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Offline Authorized

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« 2017-Feb-16, 10:01 PM Reply #1300 »

JWS , does anyone ask for roast beef when you are walking around with a pumpkin on your shoulders ? Fancy bagging Bernborough.


  :noteworthy:

Offline tontonan

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« 2017-Feb-16, 11:21 PM Reply #1301 »
Attached is Brian's  very complete account of Shannon's remarkable career reformatted with paragraphs.

Also I have attached the file to timw's account of Shannon's career record so that anyone interested in the horse will have access to both from the index.
« Last Edit: 2017-Feb-16, 11:27 PM by tontonan »

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2017-Feb-17, 08:02 AM Reply #1302 »
JWS , does anyone ask for roast beef when you are walking around with a pumpkin on your shoulders ? Fancy bagging Bernborough.
Carried weight, won over a variety of distances, in both handicaps and WFA races and put together an amazing sequence of wins. Maybe you suffer from that syndrome that if anything doesn't come from Sydney or Melbourne it can't be any good. Let me remind you that an exaggerated percentage of our great trainers and jockeys also come from SA and QLD. Cummings and Hayes remain at the pinnacle of our trainers. Both from SA. Find me three better jockeys than Moore, Sellwood and Dittman from any of those so talented southern provinces!


He certainly had a stunning 12 month prep

Offline pwa54

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« 2017-Feb-17, 08:49 AM Reply #1303 »
Thanks for attaching Shannon's career. It was a great read! Jessica Owers' book on Shannon (2013?) contains lots of material on Peter Riddle and his health battles but it was a shame Shannon didn't race outside of Sydney.  Brian, that description of the Craven Plate with Russia and Columnist put you right there! You're absolutely right that, like Galilee, Shannon shouldn't be judged on the number of G1s but on the quality of his wins.

It does seem that after Ajax, High Caste and Beau Vite finished in the very early 40s, Flight and Tranquil Star were the only ones to achieve the rank of champion until Bernborough and Shannon and then a wait until Comic Court and probably Russia, Carbon Copy and Chicquita (all of whose records probably should be on here). 

A couple of horses from that decade that are largely forgotten now include one that Douglas Barrie in his book Turf Cavalcade gave a wrap to in Murray Stream and I remember John Birtle(?) in an old Turf Monthly reckoning that Attley's achievements were undeservedly forgotten. Attley got at least a dozen stakes races (including 5 that are now G1s) in his 20 wins and 1 DH from 63 starts. I'll get their records on to here eventually.

I'm sure it's been posted here before but this footage alone shows what a champion Bernborough was

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arRwUQALt6k



« Last Edit: 2017-Feb-17, 08:54 AM by pwa54 »

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2017-Feb-17, 09:14 AM Reply #1304 »
No gunbower I don't suffer from that syndrome and I'm well aware of the careers of the icons you mentioned as I am aware of the absolutely fantastic  11 months span of Bernborough's great achievements.

Offline tontonan

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« 2017-Feb-18, 08:35 PM Reply #1305 »
This is the former Miller's Guide record for Chicquita.



1948-49  At TWO YEARS
11-Jun20th 26Flemington Rothsay Hcp6f 7.1-- Ailsa8.10 01:17.7

1949-50  At THREE YEARS
6-AugWON 18Caulfield ElsternwickSks7f 7.910-1 Ailsa9.5 01:26.7
27-AugWON 22Flemington Elfington Hcp7f 7.136-4 f Patron8.7 01:25.5
3-SepWON 20Caulfield Glen Eira Hcp7f 8.89-10 f Auburn7.8 01:26.2
1-OctWON 16Flemington Edward Manifold8f 8.74-7 f Dusky Rose8.7 01:40.0
15-OctWON 17Caulfield ThousandGuineas8f 8.54-6 f Broadway8.5 01:42.5
29-OctWON 19Flemington Wakeful Stakes8f 9.41-3 f Dusky Rose8.11 01:41.0
3-NovWON 17Flemington VRC Oaks12f 8.14-7 f Happy Medium8.10 02:42.7
24-DecWON 7M. Valley Kinross Hcp8f 8.111-4 f Atomic Lass7.1 01:39.5
2-Jan4th 10Flemington Standish Hcp6f 8.611-8 f Regular Port8.1 01:13.7
11-FebWON 20Flemington Gooparle Highw't8f 9.19-4 f Sunnyland8.2 01:38.0
25-Feb2ND 14Caulfield St George Stakes9f 83-1 Comic Court9 01:51.0
13-MarWON 6Flemington CM Lloyd Stakes8f 8.34-5 f St. Razzle8.11 01:37.2
25-Mar2ND 11M.Valley Alister Clark Stakes10f 8.22-1 f Comic Court9.4 02:10.5
8-Apr=2ND 15Caulfield Victoria Hcp7f 8.112-1 f Star Port7.10 01:28.5
10-Apr2ND 20Caulfield Sandown Cup12f 8.137-1 Plovarius7.5 02:35.0

1950-51  At FOUR YEARS
19-Aug4th 34Flemington Chesterfield Hcp6f 8.72-1 f Sefton6.11 01:13.2
26-AugWON 11M. Valley Tullamarine Hcp8f 8.94-7 f Ellerslie9.0 01:39.2
9-SepWON 7M.Valley Feehan Stakes8f 8.91-2 f Achilles9.0 01:38.0
16-SepWON 6Flemington Craiglee Stakes10f 8.97-2 Comic Court9.4 02:07.5
28-SepUnpl 8Caulfield Underwood Stakesa9fur xxxx Beau Gem9.4 01:53.2
18-Oct4th 9Caulfield Caulfield Stakesa9fur 8.99-2 Comic Court9.4 01:52.2
21-Oct2ND 20Caulfield Caulfield Cup12f 8.1115-1 Grey Boots7.13 02:31.0
4-Nov2ND 9Flemington LKS Mackinnon10f 8.93-1 f Comic Court9.3 02:05.7
7-Nov2ND 25Flemington Melbourne Cup16f 8.19-1 Comic Court9.5 03:19.5
11-Nov3RD 4Flemington Fisher Plate12f 8.98-11 f Playboy9.0 02:35.2
27-Jan4th 9M.Valley Will. Reid Stakes6f 8.77-1 Flying Halo7.7 01:09.7
10-Feb2ND 8M. Valley CF Orr Stakes8f 8.119-2 Comic Court9.1 01:37.2
24-Feb7th 11Caulfield Futurity Stakes7f 9.122-1 f Iron Duke9.13 01:24.7
3-Mar2ND 4Flemington Ercildoune Stakes12f 8.115-2 Comic Court9.3 02:41.0
17-MarWON 10M. Valley Alister Clark Stakes10f 8.115-4 f True Course8.2 02:03.0
26-Mar2ND 9Flemington Sandown Cup13f 8.131-3 f PrinceO'Fairies8.4 02:45.0

1951-52 At FIVE YEARS
18-AugWON 17Flemington Liston Stakes7f 8.1111-2 Ellerslie9.0 01:29.0
1-Sep2ND 10Caulfield Memsie Stakes9f 8.134-5 f Ellerslie9.1 01:56.0
15-SepWON 12Flemington Craiglee Stakes10f 8.1311-8 f Basha Felika8.11 02:07.2
6-Oct4th 6Flemington Turnbull Stakes12f 9.75-4 f Morse Code9.2 02:35.7
 

Chicquita was the dam of 13 foals including 9 winners.  Her best was Eskimo Prince (x Todman) who won 1963 STC Silver Slipper Stakes, 1963 AJC Breeders' Plate, 1964 STC Rosehill Guineas, 1964 STC Golden Slipper Stakes , 1964 STC Canterbury Stakes, 1964 AJC Sires' Produce Stakes and the 1965 STC Hill Stakes. Another son King Nero (x Empyrean) won the 1958 Herbert Power Hcp. Chicquita ran the quinella in the 1950 Melbourne Cup with Comic Court. Comic Court and Chicquita produced Comicquita whp ran second in the 1962 Melbourne Cup to Even Stevens.

In the 1960's the VRC built stables at the back of the course off Smithfield Road adjacent to the 'scraping sheds' (which had traditionally been where horses brought to the course for training were accommodated).  Tony Lopes leased the new stables and named them Chicquita Lodge in huge letters that were very visible from the grandstands and a familiar landmark of the course for many years. In 1988 John Meagher took them over and refurbished them.  They were closed in 2006.



« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-14, 12:51 PM by tontonan »

Offline tontonan

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« 2017-Feb-18, 08:59 PM Reply #1306 »


CARBON COPY

1945 chestnut horse 
Helios GB - Havers  (11-f)
Owned by A & H Silk
Trained by Des McCormick
£28696 record earnings for a 3YO

45 starts  14 wins  10 seconds  6 thirds £ 
Win :31.1 %  Place :66.6 %  Range : 7f to 18f   Average Win : 12.1f

 

1947-48  At TWO YEARS   8 starts 1 win 1 second 0 thirds

3-Jan 11th 14Mentone Sturt Hcp 5f 8.9 30-1 San Cristabel 8.9 01:01.5
10-Jan 6th 10M.Valley Alfred Hcp 5f 850-1 Gay Saint 9.0 01:00.7
17-Jan 5th 19Mentone Shrewsbury Hcp 5f 820-1 Great Hero 7.5 01:02.0
14-Feb 8th 14Caulfield Federal Stakes 5f 7.5 20-1 Bengal 9.2 01:03.0
28-Feb 9th 33Flemington March Nursery 6f 7.3 50-1 Delhi 7.12 01:13.5
3-Mar 2ND 16Flemington GibsonCarmichael 7f 7.1 16-1 Bruvaros 7.5 01:27.0
29-Mar WON 15Flemington WRC Easter Sks 7f 7.8 4-1f Phoibos 8.7 01:26.5
13-Jul 15th 19M. Valley Derrimut Hcp a6f 7.7 50-1 Assam 8.7 01:13.0
 

1948-49  At THREE YEARS    18 Starts 9 wins 4 seconds 1 third

14-Aug WON 13Caulfield ChatsworthPlate 8f 7.13 6-1 Derrymore 8.5 01:42.5
28-Aug 2ND 12M. Valley Ailsa Hcp 8f 8.6 7-4 f Clement 7.12 01:39.5
11-Sep 2ND 7Randwick Chelsmford Hcp a9f 7.9 50-1 Bernbrook 7.9 01:52.5
18-Sep 11th 18Rosehill Rosehill Guineas 10f 8.5 10-1 Bernbrook 8.5 02:06.0
2-Oct WON 13Randwick AJC Derby 12f 8.1 4-1 Vagabond 8.10 02:33.5
23-Oct WON 9M.Valley W S Cox Plate 10f 7.11 5-1 Phoibos 7.11 02:04.2
30-Oct 3RD 12Flemington Victoria Derby 12f 8.1 7-4 f ComicCourt 8.10 02:35.2
2-Nov 8th 30Flemington Melbourne Cup 16f 7.6 14-1 Rimfire 7.2 03:21.0
22-Jan 5th 9M. Valley William Reid Sks a6f 8.7 15-1 ComedyPrince 8.7 01:11.0
5-Feb 5th 18M. Valley Chelsea Hcp a6f 8.8 7-4 Drumfires 8.0 01:12.7
19-Feb 2ND 12M.Valley Gisborne Hcp 10f 8.5 11-4 Comic Court 8.5 02:04.5
26-Feb WON 7Caulfield St George Sks 9f 8.3 6-4 Comic Court 8.3 01:51.2
12-Mar 2ND 4Flemington VRC St Leger 13f 8.1 6-4f Comic Court 8.10 02:59.5
16-Mar WON  Flemington VRC King's Plate 14f 8.2 10/9= Russia 9.3 02.56.7
9-Apr WON 7Randwick ChippingNorton a10f 8.6 11-8 f De La Salle 8.13 02:05.7
16-Apr WON 4Randwick AJC St Leger 13f 8.1 10/9* Comic Court 8.10 03:02.0
18-Apr WON 20Randwick Sydney Cup 16f 8.5 4-1 f Vagabond 8.2 03:23.5
23-Apr WON 3Randwick AJC Plate 18f 8.3 1-3 f Russia 9.4 04:01.0
 

1949-50  At FOUR YEARS   18 Starts 4 wins 5 seconds 4 thirds

27-Aug 8th 38Flemington Chesterfield Hcp 6f 9.7 10-1 Regal Scout 7.12 01:13.5
3-Sep 2ND 6Caulfield Memsie Stakes 9f 93-1 Comic Court 9.0 01:52.0
17-Sep 2ND 8Flemington Craiglee Stakes 10f 95-4 f Comic Court 9.0 02:05.7
1-Oct 3RD 6Randwick Col Stephen Sks 19f 99-10 f Vagabond 9.0 02:35.7
6-Oct WON 7Randwick Craven Plate 10f 96-4 f Thracian Lad 7.8 02:06.7
8-Oct WON 6Randwick RandwickPlate 16f 94-7 f Proctor 9.7 03:23.2
22-Oct 3RD 12M.Valley MV Gold Cup 13f 9.3 8-11 f Hoyle 7.7 02:45.2
29-Oct 5th 8Flemington Mackinnon Sks 10f 97-2 Comic Court 9.0 02:04.2
4-Feb 3RD 7M. Valley Orr Stakes 8f 910-1 St Razzle 8.13 01:39.0
18-Feb 2ND 8M. Valley Gisborne Hcp 10f 9.2 3-1 Phoibos 8.9 02:07.0
25-Feb 6th 14Caulfield St George Sks 9f 914-1 Comic Court 9.0 01:51.0
11-Mar 3RD 4Flemington Ercildoune Sks 12f 99-4 Comic Court 9.0 02:31.5
15-Mar 2ND 3Flemington King's Plate 14f 96-4 Delta 8.2 03:03.0
18-Mar WON 4Flemington Carbine Stakes 18f 91-3 f Free Kick 7.11 03:57.7
1-Apr WON 6Randwick ChippingNorton a10f 911-2 Dickens 8.6 02:15.7
8-Apr 2ND 6Randwick Autumn Stakes 12f 94-7 f Benvolo 9.0 02:36.2
12-Apr 4th 5Randwick CumberlandSks 14f 97-4 Playboy 8.4 03:02.5
15-Apr 4th 5Randwick AJC Plate 18f 99-4= Hurry Up 9.1 04:03.7

1950-51  At FIVE YEARS  1 start 0 wins 0 seconds 1 third
17-Feb 3RD 6Caulfield St.George Sks 9f 9.2 40-1 Comic Court 9.2 01:51.5
 

As a sire Carbon Copy got Grand Print, winner of the 1962 Sydney Cup and 1964 Australian Cup.  He also got Fair's Print, the 1965 Perth Cup winner.



« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-14, 12:58 PM by tontonan »

Offline tontonan

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« 2017-Feb-18, 09:12 PM Reply #1307 »
Russia will take a little time.  I have his record up until the end of his 7YO season but he makes more comeback than Melba. 
I can post what I have if you want to chase it.   I am kind or preoccupied with the 1980's at present and don't know when I'll get around to it.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2017-Feb-18, 10:22 PM Reply #1308 »
Oh dear. not this again. :(

They came looking for me with teeth bared last time Bernborough's status was discussed.

In fact  all Queenslander's should be barred from a fair dinkum discussion due to bias. :bye:

If Greg Inglis, Jeff Thompson, Alan Border and a heap of others are famous Queenslanders, then Bernborough and Gunsynd were NSW horses  ;)

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2017-Feb-18, 10:23 PM Reply #1309 »
Thanks for the info on Proud Miss Tonto - haven't visited this thread for a while  :shy:

Offline tontonan

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« 2017-Feb-18, 11:13 PM Reply #1310 »
No problem.  The thing that strikes me about Proud Miss is that the Slipper was her 12th race start.  By the end of the VRC carnival in the first week of November she had already had 8 starts and won 7 in a row !  No wonder she was such a sensation.

Juvenile racing started in Adelaide in August.  As I say she was precocious, very forward for a bub but she did not grow much and it was inevitable that when the horses did grow up they would catch her. 

It was unusual even in those days for a youngster to be raced so much so early.  It was very common for the juveniles to have spring campaigns but they might have 2 or 3 runs.  Tulloch had five.   But 8 is really out there.  She was tough. 


Offline pwa54

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« 2017-Feb-19, 08:50 AM Reply #1311 »
Warwick Hobson's book on the Golden Slipper has a description of Proud Miss' 2nd place in the Golden Slipper. She raced away like "a scalded cat" but April Wonder kept pace with her and "brought about her undoing as Proud Miss who liked to lead was given no peace". She fought off challenges in the straight until Birthday Card swooped and won by two lengths in a race run at "a hectic pace" equalling Todman's race record.

One which was unplaced was Bogan Road which was Ken Callander's favourite horse when Ken was young. Bogan Road got the Champagne Stakes and Sires' Produce.

Tontonan, thanks for putting up Carbon Copy and Chicquita. Both had great records. I'll do Russia over the next few weeks. He had another 8 starts as an 8yo after a short season at stud, winning 3 of them. His last race was in Carbon Copy's 1949 AJC Plate. He got 22½ wins from 89 starts.

One little fact that was surprising was that according to an old copy of the Daily Telegraph Sports Yearbook, up to 1950 the biggest earnings in a single season in Australia was the £22,505 won by Columnist in 1947-48.


Offline tontonan

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« 2017-Feb-19, 02:02 PM Reply #1312 »
One little fact that was surprising was that according to an old copy of the Daily Telegraph Sports Yearbook, up to 1950 the biggest earnings in a single season in Australia was the £22,505 won by Columnist in 1947-48.


That is surprising. 

Columnist certainly had a great season with 10 wins from 20 starts and his biggest paydays appear to have been the Caulfield Cup (£5000 to the winner) and the STC Cup (£3500 to the winner).  That Rosehill race was surprising in itself, worth £5000 and held on the last day of the season, 31 July.  By comparison the WFA races were more modestly staked.  The Caulfield Stakes was worth £1500.  The Fisher Plate £2000.  (note : Columnist didn't contest it but FYI the Cox Plate was worth £1700).

On my blog I have given honours for the 1947-48 season to Shannon ahead of Columnist but I must admit when I gave those gongs I was 'cheating' a bit.  I didn't have as many records as I do now and I was interested in ensuring that all the Hall of Fame horses were featured (because I had their records) .  Shannon only had 4 starts in Australia during the 1947-8 season followed by 19 starts in the USA during 1948 in American ownership.  It is certainly debatable whether Shannon's American career should count in terms of Australian HOTY honours and whether Columnist should be recognized as the HOTY in Australia in 1947-48.

That is not the only year where I have cheated.  My charts were always provisional and subject to change.  They have improved over time but they could still be refined further. 

Offline pwa54

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« 2017-Feb-19, 03:38 PM Reply #1313 »
That's the only place I've seen that figure. His second places that season included the Sydney Cup, AJC Plate and Lloyd Stakes and he was third in the Epsom, Craven Plate and MacKinnon Stakes which would have added some useful change. He also had the Alister Clark won when he fell on the turn. His Williamstown Cup was worth £2125 to the winner and jockey Harold Badger said after that victory he was the best horse he had ridden and Badger was Ajax' regular jockey. His record was on the old Miller's Guide site which I think can now be accessed at http://millersguide.identika.com.au/past-champions/ although there it adds up to 17/9½/7 rather than 17/9/8 and old press reports had him with more starts (59 or 60) and a couple more seconds as Miller's Guide missed his Autumn 1949 starts.

Your Horse of the Year blog deserves to be far better known. There are a number of selections where I've thought, nah not that one, then had a closer look and I thought you were spot on.
« Last Edit: 2017-Feb-19, 04:06 PM by pwa54 »

Offline tontonan

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« 2017-Feb-19, 07:28 PM Reply #1314 »
PWA,

You have made my day - more than that.  I thought the Miller's Guide Past Champions Index was lost to us forever !

In 2 minutes I was able resurrect the Miller's Guide index that is linked to the opening post of this thread.  All the links are working again and I am a happy man.

Please feel free to query any of my selections on the blog.  They certainly aren't set in stone and you would be doing me a service.  Feedback is invaluable.

I would like to know which selections you initially doubted, or still have your doubts about. 

I have mulled over Murray Stream and Attley and others like Alister and Iron Duke and Chanak from this era.  Selection doesn't get any easier.   It is much easier to select the top 10 than it is to select the top 100.  The bigger the collection gets the more other horses suggest themselves.   


Edit :  I wont lose the Miller's Guide data again.  I was able to download the entire site then strip it down to what I wanted to keep.
« Last Edit: 2017-Feb-20, 11:48 AM by tontonan »

Offline pwa54

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« 2017-Feb-20, 05:20 PM Reply #1315 »
Pleased that it was still there somewhere Tonto!

As you say, every time you research a bit further, another candidate appears. Here are a few horses, in chronological order, who were good performers, some of which might be worthwhile adding to the honour board. Perhaps Newminster (1873) although more for what he could have been but for the poisoning before the Derby. Sweetmeat (1875) got the 1879 Epsom plus a Craven Plate, Autumn Stakes and Randwick Plate in 1880 and was twice a placegetter in the Melbourne Cup, maybe just short of champion class. Carlyon (1884) was a seriously good horse well-placed by James White.

From the 1890s, Hopscotch (1890) was a versatile galloper with an Epsom, AJC All-Aged, Caulfield Stakes, Toorak Hcp, 2 Wycombe Stakes and an Autumn Stakes from 1895. Hova (1890) was also versatile, a Newmarket and Melbourne Stakes winner who ran Auraria to a neck in the 1895 Melbourne Cup. Battalion (1889) with 2 Melbourne Stakes, a Brisbane Cup, Autumn Stakes, Essendon Stakes etc and 18 wins out of 47 starts in Australia (2 wins from 9 starts in Britain as a 10 year old) was also a fine old campaigner. Of the three, Hova seemed the most highly regarded at the time.

I think Australian racing was at a low ebb in the early 1900s because of the depredations of the British and Indian buyers. The mare, Solution (1901), came out of New Zealand in 1906 and absolutely creamed some good horses in 5 spring races (Metropolitan, Craven Plate [Chelmsford Stakes], Caulfield Stakes and Melbourne Stakes) but other than those whose records are already listed, horses like Mooltan, Peru, Popinjay, Uncle Sam, Cider etc were good but I reckon some way short of champion status

Traquette (1911) with 15 wins from 40 starts, is an overlooked mare, highly regarded in her era, taking out the Caulfield Stakes, Melbourne Stakes, Memsie, C.M. Lloyd etc. Richmond Main (1916) only won 3 races with 2 other DHs (??) but he had undoubted class and his duels with Artilleryman would have been great to see.
 
The 1920s was a decade with some great horses. Harvest King (1918) won 3 successive King’s Plates plus races like the Melbourne Stakes and Australian Cup. He gets lost amongst the champions of that era. Rivoli (1919), with the AJC Derby, Melbourne Stakes, Craven Plate and Fisher Plate plus a Melbourne Cup 2nd was very good before injury ended his career as was Royal Charter (1921) who won 3 Herbert Power Handicaps and then in the spring of 1927 won the Caulfield Stakes, Memsie, October [Turnbull] and Underwood Stakes before breaking down.

According to many, Strephon (1925) was the best horse in the nation in the autumn of 1929. After taking the 1928 VRC Derby, he collected, in impressive style, the Chipping Norton Stakes, Cumberland Stakes, AJC Plate, AJC St Leger, VRC Governor's Plate, VRC King's Plate and the VRC St Leger. He won 10 of 13 in this country before a disastrous transplant to Britain.

Douglas M. Barrie rates Veilmond (1927) highly with the 2 St Legers and AJC Plate, Spring Stakes, King’s Plate etc. Amongst Allunga’s (1935) 12 wins and 2 DHs were 2 AJC Autumn Stakes, the 2 St Legers, the AJC Derby, an AJC Plate and Spring Stakes. Looking again at Yaralla (1938), there were several good wfa wins in the war years and the AJC Sires’ Produce victory was over the flying All Love. Both Allunga and Yaralla were very good. Murray Stream (1941) and Attley (1942) were troopers; Murray Stream had 2 Metropolitans and several other principal races amongst his 17 wins from 64 starts and Attley some fine handicap and wfa successes amongst his 20½ from 63 starts but perhaps both a little short of champion status but Columnist (1942) definitely deserves acknowledgement.

Flying Halo (1947) was at least the equal of San Domenico. Flying Halo won a couple of Underwood Stakes, a Caulfield Stakes and 2 Lloyd Stakes amongst his 24 wins. Caranna (1952) was overshadowed by Sailor’s Guide but had a good 1955-56 3yo season.

More recently, at least for my memory, Craftsman (1960) and Prince Grant (1962) were very good. If 5 G1s is a sign of a good horse, then the gelding Striking Force (1960) won a Doomben Cup, , the Metropolitan, the Chipping Norton and what are now the BMW and the Ranvet! But I don’t think anyone would consider him a champion.

More recently, if I remember correctly, Turf Monthly made Drawn (1982) its 1985-6 Horse of the Year for his 3 G1s so there are many differences of opinion out there!

Offline timw

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« 2017-Feb-20, 08:31 PM Reply #1316 »
Tontonan                        
                        
I recall your interest in leading stakewinners.                          
I started reviewing Gloaming's earnings which most seem to accept was £43,100.                          
This figure is supported by a race by race analysis at page 3 of the Referee (Sydney, NSW : 1886 - 1939) of Wednesday 3 June 1925 in an article on trove titled "GLOAMING'S WINNING RECORD EARNINGS NOW TOTAL £43,100 His Fastest Times at Various Distances (By "PILOT.")".                        
However another race by race analysis on trove at page 4 of The Sun (Sydney, NSW : 1910 - 1954) of Thursday 9 October 1924 titled "GLOAMING'S RECORD All His Winnings RECTIFIED FIGURES (By Poseidon)"covering up to start 62 out of a total of 67 starts has a number of differences.                        
                        
The eight differences up to start 62 are as follows                        
Start No.   Position   Date   Racename   Earnings - Page 3 of the Referee of Wed 3 June 1925      Earnings from page 4 of The Sun of Thursday 9 October 1924    Comment   
33   1st-2   10/02/1921.   Hawera Stakes    £430.00      £400.00   NZ Turf register not checked   
34   1st-2   26/02/1921.   Jackson Stakes    £425.00      £400.00   NZ Turf register not checked   
36   1st-7   30/10/1921.   Fielding Stakes    £500.00      £350.00   NZ Turf register not checked   
41   1st-2   2/02/1922.   Hawera Stakes    £430.00      £400.00   NZ Turf register not checked   
44   1st-3   30/03/1922.   North Island Challenge Stakes    £700.00      £600.00   NZ Turf register not checked   
60   1st-8   4/10/1924.   AJC Spring Stakes   £1,967.00   £1,967 includes £125 breeder's premium   £1,842.00   No evidence of breeder's premium payable in Aust Turf Register or newspaper reports   
61   1st-4   8/10/1924.   AJC Craven Plate   £2,354.00   £2,354 includes £150 breeder's premium   £2,204.00   While Aust Turf Register makes no mention of breeders premium the newspapers indicate a £150 breeder's premium was payable.    
62   1st-5   1/11/1924.   VRC Melbourne Stakes (later Mackinnon Stakes) (G1)   £1,123.00      £1,124.00   All records sighted suggest correct figure is £1,124 not £1,123.   
                        
Unfortunately NZ newspapers are light on detail so of not much use.                        
This is mere speculation but some of the differences might be due to the value of trophies and whether trophies are included.                         
The optimistic view is that Gloaming won £43,101.  Accepting that both writers would agree on the amounts for the last 5 starts (all in NZ) The Sun's total would be £42,491 although I think it is almost certainly understated by £150. Unless anyone else can help I will put it on my 'to do' list.                         

Offline tontonan

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« 2017-Feb-21, 12:08 AM Reply #1317 »
There is a third detailed newspaper account of Gloaming's earnings in the Launceston Examiner (and it looks like 'syndicated' copy and may well appear elsewhere).  It was published on the same day as the Sydney Sun's account of 9 October 1924 after the Craven Plate  but differs with that account on several (9 exactly) details, or 10 if you include the career total which the Examiner fixes at £39267 rather than the Sun's £38982 - a  difference of £285.

Both of these accounts differ with Pilot's account in the Referee which has Gloaming's earnings after the Craven Plate as  £37787.

It is interesting to note that the Examiner begins its account as follows -

"By his win In the Craven Plate at
Randwick yesterday Gloaming has es
tablished a clean lead as the greatest
stake winner of the Australasian turf.
Up to yesterday Gloaming had won
£37,038, and the first prize  in tho Cra
ven Plato was worth £2100 in addition
to the  sweepstakes, which would probably
amount to £129. This would bring his
total winnings to £39,207."

It is curious because -

(a) the first prize in the Craven Plate was £2,100 (£600 second  £300 third) plus sweepstakes
(b) the difference between £39207 and £37038 is 2169 - suggesting the sweepstakes were worth £69 - but the Examiner claims they were 'probably £129'
(c) this is even more confusing because in the Examiner's race by race account they credit Gloaming with £2223 - a further £54 more, which close to the sweepstakes discrepancy but still £6 shy. 
(d) and apart from nit picking their accounting the Examiner's admission that the sweepstakes were probably £129 cuts to the heart of the problem of verifying prizemoney in those days - accounting for the added money is not a problem but accounting the sweepstakes is.
(e) the Examiner does not credit the horse's winnings with the £150 breeders subsidy (which is confirmed by the following Referee report )

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article136615499

And those are just the issues with one race !

Comparing the three separate newspaper accounts of Gloaming's winnings I have found no less than 14 different discrepancies in the race by race details and yet in 13 instances two of the sources agree.  The only race where all three sources disagree is the 1924 Craven Plate.  The seven discrepancies you listed have the Examiner agreeing with the Sun.  There are six other discrepasncies where the Examiner disagrees with both the Sun and the Referee :

1.  AJC Derby : The Examiner only credits Gloaming with the £4474 added money for the winner.  The value of the considerable sweepstakes and the £250 breeders subsidy is not included.  The SUn and the Referee include the value of the breeders subsidy but NOT the sweepstakes.
2. Wanganui Guineas : The Examiner credits £400, the others £390
3. 1919 Champion Sks :  The Examiner credits £850, the others £700
4. 1921 Jackson Sks :  The Examiner credits £500, the others £400
5. 1922 CJC Challenge : The Examiner credits £700, the others £800
6. 1924 NI Challenge : The Examiner credits £700, the others £800

In the instance of the 1918 Champion Sks The Examiner agrees with the Referee's credit of £650 rather than The Sun's £800.

Finally The Sun claims  discrepancies originate in the account of Mrs Greenwood  that 'she had credited him with £500  instead of £350 for winning the Fielding Stakes, £430 instead of £400 for the Hawera. Stakes, both at six years, and £250, instead of £200 for second money in the Chelmsford Stakes at seven years.'

Pilot in the The Referee correctly identifies that the 1924 AJC breeders subsidies have been overlooked.  Pilot also claims that the NZ custom of crediting third money to the winner in a two horse race is a source of discrepancy and again he has a point.  Gloaming had 5 starts in races against a solitary opponent (previous to the 1924 Craven Plate) and four of them are races where there is a discrepancy between the accounts.  He had two further races against one opponent as a 9 year old.

The Examiner notes the the difficulty in ascertaining place money in New Zealand and asterisks five races noting the value of trophies are included in the prize.  One is the Champion Stakes where the Examiner credits Gloaming with £800 while the other two papers only credit him with £650, and again the following season The Examiner credits Gloaming with £850 while the other two papers only credit him with £700.

Personally I do not believe that we can ever certainly establish Gloaming's earnings or the earnings of any other horse in the sweepstakes era. All we can do is try to narrow the corridor of uncertainty. 


 
« Last Edit: 2017-Feb-21, 12:10 AM by tontonan »

Offline tontonan

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« 2017-Feb-21, 01:56 PM Reply #1318 »
Some details still to come....

COLUMNIST

1942 chestnut horse

Genetout FR - Pen Name (2-g)
Owned by Frank Packer
Trained by

53 starts  17 wins  9 seconds  8 thirds   £ 

1944-45 At TWO YEARS
11Nov 4th 7 Moorefield Juvenile Stakes 5f 8.5 15-1 Gold Cascade 8.5 1:03.7
25Nov 12th 15 Randwick Juvenile Stakes 5f 8.5 33-1 Lucky Stream 8.0 1:02.2
24Mar 4th 23 Randwick Fairfield Hcp 6f 7.4 100/1 Jamelle 8.7 1:13.2
7-Apr 5th 22 Randwick Fernhill Hcp 8f 7.8 7-1= Souvenir 7.4 1:46.7
5-May 2ND 23 Warwick Farm 2yo Novice Hcp a6f 8.3 7-1 Sajakeda 8.7 1:14.0

1945-46 At THREE YEARS
25-Aug 4th 15 Randwick 3yo Hcp a8f 7.1 -- Deliverance 8.1 1:41.2
22-Sep WON 14 Rosehill 3yo Hcp 9f 7.2 9-4 * Ruawalla 7.0 1:53.0
29-Sep 5th 13 Randwick AJC Derby 12f 8.10 -- Magnificent 8.10 2:36.7
6-Oct 3RD 11 Randwick Clibborn Stakes 10f 8.0 9-2 Chaytor 9.0 2:05.0
22-Dec WON 11 Randwick 3yo Hcp a8f 8.2 9-4 * Edinburgh 8.5 1:39.0
5-Jan Unpl 7 Moorefield Peter Moore Hcp 8f 6.12 4-1 Wellington 7.12 1:41.0
19-Jan 2ND 12 Rosehill Lord Mayor's Cup 10f 7.0 7-2 * War Eagle 8.2 2:05.0
28-Jan 4th 7 Randwick Anniversary Hcp a12f 7.2 11-2 Grand Fils 7.7 2:34.0
4-May WON 16 Randwick 3yo Hcp a7f 8.12 12-1 Deliverance 8.12 1:26.7
18May WON 13 Randwick Welter Hcp a8f 8.13 3-1 * Laudus 8.0 1:39.0
8-Jun WON 7 Warw Farm George's River Hcp a8f 8.7 9-2 Silent 8.5 1:39.0

1946-47 At FOUR YEARS
21-Sep Unpl 14 M. Valley Underwood Stakes 8f 9.0 25-1 Attley 9.0 1:38.0
5-Oct 3RD 13 Flemington Melbourne Stakes 8f 9.0 50-1 Bernborough 9.8 1:37.5
12-Oct 2ND 9 Caulfield Caulfield Stakes 9f 9.0 25-1 Bernborough 9.4 1:59.0
19-Oct 2ND 27 Caulfield Caulfield Cup 12f 7.13 7-1 Royal Gem 9.0 2:30.2
1-Feb =2ND 11 Moorefield Flying Hcp 6f 9.6 6-1 Yankee Lad 7.0 1:15.0
8-Feb 2ND 9 Randwick Glenfield Hcp a7f 9.7 2-1 f Earl Pentheus 7.4 1:25.0
22Mar WON 9 Rosehill Rawson Stakes 9f 9.0 2-1 f Sweet Chime 8.1 1:52.0
5-Apr 12th 24 Randwick Doncaster Hcp 8f 9.0 7-1 Blue Legend 8.11 1:41.7
7-Apr 4th 18 Randwick Sydney Cup 16f 9.0 33-1 Proctor 7.10 3:27.5
9-Apr 5th 6 Randwick All Aged Stakes 8f 9.0 4-1 Victory Lad 9.1 1:37.0

1947-48 At FIVE YEARS
30-Aug 2ND 17 Randwick Campbelltown Hcp 6f 9.2 6-1 Puffham 8.10 1:13.0
20-Sep WON 7 Rosehill Hill Stakes 8½f 9.4 5-4 f Puffham 9.1 1:45.2
4-Oct 3RD 21 Randwick Epsom Hcp 8f 8.10 5-2 f Titanic 7.5 1:37.7
8-Oct 3RD 3 Randwick Craven Plate 10f 9.4 9-2 Russia 9.4 2:02.5
15-Oct WON 11 Caulfield Caulfield Stakes 9f 9.4 7-1 Don Pedro 9.4 1:49.7
18-Oct WON 28 Caulfield Caulfield Cup 12f 9.0 9-2 f Hiraji 8.3 2:28.2
1-Nov 3RD 9 Flemington Mackinnon Stakes 10f 9.3 11/8f Don Pedro 9.3 2:02.5
6-Nov WON 8 Flemington Linlithgow Stakes 8f 9.2 11-4 Royal Gem 9.2 1:38.0
8-Nov WON 7 Flemington Fisher Plate 12f 9.4 7-4 f Russia 9.5 2:30.2
15-Nov WON 15 Flemington Williamstown Cup a13f 9.7 7-4 f Fine Fettle 8.0 2:42.0
21-Feb 8th 12 Caulfield Futurity Stakes 7f 10.7 5-1 Royal Gem 10.2 1:24.2
6-Mar 2ND 6 Flemington Lloyd Stakes 8f 9.1 4-1 Money Moon 9.0 1:37.5
13-Mar WON 5 Rosehill Rawson Stakes 9f 9.2 6-4= Crusader 8.13 1:51.0
20-Mar 8th 9 Randwick Chipping Norton 10f 9.2 4-5 f Fresh Boy 8.4 2:04.5
27-Mar WON 8 Randwick Autumn Stakes 12f 9.3 9-4 f Silent 9.0 2:35.5
29-Mar 2ND 20 Randwick Sydney Cup 16f 9.7 8-1 Dark Marne 8.3 3:26.2
3-Apr 2ND 4 Randwick AJC Plate 18f 9.4 9/10f Russia 9.4 3:50.7
26-Apr FELL 13 M. Valley Alister Clark 10f 9.3 6-1 Money Moon 8.10 2:07.7
3-Jul WON 20 Randwick Moore Park Hcp a7f 10.2 7-4 f Respond 7.9 1:28.0
31-Jul WON 12 Rosehill Rosehill Cup 12f 9.7 1-1 f Cromides 8.0 2:30.7

1948-49 At SIX YEARS
11-Sep 6th 7 Randwick Chelmsford Stakes a9f 9.11 8/11f Bernbrook 7.9 1:52.5
25-Sep 3RD 11 Rosehill Gosper Hcp 7f 9.5 5-4 f Rio Fe 7.3 1:25.0
2-Oct 3RD 6 Randwick Colin Stephen a12f 9.6 7-4= Dark Marne 9.2 2:30.7
23-Oct 6th 9 M. Valley Cox Plate 10f 9.4 11-2 Carbon Copy 7.12 2:04.2
4-Nov 7th 8 Flemington Linlithgow Stakes 8f 9.2 10-1 Phoibos 8.0 1:36.2

1949-50 At SEVEN YEARS
3-Sep 7th 12 Canterbury Canterbury Stakes 6f 9.2 25-1 Bernbrook 9.0 1:14.0
« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-14, 01:07 PM by tontonan »

Offline timw

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« 2017-Feb-22, 04:54 PM Reply #1319 »
Re Gloaming's earnings - Tontonan - one of these days I hope to go thru all the New Zealand Turf Registers together with your info to see if I can narrow down the differences.  On the other hand why would anyone quibble with Mrs Greenwood if she was banking the cheques. 

On a different note The Age today published an obituary on the life of James Merralls QC AO.  His achievements include "Another consuming interest, outside the law, was in bloodstock and the breeding of thoroughbreds.  He bred a number of winners, among them Beer Street who won ....  For more than a decade, he was also the Australian correspondent for British Racehorse writing as "Tim Whiffler" the horse that one the Melbourne Cup in 1867."   


Offline tontonan

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« 2017-Feb-22, 08:41 PM Reply #1320 »
I don't think you will do much better than 'Pilot' (who consulted the NZ Turf Registers)  or Mrs Greenwood (who banked the cheques) although Pilot did have a point about the breeding subsidies.  Mrs Greenwood wouldn't have banked those.   My point regarding the uncertain value of the sweepstakes stands but they would have been included in Mrs Greenwood's banking.  The value of trophies would not.  Its tricky.


There were so many Tim Whiffler's - but only one James Merralls.  He was very much a Melburnian and not the Tim Whiffler I knew from Ausrace who was from Sydney. 

Sydney 'Tim', Melbourne 'Tim', I think we have been here before...



Offline tontonan

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« 2017-Feb-22, 10:03 PM Reply #1321 »
 :sleep:
« Last Edit: 2017-Feb-24, 01:46 AM by tontonan »

Offline timw

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« 2017-Feb-26, 04:09 PM Reply #1322 »
I have updated Winx record.

Offline tontonan

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« 2017-Feb-26, 10:13 PM Reply #1323 »
Timw,

 I will leave updating Winx to you.  I have updated the Winning Streaks table and added a link to the index.

I am thinking of revisiting the Prizemoney record table and linking that up to the Index as well.

Offline pwa54

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« 2017-Feb-27, 06:23 PM Reply #1324 »


STREPHON (1925) by Saltash from Soldier’s Love

14 starts in Australia 11/1/- - went to England in mid-1929 and raced unsuccessfully as Strephon II

2yo 1 -/-/-/

Unpl – 22/2/1928 Moonee Valley Mernda Hcp 5¼ furlongs, 7st 5lb (allowed 7lbs) (R. Howes), 1st Remarmy (7st 5lb) 1min 5¾sec, 1½ lengths

3yo 13 11/1/-

1st – 8/9/1928 Aspendale Park Three Year-old Hcp 7½ furlongs, 7st 7lb (allowed 4lbs) (R. Howes), 2nd Donalbain (6st 8lb), 1min 33¼sec, 6 lengths
1st – 6/10/1928 Flemington VRC Stand Hcp 10 furlongs, 7st 3lb (R. Howes), 2nd Alfred the Great (7st 9lb), 2min 7¾sec, ¾ length
Unpl – 20/10/1928 Caulfield Guineas 1 mile, 8st 5lb (R. Howes), 1st Balmerino (8st 5lb) [3rd Merab; this was the race where Mollison was clearly 3rd] 1min 39¾, short half-head
1st – 17/10/1928 Caulfield Herbert Power Stakes 11 furlongs, 7st 2lb (R. Howes), 2nd Maple (8st 13lb), 2min 20sec, won easily 2½ lengths
1st – 3/11/1928 Flemington VRC Derby mile and a half, 8st 10lb (J. Pike), 2nd Yodelist (8st 10lb), 3rd Balmerino (8st 10lb), 2min 33sec, 3½ lengths, 3 lengths
2nd – 6/11/1928 Flemington Melbourne Cup 2 miles, 7st 6lb (R. Howes), 1st Statesman (8st), 3rd Demost (6st 12lb), 3min 23½sec, 4 lengths, 3 lengths
1st – 2/3/1929 Flemington VRC St Leger 14 furlongs, 8st 10lb (J. Pike), 2nd Prince Don (8st 10lb), 3rd Balmerino (8st 10lb), 2min 50½sec, 5 lengths, 4 lengths
1st – 7/3/1929 Flemington VRC Governor’s Plate mile and a half, 8st 2lb (R. Howes, 2nd Maple (9st), 2min 40½sec, 2 lengths
1st – 9/3/1929 Flemington VRC King’s Plate 2 miles, 8st (R. Howes), 2nd Black Duchess (8st 11lb), 3rd Maple (8st 1lb), 3min 25¼sec, 5 lengths, 12 lengths
1st – 23/3/1929 Warwick Farm Chipping Norton Stakes 10 furlongs, 8st 11lb (J. Pike), 2nd Limerick (9st 6lb), Winalot (9st 7lb), 2min 7sec, 1½ lengths, ½ length
1st – 30/3/1929 Randwick AJC St Leger 14 furlongs, 8st 10lb (J. Pike), 2nd Oatendale (8st 10lb), 3min 1¾sec, 5 lengths
1st – 3/4/1929 Randwick Cumberland Stakes 14 furlongs, 8st 4lb (J. Munro), 2nd Mondiaga (8st 11lb), 3min 24sec, cantered in by 10 lengths
1st – 6/4/1929 Randwick AJC Plate 2¼ miles, 8st 2lb (J. Pike), 2nd Black Duchess (8st 12lb), 3min 56sec, 15 lengths

How good was he in 1928-9? The Sporting Globe said “Grant Strephon the honour of being the grandest horse and finest stayer seen out during the 1928-9 season”. The Australasian’s season review, said that “as good as were Gothic and Mollison, they were overshadowed by Strephon, who was the champion 3yo of the season and outclassed the opposition in all the standard weight-for-age races in which he started”. “Musket” in the Sydney Mail compared him to Newhaven.

Looking at the horse of the year for 1928-9, weight-for-age form is interesting. Gothic got 7½ wins all in Melbourne and was clearly the horse of the spring. Strephon got 6 weight-for-age (3 in each state) plus his 3/3 classics and was dominant in the autumn. Limerick had a good early spring in Sydney and a total of 4½ victories at weight-for-age but none in Melbourne and he wasn’t his usual dominant self. Highland got 3 in the Melbourne spring, Mollison 2½ in all and Amounis just the 1 (but also the Epsom) and didn’t race in the autumn. From the perspective of 2017, Gothic’s spring achievements are superior to Strephon’s autumn; if the Melbourne Cup second had been reversed it would have been a different story.

Owner Sol Green, after a dispute over a steward’s ruling decided to send Strephon to England refusing sale offers in five figures. Strephon sailed for England on the Limerick, a coincidence that amused the racing world. The cost for the 6-7-week journey was surprisingly only £230 but he was a failure in England, really an abject failure ending his racing days as a hurdler in 1934 and not winning a single race over there. Sol Green eventually sold him for £200.

One interesting “what might have been” is how Strephon would have matched up against Phar Lap in 1929-1930? The Sporting Globe polled racing experts to compare their 3yo seasons in April 1930 and most experts (but not all) went narrowly for Phar Lap. If Strephon had trained on, he would have followed Phar Lap home.
« Last Edit: 2017-Feb-28, 12:04 AM by tontonan »


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