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Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-May-24, 01:58 PM Reply #1725 »
PP, I remember Baguette coming on the scene and so soon after Vain. 2 champion 2yos in quick succession!

If you can lay your hands on a copy, Warwick Hobson's The Story of the Golden Slipper published in 1984 is a great read with several pages and race descriptions on each of the Slippers and focusing on the winners and their careers.

On the surface it looks like he had similar ideas to Ross McDonald and Weekend Hussler in that he tried to find out how far the horse could go.

It is an interesting subject in itself i.e. how the good 2 and 3 year olds went when the trainers tried them over a bit of distance.

Apart from Baguette and Weekend Hussler, there are stories around horses like Manikato - he would have been deemed a failure when running 4th in the Rosehill Guineas but in fact he ran into what was probably one of the strongest 3YO set weights races ever - Dulcify won the race and there would have been horses like Double Century, Scomeld and Kapalaran in the race. In most years he would have won I reckon.

And what about Todman. First time they put him out to 7 furlongs he runs into Tulloch!! He won the Canterbury Guineas later on.

Luskin Star was transferred to Bart Cummings who built him up to run in the Cox Plate as a 3yo - having won the Caulfield Guineas. But he ran into a strong field (think Family Of Man won the race that year) and it was probably a bit too far for him.

Horses like Bounding Away, Mahogany and Shoot Out were outside their comfort zones over a mile and a half but their class and the fact it was set weights got them over the line.

Winx was tried over a mile and a half in the Qld Oaks and bolted in but they have never revisited the distance - probably the only race they would want to try is the Tancred but it is not a suitable race for a horse aiming for the QE2.

Offline pwa54

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« 2018-May-25, 12:52 PM Reply #1726 »
From Warwick Hobson's book relating to Baguette's preparation for the Slipper:

The press criticised trainer Fil Allotta for being too easy on Baguette for giving the colt only one race in his pre-Slipper program. He was 3 months on his summer spell and then came the surprise appearance and easy win against moderate older horses in the midweek Tempe Flying Welter at a Canterbury meeting. Baguette was set on ice for 5 weeks before the Slipper.

The reason was that Baguette was a handful, very highly strung, and Allotta was worried that he would injure himself in a race.

In the Slipper, Baguette barrelled Royal Show in the straight and the subsequent protest saw several heated exchanges between George Moore and Tommy Smith before the protest was dismissed.

Baguette was the first horse to win the 2yo "Triple Crown" but Warwick Hobson believed it was a serious error to train a Rego horse for the AJC Derby plus he only seemed to perform at his best when George Moore was on him. It was also a mistake to return him in the autumn of his 4yo career, after he was syndicated to stud, where he was sluggish and failed to win in his last 6 starts.

PP, it looks as though, unlike some of the other examples you give, that Baguette shouldn't have been tried much beyond the mile.

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2018-May-25, 01:03 PM Reply #1727 »

In the Slipper, Baguette barrelled Royal Show in the straight and the subsequent protest saw several heated exchanges between George Moore and Tommy Smith before the protest was dismissed.

I was there that day and backed both: Baguette straight out and Royal Show each way.

No matter which way the protest went my financial result was the same.

I had fingers crossed that Baguette would retain the race.

Offline pwa54

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« 2018-May-25, 04:07 PM Reply #1728 »
JWH, from reading the account, it seems like Baguette might have been a bit lucky to have the protest dismissed.

Offline pwa54

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« 2018-May-25, 04:21 PM Reply #1729 »
Here's Greenline's full record. He was an amazing weight-carrier. From 4 years onwards, weights over 10 stone (63.5kgs) were almost a given for him in handicaps and there were many races where he was at least a stone (6.5kgs) heavier than the second topweight. As Tontonan, mentioned earlier, the lack of weight-for-age races for sprinters means that their records don't look that good today. He was always a favourite with punters because of his gameness and the big weights.

Note : I believe Greenline had a tail but it was cropped by some cruel newspaper sub editor. - Tontonan
1924 brown horse
( Greenstead - Ayrline )
82 starts for 13 wins, 16 seconds and 7½ thirds

2yo 1926-27
7 starts 2/1/-

1st – 20/11/1926 AJC Nursery 5f, 7st 11lb, 2nd Chromium (7st 12lb), 1min 2½sec, length
2nd – 4/12/1926 W.F. Kirkham Stakes 5f, 8st 7lb, 1st Beckwith (9st 3lb), 1min 7¾sec, neck, 1½ lengths
1st – 27/12/1926 AJC December Stakes 5f, 8st 7lb, 2nd Black Duchess (8st 5lb), 1min 3sec, ¾ length
Unpl – 2/4/1927 Rosehill Nursery Handicap (First Division) 6f, 9st 4lb (topweight), 1st Black Duchess (8st 5lb), 1min 14½sec
Unpl – 9/4/1927 Warwick Farm Fairfield Hcp (First Division) 6f, 9st 1lb, 1st Greenwich (8st), 1min 14½sec
Unpl – 18/4/1927 AJC Sires’ Produce 7f, 8st 10lb, 1st Royal Feast (8st 10lb), 1min 32sec
Unpl – 26/4/1927 AJC Champagne Stakes 6f, 9st 3lb, 1st Cannon (8st 7lb), 2nd Royal Feast (9st 6lb), 3rd Trivalve (8st 10lb), 1min 13½sec

3yo 1927-28
13 starts 3/3/2

2nd – 27/8/1927 Rosehill 3&4-Year-Old (First Division) 6f, 8st 2lb, 1st Persuasion (9st 8lb), 1min 13¼sec, long head
Unpl – 3/9/1927 Warwick Farm Hobartville Stakes 8f, 8st 10lb, 1st Merry Mint (8st 10lb), 1min 27sec
2nd – 3/10/1927 A.J.C. Shorts 6f, 7st 8lb, 1st Calmest (8st 10lb), 1min 15½ sec, 2 lengths, 1½ lengths
Unpl – 8/10/1927 Chester Hcp 6f, 9st 12lb, 1st Whitta (9st 1lb), 1min 13sec
3rd – 15/10/1927 City Tatt’s Flying Handicap 6f, 8st 2lb, 1st Fuji San (10st 9lb), 1min 13sec, ¾ length, head
1st – 19/11/1927 A.J.C. Flying 6f, 8st 10lb, 2nd Quixotic (8st 2lb), 1min 12½sec, 2 lengths
Unpl – 31/12/1927 A.J.C. Carrington Stakes 6f, 8st 12lb, 1st Genuine (7st 5lb), 1min 13¼sec
1st – 21/1/1928 A.J.C. Challenge Stakes 6f, 8st 12lb, 2nd Vaals (9st 13lb), 1min 12¾sec, ½ head
2nd – 26/1/1928 A.J.C. Flying 6f, 9st, 1st Killarney (8st 3lb), 1min 11¼sec, ½ length
Unpl – 24/3/1928 Rosehill Railway Handicap (Second Division) 7f, 8st 9lb, 1st Vaals (9st 4lb), 1min 25¼sec
Unpl – 31/3/1928 Warwick Farm Liverpool Handicap 6f, 9st 4lb, 1st Bunkum (7st 6lb), 1min 13½sec
1st – 9/4/1928 A.J.C. Flying 6f, 9st, 2nd Kapoya (7st 1lb), 1min 15¾sec, 3 lengths
3rd – 11/4/1928 A.J.C. All-Aged Stakes, 8st 5lb, 1st Limerick (8st 11lb), 2nd Gothic (8st 12lb), 1min 39½sec, length, 3½ lengths

4yo 1928-29
13 starts 3/1/2

Unpl – 24/8/1928 Rosehill Dundas Hcp 6f, 1st Valparaiso (8st 4lb), 1min 26sec
Unpl – 8/9/1928 Tatt’s Tramway Hcp 7f, 9st 5lb, 1st Amounis (9st 4lb), 1min 24¼ sec
3rd – 15/9/1928 Rosehill Hill Stakes 8f, 8st 11lb, 1st Limerick (9st 7lb), 1min 39sec, 2 lengths, 4 lengths
1st – 1/10/1928 A.J.C. Shorts 6f, 9st 7lb, 2nd Violian (7st 8lb), 3rd Fujisan (10st 5lb), 1min 10¾sec, ½ head, 1½ lengths
2nd – 26/12/1928 A.J.C. Chisholm Hcp 6f ,10st 6lb, 1st Whitta (8st 9lb), 1min 11½ sec, 1½ lengths, length
1st – 29/12/1928 Tatt’s Carrington Stakes 6f, 9st 13lb, 2nd Whitta (8st 2lb), 1min 12sec, neck
Unpl – 9/2/1929 Williamstown C.F. Orr Stakes 8f, 9st 7lb, 1st Gothic (9st 11lb), 1min 40sec
Unpl – 16/2/1929 Oakleigh Plate 5½f, 10st 5lb, 1st Day Dreamer (7st 8lb), 1min 9¾sec
3rd – 23/2/1929 Caulfield Futurity 7f, 10st 3lb, 1st Mollison (9st 3lb), 2nd Gothic (10st 7lb), 1min 26¼sec, 1½ lengths, ½ head
Unpl – 2/3/1929 Newmarket Handicap 6f, 9st 13lb, 1st St Ardent (7st 4lb), 1min 10¾sec
1st – 9/3/1929 V.R.C. Leonard Stakes 6f, 9st 13lb, 2nd Figure (8st 9lb), 1min 11¼sec, 2½ lengths
Unpl – 1/4/1929 AJC Flying Stakes 6f, 10st 7lb, 1st Margarethal (8st 7lb [2nd topweight]), 1min 12sec
Unpl – 3/4/1929 AJC All-Aged Stakes 8f, 8st 11lb, 1st Mollison (8st 5lb), 2nd Limerick (8st 10lb), 1min 45½sec

5yo 1929-30
11 starts 3/3/2

Unpl – 16/11/1929 AJC Flying Hcp 6f, 10st 6lb, 1st Bonnie Marjorie (7st 12lb), 1min 13sec
1st – 14/12/1929 Rosehill Flying Hcp (First Division) 7f, 10st 5lb, 2nd Raisin (8st 2lb), 1min 26sec, head
3rd – 28/12/1929 Carrington Stakes 6f, 10st 6lb, 1st Gay Ballerina (8st 2lb), 2nd Raisin (7st 9lb), 1min 12¾sec, ½ length, ¾ length
2nd – 25/1/1930 Moonee Valley William Reid Stakes 6f, 9st 7lb, 1st Figure (8st 4lb), 1min 13sec, 1½ lengths, 1¼ lengths
2nd - 22/2/1930 Caulfield Futurity 7f, 9st 13lb, 1st Amounis (10st 4lb), 1min 27¾sec, length
1st – 1/3/1930 Newmarket Hcp 6f, 10st 2lb, 2nd Birdcage (7st 9lb), 1min 12¼sec, ¾ length
2nd – 6/3/1930 V.R.C. C.M. Lloyd Stakes 8f, 8st 12lb, 1st Amounis (8st 12lb), 1min 38½sec, length, ½ length
1st – 5/4/1930 Rosehill Railway Hcp 7f (First Division), 10st 11lb, 2nd Venetian Lady (8st 11lb), 1min 26¾sec, ½ length
Unpl – 19/4/1930 Doncaster Handicap 8f, 10st 2lb, 1st Venetian Lady (8st 5lb), 1min 37sec
Unpl – 21/4/1930 La Perouse Handicap 6f, 10st 13lb, 1st High Disdain (8st 7lb), 1min 11½sec
3rd – 23/4/1930 A.J.C. All-Aged 8f, 8st 12lb, 1st Amounis (8st 12lb), 2nd Nightmarch (9st), 1min 37sec, length, ¾ length

6yo 1930-31
12 starts -/2/-

Unpl – 13/12/1930 Rosehill Dundas Hcp 7f, 10st 10lb, 1st Pavilion (8st 4lb), 1min 25½sec
Unpl – 27/12/1930 Tatt’s Carrington Stakes 6f, 10st 11lb, 1st Pavilion (8st 5lb), 1min 10¼sec
2nd – 24/1/1931 Moonee Valley William Reid Stakes 6f, 9st 7lb, 1st Mystic Peak (9st 1lb), 1min 14½sec, ½ neck
Unpl – 7/2/1931 Williamstown C. F. Orr Stakes 8f, 9st 8lb, 1st Byron (8st 2lb), 1min 40 sec
2nd – 14/2/1931 Oakleigh Plate 5½f, 10st 8lb, 1st First Arrow (7st 13lb), 1min 6½sec, neck
Unpl – 21/2/1931 Caulfield Futurity Stakes 7f, 9st 8lb, 1st Phar Lap (10st 3lb), 1min 27¼sec, neck
Unpl – 28/2/1931 Newmarket Hcp 6f, 10st 7lb, 1st Parkwood (8st 13lb), 1min 13½sec
Unpl –7/3/1931 Leonard Stakes 6f, 10st 7lb, 1st Killarney (8st 12lb), 2nd Mollison (9st 13lb), 1min 13sec
Unpl – 28/3/1931 Warwick Farm Liverpool Farm Hcp 6f, 10st 7lb, 1st Casque d’Or (8st 9lb), 1min 12sec
Unpl – 18/4/1931 Tatt’s Denman Stakes 6f, 10st 5lb, 1st Anchor (7st 2lb), 1min 12sec
Unpl – 16/5/1931 Tatt’s Flying 6f, 10st 3lb, 1st Anchor (8st 2lb), 1min 12½sec
Unpl – 8/6/1931 AJC June Stakes, 10st 1lb, 1st Greensea (8st 12lb), 1min 11¾sec

7yo 1931-32
13 starts 2/3/1

2nd – 14/11/1931 A.J.C. Flying 6f, 9st 13lb, 1st Burracootboo (8st 6lb), 1min 12¼sec, 2½ lengths
Unpl – 26/12/1931 AJC Chisholm Hcp 6f, 10st 8lb, 1st High Disdain (9st 12lb), 1min 12sec
1st – 30/12/1931 Carrington Stakes 6f, 10st 5lb, 2nd Old Ming (7st 5lb), 1min 12½sec, neck
2nd – 23/1/1932 Moonee Valley William Reid Stakes 6f, 9st 10lb, 1st Middle Watch (7st 13lb), 1min 14¼sec, ½ neck
1st – 6/2/1932 Williamstown C.F. Orr Stakes 8f, 9st 8lb, 1min 41sec, 2nd Rondalina (7st 6lb), 1min 41½sec, ½ head
Unpl – 20/2/1932 VATC Futurity Stakes 7f, 10st 4lb, 1st Aamon Ra (9st 3lb), 1min 25¾sec
3rd – 27/2/1932 VRC Newmarket 6f, 10st 6lb, 1st Lady Linden (8st 4lb), 2nd Winooka (8st 2lb), 1min 12sec, ½ length, length
2nd – 5/3/1932 V.R.C. Leonard Stakes 6f, 10st 9lb, 1st Dominant (8st 3lb), 1min 10¾sec, ½ neck
Unpl – 14/3/1932 Moonee Valley Quality Hcp 6f, 9st, 1st Umbertana (7st 5lb), 1min 12½sec
Unpl – 28/3/1932 Randwick La Perouse Hcp 6f, 10st 10lb, 1st Holdfast (9st 6lb), 1min 13¼sec
Unpl – 30/3/1932 All-Aged Stakes 8f, 8st 12lb, 1st Viol d’Amour (8st 6lb), 2nd Waterline (8st 12lb), 3rd Winooka (8st 6lb), 1min 38sec
Unpl – 14/5/1932 AJC Flying Hcp 6f, 10st 9lb, 1st Orby Anthus (7st 12lb), 1min 11¾sec
Unpl – 6/6/1932 June Stakes 6f, 10st 9lb, 1st Sir Duninald (8st 12lb), 1min 12¼sec

8yo 1932-33
10 starts -/2/½

=3rd – 28/1/1933 Moonee Valley William Reid Stakes 6f, 9st 10lb, 1st Waltzing Lily (7st 11lb), 1½ lengths, 1¾ lengths
Unpl – 18/2/1933 Oakleigh Plate 5½f, 10st 3lb, 1st Ibrani (7st 13lb), 2nd Winooka (9st 9lb), 1min 4¾sec
Unpl – 25/2/1933 Caulfield Futurity Stakes 9st 13lb, 1st Winooka (9st), 1min 24¼sec
Unpl – 4/3/33 Newmarket Handicap 6f, 10st 2lb, 1st Waltzing Lily (8st 9lb), 1min 13¼sec
Unpl – 11/3/1933 VRC Leonard Stakes 6f, 10st, 1st Winooka (10st), 1min 10¼sec
2nd – 17/4/1933 A.J.C. La Perouse Hcp 6f, 9st 6lb, 1st Autopay (9st 7lb), 1min 12sec, head, length
2nd – 22/4/1933 A.J.C. Cropper Plate 6f, 8st 11lb, 1st Winooka (9st), 1min 13¾sec, 5 lengths
Unpl – 13/5/1933 Tatt’s Flying 6f, 9st 11lb, 1st Kichaka (7st 1lb), 1min 13sec
Unpl – 5/6/1933 AJC June Stakes 6f, 9st 13lb, 1st Carefree (6st 11lb), 1min 10¾sec
Unpl – 10/6/1933 AJC Flying Hcp 6f, 9st 9lb, 1st Truesign (7st), 1min 15¼sec

9yo 1933-34
3 starts -/1/-

Unpl – 5/8/1933 Warwick Farm Denham Court Hcp 6f, 9st 7lb, 1st Vista (8st 6lb), 1min 12¾sec
2nd – 16/8/1933 Rosebery Flying Welter 6¼f, 11st, 1st Movie Star (9st 5lb), 1min 25½sec, 2 lengths, 1½ lengths
Unpl – 19/8/1933 Moorefield Mile, 9st 9lb, 1st Ranchero (8st 5lb). 1min 41¾sec
« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-02, 03:57 PM by tontonan »

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-May-25, 04:28 PM Reply #1730 »
His career started the year Phar Lap was born and ended after Phar Lap had died  :(

Offline tontonan

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« 2018-May-25, 04:39 PM Reply #1731 »
Thanks pwa.  Greenline's record is very interesting.

I wonder if part of the reason why the old time sprinters records appear inconsistent was that they had to have runs of defeats simply to moderate their handicap.   Or was it simply that once a horse is handicapped in the region of ten stone there simply isn't any room for error.  With lesser weights horses can overcome a degree of bad luck but when they are carrying 63+kg everything needs to go their way.

Offline pwa54

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« 2018-May-25, 05:30 PM Reply #1732 »
And he raced Phar Lap just the once, PP. Reading the account of the Futurity when researching Greenline, that really was a great victory by Phar Lap as he was left flat-footed at the barrier and raced 5-wide. It flattened him for the subsequent Lloyd Stakes, where he was 2nd, interrupting a sequence of 14 wins and prior to another 8 in a row.

Tonto, it does seem that some of the trainers and owners held them back if they were in the region of 10 stone in order to reduce their handicap, though Greenline seemed to be one of the more honestly ridden ones from the press reports. Everything had to go their way over 63+ unless you were a Bernborough. Backing sprinters in those days would have been a mug's game.

Greenline's 6yo record is not impressive but he carried more than 60kgs in all 12 starts.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-May-26, 05:22 AM Reply #1733 »
Greenline won the 1931 Carrington Stakes with 10 st 5 lb (145 lbs = 66 kg). Limit weight was 6 st 13 lbs (44 kg) i.e. he carried 22 kg above the limit.

If I was rating that race with the Don Scott method he would get approximately 85 kg for winning it which is more than what I give Winx.

Offline timw

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« 2018-May-27, 07:56 PM Reply #1734 »
Bronze of Alyshed and Chris McCarron at Lone Star Park, grand Praire, Texas USA

ALYSHEBA (USA) 1984                                       
Bay horse                                       
Alydar (USA) 1975 (Raise a Native (USA) 1961) - Bel Sheba (USA) 1970 (Lt Stevens (USA) 1961)                                       
26 starts, 11 wins (9 x G1), 8 seconds and 2 thirds.  Win % 42.3, Place % 80.8.                                        
Earnings USD 6,679,242                                       
On 5 November 1988 Alysheba passed John Henry's North American record career earnings record of USD 6,597,947, set 13 October 1984, on winning the Breeder's Cup Classic on 5 November 1988 taking his career eanings to USD 6,679,242 a North American record.  Alysheba retired after that race.                                       
Alysheba held the North American earnings record from 5 November 1988 until 27 March 1996 when he was passed by Cigar.                                       
RACING RECORD                                       
Earnings for each race appears at the end of each record where known.                                         
Margins shown are for first to third unless the horse ran fourth in which case the magins are shown for first to fourth.                                       
Odds where shown include the $1.00 stake unlike in the USA where only the dividend is shown.                                        
TWO YEARS: 1986  Starts 7: 1-4-1-1 for USD 359,486                                            
5th-7   21/07/1986.   0.5L x 1.25L   Hollywood Park, Los Angeles, CA, USA   Maiden Special Weight   5.5f.   1106m.   118lbs   53.5kg   1.05.0.   Fast, $3.40.   Fleeting Jet 118 1st   Biloxi Blues 118 2nd   
2nd-10   22/08/1986.   Hd x 3.25L   Arlington Park, Chicago, Illinois, USA   Maiden Special Weight   8f.   1609m.   120lbs   54.5kg   1.36.8.   Fast, $2.80.   Gem Master 120 1st   Contractor's Tun 120 3rd   
1st-12   14/09/1986.   8L x 0.5L   Turfway Park, Florence, KY, (near Cincinnati, Ohio) USA   Maiden Special Weight   8.5f.   1709m.   119lbs   54kg   1.46.4.   Fast, $1.30F.   Aerator 119 2nd   Najor Domo 119 3rd   
2nd-11   27/09/1986.   0.5L x 12L   Turfway Park, Florence, KY, (near Cincinnati, Ohio) USA   In Memoriam Stakes   8f.   1609m.   120lbs   54.5kg   1.37.2.   Good, $3.30F.   Rainbow East 120 1st   David L's Rib 120 3rd   
2nd-10   10/10/1986.   0.75L x 1.25L   Keeneland, Lexington, KY, USA   Breeders' Futurity   8.5f.   1709m.   121lbs   55kg   1.45.2.   Fast, $5.30.   Orono 121 1st   Pledge Card 121 3rd   
3rd-13   1/11/1986.   1.25L x 1.25L   Santa Anita Park, Arcadia, near LA, CA, USA   Breeders' Cup Juvenile   8.5f.   1709m.   122lbs   55.5kg   1.43.8.   Fast, $34.40.   Capote 122 $3.40F 1st   Qualify 122 $22.102nd   USD 108,000
2nd-12   14/12/1986.   Nk x nk   Hollywood Park, Los Angeles, CA, USA   Hollywood Futurity (currently Los Alamitos Cash Call Futurity)   8f.   1609m.   121lbs   55kg   1.36.2.   Fast, $7.60 (bktd)   Temperate Sil 121 $6.50 1st   Masterful Advocate 121 $7.70 3rd   USD 180,000
THREE YEARS: 1987  Starts 10: 3-3-1-3 for USD 2,511,156                                       
4th-9   8/03/1987.   2.75L x 0.75L x 1.5L   Santa Anita Park, Arcadia, near LA, CA, USA   Allowance   8.5f.   1709m.   114lbs   52kg   1.43.0.   Fast, $1.70F.   Barb's Relic 117 1st   Blanco 114 2nd   
2nd-8   22/03/1987.   0.75L x 2.75L   Santa Anita Park, Arcadia, near LA, CA, USA   San Felipe Hcp   8.5f.   1709m.   120lbs   54.5kg   1.43.0.   Good, $4.30.   Chart the Stars 116 1st   Temperate Sil 122 3rd   
DQ 3rd-5*   23/04/1987.   Hd x hd   Keeneland, Lexington, KY, USA   Blue Grass Stakes   8.5f.   1709m.   121lbs   55kg   1.48.4.   Fast, $1.90F.   War 121 2nd WOP 1st   Leo Castilli 121 3rd WOP 2nd   
1st-17   2/05/1987.   0.75L x 2.25L   Churchill Downs, Louisville, KY, USA   Kentucky Derby (G1)   10f.   2012m.   126lbs   57kg   2.03.40.   Fast, $9.40.   Bet Twice 126 2nd   Avie's Copy 126 3rd   USD 618,600
1st-9   16/05/1987.   0.5L x 1.5L   Pimlico, Baltimore, Maryland, USA   Preakness Stakes (G1)   9.5f.   1911m.   126lbs   57kg   1.55.80.   Fast, $3.00F.   Bet Twice 126 2nd   Cryptoclearance 126 3rd   USD 421,100
4th-9   6/06/1987.   14L x nse x nk   Belmont Park, Long Island, New York, USA   Belmont Stakes   12f.   2414m.   126lbs   57kg   2.28.20.   Fast, $1.80F.   Bet Twice 126 1st   Cryptoclearance 126 2nd   
2nd-5   1/08/1987.   Nk x nk   Monmouth Park, Oceanport, New Jersey, USA   Haskell Invitational Hcp   9f.   1810m.   126lbs   57kg   1.47.00.   Fast, $2.50.   Bet Twice 126 1st   Lost Cod 124 3rd   
6th-9   22/08/1987.   2L x 6.75L   Saratoga, Saratoga Springs, NY, USA   Travers Stakes   10f.   2012m.   126lbs   57kg   2.02.00.   Sloppy, $3.50F.   Java Gold 126 1st   Cryptoclearance 126 2nd   
1st-8   27/09/1987.   0.5L x 1.5L   Louisiana Downs, near Shreveport, Louisiana, USA   Super Derby VIII (G1)   10f.   2012m.   126lbs   57kg   2.03.20.   Fast, $1.50F.   Candi's Gold 126 2nd   Parochial 126 3rd   USD 600,000
2nd-12   21/11/1987.   Nse x 1.25L   Hollywood Park, Los Angeles, CA, USA   Breeders' Cup Classic   10f.   2012m.   122lbs   55.5kg   2.01.40.   Fast, $4.60.   Ferdinand 126 1st   Judge Angelucci 126 3rd   
* First past the post.                                       
FOUR YEARS: 1988  Starts 9: 7-1-0-1 for USD 3,808,600                                       
1st-6   7/02/1988.   3L x 8L   Santa Anita Park, Arcadia, near LA, CA, USA   Charles H. Strub Stakes (G1)   10f.   2012m.   126lbs   57kg   2.00.40.   Fast, $1.90F.   Candi's Gold 117 2nd   On The Line 118 3rd   USD 275,000
1st-4   6/03/1988.   0.5L x 2.5L   Santa Anita Park, Arcadia, near LA, CA, USA   Santa Anita Hcp (G1)   10f.   2012m.   126lbs   57kg   1.59.80.   Fast, $2.00F.   Ferdinand 127 2nd   Super Diamond 124 3rd   USD 550,000
1st-5   17/04/1988.   Nse x hd   Santa Anita Park, Arcadia, near LA, CA, USA   San Bernardino Hcp   9f.   1810m.   127lbs   57.5kg   1.47.20.   Fast, $1.80F.   Ferdinand 127 2nd   Good Taste 113 3rd   USD 350,000
4th-6   14/05/1988.   0.75L x 1.0 x 2.5L   Pimlico, Baltimore, Maryland, USA   Pimlico Special Hcp   9.5f.   1911m.   127lbs   57.5kg   1.54.2.   Fast, $1.60F.   Bet Twice 124 1st   Lost Code 126 2nd   
2nd-6   26/06/1988.   6.5L x 5.5L   Hollywood Park, Los Angeles, CA, USA   Hollywood Gold Cup Hcp   10f.   2012m.   126lbs   57kg   1.59.4.   Fast, $2.00F.   Cutlass Reality 116 1st    Ferdinand 125 3rd   
1st-6   27/08/1988.   0.75L x 4L   Monmouth Park, Oceanport, New Jersey, USA   Philip H. Iselin Hcp (G1)   9f.   1810m.   124lbs   56kg   1.47.80.   Fast, $2.00F.   Bet Twice 123 2nd   Gulch 122 3rd   USD 300,000
1st-8   17/09/1988.   Nk x nk   Belmont Park, Long Island, New York, USA   Woodward Hcp (G1)   10f.   2012m.   126lbs   57kg   1.59.40.   Fast, $2.80F.   Forty Niner 119 2nd   Waquoit 122 3rd   USD 498,600
1st-5   14/10/1988.   Nk x 6.25L   Meadowlands, East Rutherford, New Jersey, USA   Meadowlands Cup Hcp (G1)   10f.   2012m.   127lbs   57.5kg   1.58.80.   Fast, $1.50F.   Slew City Slew 116 2nd   Pleasant Virginian 114 3rd   USD 360,000
1st-9   5/11/1988.   0.5L x 5L   Churchill Downs, Louisville, KY, USA   Breeders' Cup Classic (G1)   10f.   2012m.   126lbs   57kg   2.04.80.   Muddy, $2.50F.   Seeking The Gold 122 2nd   Waquoit 126 3rd   
« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-02, 04:02 PM by tontonan »

Offline pwa54

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« 2018-May-31, 01:26 PM Reply #1735 »
Here are the records of a couple of forgotten horses from the early 1920s.

Harvest King numbered an Australian Cup, Melbourne (Mackinnon) Stakes and AJC St Leger as well as 3 successive wins in the King's Plate (the Melbourne Autumn 2 mile wfa race) amongst his victories.

Rivoli was the better horse, ending up topweight for the 1924 Melbourne Cup and having a brilliant Melbourne Spring in 1923 before a career-ending leg injury. Rivoli was a surprise AJC Derby winner, reviled as a third-rater, but picked up form culminating in victories in the Melbourne (Mackinnon) Stakes, C.B. Fisher Plate and a Melbourne Cup 2nd, after taking out the Craven Plate and Randwick Plate in Sydney.

They raced in a great era against an absolute champion like Eurythmic and the incredibly durable David amongst many other fine horses.

blk H (1918)   By Comedy King from Harvest Home

48 starts 10/10/3



7 starts 2/2/-

Unpl – 27/12/1920 Caulfield Juvenile Stakes 5f, 8st, 1st River Star (7st 8lb), 2nd Stare (8s 12lb), 1min 2¼sec
Unpl – 12/3/1921 Flemington Hopeful Stakes 5f, 7st 10lb, 1st Sunburst (7st 7lb), 1min ¾ sec
Unpl – 19/3/1921 Orrong Two-Year-Old 6f, 7st 6lb, 1st Salat (9st 2lb), 1min 14½sec
2nd – 4/6/1921 VRC King’s Birthday Princess Two-Year-Old Handicap 6f, 7st 3lb, 1st Green Malt (6st 11lb), 1min 14¾sec, ½ neck, 3½ lengths
2nd – 18/6/1921 Caulfield Minook Two-Year-Old 7f, 7st 6lb, 1st Green Malt (7st 4lb), 1min 30¾sec, length, 2½ lengths
1st – 6/7/1921 VRC Two-Year-Old Mile, 8st, 2nd Lionel Attwill (8st 3lb), 1min 42sec, ½ head
1st – 16/7/1921 VATC Lillimur Two-Year-Old 7f, 8st 5lb, 2nd Statton (6st 9lb), 1min 32sec, 1½ lengths



13 starts 3/5/2

3rd – 3/9/1921 Caulfield Memsie Stakes 9f, 1st Eurythmic (9st 11lb), 2nd Demetrius (7st 2lb), 1min 54sec, 1¼ lengths, 5 lengths
Unpl – 1/10/1921 Randwick AJC Derby 12f, 8st 10lb, 1st Cupidon (8st 10lb), 2nd Furious (8st 5lb), 2min 33¾sec, ½ length, ½ length
3rd – 29/10/1921 Flemington VRC Derby 12f, 8st 10lb, 1st Furious (8st 5lb), 2nd Bassi (8st 5lb), 2min 35sec, 3 lengths, ¾ length
4th – 1/11/1921 Flemington VRC Melbourne Cup 2 miles, 6st 10lb, 1st Sister Olive (6st 9lb), 2nd The Rover (8st 4lb), 3rd Amazonia (7st 11lb), 3min 27¾sec, ¾ length, head, “a very close 4th”
2nd – 5/11/1921 Flemington Batman Stakes 1 mile, 8st 7lb, 1st Heir Apparent (8st 2lb), 1min 39¾sec, ½ length, 3 lengths
2nd – 5/11/1921 C.B. Fisher Plate 12f, 7st 9lb, 1st Tangalooma (9st 1lb), 3rd Purser (9st 1lb), 2min 38¾sec, 3 lengths, ¾ length
2nd – 18/2/1922 Caulfield St George Stakes 9f, 7st 7lb, 1st Eurythmic (9st 12lb), 1min 54¼sec, neck, length
2nd – 4/3/1922 Flemington VRC St Leger Stakes 14f, 8st 10lb, 1st Furious (9st 7lb), 3rd Heir Apparent (8st 10lb), 3min 9½sec, ½ length, 3 lengths
1st – 7/3/1922 Australian Cup 18f, 7st 9lb, 2nd Sister Olive (7st 12lb), 3rd Purser (8st 1lb), 3min 54sec, ¾ length, ¾ length
1st – 11/3/1922 Flemington King’s Plate 2 miles, 8st, 2nd Sister Olive (7st 11lb), 3min 23 ¾ sec, 3rd Stare (8st), 3min 23¾sec, length, ½ length
1st – 15/4/1922 Randwick AJC St Leger 14f, 8st 10lb, 2nd Furious (8st 7lb), 3rd Publicity (8st 10lb), 3min 2¼sec, 1¾ lengths, 8 lengths

Unpl – 17/4/1922 Sydney Cup 2miles, 8st 10lb, 1st Prince Charles (7st 11lb), 2nd Kashmir (7st), 3rd Stare (8st 4lb), 2min 26¼sec, ¾ length, ½ length
2nd – 22/4/1922 Randwick AJC Plate 3miles, 8st, 1st David (9st), 5min 25½sec, 2 lengths, 20 lengths



12 3/1/1

Unpl – 2/9/1922 Caulfield Memsie Stakes 9f, 9st 7lb, 1st Eurythmic 9st 11lb, 2nd Purser 9st 1lb, 1min 55sec, ¾ length
Unpl – 7/10/1922 Flemington October Stakes 12f, 9st, 1st Tangalooma (9st 3lb), 2nd The Cypher (7st), 2min 35½sec, 2½ lengths
3rd – 14/10/1922 Caulfield Stakes 9f, 9st 1st Eurythmic (9st 4lb), 2nd Tangalooma (9st 1lb), 1min 53½sec, length, neck
1st – 4/11/1922 Flemington Melbourne Stakes 10f, 9st, 2nd Rivoli, 3rd Eurythmic (9st 3lb), 2min 6½sec, ¾ length, 1½ lengths
Unpl – 7/11/1922 Melbourne Cup 2 miles, 9st 1lb, 1st King Ingoda (7st 1lb), 2nd The Cypher (6st 9lb), 3min 28¼sec, ½ neck, 2½ lengths
Unpl – 11/11/1922 Flemington C.B. Fisher Plate 12f, 9st, 1st Violoncello (9st 5lb), 2nd Tangalooma (9st 2lb), 2min 33¼sec, neck, ¾ length
Unpl – 30/1/1923 Aspendale Park Handicap 1mile, 9st 12lb, 1st The Cypher (7st 4lb), 1min 41sec
Unpl – 17/2/1923 Caulfield St George Stakes 9f, 9st 10lb, 1st Easingwold (9st), 2nd Eurythmic (9st 12lb), 1min 54sec, short neck
1st – 3/3/1923 Flemington Essendon Stakes 10f, 9st, 2nd Eurythmic (9st 2lb), 3rd Sister Olive (8st 11lb), 2min 6¾sec, length, 2½ lengths
2nd – 8/3/1923 Flemington VRC Governor’s Plate 12f, 1st Rivoli (8st 2lb), 2min 38sec, head
1st – 10/3/1923 Flemington King’s Plate 2 miles, 9st, 2nd The Cypher (8st 11lb), 3rd Tangalooma (9st 1lb), 3min 32sec, 3 lengths, 6 lengths
Unpl – 31/3/1923 Randwick Autumn Stakes 12f, 9st, 1st Speciality (9st 3lb), 2nd David (9st 3lb), 3rd Rivoli (8st 2lb), 2min 36½sec, neck, 2 lengths


13 2/2/-

Unpl – 29/9/1923 Randwick Spring Stakes 12f, 1st David (9st 6lb), 2nd Rivoli (9st), 3rd Purser (9st 3lb), 2min 33sec, neck, length
2nd – 3/10/1923 Randwick Craven Plate 9st 4lb, 1st Rivoli (9st), 3rd The Epicure (9st 1lb) 2min 4¾sec, 2½ lengths, 2 lengths
Unpl – 6/10/1923 Randwick Plate 16f, 1st Rivoli (9st), 2nd David (9st 7lb), 3rd Rapine (8st 11lb), 3min 25sec, neck, short neck
2nd - 3/11/1923 Melbourne Stakes 10f, 9st 3lb, 1st Rivoli (9st), 3rd Maid of the Mist (8st 9lb), 2min 4¾sec, short half-head
Unpl – 6/11/1923 Melbourne Cup 2 miles, 9st 5lb, 1st Bitalli (7st 10lb), 2nd Rivoli (9st 1lb), 3rd Accarak (6st 9lb), 3min 24¼sec, ¾ length, 1½ lengths
Unpl – 8/11/1923 Linlithgow Stakes 1 mile, 9st 2lb, 1st Maid of the Mist (8st 13lb), 2nd Claro (8st 13lb), 3rd Easingwold (9st 2lb), 1min 37¼sec, length, 3 lengths
Unpl – 12/11/1923 Williamstown Cup 12f, 9st 4lb, 1st Wynette (7st 12lb), 2nd Note (7st 10lb), 2min 33sec, ½ head
Unpl – 17/11/1923 Caulfield Armadale Cup 12f, 9st 5lb, 1st Comique (7st 11lb), 2nd Wynette (8st 9lb), 2min 33sec, 2½ lengths
Unpl – 16/2/1924 Caulfield St George Stakes 9f, 9st 12lb, 1st The Hawk (8st 13lb), 2nd Polytheist (8st 4lb), 1min 54½sec, 2 lengths
Unpl – 23/2/1924 Caulfield Woodcliff Handicap 11f, 9st 3lb, 1st Englefield (8st 8lb), 2nd Suomi (6st 13lb), 3rd Benoni (7st 10lb), 2min 20½sec, neck, length
Unpl – 4/3/1924 Flemington Australian Cup 18f, 9st 2lb, 1st Accarak (7st 8lb), 2nd Jackstaff (7st 2lb), 3min 53¼sec, 1½ lengths
1st – 6/3/1924 Governor’s Plate 12f, 9st 3lb, 2nd Easingwold (9st 3lb), =3rd Wynette (9st) and Maid of the Mist (9st 11lb), 2min 32¾sec, ¾ length
1st – 8/3/1924 King’s Plate 2m, 9st 4lb, 2nd The Rover (9st 1lb), 3rd Frances Tressady (7st 11lb), 3min 35sec, ½ head, ¾ length



3 -/-/-

Unpl – 6/9/1924 Caulfield Memsie Stakes 9f, 9st 11lb, 1st Englefield (9st 1lb), 2nd Spearfelt (8st 11lb), 3rd Whittier (9st 11lb), 1min 55sec, 1¼ lengths, ¾ length
Unpl – 4/10/1924 Caulfield VRC October Stakes 9f, 9st 4lb, 1st Whittier (9st 4lb), 2nd Lilypond (8st 11lb), 1min 55sec, 2 lengths
Unpl – 11/10/1924 Caulfield Stakes 9f, 9st 4lb, 1st The Hawk (9st 1lb), 2nd Whittier (9st 4lb), 1min 57½sec, ½ head, 3 lengths

1919 bay horse
By Repartee from Lady Babbie (Ire)

37 starts 8/7/1


13 2/1/-

Unpl – 3/10/1921 Randwick AJC Breeder’s Plate 5f, 8st 5lb, 1st Salrak (8st 5lb), 1min
Unpl – 15/10/1921 Randwick City Tattersall’s Two-Year-Old Handicap 5f, 8st 2lb, 1st Suasive (7st 2lb), 1min 2½sec
Unpl – 24/10/1921 Canterbury Park Nursery 5f, 8st 2lb, Miss Piedal (8st), 1min 4½sec
Unpl – 5/11/1921Moorefield Park Nursery Handicap (First division) 4f, 8st, 1st Lyndolan (9st), 50½sec
1st – 19/11/1921 Canterbury Park Nursery Handicap (First Division) 5f, 7st 7lb, 2nd Melia (8st), 1min 4½sec, 1¼ lengths
2nd – 3/12/1921 Canterbury Park Moorefield Nursery 5f, 8st 12lb, 1sy Miss Piedal (8st 5lb), 1min 3sec, ½ length
Unpl – 24/12/1921 Randwick AJC December Nursery Handicap 5f, 8st 7lb, 1st Soorak (9st), 1min 2sec
Unpl – 3/1/1922 Randwick Tattersall’s Nursery Handicap 5½f, 8st 2lb, 1st Little Flower (6st 7lb), 1min 10¼sec
Unpl – 4/3/1922 Canterbury Park Juvenile handicap 5f, 9st, 1st Oriental Charm (7st), 1min 4½sec
Unpl – 18/3/1922 Moorefield Park Juvenile Handicap 5f, 9st, 1st Lady Popinjay (9st 3lb), 1min 4¾sec
Unpl – 1/4/1922 Rosehill Juvenile Stakes (First Division), 5½f, 8st 6lb, 1st Theory (9st 9lb), 1min 7¼sec
1st – 17/4/1922 Randwick AJC First Nursery Handicap (Second Division) 6f, 8st 2lb, 2nd Little Flower (8st), 1min 15¾sec, ¾ length
Unpl – 22/4/1922 Randwick Second Nursery 1mile, 8st 13lb, 1st Miss Highfield (6st 12lb), 1min 40sec



11 2/4/1

Unpl – 16/9/1922 Rosehill Guineas 9f, 8st 5lb, 1st Caserta (8st 5lb), 2nd Cliffdale (8st 5lb), 1min 55sec, 2½ lengths
2nd – 23/9/1922 Rosehill Hawkesbury Guineas 1mile, 8st 5lb, 1st Cliffdale (8st 5lb), 1min 39¾sec, length, 3 lengths
1st – 30/9/1922 AJC Derby 12f, 8st 10lb, 2nd Soorak (8st 10lb), 2min 35½sec, short head, 3 lengths
2nd – 4/11/1922 Flemington Melbourne Stakes 10f, 7st 12lb, 1st Harvest King (9st), 3rd Eurythmic (9st 3lb), 2min 6½sec, ¾ length, 1½ lengths
Unpl – 7/11/1922 Melbourne Cup 2 miles, 7st 6lb, 1st King Ingoda (7st 1lb), 2nd The Cypher (6st 9lb), 3min 28¼sec, ½ neck, 2½ lengths
Unpl – 3/3/1923 Flemington VRC Essendon Stakes 10f, 8st 4lb, 1st Harvest King 2nd Eurythmic 2min 6¾sec, length, 2 lengths
1st – 8/3/1923 Flemington VRC Governor’s Plate 12f, 8st 2lb, 2nd Harvest King (9st), 2min 38sec, head
3rd – 31/3/1923 Randwick Autumn Stakes 12f, 8st 2lb, 1st Speciality (9st 3lb), 2nd David (9st 3lb), 2min 36½sec, neck, 2 lengths
Unpl – 2/4/1923 Randwick Sydney Cup 2 miles, 8st 7lb, 1st David (9st 7lb), 2nd Heir Apparent (7st 12lb), 3min 26 ½ sec, length, ½ length
2nd – 5/4/1923 AJC Cumberland Stakes 14f, 8st 6lb, 1st David (9st 3lb), 3min 2½sec, ¾ length, 1¼ lengths
2nd – 7/4/1923 Randwick AJC Plate 18f, 8st 2lb, 1st David (9st 4lb), 3rd The Cypher (8st 2lb), 3min 38¼sec, 2 lengths, neck



10 4/2/-

Unpl – 9/8/1923 Randwick AJC Warwick Farm Meeting Bank Holiday Handicap 10f, 9st 5lb, 1st Indigo (6st 10lb), 2min 10¾sec
Unpl – 15/9/1923 Rosehill Handicap 11f, 9st 4lb, 1st Mirthmaker (7st 2lb), 2min 20¼sec, 2½ lengths
2nd – 29/9/1923 Spring Stakes Randwick 12f, 9st, 1st David (9st 6lb), 3rd Purser (9st 3lb),2min 33sec, neck, length
Unpl – 1/10/1923 Randwick AJC Metropolitan 13f, 9st 2lb, 1st Comptroller (7st), 2nd David (9st 13lb), 2min 43½sec, 4 lengths, ½ length
1st – 3/10/1923 Randwick Craven Plate 10f, 9st, 2nd Harvest King (9st 4lb), 3rd The Epicure (9st 1lb), 2min 4¾sec, 2½lengths, 2 lengths
1st – 6/10/1923 Randwick Plate 2 miles, 9st, 2nd David (9st 7lb), 3rd Rapine (8st 11lb), 3min 25sec, neck, short head

Unpl – 20/10/1923 Caulfield Cup 12f, 8st 13lb, 1st Wynette (6st 11lb), 2nd Easingwold (9st 1lb), 2min 33sec, 1¾ length
1st – 3/11/1923 Flemington VRC Melbourne Stakes 10f, 9st, 2nd Harvest King (9st 3lb), 2min 4¾sec, short-half-head, ½ neck
2nd – 6/11/1923 Melbourne Cup 2miles, 9st 1lb, 1st Bitalli (7st 10lb), 3rd Accarak (6st 9lb), 3min 24¼sec, ¾ length, 1½ lengths
1st – 10/11/1923 C.B. Fisher Plate 12f, 9st, 2nd Maid of the Mist (8st 9lb), 3rd Easingwold (9st 1lb), 2min 36¾sec, neck, ½ length



3 -/-/-

Unpl – 6/9/1924 Warwick Farm September Handicap 10f, 9st 12lb, 1st The Cypher (8st 12lb), 2min 5½sec
Unpl – 13/9/1924 Randwick Tatt’s Chelmsford Stakes 9f, (9st 11lb), 1st Heroic (8st 2lb), 2nd Gloaming, 1min 50¼sec
Unpl – 4/10/1924 Randwick AJC Spring Stakes 12f, 9st 5lb, 1st Gloaming (9st 3lb), 2nd David (9st 6lb), 3rd Ballymena (8st 11lb), 2min 37sec, 1½ lengths, 1½ lengths
« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-02, 08:12 PM by pwa54 »

Offline tontonan

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« 2018-Jun-01, 06:11 PM Reply #1736 »
Not much at all between those two. Neither was a champion but both were top class stayers.

Harvest King was exceptionally well bred. His third dam was Barley who was imported to Australia in 1891 bearing a foal by Harvester (GB) who was called Harvest Lass. Barley also produced a number of stakes winners in Australia including the champion 3YO and sire Maltster. Harvest Lass, his half sister, produced Harvest Home, the dam of Harvest King.

Harvest King was by Comedy King (GB) who was landed in Victoria in 1907 at the foot of his mother Tragedy Queen (Ire). Comedy King was outstanding, the first import to win the Melbourne Cup as well as a host of WFA races before a stellar stud career that produced the Melbourne Cup winning champion Artilleryman, the champion 3YO Biplane, another Melbourne Cup winner in King Ingoda, the Sydney Cup winner Murray King and a host of other stakes winners. He was twice Australian champion sire.

Tragedy Queen (Ire) also produced Jubilee Queen, dam of Sister Olive. Sister Olive was the last filly to win the Melbourne Cup in 1922. She only won 2 races in her 37 race career : Her debut in the Maribyrnong Trial Stakes and the Melbourne Cup but she was runner up to Harvest King in both the Australian Cup and the King's Plate. Although she was the same age as Harvest King, neither were the leading 3YO of the season due to the achievements of the champion filly Furious (VRC Derby, Oaks and St Leger, Rosehill Guineas, AJC Sires & Champagne Sks).

Sister Olive proved to be an excellent broodmare. He son Manolive (by Manfred) won the Perth Cup, Williamstown Cup, Orr Stakes and Eclipse. She also produced Mount of Olives (x Lucknow) who won the SAJC Derby. Her daughter Ronolive produced Amarco (by Masthead), the VRC Oaks winner famous as the dam of champion Tobin Bronze and Raw Metal, dam of VRC Derby winner Galena Boy.

Like Harvest King Sister Olive was not a champion but she is most certainly a very significant member of the Australian Thoroughbred family and her record is included below.

« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-02, 04:46 PM by tontonan »

Offline pwa54

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« 2018-Jun-02, 10:39 AM Reply #1737 »
Tonto, I must admit I do like "resurrecting" the records of the now-forgotten very good horses, particularly those from the late 19th century and earlier last century. There's no chance of a hidden champion amongst them (although Poison Pen mentioned in another thread that Trivalve's record wasn't here. He deserves champion status as does the brilliant filly Valicare from the late 1920s.) It is disappointing how the racing industry has so little regard for its heritage. In just about every other sport, detailed records of even the most minor events and competitors are available. Admittedly not many now are interested in long-ago races and horses, outside the champions and the Melbourne Cup.

Thanks for the breeding details. With the similarity of the names, it was interesting to see if there was a connection between Comedy King and Comic Court. Comedy King's daughter Miss Comedy produced Witty Maid who produced Comic Court, an amusing continuation of the naming theme.

The 1920s was one of the great eras. A couple of other top-class horses from that decade, both from New Zealand, were Ballymena, put down after breaking a fetlock when leading the Randwick Plate. He won the NZ Derby (Great Northern Derby) and the AJC Derby and had a couple of great duels with Gloaming. The other was Pilliewinkie, whose name sounds like one of the Teletubbies, but which won some good races such as the Australian Cup and Melbourne Stakes in the 1925-26 season and was 3rd in the 1925 Melbourne Cup behind Windbag and Manfred, the Cup Geoff Armstrong rates as the best of all.

Offline tontonan

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« 2018-Jun-02, 04:47 PM Reply #1738 »

1918 chestnut filly (Red Denis GB - Jubilee Queen)
Owned by F Norman Trained by J.Williams
37 starts 2 wins 6 seconds 8 thirds
37  starts  2 wins 6  seconds  8 thirds  £

 : 5.4%   Place : 43.2%   Range : 4½f to 16f   Average Win : 10.2f
Principal Race Wins : 1   PR wins/all starts : 2.7%  Win Seq : 1

1920-21 At TWO YEARS 
2-Oct WON 30 Flemington MaribyrnongTrial 4½f 7.9 8-1 f ShepherdQueen 7.9 0:57.5
9-Oct 6th 16 Caulfield DebuutanteStakes 4f 8.0 7-4 f Sefton 8.0 0:48.7
30-Oct Unp 15 Flemington MaribyrnongPlate 5f 8.5 15-1 Antarian 8.10 1:01.7
2-Nov 4th 14 Flemington Mimosa Stakes 6f 8.5 12-1 Otacre 8.10 1:14.0
13-Nov 2ND 23 Caulfield Stansmore 2yo 5f 8.7 8-1 Elmira 8.3 1:02.7
8-Mar 2ND 10 Flemington Ascot Vale Stakes 6f 8.7 8-1 Isa 9.3 1:14.5
10-Mar 3RD 9 Flemington March Nursery 6f 8.8 7-2 Vinchilla 6.12 1:14.7
19-Mar 5th 11 Caulfield Orrong Hcp 6f 9.0 11/2 Salatis 9..2 1:14.5
11-Apr 4th 11 Caulfield Katandra Hcp 7f 8.11 12-1 Salatis 9.13 1:29.5

1921-22 At THREE YEARS
20-Aug Unp 24 Flemington Apprentices' 6f 7.10 -- Pannikan 6.9 1:13.2
3-Sep Unp 19 Caulfield Warriston Welter 8f 8.7 -- Woodfield 7.9 1:42.2
7-Sep Unp 15 M.Valley Highweight 6f 8.13 -- Scotch Haze 8.7 1:16.0
8-Oct 4th 11 Caulfield Caulfield Guineas 8f 8.0 10-1 Demetrius 8.5 1:42.7
1-Oct 3RD 17 Flemington Stand Hcp 8f
10-1 Purser 7.13 2:07.5
15-Oct 4th 20 Caulfield Caulfield Cup 12f 6.11 20-1 Violoncello 8.13 2:35.7
1-Nov WON 25 Flemington Melbourne Cup 16f 6.9 16-1 The Rover 6.4 3:27.7
3-Nov 3RD 5 Flemington VRC Oaks 12f 8.10 5-2 Furious 8.10 2:35.5
18Feb 3RD 13 Caulfield St George Stakes 9f 8.0 25-1 Eurythmic 9.12 1:54.2
4-Mar 3RD 10 Flemington Essendon Stakes 10f 8.1 7-1 Stare 8.4 2:07.2
7-Mar 2ND 23 Flemington Australian Cup 18f 7.12 7-1 Harvest King 7.10 3:54.0
11-Mar 2ND 5 Flemington King's Plate 16f 7.11 3-1 Harvest King 8.0 6:28.7
15-Apr 2ND 5 Randwick Autumn Stakes 12f 8.2 33-1 Beaufort 9.0 2:32.2
17-Apr 5th 21 Randwick Sydney Cup 16f 8.4 6-1 Prince Charles 7.11 3:26.7
19-Apr Unp 5 Randwick CumberlandStakes 16f 7.13 7-1 David 9.0 3:38.5

1922-23 At FOUR YEARS
19-Aug Unp 19 Flemington Apprentices' 6f 9.5 -- My Play 6.7 1:17.7
2-Sep 6th 13 Caulfield Memsie Stakes 9f 9.2 10-1 Eurythmic 9.11 1:55.0
7-Oct 5th 22 Flemington Stand Hcp 10f 8.12 10-1 Stare 9.10 2:09.7
18-Oct 5th 10 Caulfield Herbert Power 11f 8.9 12-1 Purser 9.1 2:23.2
17-Feb 3RD 12 Caulfield St George Stakes 9f 8.11 16-1 Easingwold 9.0 1:54.0
24-Feb 2ND 10 Caulfield Woodcliff Hcp 11f 9.0 6-4 f Prince Cox 8.2 2:21.5
3-Mar 3RD 7 Flemington Essendon Stakes 10f 8.11 14-1 Harvest King 9.0 2:06.7

4-Aug 6th 12 Caulfield Malakoff Stakes 9f 8.13 -- Sonora 8.0 1:58.0
1-Sep 6th 16 Caulfield Heatherlie Hcp 9f 812 14-1 Wynette 7.8 1:53.0
19-Sep Unp 9 Sandown SandownParkHcp 8f 8.11 7-4 f Anton Rain 7.11 1:42.7
6-Oct 3RD 21 Flemington Stand Hcp 10f 8.7 8-1 The Tyrant 8.0 2:05.5
17-Oct 5th 7 Caulfield Herbert Power 11f 8.13 8-1 Easingwold 9.4 2:22.7
6-Nov Unp 27 Flemington Melbourne Cup 16f 8.8 33-1 Bitalli  7.0 3:24.2
« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-02, 07:06 PM by tontonan »

Offline tontonan

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« 2018-Jun-02, 07:04 PM Reply #1739 »
Tonto, I must admit I do like "resurrecting" the records of the now-forgotten very good horses, particularly those from the late 19th century and earlier last century. There's no chance of a hidden champion amongst them (although Poison Pen mentioned in another thread that Trivalve's record wasn't here. He deserves champion status as does the brilliant filly Valicare from the late 1920s.)

More power to you pwa. Your contributions to this thread have enhanced my project no end.

Trivalve is quite a yarn.  The Irish bred sire Cyklon belonged to Kaiser Wilhelm II who sent the horse to England to race where he was seized by the British authorities on the outbreak of WW1.   

Enter Frank Bullock, the Australian jockey who had won the Melbourne Cup on Blue Spec in 1905 and the Caulfield Cups of 1918 and 1919.  In between he rode with great success in England (where he rode 9 winners at Royal Ascot in 1921), France and Germany (where he won the German Jockey's Premiership five times in six years).  In Germany he rode Cyklon to a stakes win before the war and Bullock approached the British authorities to buy the seized stallion for Australia. 

In Australia Cyklon won a number of races including the Eclipse Stakes at Caulfield and ran third in the Caulfield Cup, ridden by Bullock's brother in law Bobbie Lewis who convinced EED Clarke to have Cyklon take the place of the recetly departed The Welkin at Melton Stud.   At Melton Cyklon was introduced to Trey, the daughter of The Welkin and the great broodmare Teppo who, like Cyklon, was a grandchild of Carbine. 

The result in 1924 was the chestnut colt Trivalve.

1924 Ch colt (Cyklon (Ire) - Trey by The Welkin)
Owned and bred by EED Clarke
Trained by James Scobie

20 starts 8 wins 3 seconds 5 thirds £28375
Win : 40%  Place : 80%  Range : 6f to 16f  Average Win :11.9f

1926-27 At TWO YEARS
2-Oct UNP of 26 Flemington Maribyrnong Trial 4½f 8.5 Euston 8.2 00:54.2
16-Oct UNP of 22 Caulfield Gwyn Nursery 5f 8.3 Querida 8.5 01:03.5
4-Nov 3RD of 5 Flemington Byron Moore 6f 8.3 8-1 The Wensum 8.1 01:16.2
6-Nov WON of 15 Flemington Flemington Stakes 6f 8.8 6-4 f Eutouche 7.7 01:14.5
26-Feb 2ND of 10 Flemington Sires' Produce 7f 8.1 8-1 Royal Feast 8.1 01:27.2
3-Mar 3RD of 7 Flemington Ascot Vale 6f 8.1 5-1 Royal Feast 9.6 01:15.2
5-Mar WON of 12 Flemington Gibson Carmichael 7f 9.3 7-1 Pulkami 7.11 01:27.0
18-Apr UNP of 13 Randwick Sires' Produce 7f 8.1 10-1 Royal Feast 8.1 01:32.0
23-Apr UNP of 13 Randwick Easter Stakes 7f 8.2 9-2 ef Ascalon 8.2 01:29.7
26-Apr 3RD of 12 Randwick Champagne Stakes 6f 8.1 25-1 Cannon 8.11 01:13.5

1927-28 At TWO YEARS
1-Oct WON of 17 Randwick AJC Derby 12f 8.1 6-1 Winalot 8.1 02:33.0
8-Oct 2ND of 11 Caulfield Caulfield Guineas 8f 8.5 4-1 Avant Courier 8.5 01:39.7
29-Oct WON of 7 Flemington Victoria Derby 12f 8.1 4-7 f Statesman 8.1 02:33.0
2-Nov WON of 26 Flemington Melbourne Cup 16f 7.6 6-1 Silvius 7.5 03:24.0
3-Mar WON of 4 Flemington St Leger Stakes 14f 8.1 1-7 f Charlot 8.1 03:03.0
8-Mar WON of 3 Flemington Governor's Plate 12f 8.2 1-10 f Pilliewinkie 9 02:35.2
10-Mar WON of 4 Flemington King's Plate 16f 8 1-12 f Pilliewinkie 9.1 03:34.2
7-Apr 3RD of 3 Randwick St Leger Stakes 14f 8.1 1-2 f Jocelyn 8.7 03:14.5
11-Apr 2ND 3 Randwick Cumberland Stakes 16f 8.2 1-2 f Valamita 9.4 03:35.7
5-May 3RD 8 Morphettville St Leger Stakes 14f 8.1 Burnaby 8.1 03:07.5

His loss of form was sudden and unexpected. He pulled up decidedly lame in Adelaide.  He was retired at once but Trivalve was disappointing at stud and was ultimately sold to the Northern Territory for £7 where he became a sire of station hacks in Central Australia before dying from snake bite.  He did get the 1934 Port Adelaide Cup winner Supervalve in one of his early crops.
« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-02, 07:16 PM by tontonan »

Offline timw

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« 2018-Jun-02, 08:54 PM Reply #1740 »

I agree with tontonan - keep at it - its only by doing the hard slog will we be able to properly reflect on the history of racing's main participants, the horses.  I suspect many official historians take shortcuts.  For example towards the very end on the nz racing hall of fame video on Grey Way you will find a flash still which suggests Grey Way had 51 wins and 49 placings (if you are not paying attention you will miss it).  This is the same figure appearing in Jack Glengarry's The Great Decade of New Zealand Racing 1970 - 1980 which I suspect includes 2 fourths among the placings and other omissions. If I had to guess I would say that no one in NZ has checked his career record thoroughly.  If I had all the resources nz racing should have at its disposal I would have published Grey Way's complete record by now.  Tontonan - the same book has NZ 'hall-of-famer' Show Gate's complete record as well but I have not yet been able to get my hands on a complete second source to make sure there are no errors.       


Offline tontonan

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« 2018-Jun-02, 09:33 PM Reply #1741 »

How about Peter Pring's Analysis of Champion Racehorses pp.583-590  as a second source ?

Show Gate ; 51 starts 30 wins 7 seconds 2 thirds  $104,167

Offline pwa54

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« 2018-Jun-02, 10:50 PM Reply #1742 »
Cheers Tim and Tonto. It is the horses that attract us to racing as a sport and they deserve recognition for their achievements.

Thanks for Trivalve’s record. It’s a very good one in a great era but his didn’t seem to be a vintage year for 3-year-olds.

The German connection of Cyklon is interesting. It is surprising how international the racing and breeding industry was pre-WWI. A good galloper like the 1903 Australian Cup winner, Great Scot, went on to a very successful two seasons in India and then raced in England before ending up lost during the Revolution after being sold as a sire to Russia.

I had a record of Grey Way as 164 starts 51/27/21 with one Australian win. I’m not sure where I got it from, maybe Miller’s Guide.

A H of F horse at least should have their record thoroughly checked but errors and best guesses do get copied. Peter Pring and Warwick Hobson were both excellent researchers but inevitably missed races here and there and journalists seemed to use Miller’s Guide. It is surprising with an industry so large, that there is not a researcher/historian attached to the governing bodies. As you point out Tim, the resources are all there.

Offline timw

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« 2018-Jun-03, 09:52 AM Reply #1743 »
pwa - Mark Taylor has Grey Way's career as 164 starts  for 51/27/21,  I currently have 161 starts for 51/27/20.  If Taylor is right I am missing 1 x third and 2 x unplaced runs.

Tontonan - Thanks re Showgate - I now have about 2.5 sources for Showgate - I must have too much stuff in my head.  I will get to work on that one.


Offline Dave

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« 2018-Jun-03, 06:45 PM Reply #1744 »
That race record of Rivoli brings back memories of my teen years......no I am not that old that I actually remember Rivoli........

I worked for a Trainer by the name of Basil Andrews at Warwick Farm.....his father Ike Andrews trained Rivoli and they thought it would win the Cup in '23 anyway they had a big pic of Rivoli on the wall being held by a young Basil Andrews who must have been his strapper.....I think there was also a pic of the Cup Finish too........I think Bitalli won easy but that part is a little fuzzy...........every time we went to the main house for Breakfast we would walk past it....gee that was a long time ago and that is how I remember it

The horse that beat him, Bitalli was having his first run in 6 months.....not a bad effort to win the Melbourne Cup first up. is it?  I think he started fav too, can't see the bookies opening him fav first up so I assume there was a lot of money won on him that day.......
That was part of the hey day of Australian racing, it lasted for more than a 100 years so I suppose we had a good run??

Offline pwa54

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« 2018-Jun-03, 09:32 PM Reply #1745 »
Great memories Dave. There's an interesting article on the Cup with a photo of Ike Andrews and the finish of the race at


maybe the same photo you remember!

Offline pwa54

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« 2018-Jun-03, 10:05 PM Reply #1746 »
A monumental task to trace Grey Way's record, Tim. It would be good to know if Mark Taylor researched Grey Way's record or obtained it from elsewhere.

Whether 164 or 161 starts, his surely must be the most by any horse with at least a couple of Group 1s to their credit.

Offline tontonan

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« 2018-Jun-03, 11:49 PM Reply #1747 »
Well and truly. 

In our collection the only horses to have more than 100 starts are -

Lough Neagh (127 starts)   
David (125 starts) 
Battle Heights (115 starts)
Tranquil Star (111 starts)
Castletown (103 starst) 

The Hawk (136 starts) is one I have in my collection but without his complete record.  He has 5 Group 1 wins in Australia and NZ.

Offline pwa54

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« 2018-Jun-04, 09:01 AM Reply #1748 »
Thanks for the list, Tonto. It’s hard to see any first-class galloper reaching 100 starts in the future.

The Hawk’s complete record is in Peter Pring (although I wouldn’t want to transcribe it!)

Looking through that, he was still winning regional cups in New Zealand as an 11 and 12 year-old and was 2nd in the Wellington Cup as a 10 year-old but only carrying 7st 8lb, a far cry from his best year as a 6 year-old in 1924-25 when he won 3 current G1s and 4 other principal races. 41 starts in Australia for 14 wins, 13 of those in principal races.

An iron horse like Lough Neagh and David in his era.

Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Jun-04, 03:53 PM Reply #1749 »
This is a list of the greatest or best 100 mares to race in Australasia.

Please feel free to add mares I may have missed.

In chronological order

1887.....Lady Zetland
1894.....La Carabine

1900....Sweet Nell
1902....Lady Wallace
1906....Lady Medallist
1912....Desert Gold

1929....Silver Scorn
1933....Rivette  ntb
1937....Tranquil Star
1946....Sweet Spray
1847....True Course
1952....Evening Peal

1957....Wenona Girl
1961....Light Fingers
1966....Gay Poss
1967....Dual Choice
1969....Show Gate

1971....Cap D'Antibes
1972....Denice's Joy
1972....Maybe Mahal
1972....Toy Show
1975....My Blue Denim
1978....November Rain
1978....Rose Of Kingston

1981....Spirit Of Kingston
1982....Heat Of The Moment
1983....Bounding Away
1985....Riverina Charm

1987....Let's Elope
1989....Slight Chance

1991....Circles Of Gold
1993....Dane Ripper
1994....Tycoon Lil
1995....Grand Archway
1996....Miss Pennymoney
1996....Spinning Hill
1997....Belle du Jeur

1998....Republic Lass
1999....Makybe Diva
1999....Private Steer
2001...Miss Andretti
2003....Hot Danish
2003....Miss Finland

2003....Tuesday Joy
2005....Typhoon Tracy
2006....Black Caviar
2006....More Joyous
2007....Pinker Pinker
2008....Atlantic Jewel
2008....Silent Achiever
« Last Edit: 2018-Jun-04, 06:03 PM by Authorized »