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Offline pwa54

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« 2020-May-19, 10:33 AM Reply #1900 »
Wily, I checked on Archer. There's a book called The Master's Touch, Racing with Etienne de Mestre by Keith Paterson which has a full record of Archer.

He was even money favourite in his last race, the Champion Sweepstakes, but after finishing 3rd there was an uproar in the press that de Mestre had raced him when he was lame. He had had a swelling in a foreleg and a fever for a fortnight a while before the race. Archer was a heavy horse and hard to train. A spokesman for de Mestre said "Mr de Mestre runs his horses for his own amusement and ignores the right of the public to question any course he may choose to adopt". 

He was taken back to Sydney to train for the Metropolitan in September but in August 1864  he was injured in training and retired to the stud at Exeter Farm where he stood until 1872.  His breeders apparently preferred to keep his breeding secret as he had a short pedigree and so was not regarded as a thoroughbred according to Paterson.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2020-May-19, 05:45 PM Reply #1901 »
Cheers mate. A great tale :thumbsup:

Offline ahremck

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« 2020-Jun-07, 07:07 AM Reply #1902 »
Can we get a race record for Time and Tides older brother Fine and Dandy.  I feel a horse good enough to win the Goldern Slipper and later 2 Doncaster handicaps is likely to be a worthy subject.

Offline ahremck

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« 2020-Jun-07, 07:20 AM Reply #1903 »
I have submitted a Nomination for the Hall of Fame for Winfreux.  A record that has 10 Group 1 victories, and twice runner up in the Cox Plate is more than adequate I feel.  Additionally he was able to win a Group 1 as a 3yo , 4yo, 5yo, 6yo and 7yo.  The main reason I submitted is that he holds 3 Australian distance records still, as they are in furlongs.  I would be surprised if any other horse has retired with that many.  [/size

Offline ahremck

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« 2020-Jun-07, 07:27 AM Reply #1904 »
While I am in an inquisitive mood.  Does anyone know of a list of Principal races?  They were the predecessor of Group Races  Racing Australia ia happy to list all 4 level of Group races but nothing about Principal Races.  I wonder did they have levels too?

Offline timw

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« 2020-Jun-08, 01:22 PM Reply #1905 »
ahremck

A list of principal races can be found at pages 659ff of Peter Pring's Analysis of Champion Racehorses published in 1977.  The various Turf Registers published lists of winners of principal races but does not appear to be comprehensive.  One that caught my attention was the 1963 AJC Millers Lager Hcp over 12f which carried about the same prizemoney as the Sydney Cup that year.  I haven't looked at the Australian Stud Book website for years so you may be able to compile a list of winners from it but it would be time consuming and I have found errors in their race tables in the past.

Interestingly Mr Pring did not think Fine and Dandy's record was worth of inclusion in that book.  However he did include Fine and Dandy's record in his Major Australian Races and Racehorses 1960-1980 at pp 42-44 (published 1980).  7 of his 15 wins (45 starts) came as a 2YO (after the 2YO year he won 8 of 37).  While he did beat Sky High and Wenona Girl (once each as an older horse) looking through his record he struggled against top liners such as Aquanita, Sky High (beat him many times),  Wenona Girl, Kilshery,

Cheers


Offline timw

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« 2020-Jun-08, 07:28 PM Reply #1906 »
ahreck

Re Winfreux course records

Peter Pring only recorded one course record in his book "Major Australian Races and Racehorses 1960-1980" and that was the Caulfield 9f record which he described as an '(ANZR)' or Australasian record. 

The Canberra Times claimed that his winning time in the Doomben Cup was a world record breaking  Man O'War's 2.14.2 set ay Belmont Park NY June 1920 (actual date 12 June 1920).  I checked thru my American publications and found that they only included the US 11f dirt record in their tables.  The 11f. turf record of 2.12.4. was held by Cool Prince set at Delaware Park, Delaware on 3 July 1965.  Looking at my NZ books it is clear he ran a faster time that any horse in NZ so it can be labelled an "ANZR" record as well. 

The Canberra Times labelled his win in the 1967 Hill Stakes as a course record. It could be an ANZR record as well although I wouldn't claim it as such as there are so few races over that distance.

if you are looking for an Australian horse that set or equalled records then Shannon (AUS) 1941 is hard to go past.  He set an ANZR in the 1946 George Main Stakes. In America he broke the Bay Meadows 9.5f course record (8 May 1948).  At Golden Gate Fields he equalled the 9f world record (17 Oct 1948)  Next start (23 Oct 1948) at same track he set the 10f American record and equalled the world record.  At his last start he broke the 9f. Tanforan course record (25 Nov 1948).
 

Offline pwa54

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« 2020-Jun-09, 10:34 AM Reply #1907 »
Tim, the Millers Lager Hcp was a 12 furlong race, starting as the Randwick Centenary Invitation Stakes in 1960 when Valerius won. It was the Sunday Telegraph Invitation Stakes in 1961 when Persian Lyric beat Tulloch and Valerius, then the Daily Telegraph Cup in 1962 when Grand Print defeated River Seine and Nilarco.

The winners of the Millers Lager Hcp from 1963-1965 were The Dip, Politician and Richetta. Craftsman was 2nd in 1965. I'm not sure why it was discontinued but the prizemoney was impressive. Maybe it wasn't attracting the quality they thought it might by 1965.


Offline Grega9430

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« 2020-Aug-09, 04:41 PM Reply #1908 »
Just used the information here on Dulcify and Vo Rogue for reference, very helpful.

Brilliant work Poison Pen and others who have contibuted, thanks.

Offline pwa54

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« 2020-Sep-14, 04:45 PM Reply #1909 »
Sobar
(brown colt, 1969, by Sobig from Miss Filou)
20 starts 6/2/2

For a few weeks in October 1972, particularly after his slashing Caulfield Cup victory, he was the most promising horse since Tulloch and then came the VRC Derby. How much he was slaughtered there by Harry White is still open for debate, but his tendon damage reduced him to a shadow of that promise. Sadly, his second-last start was at Ballarat, a real come-down.
He only ever started in Victoria.

2yo 1971-72
2 starts 1/1-


2nd – 13/3/1972 Flemington March Nursery (2) 6f, L. Hill, 8st, (50/1), 1st Arabian Breeze 9st, 3rd Civic Square 7st 8lb, short ½ head, ½ length, 1min 11.8sec
1st – 3/4/1972 Caulfield Orrong Handicap 6f, H. White 8st 2lb (7/2), 2nd Prince Dargee 8st, 3rd Happy Spectre 8st 1lb, 3 lengths, 1 length, 1 min 11½sec

3yo 1972-73
7 starts 3/1/1


6th –  5/8/1972 Caulfield Moondah Plate, 1000m, J.Parr, 46kgs (8/1), 1st Acidity 50kgs, 2nd The Flying Scotsman 51½kgs, 3rd Predator 50½kgs, ½ length, ¾ length, 58sec
(This was the first weekend of metric racing in Australia)
7th – 26/8/1972 Sandown Belhaven Hcp (2) 1400m, H. White 54½ kgs, (7/4fav), 1st Salvo 53½kgs, 2nd Wilecho 46kgs, 3rd Gala Red 48kgs, ½ length, length, 1min 26.6sec
3rd – 9/9/1972 Flemington Craiglee Stakes 1600m, H. White 51kgs (7/1), 1st Gossiper 54½kgs, 2nd Royal Show 58 kg, short ½ head, short ½ head, 1min 37½sec
1st – 28/9/1972 Caulfield Underwood Stakes 2000m, H. White 49kgs, (5/2 fav) 2nd Kazanlik 54½kgs, 3rd Gossiper 54½kgs, 1½ lengths, 1¼ lengths, 2min 1.9sec
1st – 14/10/1972 Caulfield Guineas 1600m, H. White 55½kgs, (6/4), 2nd Century 55½kgs, 3rd Acidity 55½kgs, 3½ lengths, 1¼ lengths, 1min 36.2sec
1st – 21/10/1972 Caulfield Cup 2400m, H. White 48kgs, (2/1 fav), 2nd Stormy Seas 54½kgs, 3rd Gunsynd 62kgs, 2 lengths, ¼ length, 2min 27.1sec, (course record, Harry White rode him 2.5kgs overweight so he carried 50.5)

2nd – 4/11/1972 Flemington Victoria Derby 2400m, H. White 55½kgs, (11/4 on fav), 1st Dayana 55½kgs, 3rd Longfella 55½kgs, neck, 3 lengths, 2min 29.9sec

4yo 1973-74
8 starts 2/-/1


10th – 8/9/1973 Flemington Craiglee Stakes 1600m, R. Wood, 57kgs (16/1) 1st Gay Icarus 58½kgs, 2nd Golden Sam 58½kgs, 3rd Zambari 58½kgs, length, ½ length, 1min 38.4sec
7th – 27/9/1973 Caulfield Underwood Stakes 2000m, R. Wood 57kgs, (6/1) 1st Scotch and Dry 59kgs, 2nd Dayana 57kgs, 3rd Zambari 59kgs, 2 lengths, 1½ lengths, 2min 3.8sec
5th – 6/10/1973 Flemington Turnbull Stakes 2000m, G. Mallinson, 57½kgs (10/1), 1st Australasia 53kgs, 2nd Dayana 57kgs, 3rd Gala Supreme 55kgs, 1¼ lengths, 2¼ lengths, 2min 1.6sec
3rd – 13/10/1973 Caulfield Stakes 2000m J. Miller 57kgs (5/1), 1st Glengowan 59kgs, 2nd All Shot 59kgs, ½ head, 3 lengths, 2min 6½sec
5th – 28/1/1974 Moonee Valley William Reid Stakes, 1200m, A. Simpson, 57kgs (25/1), 1st All Shot 57½kgs, 2nd Tauto 57½kgs, 3rd Wandle 57kgs, ½ length, 2 lengths, 1min 10½sec
1st – 16/2/1974 Flemington Blamey Stakes 1600m, R. Mallyon 57kgs (4/1), 2nd Asgard 53 kgs 3rd All Shot 57½kgs, 2 lengths, 2 lengths, 1min 36.4sec
1st – 23/2/1974 Caulfield St George Stakes 1800m R. Mallyon 57kgs (2/1 on fav), 2nd Analie 55½kgs, 3rd Gala Supreme 57kgs, 2½ lengths, 4 lengths, 1min 49.8sec (course record)

9th – 11/3/1974 Flemington Australian Cup 2000m, R. Mallyon, 58½ kgs (5/4fav), 1st Bush Win 50½kgs, 2nd Grand Scale 51kgs, 3rd Gala Supreme 55 kgs, long head, long head, 2min 0.9sec

5yo 1974-75
3 starts -/-/-


14th – 21/9/1974 Moonee Valley Feehan Hcp 1600m, P. Simonds 60kgs, (12/1), 1st Arama 49½kgs, 2nd Grand Scale 54kgs, 3rd Love Aloft 54kgs, 2½ lengths, 1½ lengths, 1min 39.4sec
9th – 3/10/1974 Ballarat Gold Nugget Stakes 1600m, M. Houlahan, 62½kgs (5/1), 1st The Sporan 57kgs, 2nd Beau Russet 48kgs, 3rd Angel’s Best 49kgs, 2 lengths, ½ length, 1min 43.8sec
15th – 12/10/1974 Flemington Toorak Hcp 1600m, P. Simonds, 58kgs (50/1), 1st Leilani 52½kgs, 2nd Bellota 50½kgs, 3rd Dandy Gem 50kgs, 3 lengths, 5 lengths, 1min 44.3 sec
« Last Edit: 2020-Sep-15, 10:22 AM by pwa54 »

Offline timw

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« 2020-Sep-14, 05:11 PM Reply #1910 »
pwa

Sobar's Caulfield Cup time was considered a course record.  I note that both Winfreux (9f.) and Tulloch (12f.) had  run faster times than Sobar's records over the imperial equivalent distances. 

Cheers

Offline pwa54

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« 2020-Sep-15, 10:25 AM Reply #1911 »
Thanks Tim, I've added "course record" to his Caulfield Cup win and also the fact that Harry White rode him 2.5 kilos overweight, which meant Sobar carried 50.5.


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