 2019-Jun-26, 01:33 PM Reply #64 »
Would be interesting to see a breakdown of the 89 into age groups . .

Would be quite a few who will need chauffeurs if the current Qld 'war' on aging drivers is successful

My guess as to the oldest, would be Jim Turner (an ex-MLA) who fields at 'bush' meetings around Central Qld . . I would put him at one side or the other of 90

Offline Dave

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« 2019-Jun-28, 09:21 PM Reply #65 »
It is certainly affecting my turnover, down by close to 2/3rds Bookmakers aren't charities, they are in it to make a profit, after all isn't that why we are all in it?
They give a hell of a lot away in promotions, the percentages can get down to around 105% and I have seen it even lower, this gives any punter a fair chance of winning, it is very competitive, any more tax and some will need to get out, if that happens competition will be reduced, percentages will increase dramatically, Bookies will need to cut unprofitable clients.....that doesn't just mean cut winners, that mean cut anyone who isn't a big loser.....i.e. if you bet $100,000 a year and return $90,000 that isn't a $10,000 win for the bookie, it is a big loss........Bookies aren't the enemy of Punters or vice versa, one can't survive without the other......and racing can't survive without both!.........I remember going back to the 60's Big Bill Waterhouse was fielding at the Melbourne Cup Carnival, just in his battle with one of the big Punters of the day, Frank Duval, Duval turned over huge figures, he finished losing to bill (in the 100's of thousands, from memory) and Bill lost twice as much in turnover tax......they both lost heavily for the pleasure of working..........bookies are part of the show.....they should be treated like Jockeys/Trainers/Owners and Horses.........not taxed out of existence, I have no problem with them paying whats fair, and neither do they, Prizemoney is getting beyond the ridiculous, they don't need any more and I can tell you they won't get it from this little black duck!!
If I can't get the price I want I don't bet.....that will never change, I like to punt on Thoroughbred racing.....but I don't have to!
They want to take advantage of the so called "problem gamblers" the ones they know can't say NO! The one's that don't know any better, the ones that don't know when they are being screwed and are used to losing anyway
They're parasites for doing that, don't you think??