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  • Guest
« 2013-Nov-28, 05:40 PM Reply #275 »


that's a link to mentone tonto.
limited info i suppose, but to me it's my childhood, so brings back memories.

after today, i am very happy that i decided to give you that book.
couldn't imagine a better home for it.
i'm jealous that i don't have that spark for it, that you obviously do.

Offline tontonan

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« 2013-Nov-28, 06:55 PM Reply #276 »


I am much obliged and very pleasantly surprised.  It's a terrific little book.

The Kingston website articles are very good too and have gone straight into my files.  

I looked up the photo above from 1962 which shows the Mentone training track on the left and the Airport on the right.  It's a good galloping stretch but what a brute of a home turn !   It looks like it turns about 120 degrees in 120 yards.

I also found out that when they sub divided the course and sold off the allotments in 1972 a deposit on one would set you back $750.

Those were the days.


  • Guest
« 2013-Nov-28, 07:23 PM Reply #277 »
mick clarke former rider for colin hayes lived on the site of the old track when it was subdivided, for a good while at least.

the picture of the track from the first link has the old tote shed behind the judges box.
the track manager lived there when it was a training track.
i have got memories too of a yearly picnic type meeting after it closed down, the only problem is that i don't know if it actually happened, or i imagined it.
the joys of getting old!

also tony lopes trained there(before flemington) and when it was subdivided they gifted a park that was called chiquita park after that well known horse.
i think that kingston council sold it to developers at some stage!!

some great trainers.
brian courtney
geoff murphy
bob hoysted
charlie waymouth.

think rising fast was there too.
phar lap was stabled just up the road at what is now braeside park.
if you find braeside park on google maps, you can still see the outline of the training track that telford had built when he lived there.
i can still remember the stable on lower dandenong rd, it was burnt down by idiot vandals in, i think the 80's sometime

Offline westie

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« 2013-Nov-28, 08:01 PM Reply #278 »
Just catching up and as DD stated a magnificent effort, if at some stage you wanted the site archived I would suggest contacting the National Archives http://www.naa.gov.au/ and or The Nationional Library http://www.nla.gov.au/ , the latter certainly will archive web sites.

Offline timw

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« 2013-Nov-30, 07:22 AM Reply #279 »
Grey Boots (NZ) 1945                                 
77 starts, 14 wins (5 x Group 1), 13 seconds and 3 thirds.  Win % 18.2, Place % 39.                                  
TWO YEARS:  1947-1948  Starts 8:  1-0-0-7                                 
13th-20   10/01/1948.   1L x 2L   run at Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Juvenile Hcp   5f.   1005m.   8.5.   53kg   1.01.5.   25/1.   Newborough 9.5 5/4F 1st
5th-19   31/01/1948.   1.5L x 1L   Canterbury, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC 2-Years-Old Maiden Hcp   5f.   1005m.   8.8.   54.5kg   1.02.0.   9/2.   Bold Duke 8.11 5/2F 1st
1st-17   7/02/1948.   1.5L x 3L   run at Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Ingleburn Juvenile Hcp   6f. 19y.   1224m.   7.2.   45.5kg   1.13.75.   16/1.   Cragside 8.0 50/1 2nd
13th-18   20/03/1948.   1.5L x 1.25L   Warwick Farm, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Fairfield Hcp (1st Division)   6f.   1207m.   7.10.   49kg   1.12.25.   10/1.   Riptide 9.5 4/1 1st
10th-21   31/03/1948.   0.75L x nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC George Rowe Hcp   6f.   1207m.   7.12.   50kg   1.13.25.   12/1.   Bernbrook 7.12 7/4F 1st
10th-15   3/04/1948.   4L x hd   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Fernhill Hcp   8f   1609   7.10.   49kg   1.38.75.   12/1.   Sheba 8.11 4/1EF 1st
9th-14   26/04/1948.    nk x hd   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Bridges Juvenile Hcp   Abt 7f.   Abt 1400m.   7.3.   46kg   Time*   12/1.   Overseer 7.7 4/1 1st
4th-6   8/05/1948.   1L x 0.75L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   Tattersall's Club 2-Year-Old Hcp   7f. 19⅔y.   1426m.   6.11.   43kg   1.27.5.   8/1.   Blue Diamond 8.7 11/4 1st
* Australian Turf Register time of 2.10.0. clearly incorrect. Sydney Morning Herald also reported this time.  This is the same time as that run over 10f. in the fourth race.                                  
THREE YEARS:  1948-1949  Starts 6:  2-1-0-3                                 
Unpl-14   7/12/1948.   Lg nk x lg nk   Gosford, NSW, AUS   First Novice Hcp (1st Division)   5f.   1005m.   8.0.   51kg   1.01.0.   4/1.   Dixie Chief 8.10 7/1 1st
6th-15   1/01/1949.   1.5L x hd   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   Tattersall's Club New Year's Gift   7f 5ft.   1410m.   7.7.   47.5kg   1.28.0.   16/1.   Phalanx 8.8 9/2 1st
2nd-17   5/03/1949.    nk x 2L   Moorefield, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Welter Hcp (2nd Division)   6f.   1207m.   7.7.   47.5kg   1.16.5   7/1.   Double Gift 7.12 7/1 1st
7th-22   26/03/1949.   0.5L x hd   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Parramatta Mixed Stakes (1st Division)   7f.**   1408m.   8.0.   51kg   1.26.5.   Good, 10/1.   Avail 8.0 40/1 1st
1st-15   20/04/1949.   Lg nk x 0.5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Point Piper Hcp   7f.   1408m.   8.9.   55kg   1.26.75.   Soft, 6/1.   Holland 9.10 3/1F 2nd
1st-7   11/06/1949.   Hd x 3L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC June Stakes   Abt 6f.   Abt 1200m.   7.2.   45.5kg   1.17.25.   9/1.   Deep Sea 9.6 9/2 2nd
** The 1949 Australian Turf Register incorrectly records the distance as 6f.                                 
FOUR YEARS:  1949-1950  Starts 12:  2-3-1-6         Pds 6,852 (p903 1950 ATR)                        
13th-17   17/09/1949   Hd x Lg hd   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Theo Marks Quality Hcp   7f.   1408m.   7.1.   45kg   1.26.0.   Holding, 10/1.   Hisign 7.13 8/1 1st
6th-16   28/09/1949   2.5L x 2.5L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Flying Hcp   7f.   1408m.   7.2.   45.5kg   1.27.0.   13/2.   Wattle 7.9 25/1 1st
9th-25   1/10/1949   1.75L x 0.5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Epsom Hcp   8f.   1609m.   7.5.   46.5kg   1.37.75.   Holding, 40/1.   Denali 8.5 25/1 1st
3rd-12   8/10/1949   1.25L 0.75L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Chester Hcp   6f.   1207m.   7.4.   46.5kg   1.11.75.   8/1.   Heroic Sovereign 8.11 7/1 1st
2nd-18   3/12/1949   0.5L x 1L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Varroville Hcp   Abt 6f.   Abt 1200m.   7.4.   46.5kg   1.13.25.   14/1.   Sheba 8.1 4/1 1st
6th-22   14/01/1950   0.75L x 1.5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Softon Hcp   Abt 6f.   Abt 1200m.   7.5.   46.5kg   1.13.25.   13/2.   Blue Flag 8.0 12/1 1st
1st-9   10/01/1950   Nk x hd   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Australia Day Hcp   7f.   1408m.   7.8.   48kg   1.23.75.   4/1EF   Hesdin 7.7 10/1 2nd
2nd-17   25/02/1950   Nk x nk   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Salisbury Welter   8f.   1609m.   9.1.   57.5kg   1.37.75.   5/1EF    Zipper 8.12 11/2 1st
2nd-18   1/04/1950   Hd x 2.5L   run at Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Liverpool Hcp   7f. 18y.   1425m.   7.8.   48kg   1.30.5.   7/1.   Bungymun 7.1 9/1 1st
1st-23   8/04/1950   3L x hd   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Doncaster Hcp (G1)   8f.   1609m.   7.7.   47.5kg   1.38.25.   25/1.   Achilles 8.6 8/1 2nd
8th-17   24/06/1950   0.5L x 0.5L   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Flying Hcp   7f. less 93y.   1323m.   8.4.   52.5kg   1.23.25.   10/1.   Spellman 8.2 20/1 1st
7th-25   1/07/1950.   1L x nk   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Doomben Ten Thousand   7f. less 93y.   1323m.   8.2.   52kg   1.17.75.   12/1.   Rim Boy 7.11 6/1EF 1st
FIVE YEARS:  1950-1951  Starts 9: 4-2-0-3                                 
4th-20   26/08/1950.   0.75L x nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Campbelltown Hcp   6f. 15⅓y.   1221m.   8.9.   55kg   1.15.0.   20/1.   Cognac 8.0 10/1 1st
2nd-5   2/10/1950.   Lg nk x 0.75L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC The George Main Stakes   8f.   1609m.   9.0.   57kg   1.40.5   8/1.   San Domenico 9.0 5/2 1st
1st-14   14/10/1950.   1.75L x 1.25L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Toorak Hcp (G1)   8f.   1609m.   8.6   53.5kg   1.37.5.   5/1.   Regular Port 8.12 8/1 2nd
1st-20    21/10/1950.   0.75L x nk   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Cup (G1)   12f.   2414m.   7.13   50.5kg   2.31.0.   7/1F   Chiquita 8.12 15/1 2nd
Trainer took horse back to Sydney after being allocated 8.7 in Melb Cup (Argus 23/10/1950 page 1)                                 
1st-13    24/02/1951.   Nk x 1.25L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Denham Court Hcp   7f. 24y.   1430m.   8.13.   56.5kg   1.26.5.   Good, 7/1   Niranga 7.5 16/1 2nd
1st-5   10/03/1951.   2L x 3L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rawson Stakes (G1)   9f.   1810m.   8.13.   56.5kg   1.55.0.   Dead, 2/5F   Karangi 8.4 5/1 2nd
2nd-2   17/03/1951.   2.5L   run at Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Chipping Norton Stakes   10f. 27⅔y.   2055m.   8.13.   56.5kg   2.09.5   6/4.   Comic Court 9.2 4/7F 1st
4th-20   28/04/1951.   3L x hd   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   QTC Stradbroke Hcp   6f.   1207m.   9.3.   58.5kg   1.11.5.   6/1.   Aqua Regis 8.0 20/1 1st
4th-12   30/04/1951.   0.75L x hd   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   QTC Brisbane Cup   16f.   3219m.   8.11.   56kg   3.23.5.   10/1.   Prince of Fairies 8.7 7/1 1st
SIX YEARS:  1951-1952  Starts 18: 3-4-1-10                                 
7th-13   25/08/1951.   1.25L x 1.5L   run at Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Warwick Stakes   7f 20y.   1427m.   9.0.   57kg   1.24.5.   Good, 11/2   San Domenico 9.0 6/4F 1st
5th-7   22/09/1951.   1.5L x 0.5L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Hill Stakes   9f.   1810m.   9.1.   57.5kg   1.44.5.   Heavy, 14/1.   San Domenico 9.1 1/1F 1st
DH 2nd-4    1/10/1951.   Lg hd x DH   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC George Main Stakes   8f.   1609m.   9.0.   57kg   1.37.25.   Fast, 4/1   Oversight 9.0 2/1 1st
4th-6   3/10/1951.   2.5L x 4L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Craven Plate   10f.   2011m.   9.1   57.5kg   2.13.0.   Heavy, 7/4F   Hydrogen 7.11 4/1 1st
1st-8   17/10/1951.   0.5L x sht hd   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Stakes (G1)   9f.   1810m.   9.1   57.5kg   1.52.5.   Good, 5/2.   Ellerslie 9.1 3/1 2nd
6th-18   27/10/1951.   4L x nk   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC Phoenix Hcp   8f.   1609m.   9.5   59.5kg   1.38.75.   Holding, 1/1F   Merry Scout 8.2 7/1 1st
3rd-7   3/11/1951.   2L x 0.5L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC L. K. S. Mackinnon Stakes   10f.   2011m.   9.0.   57kg   2.03.0.   Good, 9/2   Delta 9.1 6/4F 1st
6th-28   6/11/1951.   0.75L x 3L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Melbourne Cup   16f.   3219m.   8.10.   55.5kg   3.24.25.   Good, 14/1   Delta 9.5 10/1 1st
2nd-15   17/11/1951.   Hd x nk   run at Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MRC Williamstown Cup   12f.   2414m.   8.12.   56kg   2.31.75.   Good 4/1F   Shoreham 7.2 6/1 1st
4th-12   16/02/1952.    hd x nose   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Civic Hcp   6f.   1207m.   8.12.   56kg   1.12.25.   Good, 11/2   Tesmic 7.6 14/1 1st
1st-8   23/02/1952.   1L x hd   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MRC C.F. Orr Stakes   8f.   1609m.   8.12.   56kg   1.37.75.   Holding 2/1EF   Ellerslie 8.12 11/2 2nd
2nd-8   8/03/1952.   2L x 0.5L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC 55th Caulfield Futurity Stakes   7f.   1408m.   10.4.   65.5kg   1.25.25.   Fast, 4/1.   San Domenico 10.4 9/4F 1st
1st-5   19/03/1952.   1.25L x 0.5L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC C.M. Lloyd Stakes   8f.   1609m.   8.12.   56kg   1.39.25.   Good 1/2F    Ellerslie 8.12 4/1 2nd
6th-10   29/03/1952.   1.5L x 0.5L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC Alister Clark Stakes   10f.   2011m.   9.0.   57kg   2.04.5.   Good, 5/4F.   Step Aside 7.5 25/1 1st
4th-5   12/04/1952.   1.75L x nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Autumn Stakes   12f.   2414m.   9.0.   57kg   2.39.0.   Heavy, 6/4EF   Dalray 8.4 6/4EF 1st
5th-12   14/04/1952.   Hd x 8L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Sydney Cup   16f.   3219m.   8.10.   55.5kg   3.37.25.   Heavy, 20/1   Opulent 7.1 16/1 1st
14th-26   5/07/1952.   1.25L x 0.75L   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Doomben 10,000   7f. less 93y.   1323m.   8.8.   54.5kg   1.17.5.   Good, 14/1.   Highlea 7.2 50/1 1st
2nd-24   12/07/1952.   3L x 1L   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Doomben Cup   11f. less 22y.   2193m.   8.8.   54.5kg   2.17.0.   Fair, 5/1   Tossing 7.6 9/1 1st
SEVEN YEARS:  1952-1953  Starts 19: 2-3-1-13                                 
11th-17   2/08/1952.    nk x 1.75L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Winter Hcp   7f.   1408m.   8.11.   56kg   1.30.0.   Heavy, 25/1.   Bronze Peak 7.6 10/1 1st
5th-9   23/08/1952.    hd x sht hd   Warwick Farm, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Warwick Stakes   7f.   1408m.   9.0.   57kg   1.27.5.   Dead, 8/1.   Foreign Exchange 7.4 14/1 1st
3rd-9   27/09/1952.   2L x lg nk   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Hill Stakes   8.5f.   1709m.   9.1.   57.5kg   1.45.0.   Fast, 14/1.   Hydrogen 9.0 7/4EF 1st
2nd-4   6/10/1952.   0.5L x 4L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC George Main Stakes   8f.   1609m.   9.0.   57kg   1.48.7   Heavy, 2/1EF   Montana 9.0 2/1EF 1st
2nd-8   8/10/1952.   1.75L x 2.5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Suburban Hcp   8f. 22⅓y.   1630m.   8.10.   55.5kg   1.39.25.   Slow, 5/1   Oversight 9.4 9/4F 1st
7th-12   15/10/1952.    hd x 3L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Stakes   9f.   1810m.   9.1.   57.5kg   1.52.25.   Good, 9/2   Peshawar 9.0 11/2 1st
18th-26   18/10/1952.   1.5L x 2L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Cup   12f.   2414m.   8.13.   56.5kg   2.30.25.   Good, 50/1.   Peshawar 8.2 11/4F 1st
9th-16   29/11/1952.   Lg nk x 1.25L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Malabar Hcp    6f.   1207m.   8.9.   55kg   1.11.75.   Good, 10/1.   La Hey 7.3 6/1 1st
8th-11   13/12/1952.   Sht hd x 1L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Christmas Cup   12f.   2414m.   9.4.   59kg   2.30.75 (RR)   Fast, 6/1.   Headstockman 8.2 9/2F 1st
6th-14   20/12/1952.    hd x 1L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC December Hcp   10f.   2011m.   9.0.   57kg   2.03.75.   Fast, 3/1F   Skystreamer 7.9 5/1 1st
10th-12   1/01/1953.   Lg nk x 1L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   Tattersall's Club Alfred Hill Hcp   8f.   1609m.   9.6.   60kg   1.37.0.   Fast, 25/1.   Whirl 7.13 7/2F 1st
9th-11   17/01/1953.   2L x nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Banjo Paterson Hcp   6f. 13y.   1219m.   8.9.   55kg   1.13.0.   Good, 40/1.   La Hey 7.7 13/2 1st
2nd-7   26/01/1953.   1L x 1.75L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Anniversary Hcp   12f.   2414m.   8.8.   54.5kg   2.34.0.   Dead, 10/1.   Blank Music 7.0 5/1 1st
7th-28   9/05/1953.   2L x nk   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Dover Hcp   6f.   1207m.   9.1.   57.5kg   1.12.0.   Good, 50/1.   Tudor Arch 8.8 6/1 1st
9th-22   30/05/1953.   0.5L x 1.5L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MRC Southern Stakes   Abt 7f.   Abt 1400m.   9.7.   60kg   1.29.0.   Slow, 8/1.   Mac Dennis 7.9 16/1 1st
16th-23   2/06/1953.   0.5L x hd   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Coronation Cup   10f.   2011m.   9.0.   57kg   2.04.25.   Good, 10/1.   Quite Talk 8.8 5/2F 1st
4th-22   13/06/1953.   1.25L x 1.5L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Richmond Hcp   12f.   2414m.   9.2.   58kg   2.35.75.   Holding, 6/1EF   Glenvue 9.1 8/1 1st
1st-14   4/07/1953.   0.75L x hd   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC July Hcp   12f.   2414m.   9.3.   58.5kg   2.31.25.   Good, 3/1F   Durham 9.9 6/1 2nd
1st-14   18/07/1953.   0.75L x 1L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Murrumbeena Hcp   12f.   2414m.   9.8.   61kg   2.35.75.   Heavy, 11/4F.   Sun Salute 7.0 20/1 2nd
EIGHT YEARS:  1953-1954  Starts 5: 0-0-0-5                                 
7th-13   5/09/1953.   0.5L x 1.5L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Memsie Stakes   9f.   1810m.   9.1.   57.5kg   1.53.75   Good, 6/1.   Jovial Lad 9.4 10/1 1st
7th-8   12/09/1953.   2L x 1L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Craiglee Stakes   10f.   2011m.   9.1.   57.5kg   2.03.75   Fast, 7/1.   Aldershot 9.4 6/1 1st
11th-14   24/09/1953.   0.75L x 1L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC The Metropolitan Hcp   12f.   2414m.   9.6.   60kg   2.34.5.   Good, 6/1.   Rousselore 7.6 14/1 1st
14th-14   3/10/1953.   Nk x 0.5L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Stand Hcp   13f.   2615m.   9.3.***   58.5kg   2.47.5.   Dead, 14/1.   Shell Fire 7.4 16/1 1st
12th-12   7/11/1953.   3L x 4L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Final Hcp   10f.   2011m.   9.1.   57.5kg   2.13.5.   Heavy, 20/1.   Gallant Rob 7.7 12/1 1st
*** The 1954 Australian Turf Register incorrectly records the weight as 8.3. Grey Boots ran as the topweight with 9.3.                                 
« Last Edit: 2016-May-18, 07:08 PM by tontonan »

Offline tontonan

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« 2013-Dec-01, 10:33 AM Reply #280 »
Thanks Westie.

Ultimately I have to do something with my digital scrapbook.  To finish it would be a good start.

When I have something completed I will certainly take that advice, but it is still a construction zone at present.

Grey Boots :

It is remarkable how some of these horses were campaigned.  Before his Caulfield Cup win Grey Boots had never started beyond a mile.  Later in the same season he runs 4th in the Stradbroke on Saturday and 4th in the Brisbane Cup on Monday.

The handicapping is interesting too.  The Caulfield Cup and Doncaster Hcp winner gets 56.5kg in the Denham Court Hcp at Randwick but 58.5kg in the Stradbroke,  55.5kg in the AJC Suburban Hcp but 56.5kg in the Caulfield Cup, 54.5kg in the Anniversary Hcp at Randwick and 60kg in the Southern Stakes at Caulfield.  It seems very discretionary compared with todays mechanical handicapping.

Offline manikato1

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« 2013-Dec-01, 11:40 AM Reply #281 »
Grey Boots :


The handicapping is interesting too.  The Caulfield Cup and Doncaster Hcp winner gets 56.5kg in the Denham Court Hcp at Randwick but 58.5kg in the Stradbroke,  55.5kg in the AJC Suburban Hcp but 56.5kg in the Caulfield Cup, 54.5kg in the Anniversary Hcp at Randwick and 60kg in the Southern Stakes at Caulfield.  It seems very discretionary compared with todays mechanical handicapping.

Not sure the first is all that strange - he did win the Denham Court then won the Rawson and second in the Chipping Norton before the Stradbroke.  That he had 2.5kg less in the Cup might suggest the Stradbroke was weak?

I am more interested that the Stradbroke was 6f?  I had always believed it was always 7f, so that is new to me.

Offline tontonan

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« 2013-Dec-01, 02:24 PM Reply #282 »
That's true but at his previous Randwick handicap start in August he had received 55kg and in the meantime had won a Toorak Handicap and a Caulfield Cup.  I reckon he got into the Denham Court pretty light with 56.5kg.

I know Tim is working to a criteria based on Group 1 equivalent wins but I reckon Grey Boots is flattered being on the same page as some of the other horses here.  He wins good handicap races but he gets in light - the Toorak with 53.5kg, the Caulfield Cup with 50.5kg, the Doncaster with 47.5kg.  He won two or three weight for age races against good but not great opposition.

That sums him up really.  A good galloper but not a great one.

The Stradbroke was 6 furlongs up until 1953 (according to Millers)

Offline timw

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« 2013-Dec-01, 08:18 PM Reply #283 »
Perhaps Grey Boots was a good ordinary conveyance - he certainly hasn't figured in anyone's 'best of' lists.  Out of the same 1945 foal crop came the notable horses Carbon Copy (3 x G1) and Comic Court (5 x G1) but nothing of note seems to have been foaled in 1942 and 1943 (no doubt discouraged by the war).  The 1946 foal crop left Chicquita (2 x G1) and Delta (6 x G1) and a couple of NZedders (Sweet Spray and Beaumaris) who never crossed the Tasman.  The opposition was probably a bit thin and I suppose we might say Grey Boots was lucky enough to beat the handicapper several times.  At least his big race wins were in open company and he certainly wasn't disgraced at WFA.       

Offline tontonan

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« 2013-Dec-01, 09:56 PM Reply #284 »

You asked earlier for any corrections.  In relation to Dagworth I came across a comprehensive article on the horse at -

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70498084    (Australian Town and Country 26 October 1872)

in which they say ,

"From Randwick Mr. De Mestre took the colt to Shoalhaven, where he got among tho commoners, and won three races-the Maiden Plate, and the Shoalhaven and Forced Handicaps-but, although in the latter of these he carried 8st 7lb, when the spring handicaps appealed, the handicappers, one and all, agreed by common consent to let him in very light."

The reference is to races between April and August 1872, prior to his first win in the Hawkesbury Grand Handicap.  I don't have any secondary confirmation but it may be worthy of a footnote.

The article has no byline but I believe from the style and its publication in Australian Town and Country that the author is 'Pegasus' who was a very credible turf scribe of the time.

Edit :  Maurie Cavanough notes in his Melbourne Cup book that Dagworth came to Melbourne in the Spring of 1872 having won his last seven starts - that would accord with suggestion of him winning those three races at Shoalhaven before the Grand Handicap.

« Last Edit: 2013-Dec-01, 11:14 PM by tontonan »

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2013-Dec-02, 07:42 AM Reply #285 »
The publishing of all of these wonderful records certainly shows how many are way toooo quick to label the latest thing a champion

Offline timw

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« 2013-Dec-02, 06:22 PM Reply #286 »

re Dagworth

You may be in the following article on the death of Dagworth titled "Old Dagworth" Rockhampton Bulletin (Qld. : 1871 - 1878) Friday 18 February 1876 p 2 Article
Haven't figured out how to paste links.
Neither the article or Douglas Barrie mention Shoalhaven but that does not mean much.

I recently heard on TV a historian state (my words) that the first to publish leaves a trail for others to pick over.    Reminds me of a conversation which went thus: Accountants use a pencil because they know they will make mistakes whereas lawyers use a pen because they will never admit to them.


Offline tontonan

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« 2013-Dec-02, 08:42 PM Reply #287 »
Regarding links. 

From Trove select the CITE button above the text panel and copy the Article Identifer address
Here, just paste it into your message.

I fully agree with the idea that first research blazes a trail that others pick over but those trails can be false and misleading.  Huge respect for Douglas Barrie but he did not have access to digital newspaper archives, and having done newspaper research before computers I can tell you it was massively time consuming and difficult.  If I never see another microfiche reader it will be too soon, and Barrie didn't even have access to one of those.

In the Archer profile on my site I tell the story of the Archer myth of walking to Melbourne from Nowra and how a historian as proficient as Andrew Lemon managed to not only write it into the first volume of his landmark history of Australian thoroughbred racing he approved Harold Freedman painting it into his mural on the Hill Stand at Flemington for good and always. 

The curious thing is that I have trawled through Trove and I can find no reference whatsoever to the myth until the 1980's but I have found the very clear reporting of Archer having arrived at Sandridge on the City of Sydney at the time of his arrival in the 1860s.   Nobody at all believed the myth in the 1860's.  It emerged much, much  later. 

Two years after Lemon set the myth in stone he exploded the myth he had helped to perpetuate by referencing those newspaper reports of the 1860's. 

In the meantime it had been made into a movie and the delectable Judy Green had filmed a TV documentary 'retracing Archer's footsteps'

I originally added Dagworth's three Shoalhaven wins as a footnote to his record but after remembering the Maurie Cavanough passage I have added it to his record proper.   I trust Maurie.  His book was first written in 1960 and has been through 10 editions (up until my copy).  25 years is plenty of time to iron out the kinks.

And, curiously, while Cavanough likes to tell turf tales even if they are tall, he does not commit a word to notion that Archer walked to Melbourne, even to point to it as a myth.  He just doesn't mention it at all.

Offline timw

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« 2013-Dec-08, 06:16 AM Reply #288 »

I have updated Dagworth's record. It seems the racetrack was at Numba near Shoalhaven. I haven't been able to locate exactly where the racetrack was but the it seems the first farm in the area was at Numba.  Apparently Numba became Numbaa in 1938.

I often wonder why the local race club websites don't have a history page.  There is a Shoalhaven Historical Society.

Offline tontonan

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« 2013-Dec-08, 03:00 PM Reply #289 »
I imagine the track would have been little more than a picnic affair and Etienne DeMestre sending his horses to race their would have been akin to Bart Cummings sending his horse to Bong Bong.  Maybe I imagine wrong but certainly DeMestre's set up at Terrara was one of the best in the country and he would have been a whale in a goldfish bowl.

There was a fella associated with his forum in the old days whose name escapes me who ran an site (an MSN Group) called Racehorse Obituaries.  It was terrific.  Not only was he interested in dead racehorses he also had a section on dead racetracks that was really excellent.  Sadly his site disappeared with MSN Groups.

While on Etienne DeMestre I have the racing record here of Navigator which I think is worthy of posting...


1879 brown colt
(Robinson Crusoe - Cocoanut)
Bred, owned and trained by
Etienne deMestre at Terrara, near Shoalhaven NSW

16 starts 11 wins 2 seconds 2 thirds   7766


1881-82         At TWO YEARS -  78 starts 5 wins 2 seconds 1 third

30Oct =2nd 28 Flemington VRC Maribyrnong Plate 5f 7/1 8.10 2L Seganhoe 8.10 1.04.0
3Nov WON 19 Flemington VRC FLYING SKS(wfa) 6f 3/1=   2L Morpeth 1.16
2Jan WON 7 Flemington VRC NORMANDY SKS 5f 7/1 8.10 neck Solitude 8.5 1.06
26Jan WON 7 Geelong GRC SIRES PRODUCE S 7f 2/5* 9.3 1L Guesswork 8.10 1.37.0
4Mar WON 11 Flemington VRC ASCOT VALE SKS 6f 4/6* 8.10 3L Blocka 8.10 1.19
8Apr WON 7 Randwick AJC CHAMPAGNE SKS 6f 3/1 8.10 L Hecla 8.5 1.16
12Apr 3rd 4 Randwick AJC Sires Produce Stks 7f 2/5* 8.10 head Jessie 8.5 1.31
15Apr 2nd 6 Randwick AJC Great Foal Stakes 6f 5/4* 9.3 1L Jessie 9.1 1.18

1882-83       At THREE YEARS -   7 starts  6 wins  0 seconds 1 third

2Sep WON 4 Randwick AJC DERBY 12f 5/2 8.10 2L Seganhoe 8.10 2.48
7Sep WON 3 Randwick AJC MARES PRODUCE S 10f Evens* 8.10 2L Hecla 8.5 2.17
28Oct WON 10 Flemington VRC VICTORIA DERBY 12f Evens* 8.10 2L Fryingpan 8.10 2.41
1Jan 3rd 6 Flemington VRC Champion Stakes 24f 5/2 8.7 nk x 3L Commotion 9.0 5.26.0
3Mar WON 4 Flemington VRC ST LEGER 14+f 1/2* 8.10 1L Guesswork 8.10 3.21
6Mar WON 11 Flemington VRC AUSTRALIAN CUP 18f 2/1 8.3 1L Willeroo 7.10 4.02.0
28Mar WON 3 Randwick AJC ST LEGER 14f   8.10   Morpeth 8.10 3.12.0

1883-84      At FOUR YEARS -   1 starts 0 wins  0 seconds 0 thirds

8Mar 5th 7 Flemington VRC Champion Stakes 24f   9.0   Le Grand 7.12 5.28

Etienne DeMestre was a great trainer but his financial and management skills left a lot to be desired.  And so did his punting.  They impacted on the record of Navigator whose impressive record could have been even better.

Firstly DeMestre messed up the paperwork and all his nominations for the Victorian produce races were declared void after he nominated the horses by 'Crusoe' instead of Robinson Crusoe, so he missed the VRC Sires Produce and the VRC Mares Produce races, both he would have almost certainly have won.

Secondly, although he was regarded as a good thing for the 1882 Melbourne Cup DeMestre scratched him the day before the race because he had invested heavily in doubles of Navigator in the Derby into Sweet William and the long shot Gudarz in the Melbourne Cup and he feared Navigator would beat them both.  Sweet William finished fourth and Gudarz third.

Third, DeMestre had got himself into deep financial trouble investing in rural properties in Queensland and was broken by drought.  He became increasingly desperate.  After the Cup he sent Gudarz out in the Spring Hcp and the horse ran poorly.  He then backed him up and backed him to win the VRC Handicap on the final day and the horse won.  The Leader accused him of pulling Gudarz in one race to get a price and a lighter weight in the another, and 'tickling the pickle jar'.  DeMestre sued David Syme in a protracted libel case, which he lost.  He appealed and lost again.  Then he seemed to buckle under the strain.

The case was heard in the midst of the Autumn racing.  Navigator went unbeaten, becoming the first horse to win the AJC Derby and St Leger, and the VRC Derby and St Leger as well as claiming the Australian Cup but DeMestre was disheartened.  His stud and stable at Terrara was dispersed and he repeatedly tried to sell Navigator.  His fabulous career was over - and so was Navigator's.

In that dispersal he not only lost Robinson Crusoe, who became the Champion sire in Australia in 1887, he also lost Cocoanut and the foal she was carrying who turned out to be the champion Trident.  Etienne's racing friends held a testimonial meeting for him and with the proceeds he retired to a small property at Sutton Forest and amused himself preparing hacks for the Bong Bong picnics.


« Last Edit: 2013-Dec-08, 05:05 PM by tontonan »

Offline tontonan

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« 2013-Dec-12, 12:11 PM Reply #290 »


1892 chestnut horse
(Carbine NZ - Melodious)
Bred by St Albans Stud, Vic
Owned by WR Wilson
Trained by HR Munro

22 starts : 8 wins* 7 seconds 3 thirds
(* includes 2 dead heats)


1894/95  At 2 YEARS - 8 starts 1 win 3 seconds 1 third

20Oct 4th  Caulfield VATC Nursery Handicap 4f 8.5 2/1* 2L Gale 8.8 & Blue Cap 8.4 =1st 0.58.0
3Nov 3rd Flemington VRC Maribyrnong Plate 5f 8.10 6/1 1L Aribi 8.10 1.02.5
8Nov WON Flemington VRC Flying Stakes 7f 6.2 7/1 4L Nobleman 8.0 1.27.25
23Feb Upl Caulfield VATC Oakleigh Plate 5f 8.1 6/1   Whakawatea 9.13


9Mar 2nd Flemington VRC All Aged Stakes 8f 6.12 1/1* hd Hova 9.0 1.41.75
13Apr Upl Randwick AJC Doncaster Handicap 8f 7.11 25/1   Delaware 8.0 1.40.0
15Apr 2nd Randwick AJC Champagne Stakes 6f 9.3 5/4* neck Bob Ray 8.10  
18Apr 2nd Randwick AJC All Aged Stakes 8f 7.1 3/1* 1L Georgic 7.1 1.41.0

1895/96   At 3 YEARS - 13 starts 5 wins, 2 dead heats 4 seconds 1 third

28Sep 2nd Flemington VRC September Stakes 10f 7.9   L Hova 9.2 2.09.75
12Oct WON Caulfield VATC Caulfield Guineas 8f 8.5 7/4* 2L The Parisienne 8.0 1.45.25
2Nov WON Flemington VRC Victoria Derby 12f 8.10 4/5* head Osculator8.10 2.46.0
5Nov 23rd Flemington  VRC Melbourne Cup 16f 7.6 8/1   Auraria 7.4 3.29.0
7Nov 2nd Flemington  VRC Flying Stakes 7f 8.0 6/1 1L Hova 9.2 1.27.75
9Nov =WON Flemington VRC CB Fisher Plate 15f 7.6 9/4 d/heat  Auraria =1st 7.11 3.37.0
29Feb 2nd Flemington VRC St Leger 14+f 8.10 1/2* 3L Cabin Boy 8.10 3.18.5
2Mar 2nd Flemington VRC Australian Cup 18f 8.10 9/2* head Idolator 7.3 3.59. 5
4Mar =WON Flemington VRC Champion Sks 24f 7.12 4/6* d/heat Quiver 8.11 5.23RR
4Apr WON Randwick AJC St Leger 14f 8.10 2/5* L Cabin Boy 8.10 3.12.5
6Apr WON Randwick AJC Sydney Cup 16f 8.12 3/1* L Toreador 7.0 3.31.0
9Apr WON Randwick AJC Cumberland Sks 16f 8.2 4/9* neck Valiant 8.2 3.46
11Apr 3rd Randwick AJC Plate 24f 8.0 1/2* 7L The Harvester 9.0 6.17.0

1896/97  At 4 YEARS - 1 start 0 wins 0 seconds 1 third

10Oct 3rd Caulfield

Caulfield Sks

9f 10.0 8/1 6L Hopscotch 8.13 1.58.5

WALLACE was bred at St Albans Stud.  His sire Carbine had many famous duels with Melos (Goldbrough-Melody) and Wallace was bred from Melos' full sister Melodious.  Fittingly he was named after Carbine's owner Donald Wallace.

He was bred by WR Wilson who got very rich as one of the founding stakeholders in BHP and bought James Wilson's (no relation) famous St Albans Stud at Geelong which was undoubtedly the premier stud in Australia at the time.  Suddenly, in 1895 Wilson decided to disperse the stud - by lottery.  Every thing was raffled from the property itself to its prestigious thoroughbred stock right down to the carts and gigs.  George Adams made the arrangements.  He even raffled Wallace who by that stage had won the Caulfield Guineas and was favourite for the Victoria Derby.  Then he had a dramatic change of heart.  As soon as the lottery was drawn Wilson tried to buy it back from the prize winners, including Wallace.  It cost him 2,500 guineas to buy the colt back with a further 500 guineas owing if the horse won the Victoria Derby - and he did.

The week after the Derby Wallace ran a famous dead heat with the Melbourne Cup and Oaks winning filly Auraria in the 16f CB Fisher Plate ion one of the most celebrated races ever run at Flemington.  In the Autumn Wallace ran another dead heat, this time with his stable mate Quiver for the VRC Champion Stakes before going to Sydney and emulate his sire by winning the Sydney Cup.

Wallace stood for 22 years at stud and proved a great champion and sired the winners of 949 races worth 246,000 including 2 Melbourne Cup winners, 9 Derby and 12 St Leger winners, 6 Oaks winners and 51 individual stakes winners of 157 stakes races..  He was Australia's champion sire in 1916.

Offline tontonan

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« 2013-Dec-12, 12:43 PM Reply #291 »

I think that just about covers the main players in the 19th century.  As I am sure you would be aware it is really hard to know where to draw the line.  I have 24 horses in my Colonial Hall of Fame and I am considering adding a dozen more but if I did that I know I would want to add another dozen.

I am not sure Wallace meets your criteria of 5 Group 1 equivalents but the VRC Champion Stakes for example was certainly one of the very best races in Australia at the time but didn't survive long enough to get Group status.  Likewise the CB Fisher Plate was a top shelf race, at least in 1896.  The field was small but select (it also including the WFA crack Hova who was left behind by the 3YOs) and universally considered to be the race of the year.  These things are very difficult to apply in retrospect as the status of races is always changing ... but you do need some selection criteria, otherwise you end up with 36+ horses in your colonial hall of fame :shy:

I use a floating sort of criteria based on (a) outstanding racetrack performance  (b) contribution to the breed (as a sire or dam) and (c) for want of a better word, 'fame'....or perhaps historical significance.

Pring, for example, doesn't include Martini Henry which is fair enough because his career is brief, and after a spectacular start, ultimately disappointing.  I have included him because he will be forever famous for winning the Victoria Derby at his first start and the Melbourne Cup at his second but also because he is the son of the great mare Sylvia and the breed changing sire Musket.

There are a couple of horses I may yet add.  First King was regarded by James Wilson as the best horse he ever trained and he had a superior head to head record than Chester.  And The Australian Peer is a forgotten horse but his head to head record with Abercorn was superior also.  Then there is the Queenslander Le Grand, a truly outstanding horse who is probably neglected because he is a Queenslander - and most of all by the Queenslanders themselves. 

I went to the Queensland Hall of Fame to look for information on the horse and there was no mention of him.  There was a big deal made about Bob Bentley though.    :sad:

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2013-Dec-12, 06:15 PM Reply #292 »
doesn't include Martini Henry which is fair enough because his career is brief,

How much briefer than Bernborough's at the top level?

Offline timw

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« 2013-Dec-14, 03:17 AM Reply #293 »

I think I have tracked down all the Champion Stakes held.  It was even held in New Zealand before it became a  fixture at Flemington.  There is no doubt for a while it was very important race (the Cox Plate of its time) and attracted a lot of media attention.  The fields were often small and at 3 miles was never going to survive.  I sometimes wonder whether turning the clock back and running a 3200m WFA race would add something to racing (eg Sydney Cup at WFA).  But I suspect the time has passed and races such as the Ascot Gold Cup (is the Prix Du Cadran still over 4000m) are the remnants of a golden staying era.   

I hope to flesh out all the Champion Stakes details sooner rather than later.  I might have a go over the XMAS break.

Offline firezuki

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« 2013-Dec-14, 04:46 AM Reply #294 »
How much briefer than Bernborough's at the top level?

Did Bernborough kick you in the nuts some time back or something?  You seem to think he was a damp squib. 

Offline timw

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« 2013-Dec-15, 11:14 AM Reply #295 »
Delta (AUS) 1946                                 
41 starts, 22 wins (6 x Group 1), 6 seconds and 2 thirds.  Win % 53.7, Place % 73.2.                                  
TWO YEARS:  1948-1949  Starts 4: 2-1-1-0                                 
2nd-18   19/03/1949.   1L x hd   Canterbury, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Two-Year-Old Maiden Stakes   6f.   1207m.   8.5.   53kg   1.16.5.   14/1.   Charioteer 8.5 4/1 1st
1st-19   28/05/1949.   3L x 0.5L   Canterbury, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Two-Year-Old Maiden Stakes (C&G)   6f.   1207m.   8.5.   53kg   1.16.0.   7/4EF   Beau Caste 8.5 6/1 2nd
1st-13   8/06/1949.   2.5L x 1L   run at Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Two-Year- Old Encourage Hcp   Abt 7f.   Abt 1400m.   9.0.   57kg   1.32.0.   10/9F   Artois 8.0 16/1 2nd
3rd-11   13/06/1949.   2L x 1.5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Winter Juvenile Hcp   Abt 8f.   Abt 1600m.   9.7.   60kg   1.47.75.   5/2F   Brother Arthur 7.8 16/1 1st
THREE YEARS:  1949-1950  Starts 13: 5-3-1-4                                 
8th-13   27/08/1949.   3L x 2L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Hobartville Stakes   7f. 24y.   1430m.   8.10.   55.5kg   1.29.25.   7/2EF   Chastise 8.5 25/1 1st
1st-14   3/09/1949.   1.5L x 0.5L   Canterbury, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Canterbury Guineas (G1)   9f.   1810m.   8.5.   53kg   1.57.0.   9/1.   Beau China 8.5 9/2 2nd
2nd-16   17/09/1949.   1L x nk   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rosehill Guineas   10f.   2011m.   8.5.   53kg   25.09.0.   7/4F   Thracian Lad 8.5 8/1 1st
2nd-20   1/10/1949.   0.75L x 2.5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Derby   12f.   2414m.   8.10.   55.5kg   02:34.0   2/1F   Playboy 8.10 10/1 1st
1st-13   22/10/1949.   0.5L x 3L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC W.S. Cox Plate (G1)   10f.   2011m.   7.11.   49.5kg   2.04.75.   20/1.   Comic Court 9.0 5/4F 2nd
1st-18   29/10/1949.   1.5L x DH   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Victoria Derby (G1)   12f.   2414m.   8.10.   55.5kg   2.32.75.   6/4F   Dickens 8.10 20/1 DH 2nd
5th-31   1/11/1949.   1.5L x lg nk   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Melbourne Cup   16f.   3219m.   cd 7.7.   47.5kg   3.28.5.   6/1F   Foxzami 8.8 16/1 1st
4th-14   25/02/1950.   Nk x hd   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC St. George Stakes   9f.   1810m.   8.3.   52kg   1.51.0.   6/1.   Comic Court 9.0 9/4F 1st
1st-6   11/03/1950.   8L x sht hd   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC St Leger Stakes   14f.   2816m.   8.10.   55.5kg   2.57.75.   1/4F   Playboy 8.10 6/1 2nd
1st-3   15/03/1950.   3L x 12L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC King's Plate   14f.   2816m.   8.2.   52kg   3.03.0.   4/7F   Carbon Copy 9.0 6/4 2nd
2nd-6   25/03/1950.   0.75L x 3L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rawson Stakes   9f.   1810m.   8.4.   52.5kg   1.57.25.   4/6F   Dickens 8.4 7/1 1st
5th-6   1/04/1950.   1.25L x 3L   run at Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Chipping Norton Stakes   10f. 25y.   2053m.   8.6.   53.5kg   2.15.75.   2/1.   Carbon Copy 9.0 11/2 1st
3rd-4   8/04/1950.   6L x 8L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC St. Leger   14f.   2816m.   8.10.   55.5kg   3.05.75.   5/2.   Playboy 8.10 5/2 1st
FOUR YEARS:  1950-1951  Starts 8: 3-1-0-4                                 
6th-10   26/08/1950.   4L x 1.75L   run at Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Warwick Stakes   7f. 20y.   1427m.   9.0.   57kg   1.29.0.   Dead, 15/1.   San Domenico 9.0 1/1 1st
1st-11   9/09/1950.    hd x 0.75L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   Tattersall's Club Chelmsford Stakes   9f. 32y.   1840m.   9.0.   57kg   1.53.75.   8/1.   Snowstream 9.4 9/2 2nd
1st-6   30/09/1950.   0.5L x hd   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Colin Stephen Stakes   12f.   2414m.   9.0.   57kg   2.34.5.   8/11F   Thracian Lad 8.11 16/1 2nd
16th-18   2/10/1950.   Nse x nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Metropolitan   13f.   2615m.   8.13.   56.5kg   2.48.75.   5/1EF   Conductor 7.11 7/1 1st
1st-5   7/10/1950.   0.75L x 2.5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC The Randwick Plate   16f.   3219m.   9.0.   57kg   3.28.5.   9/4EF   Sir Falcon 9.6 9/4EF 2nd
5th-12   28/10/1950.   Nk x 2L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC W.S. Cox Plate   10f.   2011m.   9.0.   57kg   2.06.25.   11/8F   Alister 7.11 4/1 1st
5th-9   4/11/1950.   1.25L x hd   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC L. K. S. Mackinnon Stakes   10f.   2011m.   9.0.   57kg   2.05.75.   Good, 4/1.   Comic Court 9.3 7/2 1st
2nd-4   11/11/1950.   0.75L x 1L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC C. B. Fisher Plate   12f.   2414m.   9.0.   57kg   2.35.25.   7/2.   Playboy 9.0 7/2 1st
FIVE YEARS:  1951-1952  Starts 14: 11-1-0-2                                 
5th-13   28/08/1951.   1.25L x 1.5L   run at Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Warwick Stakes   7f. 17⅔y.   1424m.   9.3.   58.5kg   1.24.5.   Good, 14/1   San Domenico 9.0 1st
1st-7   8/09/1951.   3L x 3L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   Tattersall's Club Jubilee Chelmsford Stakes   9f. 25y.   1833m.   9.4.   59kg   1.52.25.   Dead, 9/4   Hydrogen 7.9 5/4F 2nd
1st-5   29/09/1951.   Nse x 5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Colin Stephen Stakes   12f.   2414m.   9.5.   59.5kg   2.36.75.   Good, 4/9F   Aristocrat 9.0 5/2 2nd
1st-16   1/10/1951.   0.5L x 1.5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC The Metropolitan (G1)   13f.   2615m.   9.5.   59.5kg   2.44.5.   Fast, 7/1   Skystreamer cd 6.12 9/1 2nd
2nd-5   6/10/1951.   1L x 2L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Randwick Plate   16f.   3219m.   9.6.   60kg   3.38.5.   Good, 1/1F   Aristocrat 9.0 3/1 1st
1st-7   3/11/1951.   2L x 0.5L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC L.K.S Mackinnon Stakes (G1)   10f.   2011m.   9.1.   57.5kg   2.03.0.   Good, 6/4F   Akbar 9.0 7/1 2nd
1st-28   6/11/1951.   0.75L x 3L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Melbourne Cup (G1)   16f.   3219m.   9.5.   59.5kg   3.24.25.   Good, 10/1   Akbar (NZ) 8.6 7/1 2nd
1st-6   1/03/1952.   1.5L x hd   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC St George Stakes   9f.   1810m.   9.2.   58kg   1.52.75.   Good, 9/4F   Ellerslie 8.13 4/1 2nd
1st-4   10/03/1952.   3L x hd   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Ercildoune Stakes   10f.   2011m.   9.2.   58kg   2.06.25.   Good, 1/3F   Bronton 8.4 16/1 2nd
1st-8   15/03/1952.   2L x 3L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Queen's Plate   14f.   2816m.   9.3.   58.5kg   2.59.5.   Good, 1/6F   Clutha 9.0 8/1 2nd
1st-3   22/03/1952.   3.5L x 7L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Carbine Stakes   18f.   3621m.   9.4.   59kg   4.06.75.   Heavy, 1/9F   Free Kick 9.1 8/1 2nd
1st-5   5/04/1952.   1.25L x 3L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Chipping Norton Stakes   10f. 27⅔y.   2055m.   9.2.   58kg   2.07.5.   Dead, 4/7F   Hydrogen 8.6 5/2 2nd
8th-12   14/04/1952.   Hd x 8L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Sydney Cup   16f.   3219m.   9.7.   60kg   3.37.25.   Heavy, 4/1EF   Opulent 7.1 16/1 1st
1st-4   16/04/1952.   Hd x 6L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Cumberland Stakes   14f.   2816m.   9.3.   58.5kg   3.06.75.   Dead, 4/5F   Clutha 9.0 4/1 2nd
SIX YEARS:  1952-1953  Starts 2: 1-0-0-1                                 
7th-9   23/08/1952.    hd x sht hd   Warwick Farm, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Warwick Stakes   7f.   1408m.   9.3.   58.5kg   1.27.5.   Dead, 14/1   Foreign Exchange 7.4 14/1 1st
1st-8   13/09/1952.   4L x 1.25L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   Tattersall's Club Chelmsford Stakes   9f.   1810m.   9.4.   59kg   1.49.25 (ANZR)   Good, 8/11F   Hydrogen 9.0 7/1 2nd
« Last Edit: 2016-May-18, 07:09 PM by tontonan »

Offline tontonan

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« 2013-Dec-22, 02:53 PM Reply #296 »

I would love to see a 3 mile WFA race just to see how the riders would approach it these days.  I have studied the 3 milers with fascination.  The fact that several leading juveniles who were much too fleet for their peers grew up to win 3 mile races just increases my fascination with how they were run. 

They were run extremely tactically often at a ridiculously slow pace rather like a cycling track match where the riders engage in a game of watch-me-watch-you until one or the other makes a break and sprints for the line.

 Other 3 mile races saw horses race to the front and open huge breaks on the opposition.  Usually they would fall in a heap and be caught up by the classier horses - but not always.  Wycombe upset Abercorn and The Australian Peer in the 1888 Randwick Plate when they waited too long to begin the chase.

The reluctance to actually race the distance was part of the reason these races failed.  The Barb knocked people's socks off because he was taken directly to the front and raced the distance - which was not the custom.  His record of 5.38 was brought down in the following decades but only by about 10 seconds (by comparison his Melbourne Cup time was reduced by 15 seconds by the end of the century).

That the small but classy fields were reluctant to race the distance saw the VRC introduce a condition that only half the stakes would be paid unless a benchmark time was breached.  This condition was also taken up by the AJC but ironically it hastened the demise of the 3 miler as the championship distance.  The speed horses progressively pulled out of these contests and left them to horses that could 'one-bat' the distance.  There is a notable decline in winners of the 3 milers that had distinguished themselves at shorter trips as time wore on.

In their hay day there were some extraordinary contests.  The dead heats run by Volunteer and Tarragon (Champions Sks), and Dagworth and Reprieve (AJC Queens Plate) were followed by reruns on the  same day which Tarragon won by only a length and Dagworth by just a neck.

The 3YOs had a significant advantage if they had the class to compete at 3 miles, and 'class' involved the ability to relax and trot along until required to sprint.  This what brought Martini Henri undone.  He pulled and would not come back under Hales and just burned up like a roman candle.

I found the following post amongst my files - the results of the Australian Champion Sweepstakes.  I need to add margins and betting yet.

Offline tontonan

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« 2013-Dec-22, 02:55 PM Reply #297 »
The Champion Cup
3 miles Set Weights


Year Venue Winner   Second Third Time
1873 Launceston Leo TAS Blue Peter Merry Toes 5.59.0
1872 not run          
1871 Launceston# Romula VIC Tim Whiffler Strop 5.49.0
1869 Launceston Strop  TAS Glencoe Warwick 5.58.0
1868 Launceston Fireworks  NSW Tim Whiffler Strop 5.48.0
1867 Launceston Fishhook VIC Volunteer Warwick 5.44.0
1867 Flemington The Barb NSW Volunteer Cowra 5.39.0R
1866 Launceston Strop TAS Ben Bolt Rose of Denmark 5.48.0
1866 Flemington Tarragon* NSW Volunteer Panic (GB) 5.47.0
1865 Christchurch Ladybird (NZ) NZ Miss Lee (NZ) Stormbird (NZ) 5.56.0
1865 Launceston Panic (GB) TAS Musidora Poet 5.53.0
1864 Wagga Wagga Mormon VIC Ada Union Jack 6.50.0
1863 Dunedin Ladybird (NZ) NZ Mormon Revoke 5.55.0
1863 Ballarat Barwon VIC Mormon Archer 6.04.0
1862 Geelong Talleyrand  NSW Barwon Archer 6.03.0
1861 Hobart Mormon VIC Shillelagh Panic (GB) 6.14.0
1861 Ipswich Zoe NSW Ben Bolt Von Tromp 5.50.0
1860 Randwick Zoe NSW Windrake Veno 6.01.0
1859 Flemington Flying Buck  VIC Zoe Nutwith 5.57.5
* Dead Heat. Tarragon won the rematch by a length

# There was no race in 1870 as the date of the meeting was changed from December to February

Note : Flying Buck was owned by WC Yuille who would later edit and publish the Australian Stud book
Five winners - Zoe, Talleyrand, The Barb and Fireworks -  were all owned by John Tait.  He also owned the runners up Zoe, Volunteer and Glencoe
Ladybird, the winner of the two NZ editions was owned by Henry Redwood

After  1873 it was decided to conduct a handicap Launceston Cup modeled on the Melbourne Cup instead of the Champions Cup.
In 1876 the VRC reinvented the race for its New Year Day meeting as the Champion Stakes (24f).  It was renamed the King's Plate in 1916 and reduced in distance to 16f in 1918.  It was further reduced in distance to 12f in 1931 when won by Phar Lap.  It was not held between 1942 and 1946 and resumed as a 14f event in 1947 and renamed the Queen's Plate in 1952.  The distance was further reduced to 10f in 1958 .  It was last run at 2000m in 1976 when won by Taras Bulba.  In 1977, with Queen Elizabeth in attendance the race was finally run as the House of Windsor Stakes at 1400m, won by Family of Man
The Australian Cup became a 2000m WFA event in 1979.

Offline ratsack

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« 2013-Dec-23, 06:19 PM Reply #298 »
well done guys mer...............  etc


Offline tontonan

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« 2013-Dec-23, 11:09 PM Reply #299 »
Merry christmas to you too rat.  -())=(

I have done some homework to back up my assertions.

In the Australian Champion Sweepstakes results there were only 2 three year old winners  - The Barb and Fireworks, and they were the two very best 3YO's .of their times.  But between 1876 and 1900, nineteen of the 25 winners of the 3 mile VRC Champion Stakes were 3YO's despite the fact that the WFA scale was dramatically modified to lift the weights for 3YO's from 7.1 (45kg) which Richmond carried in 1876  to 7.12  (50kg).  It didn't stop them.  The 3YO's continued to dominate.

I made the point earlier in relation to 2YO's winning the All Aged Stakes :  the improvement in the colonies young horses was vivid through the later part of the 19th century, and that was the measure of the improvement of the breed.

This is a photo of Wallace and Quiver dead heating for the 1895 Champion Stakes.  It looks like Wallace (on the outside) has his head in front but bear in mind the angle.  The Judge's box at the bottom right of the picture is housed in the same structure as the chronometer which timed the races.  Ahead of the judges box is the 'needle's eye' through which the judge would look as the heads would hit the line.  Another interesting aspect of the this photo - apart from the refreshing lack of advertising - is the stone wall feature jump on the steeple course and the people spread across 'the flat'.  Admittance to the flat was free.  You only paid to get into the enclosures.

In 1895 you were still entitled to a deciding heat to determine the prize but on this occasion William Robert Wilson, the owner of Wallace, and James Wilson Jr. the owner trainer of Quiver shook hands and agreed to split the prize.   

WR Wilson was one of the original directors who put the prospectus together for an outfit known as the Broken Hill Proprietary company and was the master of St Albans Stud in Geelong which was established by James Wilson Sr. (no relation) the father of James Wilson Jr. who was a very interesting fellow in his own right.  He had success riding for his father and rode two runners up in the Melbourne Cup.  Then he gained weight and became the captain of the Geelong Football Club, and then its president before returning to racing as a trainer.  In addition to Quiver he was the original owner of Newhaven and trained Merriwee for Herbert Power to win the 1899 Melbourne Cup.