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Author Topic: POLL: GROUP STATUS FOR SALES-RELATED RACES  (Read 2955 times)

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Offline dubbledee

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O.P. « 2009-Jan-13, 11:47 AM »
Magic Millions time always brings debate on the fact that Australia's Pattern Committee doesn't allocate a Group/Listed/Black Type status to sales-based races (such as Magic Millions).

MM principal John Singleton conveyed his own disproval - as he would - on Racing Retro.

Personally, I think he has a valid case.  After all, the Pattern Committee in its wisdom looks at the performance of the placegetters in a race such as Magic Millions, rather than the prize-money offered and the "hype" that surrounds it.  If the race is won by a horse that doesn't perform against "open" company, well it would not get past first base.

The fact is, the form of the placegetters in sales-based races in recent times has stacked up in subsequent open events.

Maybe it's time for a change of heart by the Pattern Committee?

Offline Antitab#

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« 2009-Jan-13, 11:54 AM Reply #1 »
Some of the MM form is reaonable, just as much is rubbish. 

Those Inglis Classic races in both Melbourne and Sydney for $500 000 are complete garbage.

Definately no.

Offline manikato1

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« 2009-Jan-13, 11:56 AM Reply #2 »
DD,

There should be no restrictions on races that are Group races, other than those by age and/or sex.  Allowing a horse black type for winning a sales restricted race would make a mockery of the whole system.  These horses will get plenty of other opportunities for black type, if they get black type then well and good and the MM doesn't need it, if they don't then it shows that it really doesn't deserve it.

Offline dubbledee

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« 2009-Jan-13, 12:00 PM Reply #3 »
But Antitab...if indeed the races are "rubbish"....the Pattern Committee would reject them anyway.

The question is should they be ELIGIBLE for Group status.

Offline BurntToast

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« 2009-Jan-13, 12:01 PM Reply #4 »
Depends what you call rubbish Antitab - most listed and G3 races could have that argument applied too.

When it comes down to it, wouldn't it be a benefit to both the buyer and seller to see: 1st 2008 Magic Millions on the pedigree page rather than just winner (1200m) - I assume that's what happens now?

Why couldn't it get listed status? (I would definitely be against it being called a G1 though, some allowance does need to be made due to the restrictions), maybe a new status would be better?

Offline Antitab#

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« 2009-Jan-13, 12:11 PM Reply #5 »
Depends what you call rubbish Antitab - most listed and G3 races could have that argument applied too.



I mean rubbish horses that never win again. For every Dance Hero, Gold Edition there are three  Tereshenko, Tippitaka, Augusta Proud, Paradiddle, Jameson Valley etc etc and that is in the so called classic races.

Some of the horses that win the other races on the program are only just up to metropoliton class.

They are restricted races, the quality is debatable there is no valid reason why they should be given any extra status.

Offline BurntToast

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« 2009-Jan-13, 12:20 PM Reply #6 »
It's a 2yo race (and an early one at that), you're always going to get lots of variance in how they go on with things in the rest of their career... have you looked at the winners list of races such as the Blue Diamond, Gimcrack, Debutante stakes etc?

In fact, I think a bigger question is why the first 2yo races of the season are given group status - restricting a race to the first few horses that get rushed into training is just as much of a concern isn't it?

Offline dubbledee

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« 2009-Jan-13, 12:22 PM Reply #7 »
They are restricted races, the quality is debatable there is no valid reason why they should be given any extra status.[/quote]

That's exactly the role of the Pattern Committee: to debate the quality of the race over time - using the before and after perfomances of the placegetterrs - and lower or raise the race's status.

It's not as if the PC sits around with a cup of tea and says "Let's make the MM Group 2."

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2009-Jan-13, 01:24 PM Reply #8 »
Yet another "Southern Conspiracy"  :mad:

Offline BillandTony

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« 2009-Jan-13, 01:47 PM Reply #9 »
I am not sure on this subject. On one hand I can the validty of keeping things as they are, but then the mor I think about, I don't the harm in grading them the same as all other races.

Offline richo

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« 2009-Jan-13, 02:36 PM Reply #10 »
no way . A group race should be only be for horses that can nominate from anywhere in aus or nz and not restricted to a special sale ,singo and co. only want it to give more credence to their sales ie more money in their pocket.

Offline BurntToast

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« 2009-Jan-13, 02:40 PM Reply #11 »
no way . A group race should be only be for horses that can nominate from anywhere in aus or nz and not restricted to a special sale.

Why? What's the big deal?

I agree it shouldn't be G1, but why not at least Listed?

Offline manikato1

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« 2009-Jan-13, 03:09 PM Reply #12 »
Why? What's the big deal?

I agree it shouldn't be G1, but why not at least Listed?

I agree that it is worthy of listed status, but not group status.

The problem with giving it group status is where does it end?  Could some of the big studs get together and offer a race only for offspring of their sires?  What about a race only for members of a certain club?  You would probably find that in each of those cases you would get good quality winners, enough to give the race Group status, but in the long term it will hurt the racing/breeding industries if we allowed these races to be group level.

On a similar note, is it true that most of the group races in Japan are not considered "group" races internationally because they are limited to horses in the JRA system?  I am sure that I read that somewhere, could be wrong though.


Offline calgary

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« 2009-Jan-13, 03:40 PM Reply #13 »
I also think this is a big no go.

Group and Listed races should be open to all comers, with the obvious nature-based restrictions (age, gender). A horse from the UK, the US, or Asia should be able to come to Australia any time an race in any of our Group or Listed races.

It would be the equivalent of having a gold medal event in the olympics for individuals born in a certain country. If you want the black type - then take on all comers to get it.

Offline dubbledee

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« 2009-Jan-13, 09:55 PM Reply #14 »
You Sancho Panzas continue to overlook the fact no race will be even considered for Group/Listed status by the Pattern Committee unless, over a period of time, the horses that fill the placings perform well in other events.  The rating is not about the race as such, but the quality of horses that fill the placings.

Looking around the placegetters in the MM over the years they're up to standard with those in other Group/Listed races in Oz.

Offline woodywob

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« 2009-Jan-13, 10:39 PM Reply #15 »
maybe all the first 2yo races in Australia should be eligible for group status ...... afterall there might be a potential champion there .......

no to sales based group races .......

Anyone got any figures on how many Magic M sales based horses have made it through to the Cox Plate ?
« Last Edit: 2009-Jan-13, 10:40 PM by woodywob »

Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Jan-13, 10:43 PM Reply #16 »
No.

There is no debate.

Anybody who says yes is just wrong, Or John Singleton.

Very very simple.

Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Jan-13, 11:17 PM Reply #17 »
I wonder if Australia's cataloguing board could make a decision to give a sales restricted race group status without getting approval from an international body ?

Australia would be the laughing stock of the thoroughbred world.

Offline woodywob

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« 2009-Jan-13, 11:41 PM Reply #18 »
we're probably lucky MM is not NSW based ....

Offline Gintara

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« 2009-Jan-14, 06:07 AM Reply #19 »
Now Woody you wouldn't believe that would you  :what: doubt there would be too many in NSW that would argue that the Inglis classic should get listed or group status   :lol:

It's a no for me, I can't see where you were brought allows criteria to get into a 'group' race.

I can't even entertain 'listed' status, that just like sitting on the fence, it's either yes or no  :wacko:

Offline The Carnegie Express

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« 2009-Jan-14, 07:05 AM Reply #20 »
sales races should not be listed nor group races. Simple arguement really. The day the MM race is open to any runner then it can receive a listed or group status.

Online JWesleyHarding

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« 2009-Jan-14, 08:34 AM Reply #21 »
This whole Black Type bullshit is designed for breeders to hoodwink others who are too lazy to assess racecourse performances.

"Oh shit have a look at all that Black Type in its pedigree, it must have prospects."

Doesn't matter about the quality of that black type, as long as its slashed all about.

My vote..get rid of all this Group nonsense and let performances stand on their own feet.
« Last Edit: 2009-Jan-14, 11:14 AM by JohnWesleyHarding »

Offline woodywob

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« 2009-Jan-14, 08:37 AM Reply #22 »
Geoff, go to the Royal Show mate ......... I think dressage will fulfill your needs ....

Offline Authorized

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« 2009-Jan-14, 09:44 AM Reply #23 »
Geoff is actually right on this. If they are going to have blck type it must be done properly, But Geoff is right.  It is purely and simply for breeding no other purpose.

It should be pointed out that the Magic Millions does have RL status.

Offline poxdoctor

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« 2009-Jan-14, 09:55 AM Reply #24 »

Working Guidelines and Criteria

The Australian Pattern Committee utilise the following Working Guidelines&Criteria in assessing races for"Black Type"status:-

It is advised that these Guidelines are used as a guide only and are flexible in their application.

  1. A race shall generally have 3 runnings prior to being included in the Listings as a Listed event.
     
  2. A race shall generally have 2 runnings as a Black Type race prior to being upgraded in the Listings.
     
  3. Fillies and mares races submitted for inclusion or upgrading in the Listings must achieve a similar standard to fillies and mares currently enjoying Black Type status, with further consideration to approximating a similar standard to open sex races which are included in the Listings.
  4. If an existing"Black Type"race has a change of date (2 months or more), distance (more than 200metres) or conditions (eg. WFA to Handicap etc.), it is advised that the race in question could be considered a new race and accordingly its existing"Black Type"status could be reviewed.
  5. Prizemoney. (Please refer to Item (vii) - Criteria).
     
  6. Races submitted for upgrading within the listings should possess an acceptable number of winners and placegetters at their current level.Those races submitted for inclusion within the listings should have an acceptable number of winners at metropolitan level (preferably at metropolitan open level).
     
  7. Generally, a race can only be upgraded one level at a time. Group 2 races are only to be upgraded to Group 1 status if they carry Weight For Age or Set Weights conditions
     
  8. The Australian Pattern Committee endeavours to establish and maintain a"pyramid"approach in order to ensure international credibility with regard to the allocation of Australian"Black Type"races, i.e. Group 1 - 12%, Group 2 - 15%, Group 3 - 19%, and Listed - 54%. (It is advised that this approach is based on the Pyramid Model used by most Part 1 countries).
     
  9. The Committee has a set of Criteria it applies when assessing the standard of a particular race. This is as follows;
     
    1. The quality of the field is to be assessed by the ratings which are achieved by the average rating of the first four past the post.
       
    2. Prizemoney;
       
    3. The type of race - (in descending order) Standard weight-for-age; set weights; set weights&penalties; quality handicap; or handicap);
       
    4. Restrictive conditions, eg. sex, age;
       
    5. The individual number of Black Type performances prior or subsequent to the race submitted; 
       
    6. National prizemoney levels for Group&Listed races:-
      National prizemoney levels as listed below are to become effective as criteria (xi) on 1st August, 2005:-
      • Group 1: $250,000
      • Group 2: $125,000
      • Group 3: $ 75,000
      • Listed (Group 4): $ 50,000

    Please note:Tasmania has an ongoing dispensation of 20% below the above prizemoney levels

    1. Whether the race is part of a feature carnival in a particular State
       
  10. It should also be noted that:-
    1. Races restricted solely to horses sold through a specific sale or bred in a particular area will not be eligible for Group or Listed status.
    2. In the event of a change in the conditions, including distance, venue or timing for a race, it may retain its existing classification if, in the opinion of the Pattern Committee, the quality of the race is likely to be maintained or enhanced.

Such races must be notified to the Pattern Committee Secretary. The Pattern Committee shall make recommendations to the ARB in relation to any proposed changes in this regard.



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