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Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-14, 07:23 PM Reply #400 »
This from the Wiki


Most wins in one season
Jorrocks won 30 of his 31 starts in 1846.

The horses with ten or more race wins in one season a

    30 wins – Jorrocks (1833) also known as The Iron Gelding, won 30 of his 31 starts in 1846, carrying no less than nine stone (126 lbs) over the usual distances of two or three miles.[26]

Footnote [26] cites Barrie...badly.

I have stuck my bib in to see if I can get it corrected.  If it doesn't happen I will have a crack it myself.

Offline timw

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« 2014-May-17, 04:58 AM Reply #401 »
RAJAH SAHIB (NZ) 1965                                 
72 starts, 14 wins (5 x Group 1), 9 seconds and 15 thirds.  Win % 19.4, Place % 52.8.                                  
Won NZD 8,395  before crossing the Tasman and went on to win a further AUD 139,315 in Australia.                                     
TWO YEARS:  1967-1968  Starts 8: 4-0-2-2                                 
11th-15   2/03/1968.   1.25L x 2L   Trentham, Wellington, NI, NZ   WeRC Plunket Nursery Hcp   6f.   1207m.   cd 7.9.   cd48.5kg   1.12.0.   Fast   Eugenie cd 7.8 1st
8th-17   16/03/1968.   1L x 3L   Awapuni, Palmerston North, NI, NZ   MwtuRC Cloverlea Nursey Hcp   6f.   1207m.   7.9.   48.5kg   1.13.6.   Firm   Right Royal 8.12 1st
3rd-14   23/03/1968.   4L x nse   Awapuni, Palmerston North, NI, NZ   MwtuRC Stoneyhurst Hcp (1st Division)   6f.   1207m.   7.7.   47.5kg   1.12.2.   Fast   Hagen's Gold 8.3 1st
1st-12   6/04/1968.   3L x 0.5L   Hastings, NI, NZ   HBJC Juvenile Hcp   6f.   1207m.   7.7.   47.5kg   1.14.4.   Easy   Royal Tudor 9.2 2nd
1st-11   13/04/1968.   1L x 2L   Ellerslie, Auckland, NI, NZ   AuRC Onslow Stakes Hcp (1st Division)   6f.   1207m.   8.0.   51kg   1.15.2.   Soft   Bardall 8.2 2nd
1st-14   15/04/1968.   8L x 3L   Ellerslie, Auckland, NI, NZ   AuRC Victoria Hcp   6f.   1207m.   8.5.   53kg   1.16.0.   Heavy & holding   Toogara 7.7 2nd
1st-14   20/04/1968.   8L x lg nk   Ellerslie, Auckland, NI, NZ   AuRC Wills Championship Stakes (G1)   7f.   1408m.   8.5.   53kg   1.30.6.   Heavy   Mayo Gold 8.10 2nd
3rd-18   8/05/1968.   Sht L x ½ hd   Trentham, Wellington, NI, NZ   WeRC Pacific Hcp   6f.   1207m.   9.7.   60kg   1.16.25.   Heavy   Mayo Gold 9.5 1st
THREE YEARS:  1968-1969  Starts 17: 3-3-2-9                                 
3rd-5   24/08/1968.   0.75L x 1L   Warwick Farm, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Warwick Stakes   7f.   1408m.   7.11.   49.5kg   1.24.6.   Dead, 7/2.   Swift Peter 9.0 5/1 1st
5th-9   7/09/1968.   Sht ½ hd x 3.5L   Canterbury, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Canterbury Guineas   9f. 80y.   1884m.   8.5.   53kg   1.56.3.   Good, 4/1   Broker's Tip 8.5 4/1 1st
2nd-11   21/09/1968.   0.5L x 1.5L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rosehill Guineas   10f.   2011m.   8.5.   53kg   2.03.0.   Good, 16/1.   Royal Account 8.5 20/1 1st
4th-14   5/10/1968.   Sht ½ hd x 0.75L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Derby   12f.   2414m.   8.10.   55.5kg   2.31.2.   Good, 8/1.   Wilton Park 8.10 8/1 1st
1st-17   12/10/1968.   1L x sht ½ hd   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Guineas (G1)   8f.   1609m.   8.10.   55.5kg   1.37.7.   Good, 8/1   Crewman 8.10 5/1 2nd
1st-13   26/10/1968.   2.5L x 2.5L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC W.S. Cox Plate (G1)   10f.   2011m.   7.11.   49.5kg   2.04.8.   Slow, 7/4F   Fileur 9.0 6/1 2nd
4th-15   2/11/1968.   Nk x 1L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Victoria Derby   12f.   2414m.   8.10.   55.5kg   2.31.0.   Fast, 9/4EF   Always There 8.10 9/4EF 1st
9th-12    8/03/1969.   2L x 0.5L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Dundas Flying   6f.   1207m.   8.7.   54kg   1.11.1.   Good   Karachi 8.3 9/4F 1st
2nd-9   22/03/1969.   2.25L x 1L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Canadian Pacific Air Quality Hcp   7f.   1408m.   8.1.   51.5kg   1.24.2.   Dead, 5/1.   Foresight 9.3 6/4F 1st
12th-25   5/04/1969.   0.5L x sht hd   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Doncaster Hcp   8f.   1609m.   8.7.   54kg   1.35.9.   Good,    Bye Bye 8.4 66/1 1st
1st-7   19/04/1969.   Nk x sht ½ hd   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Gladesville Flying Hcp   6f.   1207m.   8.0.   51kg   1.12.6.   Dead, 11/8F.   Baguse 8.4 5/1 2nd
6th-13   17/05/1969.   1L x 0.75L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC EED White Lightning Hcp   5f.   1005m.   8.6.   53.5kg   0.59.3   Dead   Mister Hush 8.11 2/1F 1st
2nd-16   31/05/1969.   1.5L x 1.5L   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC J.T. Delaney Quality Hcp   7f. less 68y.   1346m.   8.11.   56kg   1.21.7.   Holding, 3/1EF.   Dual Control 8.5 3/1EF 1st
17th-20   14/06/1969.   Nk x 0.75L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC Stradbroke Hcp   7f.   1408m.   8.8.   54.5kg   1.22.4. (RR)   Good,    Prince Medes 8.1 7/1 1st
10th-15   28/06/1969.   Lg hd x nse   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    Tattersall's RC WJ Healy Stakes   6f.   1207m.   8.6.   53.5kg   1.11.4.   Good,    Kalamia 8.8 9/2 1st
7th-20   5/07/1969.   2.75L x 1L   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Doomben "Ten Thousand" Hcp   7f. less 68y.   1346m.   8.6.   53.5kg   1.18.1. (RR)   Good,    Black Onyx 8.8 8/1 1st
3rd-19   12/07/1969.   0.75L x sht nk   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Doomben Cup   11f.   2212m.   8.5.   53kg   2.15.6.   Holding, 4/1F.   Dual Control 8.0 10/1 1st
FOUR YEARS:  1969-1970  Starts 15: 1-3-6-5                                 
3rd-8   26/08/1969.   0.75L x 0.5L   run at Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Warwick Stakes   7f.   1408m.   9.0.   57kg   1.28.9.   Heavy, 13/2.   Fair Law (NZ) 8.3 11/4F 1st
2nd-8   3/09/1969.   Nk x 3L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Burragorang Hcp   6f.   1207m.   8.6.   53.5kg   1.11.9.   Good, 2/1F.   Boy Dandy 7.7 5/2 1st
4th-16   13/09/1969.   ½ nk x 1.5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   Tattersall's Club Tramway Hcp   7f.   1408m.   8.8.   54.5kg   1.23.6.   Good,    Black Onyx 9.3 8/1 1st
3rd-4   20/09/1969.   0.75L x sht nk   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Theo Marks Quality Hcp   7f.   1408m.   8.7.   54kg   1.25.8.   Good, 4/1.   Nausori 8.12 5/21st
22nd-22   4/10/1969.   Lg hd x 1.25L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Epsom Hcp   8f.   1609m.   8.9.   55kg   1.37.9.   Good, 20/1   Broker's Tip 8.0 8/1 1st
10th-14   4/04/1970.   0.75L x sht nk   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Captain Cook Hcp   7f. less 68y.   1346m.   8.7.   54kg   1.19.3.   Good,    Kalamia 9.0 3/1F 1st
3rd-14   18/04/1970.   2L x 1L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC Endeavour Flying Hcp   7f.   1408m.   8.6.   53.5kg   1.24.8.   Holding, 7/4F.   Flying Ace 8.4 10/1 1st
1st-14   25/04/1970.   1.25L x ½ hd   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Coral Sea Hcp   6f.   1207m.   8.7.   54kg   1.10.8.   Good, 7/4F.   Golven 8.2 25/1 2nd
3rd-11   2/05/1970.   0.75L x sht hd   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Newmarket Hcp   7f. less 68y.   1346m.   8.10.   55.5kg   1.19.0.   Good, 3/1F.   Wine and Song 8.5 5/1 1st
2nd-14   16/05/1970.   0.75L x 1.5L   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Bernborough Hcp   8f.   1609m.   8.10.   55.5kg   1.36.7.   Good, 11/4F.   Golven 8.9 9/2 1st
7th-12   30/05/1970.   1L x 0.5L   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Delaney Quality Hcp   7f. less 68y.   1346m.   8.8.   54.5kg   1.19.0.   Track?   Cabochon 8.13 8/1 1st
15th-17   13/06/1970.   1.5L x sht nk   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC Stradbroke Hcp   7f.   1408m.   8.6.   53.5kg   1.22.3. (RR)   Good,    Divide and Rule 8.11 5/1F 1st
3rd-7   20/06/1970.   2L x sht nk   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC June Hcp   10f.   2011m.   8.7.   54kg   2.05.6.   Good, 4/1.   Desert Beau 7.7 10/1 1st
3rd-13   4/07/1970.   Nk x 1L   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Carnival Hcp   10f.   2011m.   8.5.   53kg   2.02.4.   Good, 16/1.   Golveen 8.8 3/1F 1st
2nd-15   11/07/1970.   2L x nk   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Doomben Cup   11f.   2212m.   8.3.   52kg   2.16.6.   Good, 40/1.   Divide and Rule 9.0 1/1F 1st
FIVE YEARS:  1970-1971  Starts 20: 6-3-3-8                                 
3rd-9   15/08/1970.   0.75L x 0.75L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC Tullamarine Hcp   8f.   1609m.   9.0.   57kg   1.40.4.   Slow, 2/1.   Kumiss 8.7 4/5F 1st
3rd-18   22/08/1970.   2L x 2L   Sandown, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Grange Hcp   8f.   1609m.   9.0.   57kg   1.39.9.   Slow, 11/2.   The Sporran 7.11 9/2 1st
6th-10   5/09/1970.   2L x sht ½ hd   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Heatherlie Hcp   10f.   2011m.   8.12.   56kg   2.05.3.   Slow   Moomba Fox 7.12 9/1 1st
1st-13   12/09/1970.   Hd x 8L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Lord Mayor's Plate   12f.   2414m.   9.0.   57kg   2.29.0.   Slow, 8/1.   Moomba Fox 8.8 11/8F 2nd
4th-11   24/09/1970.   Lg nk x 3L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Metropolitan Hcp   12f.   2414m.   9.2.   58kg   2.29.7.   Good   Moomba Fox 8.8 5/4F 1st
4th-5   3/10/1970.   1L x sht ½ hd   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Turnbull Stakes   12f.   2414m.   9.5.   59.5kg   2.32.1.   Fast,    Arctic Symbol 9.5 9/2 1st
1st-16   12/10/1970.   Lg nk x 1.25L    Morphettville, Adelaide, SA, AUS   SAJC George Adams Invitation Stakes   Abt 8f.   Abt 1600m.   9.0.   57kg   1.36.3.   Fast, 4/1F.   Romantic Son 8.0 7/1 2nd
5th-16   17/10/1970.   0.5L x 2.5L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Cup   12f.   2414m.   8.7.   54kg   2.31.2.   Good, 33/1.   Beer Street 7.11 15/1 1st
9th-16   24/10/1970.   3L x nk   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC W S Cox Plate   10f.   2011m.   9.4.   59kg   2.05.5.   Good, 10/1.   Abdul 7.12 33/1 1st
3rd-7   1/02/1971.   8L x 2L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC Australia Day Hcp   6f.   1207m.   9.3.   58.5kg   1.15.9.   Heavy, 6/1.   Zambari 7.11 1/1F 1st
4th-9   10/02/1971.   0.75L x 1.5L   Pakenham, VIC, AUS   PakRC Pakenham Cup   8f. 143y.   1740m.   9.3.   58.5kg   1.50.2.   Track?   Tetrabine 8.10 3/1 1st
2nd-9   20/02/1971.   ½ nk x nk   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC St. George Stakes   9f.   1810m.   9.2.   58kg   1.50.3.   Fast, 20/1.   Gay Icarus 8.3 6/4 1st
1st-14   24/02/1971.   2.5L x nk   Mornington, VIC, AUS   MornRC Mornington Cup   10f.   2011m.   8.12.   56kg   2.05.0.   6/4F.   Mateship 8.1 8/1 2nd
2nd-19   8/03/1971.   ½ hd x 4L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Australian Cup   10f.   2011m.   8.10.   55.5kg   2.02.1.   Fast, 7/1.   Gay Icarus 7.10 9/4F 1st
2nd-14   20/03/1971.   1.75L x 2L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC Alister Clark Stakes   8f.   1609m.   9.1.   57.5kg   1.36.3.   Fast, 11/2.   Tauto 9.1 11/2 1st
1st-24   10/04/1971.   1.25L x 1.5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Doncaster Hcp (G1)   8f.   1609m.   8.8   54.5kg   1.34.7.   Good, 7/1   Tauto 8.13 5/1F 2nd
1st-13   24/04/1971.   2.5L x 0.5L   Victoria Park, Adelaide, SA, AUS   AdRC Birthday Cup   10f.   2011m.   9.5.   59.5kg   2.10.1.   Heavy, 15/10F.   Lancelot (NZ) 8.8 4/1 2nd
1st-20   12/06/1971.   Hd x 2L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC Stradbroke Hcp (G1)   7f.   1408m.   9.2   58kg   1.22.7.   Good, 16/1   Ricochet 9.3 5/4F 2nd
4th-18   26/06/1971.   0.5L x 0.75L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    Tattersall's RC Tattersall's Cup   10.5f.   2112m.   9.7.   60kg   2.10.0.   Track?   Planet Kingdom 8.4 9/1 1st
6th-20   10/07/1971.   Nse x 1.25L   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Doomben Cup   11f.   2212m.   9.5.   59.5kg   2.15.8.   Good,    Tails 9.2 9/1 1st
* Not in ATR index                                 
SIX YEARS:  1971-1972  Starts 12: 0-0-2-10                                 
9th-9   11/09/1971.   0.75L x sht ½ hd   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   Tattersall's Club Tramway Hcp   7f.   1408m.   9.10.   62kg   1.22.8.   Good,    Cast Iron 7.12 4/1 1st
3rd-8   25/09/1971.   1.25L x sht ½ hd   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Hill Stakes   8.5f.   1709m.   9.4.   59kg   1.43.1.   Good, 7/1.   Baguette 9.0 1/1F 1st
5th-21   2/10/1971.   3L x sht nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Epsom Hcp   8f.   1609m.   9.8.   61kg   1.35.8.   Good, 14/1.   Gunsynd 8.10 11/2 1st
3rd-5   9/10/1971.   ½ nk x 1L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC George Main Stakes   8f.   1609m.   9.3.   58.5kg   1.36.5.   Dood, 7/2.   Baguette 9.0 5/4F 1st
5th-13   23/10/1971.   0.5L x 1.75L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC W.S, Cox Plate   10f.   2011m.   9.4.   59kg   2.03.9.   Good, 9/2.   Tauto 9.4 12/1 1st
4th-9   30/10/1971.   0.75L x sht ½ hd   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Mackinnon Stakes   10f.   2011m.   9.4.   59kg   2.01.6.   Fast, 9/4F.   Skint Dip (NZ) 9.4 13/4 1st
8th-13   6/11/1971.   5L x 1L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC George Adams Hcp   8f.   1609m.   9.6.   60kg   1.37.6.   Slow, 9/1.   Gunsynd 9.3 5/2F 1st
8th-12   19/02/1972.   1.5L x nk   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Lightning Stakes   5f.   1005m.   9.0.   57kg   1.00.7.   Heavy,   Zambari 9.0 8/1 1st
4th-13   4/03/1972.   2.5L x sht ½ hd   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Futurity Stakes   7f.   1408m.   10.0.   63.5kg   1.25.5   Good,    Gunsynd 9.13 7/4F 1st
6th-18   11/03/1972.   0.5L x 0.75L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Newmarket Hcp run as Malayan Racing Association Cup   6f.   1207m.   9.0.   57kg   1.09.3.   Fast,   Crown 8.4 9/1 1st
4th-9   25/03/1972.   1.75L x 3L   Warwick Farm, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Liverpool City Cup   7f.   1408m.   9.0.   57kg   1.23.0.   Good,    Zambari 8.13 9/2 1st
18th-20   1/04/1972.   0.75L x hd   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Doncaster Hcp   8f.   1609m.   9.1.   57.5kg   1.35.3.   Good,    Gunsynd 9.7 10/9F 1st
« Last Edit: 2016-May-18, 07:22 PM by tontonan »

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-19, 01:18 AM Reply #402 »
Here is one you don't hear a lot about. 

If a filly won the Caulfield Guineas, the Derby, the Oaks, both St Legers and 3 WFA races these days you would never hear the end of it but we have largely forgotten about Lady Wallace.

 It could be said that it was a very poor year for Australian colts but same could not be said for the Kiwis.  Noctuiform beat Sun God by 8 lengths in the AJC Derby and Lady Wallace was 8 lengths further back in third place.  The time was a sensation. 2.32.5 and carved a massive 4.5 seconds off Sylvanite's record from the previous year. 

As a point of comparison later in the season Carbine's boy Spearmint smashed the record in the English Derby and ran 2.36.8.

Sun God beat Lady Wallace by 4 lengths in the New Stakes at their next outing but when the two Kiwi colts went home Lady Wallace took all before her winning seven on the trot before Gladsome stopped her narrowly in the All Aged Stakes.

1902 bay filly
Wallace - Lady Mostyn
28 starts 14 wins 4 seconds 3 thirds
50% win 75% place   Ave win: 8.6f

Date #Course RaceDist WgtSecond Time

1904-05 At TWO YEARS 7starts 3 wins 1 second 2 thirds

28Nov4th Warwick FarmAJC Nursery Handicap 4f8.0 Master Joe 8.20.50¾
10Dec3rd RosehillSTC Nursery Handicap 5f7.3 Binnia
28DecWON RandwickAJC Nursery Handicap 5f7.6 Lochino 6.121.04¾
31DecWON RandwickAJC Juvenile Stakes 5f7.8 Binnia
02JanWON RandwickAJC Nursery Handicap 5½f8.4 Cushla
22Apr2nd RandwickAJC Sires Produce Sks x4L 6f8.7 Binnia
26AprWON RandwickAJC Easter Stakes x½L 7f8.5 Istria 8.51.27½
24Apr3rd RandwickAJC Champagne Sks x1½L 6f8.8 Charles Stuart

1905-06 At THREE YEARS 13 starts 9 wins 2 seconds 1 third

10Aug4th RandwickTatt's Spring Handicap 10f7.8 Lucknow 9.12.07½
24AugWON RosehillRRC August Stakes x len 8f7.8 Graceton 7.101.43½
09Sept3rd RandwickAJC Derby 8L x 8L 12f8.5 Noctuiform
11Sept2nd RandwickAJC New Stakes x 4L 9f8.7 Sun God
20OctWON CaulfieldVATC Caulfield Guineas x2L 8f8.0 Dantzic
04NovWON FlemingtonVRC Victoria Derby x½L 12f8.5 Grama
09NovWON FlemingtonVRC Oaks x1½L 12f8.10 The Infanta
17FebWON CaulfieldVATC St George Sks x hdx8L 9f8.0 Gladsome
24FebWON CaulfieldVATC St Hellier Sks x½len 12f8.7 Scot Free
03MarWON FlemingtonVRC St Leger x5lens 14f8.5 Circuit
05MarWON FlemingtonVRC All Aged Stakes x hd x 6l 8f8.3 Gladsome 8.121.44.¼
14AprWON RandwickAJC St Leger Sks x1½ x 3len 14f8.7 Kaffirpan3.16.2
18Apr2nd RandwickAJC All Aged Stakes x½hd 8f8.6 Gladsome

1906-07 At FOUR YEARS 7 starts 2 wins 1 second 1 third

29SeptWON RandwickAJC Spring Stakes x5len 12f8.9 Isolt 8.92.35.¼
03Oct3rd RandwickAJC Craven Plate x 8lens 10f8.9 Solution
06OctLast RandwickAJC Randwick Plate 18f8.9 Noreen
03Nov5th FlemingtonVRC Melbourne Sks 10f8.9 Solution
08Nov2nd FlemingtonVRC Flying Stakes x 2lens 7f8.9 Iolaire 8.01.28¼
30MarUnpl RandwickAJC Autumn Stakes 12f8.11 Dividend 9.3
03AprWON RandwickAJC All Aged Stakes x¾len 8f8.12 Collarit
Note : There is one start I cannot account for.  A press report gave her record as 28 starts for 14 wins but I can only find 27 starts in the pages of the press.

Note 2 :  I should also add that Lady Wallace went back to Mungle Bundle Stud where she was foaled and produced Cisco who won the 1911 AJC Derby and the 1917 Futurity Stakes winner Balarang
« Last Edit: 2016-May-18, 07:31 PM by tontonan »

Offline pwa

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« 2014-May-19, 08:28 PM Reply #403 »
Tontonan, the missing Lady Wallace race is the Nursery Handicap at Randwick on 26th December 1904. She finished third to Lochino (6.12) in a 5f race carrying 7st 6lb and run in 1m 4¾.

Just to add to Lady Wallace’s first two starts:

STC Nursery Handicap won by Binnia 7st 5lb and 1lb over, Lady Wallace 7st 3lbs; 5 furlongs; 1min 4sec
AJC Nursery won by Master Joe 8st 2lb Lady Wallace was first named in a group that came after the 4th horse carried 8st, time 50 ¾

Referring back to Jorrocks, the NSW Sporting Magazine missed him racing at Hawkesbury 2nd April 1845 J when he won the 60 guineas Hawkesbury Town Plate and then on 4th April 1845 won the 50 guineas Richmond Purse.

Some info in the Wikipedia article on Jorrocks is also based on the footnote to the reprinting of Barrie’s chapter in Jack Pollard’s Great Horse Stories of Australia and New Zealand. There is the claim that he was 8 times leading stakes-winner in NSW. He is given as jointly winning in 1842 with Harkaway, 1843 with another “Whisker”, 1844 with Lottery and 1845 with Blue Bonnet and then on his own 1846-49. There it is also stated that he walked 5762 miles in total to different race meetings.
Certainly a great old warrior!

Those stakes-winning figures are always interesting. Newhaven’s £13254 included over £3000 won in England so the counting of money won outside Australia and New Zealand in total prize-money won was occurring a century ago.

Some horses do surprise with their totals. Nelson in the late 1880s won £8199. Richmond won £5845 as a 3yo in 1875-76 so he must have been very close to The Barb when he retired. Merman in England won £7432 (Lady Wallace collected £7139).

About 6 months ago I put together what I could find about New Zealand stakes-winnings which were faithfully reported right up to the 1930s in the Australian press. These might be available elsewhere but some famous horses are mentioned and some totally obscure!

1876-77 Guy Fawkes £1425
1877-78 Templeton £1510
1882-83 Welcome Jack £2521, Tasman (bred in Tasmania) £1500, Sir Modred £1076
1886-87 Spade Guinea £2996, Nelson £2070, Disowned £1440 (Lochiel 8th with £1072)
1888-89 Manton £3313 12s, Cynisca £1262 1/6, Cuirassier (Trenton’s brother) £1180 16s
1889-90 Tirailleur £3500, Occident £2076, Pygmalion (2yo) £1544 9s (highest ever by a NZ 2yo)
1890-91 Crackshot £1410 15s, Freedom £1292 (Cynisca 7th with £1027 15s)
1891-92 British Lion £1445, Florrie £1440 (Cynisca 8th with £1044)
1892-93 St. Hippo £2890, Merganser £2052
1893-94 Blue Fire £2087
1894-95 Mahaki £14.., North Atlantic £1387, Prime Warden £1328
1895-96 Euroclydon £2090 19s, Bloodshot £1316 2/6, Fabulist 1269 11/6
1896-97 Multiform £2761 13s, Gold Medallist £1921, Lady Zetland £1600
1897-98 Multiform £2144 10s, St. Paul £1884, Conqueror £1839
1898-99 Screw Gun £1782, Douglass £1639, Castashore £1633, (Multiform 5th with £1475)
1899-00 Advance £3251, Seahorse £3208, Explosion £2026
1900-01 Renown £3085, Menschikoff £2515, Moifa £1903 (Advance 8th £1450)
1902-03 Achilles £2685, Wairiki £2496, Lady Lillian £2048
1903-04 Gladsome £2665 (doesn’t include her Australian winnings but does include her Wellington victories for which she was later disqualified), Convoy £1920, Machine Gun £1855
1904-05 Mahutonga £2977, Nightfall £2331, Grand Rapids £1960 (Machine Gun 6th with £1395)
1905-06 Noctuiform £3747, Isolt £2699 (both including Australian winnings), Boomerang £1890, Achilles £1745
1906-07 Master Delaval £2365, Glenculloch £2180, Zimmerman £2035, Achilles £1900
1907-08 Zimmerman £3375, Fleetfoot £2350, Gold Crest £2230
1908-09 All Red £3230, Provocation £2560, Armlet £2145
1909-10 Formby £2610
1910-11 Danube £3185, Culprit £2665, Warmangu £2360
1911-12 Counterfeit £3547 10s, Autumnus £3070, Vice-Admiral £2275
1912-13 Bon Reve £3742, Bobrikoff £2952, Bon Ton £2407
1913-14 Merry Roe £3130, Cherubini £3050, Sinapis £3005, Warstep £2600
1914-15 Warstep £6360, Reputation £4690, Desert Gold £3665
1915-16 Desert Gold £8350, Eligible £4565, Balboa £2640
1916-17 The Toff £4565, Desert Gold £2825, Adjutant £2460, Biplane £1850 (2yo), Sasanof £1785 (but £9263 with his Australian winnings)
1917-18 Estland £3815, Fiery Cross £3232, Finmark £3160, Desert Gold £2625
1918-19 Gloaming £6765 (plus £5161 in Australia), Sasanof £4800, Surveyor £3050
1919-20 Amythas £7695, Arrowsmith £4195, Humbig £3120
1920-21 Gloaming £5630, Maioha £5480, Mermin £4570
1921-22 Gloaming £5760, Winning Hit £4780, Epitaph £4260
1922-23 Enthusiasm £5832, Rapine £5000, Queen March £4650
1923-24 Ballymena £5665, Laughrea £4915, Motley £3825
1924-25 Count Cavour £5755, Gold Light £5530, Red Wink £4005, Surveyor 4th as a 9yo with £3995
1925-26 Rapine £4930, Grand Knight £4710, Te Menanui £4580, Star Stranger £4455
1926-27 Commendation £6187 10s, Pluthair £4820, Civility £4070
1927-28 Star Stranger £4630, Rapier £4138, Beau Cavalier £3655
1928-29 Gay Ballerina £3950, Prodice £3750, Nightmarch £3590

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-20, 07:59 AM Reply #404 »

I have edited Lady Wallace's record in the post above.  Many thanks for filling in the blanks.

Researching Richmond's complete record has been on the 'To Do' list for sometime.  His form fell away after his huge 3YO season but he did win the Birthday Cup in Adelaide in 1879 for which he is reported to have collected £725 - so yes, he would ceratinly have been in the ball park of The Barb by 1879 but by that stage Chester was in full flight and well ahead in terms of stake money.  

The stakes winners list is interesting, but when I said it doesn't mean much I meant as a measure of horse's achievement (if taken out of context of the prizemoney on offer).  

This is a list of the prizemoney (in pounds) for the Melbourne Cup (first column) and Victoria Derby (second column) at 5 yearly intervals to the beginning of decimal currency -

Year Cup Derby
1861 710 150
1866 1034 100
1871 1110 500
1876 1775 500
1881 2105 500
1886 3665 650
1891 13124 1790
1896 4148 1130
1901 5367 1248
1906 6326 1843
1911 8742 2819
1916 9205 2899
1921 10450 3020
1926 12912 5918
1931 7200 6161
1936 10200 5000
1941 7700 5000
1946 10200 5000
1951 14300 6000
1956 15500 7000
1961 20750 7100
1966 $62,000 $40,000

What is interesting is that the Cup Carbine won (£10,230 to winner) and the Cup Phar Lap won (£9,429) and the Cup Rising Fast won (£11000) were similar in value across a 65 year period but they were the high points of the prize money progression.  

The Cup Newhaven won was only worth £3398 to the winner, a third of what it was worth just six years after Carbine.  Peter Pan's Cups were only worth £5200 to the winner, about half of what Phar Lap's was worth just a couple of years earlier.   The stake money fluctuates with the economy, and this is something that contemporary racing fans don't fully realize because our experience is that prizemoney only ever rises - or at least it has for the last 50 years or so.

Whether we like it or not money remains our most persuasive indicator of value.  I believe, in the most general terms, that our appreciation of a horse like Peter Pan or Newhaven is influenced  by their lack of earnings relative to Carbine and Phar Lap - or put another way, we would appreciate them more if their earnings were higher relative to Carbine and Phar Lap, and of course they would be if the races they won had been staked at the same level as those horses.

Likewise our appreciation of the merit of past races is influenced by contemporary values - and I am not talking money now.  timw has used a criteria (similar to Pring) that recognizes the number of races that would come to be regarded as 'Group 1 races' in 1979 as the basis of his selection of which horses to detail on these pages.  I fully appreciate the need for some selection criteria and I don't mean to criticize timw for using his but the point I want to make is that races regarded as Group 1 or not in 1979 do not necessarily reflect the status or quality of races in previous years.  Status, like prizemoney, fluctuates.

What all this amounts to - apart from me thinking out aloud - is what I am learning the more I explore the history of the Australian turf : Racing does not happen in a vacuum.   It is rooted in the matrix of values of the time in which it is conducted and those values change over time.

One of the many things I have learned along the way of my own survey of the Australian turf is that I am as guilty as anybody of assuming that what a race 'means' today is the same as what it meant yesteryear.   And what began for me as a celebration of past champions is increasingly becoming an appreciation of contemporary champions.  'We don't make them like we used to' is any easy conclusion to reach from a naive reading of past records.  It's a much harder conclusion to reach when the historical context of when a horse races is fully accounted for.

That's quite enough from me.

Edit : Reformat table
« Last Edit: 2014-May-20, 12:24 PM by tontonan »

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-20, 02:37 PM Reply #405 »
Mountain King
1904 chestnut horse
(Wallace - Bonnie Rosette GB)
Trained by J.Burton
Owned & Bred by J.McDonald
at Mungle Bundle, NSW

21 starts : 12 wins 2 seconds 1 third  £11,471
Win : 57.1%  Placed : 71.4%  Range : 7f to 16f  Ave Win : 12.4f

1906-1907 At TWO YEARS : 2 starts 0 wins 1 second 0 third
2nd Rand AJC Breeders Plate 5f 8.5 Boniform 8.5 1.03.½ 20/1 neck 03Oct
6th Flem VRC Maribyrnong Plate 5f 8.10 Maltine 9.1 1.03.½ 5/2=   03Nov

1907-08 At THREE YEARS :  15 starts 12 wins 1 second 1 third
WON Rand Tatt's Rawson Stakes 9f 7.2 Collarit 9.0 1.52.7 2/1*                Poseidon 3rd x 2lens
WON Rand AJC Derby 12f 8.10 Welcome Trist 8.10 2.41.¾ 8/15* neck 05Oct
WON Rand AJC New Stakes 9f 9.5 Sivori 8.5 1..56.½ 4/7* 3 lens 07Oct
WON Rand AJC Craven Plate 10f 7.11 Iolaire  x½hd 9.0 2.07.2 4/7*                Poseidon 3rd 09Oct
WON Flem VRC Victoria Derby 12f 8.10 Peru 8.10 2.39.0 2/5* length 02Nov
3rd Flem VRC Melbourne Cup 16f 7.6 Apologue 7.9 3.27.½


¾ L x 3L 05Nov
WON Flem VRC Flying Stakes 7f 8.0 Iolaire 9.0 1.27.0 4/7* 8 lens 07Nov
WON Flem VRC CB Fisher Plate 12f 7.9 Poseidon 9.0 2.40.0 2/5* 5 lens 09Nov
WON Caul VATC St George Stakes 9f 8.3 Ebullition 9.0 1.55.2 1/5* 4 lens 15Feb
2nd Caul VATC Futurity Stakes 7f 9.6 Antonio 9.8 1.29.0 4/6* ¾len 22Feb
WON Flem VRC St Leger 14f 8.10 Peru 8.10 3.06.7 1/7* 4lens 29Feb
WON Flem VRC Loch Plate 16f 8.1 WALKED OVER   4.28½     05Mar
WON Rand AJC St Leger 14f 8.10 Welcome Trist 8.10 3.14.5 1/12* 3lens 20Apr
WON Rand AJC All Aged Stakes 8f 8.8 Tangaroa 8.8 1.41.7 2/9* 2lens 22Apr
Unpl Rand AJC Cumberland Srakes 16f 8.2 Poseidon 9.0 3.34½ 9/4   22 Apr

Choked down at the 6 furlong pole, making a loud noise.  Diagnosed as a'roarer'

1908-1909 At FOUR YEARS : Did not race

1909-1910 At FIVE YEARS 3 starts 0 wins 0 seconds 0 thirds

« Last Edit: 2014-May-20, 03:10 PM by tontonan »

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-20, 03:00 PM Reply #406 »


1908-1909 At FOUR YEARS : Did not race

1909-1910 At FIVE YEARS 3 starts 0 wins 0 seconds 0 thirds

unpl Rand Tatt's Chelmsford Stakes 9f 9.11 Prince Foote 8.2 1.55.0 8/1   11Sept
5th  Rand AJC Spring Stakes 12f 9.5 Trafalgar 9.0 2.36.½ 20/1   02Oct
unpl Rand AJC The Shorts 6f 9.12 Plush 7.9 1.13.0 7/2   04Oct
unpl Rand AJC Craven Plate 10f 9.4 Maltine 8.13 2.07.0 25/1   06Oct

What a nightmare.  Now I know why timw posts in plain text

Mountain King is from the same era as Lady Wallace, and the same stable, also by Wallace and also bred by J.McDonald at Mungle Bundle.

Mountain King met Poseidon four times.  He beat Poseidon at three meetings in the Spring of 1907 including a five length hiding in the CB Fisher Plate.  In the Autumn of 1908 Mountain King began making 'a loud noise'.  

He kept winning but his whistling got louder.  He won the All Aged Stakes and was sent out later in the day in the Cumberland Stakes at 2 miles but 6 furlongs from home he choked down and was not seen again for over a year.  

His comeback as a 5YO was extremely disappointing and he was retired to Mungle Bundle where he sired Mountain Knight who won the AJC Derby and both St Legers in 1914-15.

Who knows what he would have been capable of if he had been clean winded ?

« Last Edit: 2014-May-20, 03:08 PM by tontonan »

Offline pwa

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« 2014-May-20, 09:58 PM Reply #407 »
Tontonan, have to say I fully agree with you about the Group 1 “measuring stick”. It has always seemed strange to me that races which didn’t survive from the 19th and early-20th centuries cannot be accorded any retrospective status. The Champion Stakes, for example, had to be, at the very least, among the top 5 races in any late 19th/early 20th century racing season. Others like the winners of the Craven Plate, which always attracted a “Group 1” field at least until at least the mid-60s, likewise only qualify as a Group 3 on their CV. In the 1950s alone these were the winners on the left and Cox Plate winners on the right

1960 - Tulloch                                            Tulloch
1959 - Travel Boy                                      Noholme
1958 - Prince Darius                                  Yeman
1957 - Prince Darius                                  Redcraze
1956 - Caranna                                         Ray Ribbon
1955 - Prince Cortauld                              Kingster
1954 - Prince Cortauld                              Rising Fast
1953 - Tarien                                            Hydrogen
1952 - Hydrogen                                       Hydrogen
1951 - Hydrogen                                       Bronton
1950 - Playboy                                          Alister

Hydrogen is nowadays underrated and poor Prince Darius picked the wrong WFA race of which to be a double-winner!

The comparative table of prize-money is enlightening. Arn Rogers of Turf Monthly fame always championed Peter Pan and reading 19th century accounts, a horse like First King was right up there with the absolute champions but is largely forgotten now whereas perhaps Archer is a little over-inflated in reputation today. 1920s champions like Trivalve are largely overlooked.

That was the great thing about Turf Monthly with its resurrection of forgotten horses. Warwick Hobson did a fantastic Racehorse Register in the late 70s - “a refined list of thoroughbred bluebloods, taking in the most famous names as well as those not honoured quite so handsomely”. Commotion, Lough Neagh, Prince Grant, Ziema, Summer Regent, Ballymena, Progress etc.

Mountain King is a forgotten horse as well although surprisingly the Sportsman’s Greatest 100 magazine from 2000 had him as number 28!

For anyone who might be interested, here’s their list of the “100 greatest thoroughbreds to grace racetracks in Australia during the last century”

1.   Phar Lap
2.   Tulloch
3.   Kingston Town
4.   Bernborough
5.   Rising Fast
6.   Might and Power
7.   Peter Pan
8.   Wakeful
9.   Manikato
10.   Galilee
11.   Eurythmic
12.   Todman
13.   Poseidon
14.   Vain
15.   Ajax
16.   Delta
17.   Gloaming
18.   Better Loosen Up
19.   Tobin Bronze
20.   Dalray
21.   Shannon
22.   Dulcify
23.   Octagonal
24.   Prince Foote
25.   Redcraze
26.   Let’s Elope
27.   Windbag
28.   Comic Court
29.   Mountain King
30.   Light Fingers
31.   Poitrel
32.   Saintly
33.   Balmerino
34.   Sailor’s Guide
35.   Limerick
36.   Wenona Girl
37.   Carbon Copy
38.   Vo Rogue
39.   Nightmarch
40.   Leilani
41.   Srawberry Road
42.   Beau Vite
43.   Amounis
44.   Desert Gold
45.   Luskin Star
46.   Aurie’s Star
47.   Flight
48.   Super Impose
49.   Hall Mark
50.   Carioca
51.   Chatham
52.   Surround
53.   Evening Peal
54.   Rain Lover
55.   Bonecrusher
56.   Noholme
57.   Rivette
58.   Dual Choice
59.   Trafalgar
60.   Gunsynd
61.   Red Anchor
62.   Hydrogen
63.   Fine and Dandy
64.   Tranquil Star
65.   Rose of Kingston
66.   Tontonan
67.   Mollison
68.   Storm Queen
69.   Taj Rossi
70.   Tie the Knot
71.   Beau Zam
72.   Lady Wallace
73.   Artilleryman
74.   Maybe Mahal
75.   Chicquita
76.   Russia
77.   Valicare
78.   Ammon Ra
79.   Gothic
80.   Placid Ark
81.   True Course
82.   Trivalve
83.   Emancipation
84.   Schillachi
85.   Baguette
86.   Furious
87.   High Caste
88.   Rogilla
89.   Proud Miss
90.   Bounding Away
91.   Vintage Crop
92.   Royal Gem
93.   Gold Rod
94.   Malt Queen
95.   Pago Pago
96.   Gay Icarus
97.   Lord
98.   Hyperno
99.   Doriemus
100.   Prince Cortauld

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-21, 11:44 AM Reply #408 »

I couldn't agree more with the historical merit of the Craven Plate and Champion Stakes. Those would be the first two races I would nominate as 'retrospective Group 1' - and the CB Fisher Plate would not be far away either. Even so the retrospective Group 1 criteria must have something going for it as this thread has documented the racing record of virtually every horse on the Sportsman Top 100 list

The Sportsman list is interesting but then I wonder how it could possibly omit Sky High, Heroic, Manfred and Spearfelt ? Sky High must have been an oversight. I can't fathom how Wenona Girl would make the cut and Sky High miss out. Or how Manfred could miss the top 20 let alone the top 100.

Manfred hasn't been covered in this thread so far. He was a flawed racehorse in that he did not always consent to gallop and that has probably weighed against him but when he did agree to race he was one the most brilliant racehorses of all time.


"28 starts 11 wins 5 seconds 2 thirds £25380 (win only)
Win : 39.3%ÿ Place: 64.3% Range : 6f to 12f Ave Win : 9.1f

1925-26 At TWO YEARS

18-Oct     Unpl   of   14   Caulfield   VATC Gwynn Nursery   5f   D Zeally   8   20-1   Ashtaroth   8.3   01:01.7  
25-Oct     Unpl   of   22   Moonee Valley   MVRC St Albans Hcp   4f   F Jennings   8.9   14-1   Glorion   8.5   00:49.7  
1-Jan       2ND   of   17   Caulfield   VATC Criterion Hcp   5f   D Zeally   7.9   5-1   Saluki   8.5   01:01.0  
14-Feb    Unpl   of   23   Caulfield   VATC Federal Stakes   5f   F Jennings   8.3   12-1   Postscript   7.9   01:01.0  
28-Feb    2ND   of   7   Flemington   VRC Sires' Produce   7f   J Toohey   8.1   3-1   Poetaster   8.7   01:25.7  
5-Mar      2ND   of   8   Flemington   VRC Ascot Vale Stakes   6f   J Toohey   8.1   3-1   Los Gatos   8.7   01:13.7  
4-Apr      WON   of   25   Warwick Farm   AJC Fairfield Hcp   6f   W Duncan   8.13   10-1   Triplex   8   01:14.0  
11-Apr   *TNP   of   14   Randwick   AJC Sires' Produce   7f   J Toohey   8.1   6-4 f   Los Gatos   8.7   01:27.5  
                                        * AJC Sires' Produce officially recorded as ""took no part"" in the race when he refused to gallop at the start"
13-Apr   WON   of   7   Randwick   AJC Easter Stakes   7f   J Toohey   8.2   10-9 f   Laveuse   8.7   01:26.0  
15-Apr   WON   of   11   Randwick   AJC Champagne Stakes   6f   J Toohey   9.1   6-1   Los Gatos   9.4   01:11.0 RR  
                                        Won by 8 lengths taking 1½  seconds off the race record

1926-27 At THREE YEARS  

15-Aug   4TH   of   13   Flemington   VRC 3YO Hcp   8f   T Clifford   9.4   20-1   Ambassador   7.12   01:41.2  
5-Sep     WON   of   19   Caulfield   VATC Heatherlie Hcp   9f   W Duncan   7.12   5-2   Toolkarby   7.1   01:52.5  
19-Sep   2ND   of   7   Rosehill   RRC Hill Stakes   8f   W Duncan   7.12   1-3 f   The Hawk   9   01:38.5  
3-Oct    *WON   of   7   Randwick   AJC Derby   12f   W Duncan   8.1   2-5 f   Petunia   8.1   02:35.2  
                                    * AJC Derby - Missed the start by an estimated 100 metres and still won by 1½lens                                   
10-Oct   *TNP   of   7   Caulfield   VATC Caulfield Guineas   8f   W Duncan   8.5   4-11 f   Manacre   8.5   01:41.5  
                                    * As he did in the AJC Sires' Produce he was left at the post.                                   
24-Oct   WON   of   6   Moonee Valley   MVRC WS Cox Plate x sht½hd   9½f   F Dempsey   7.11   4-5 f   The Night Patrol   9.4   01:57.0 CRT  
31-Oct   WON   of   7   Flemington   VRC Victoria Derby   12f   F Dempsey   8.1   2-5 f   Belgambra   8.1   02:31.5 RR  
                                      Won by 12 lengths taking 1ó seconds off the race record                                   
3-Nov    2ND   of   28   Flemington   VRC Melbourne Cup    x ½len   16f   F Dempsey   7.8   7-4 f   Windbag   9.2   03:22.7=ANZ  
20-Feb  3RD   of   15   Caulfield   VATC Futurity Stakes   7f   J Toohey   9.7   9-2   Top Gallant   10.2   01:26.2  
27-Feb  *TNP   of   4   Flemington   VRC St Leger Stakes   14f   J Toohey   8.1   1-6 f   Belgambra   8.1   03:05.2  
                                      * St Leger Stakes - left at post                                   
27-Feb   *TNP   of   6   Flemington  VRC Essendon Stakes   10f   J Toohey   8.3   6-4 f   Pilliewinkie   8.3   02:06.5  
                                     * Essendon Stakes - left at post.                                   
1927-28 At FOUR YEARS                                      

4-Sep     2ND   of   5   Caulfield   VATC Memsie Stakes   9f   R Lewis   9.7   4-1   Heroic   9.11   01:53.0  
2-Oct     WON   of   5   Flemington  VRC October Stakes   8f   R Lewis   9   2-7 f   Ben Lomond   54   01:39.2  
9-Oct     WON   of   4   Caulfield   VATC Caulfield Stakes   9f   R Lewis   9   2-7 f   Royal Charter   9.1   01:53.5  
16-Oct   WON   of   23   Caulfield   VATC Caulfield Cup   12f   R Lewis   9.6   5-4 f   The Banker   8.13   02:32.5  
30-Oct  WON   of   5   Flemington   VRC Melbourne Stakes   10f   R Lewis   9   2-7 f   Pantheon   9.4   02:06.2  
12-Feb *TNP   of   6   Caulfield   VATC St George Stakes   9f   F Dempsey   9.1   2-1 f   Heroic   9.12   01:55.2  
                                     * St George Stakes - left at post.                                   
19-Feb   *TNP   of   9   Caulfield   VATC Futurity Stakes   7f   R Lewis   10.6   7-2   Waranton   9.8   01:26.5  
                                      * Futurity Stakes - left at post.                 

Manfred sired the The Trump (winner of the Caulfield/Melbourne Cup double in 1937) Mildura ( winner of the Newmarket and two Doncasters) Red Manfred (Derby and St Leger winner in NZ) and the highly talented Manolive (Perth Cup, Williamstown Cup etc)                  

« Last Edit: 2014-May-21, 11:49 AM by tontonan »

Offline Authorized

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« 2014-May-21, 11:54 AM Reply #409 »
I would think if Historians want to add retrospective group 1 races to their records than they should do so but I personally would never agree to it on an official level - That is not to say I would not be interested in what Historians came up with.

Look at Manikato's situation, Of his 7 PR races all of them are now group 1 races but when they introduced group racing in 1977 one of them was only afforded group 2 status. Why should the races that he won with group 2 status from the original gradings be upgraded retrospectively to group 1 when they were not afforded that respect straight away ?

Stakes or Principal Race Wins
YearRace NameStatusDistance
1979STC George Ryder StakesG11400m
1980STC George Ryder StakesG11400m
1980VATC Futurity StakesG11400m
1981VATC Futurity StakesG11400m
1983VATC Futurity StakesG11400m
1979MVRC Freeway StakesG21200m
1979MVRC William Reid StakesG21200m
1979VATC CF Orr StakesG21400m
1980MVRC William Reid StakesG21200m
1980VATC CF Orr StakesG21400m
1981MVRC William Reid StakesG21200m
1981VATC CF Orr StakesG21400m
1982MVRC AJ Moir StakesG21000m
1982MVRC Freeway StakesG21200m
1982MVRC William Reid StakesG21200m
1982STC Canterbury StakesG21200m
1982VATC Memsie StakesG21600m
1983MVRC William Reid StakesG21200m
1978STC Golden Slipper StakesPr1200m
1978VATC Blue Diamond StakesPr1200m
1978VATC Caulfield GuineasPr1600m
1978VATC Invitation StakesPr1400m
1978VRC Ascot Vale StakesPr1200m
1979BATC Doomben "10,000"Pr1350m
1979VATC Futurity StakesPr1800m
« Last Edit: 2014-May-21, 11:56 AM by Authorized »

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-21, 01:35 PM Reply #410 »
I don't think any of us are suggesting a retrospective application of the Pattern System.  Speaking for myself, heaven forbid.  It's an awful system that would be better off in the dustbin of history rather than applied to history.  However my interest is in identifying the best racehorses  and being able to identify the best races is essential. 

The point being made was that races afforded relatively low status in 1979 had a much higher status in earlier years (in the case of the Craven Plate for example) and some extinct races, like the Champion Stakes were long dead when the Pattern System was introduced in Australia and were therefore never graded, but the Champion Stakes was certainly one of the very best races of its time.

I actually prefer that races prior to 1979 aren't subject to any grading other than as Principal races as I would rather no grading than have poorly conceived 'official' gradings specific to 1979 being applied to races prior to 1979.

As my project involves the summary of every Australian racing season since 1860 and identifying the leading horses from each season I need to assess which were the best races of the season.  I do this by means of a table of principal race results for each season (about 25 races) but to keep the table relevant I need to modify it periodically as some races lose their status and other races gain status. 

The table I am using in the 1930's (which is where the project is currently at)  includes several races that are either no longer on the calendar, not graded Group1 in 1979 or longer graded Group 1.

VRC ST LEGER (listed)
ASCOT VALE SKS (2YO) (Gr.II 3YO in 1979)
AJC ST LEGER (extinct)

But each of those races could be conceived of as having been Group 1 equivalents  in 1930 as could the AJC Autumn Sks, the AJC Cumberland Sks,possibly the VRC Essendon Sks - all of which are extinct.

By the by,  25 principal races seem to be sufficient to identify the dominant gallopers of any given season and if the imperatives of the breeding industry and inter colonial politics are set aside, it would make a fine number for quantity of 'Group 1' races we 'should have'.

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« 2014-May-21, 02:18 PM Reply #411 »
How many of those races have impressive winners and possibly even impressive fields but where possibly used as trials or as we prefer to call them lead up races to more important race later on ?

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-21, 03:23 PM Reply #412 »
Who can say ?

CRAVEN PLATE : One of three WFA races at the AJC Spring meeting and horses often contested all three.  The Craven attracted particularly good fields because it was after the major handicaps and the Derby and pulled runners from those races.  It was also the shortest and sharpest of the three and run with genuine pace.  It was often the race that ended a horses Spring campaign or was the basis of the decision to go to Melbourne.  It also attracted a good deal of NZ interest.  19 editions were won by Hall of Fame horses up until it fell of the calendar - about 20%.  There were many memorable renewals and the 10 furlong record was broken in this race several times.

CB FISHER PLATE : run on the final day of the VRC Spring carnival it often brought the Cup and Derby horses together over a mile and a half.  Formerly the Canterbury Plate and the Queen's Plate before that run at 3 miles.  It was not the lead up to anything else because there wasn't anything else apart from the Williamstown meeting.  15 Hall of Fame winners between its first renewal as the Fisher Plate and 1969 (74 years = 20.2%)  Got off to a flying start with one of the most celebrated races ever seen at Flemington with Wallace and Auraria dead heating.

VRC ST LEGER - run on the first day of the VRC Autumn meeting and often contested first up.  Small but select fields usually featuring the Derby winner from the Spring and his principal rival.  The Red Ribbon classic was a desirable prize and not a lead up race although the winners would often contest the AUstralian Cup and Champion Stakes at the same meeting.

ASCOT VALE STAKES - best juvenile 6f race in Melbourne - on a par with the Maribyrnong Plate in the Spring which was for sometime the richest 2YO race on the calendar

VRC SIRES PRODUCE - VRC 2YO semi classic from 1862.  Was it a lead up race ?  Given the ling list of Derby winners that came thorough the race, maybe it was.

KINGS PLATE - Formerly the Champion Stakes when a 3 miler before 1917.  Considered the WFA championship in the 19th century.  Won by all colonial Hall of Fame horses (except for Malua who didn't stay) plus Wakeful, Eurythmic, Heroic, Phar Lap (twice) Ajax(twice) High Caste before it was suspended during wartime, then Delta (twice) Redcraze, Tulloch, Galilee and Rain Lover (twice) before made extinct in the 1970s.  17 Hall of Famers.

AJC ST LEGER - Australia's oldest classic allowed to slip into extinction.  Comment for the VRC version apply but with the added advantage of bringing the Melbourne and Sydney colts together.  Remarkably only four Hall of Fame horses won the race before it died in the 1950's (VRC 6)

I don't think they could be considered lead ups.  Apart from those occasions when horses were 'loosened up' in short course races like the All Aged for longer races later in the meeting I don't know there was a lot of 'leading up' done at the Flemington and Randwick carnivals.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2014-May-21, 06:26 PM Reply #413 »
Interesting discussion guys. From what Ive heard over the years is that the Cox Plate was well down the pecking order compared to todays lofty heights.

Also great list of 100 but I wonder how they decide the order :chin:

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-21, 11:03 PM Reply #414 »

These are figures from the Spring of 1922 - the year of the first Cox Plate - in terms of added money

Ordinary Sat Hcp = 200 sovs
VRC Carnival support race = 500 sovs   (x2.5)

Caulfield Cup = £6630  (x33+)
Caulfield Sks WFA 9f = 1500 sovs (x7.5)
Herbert Power Sks 11f WFA = 1000sovs  (x5)
Cox Plate 9½f WFA = 1000 sovs  (x5)
MV Cup = 1500sovs (x7.5)
Melbourne Sks 10f WFA = 1500sovs  (x7.5)
Victoria Derby = 3001 sovs  (x15)
Cantala Sks 8f Hcp = 2000 sovs  (x10)
Melbourne Cup =£12624 (x63+)
VRC Oaks = 1000sovs (x5)
Linlithgow Sks 8f WFA = 1300sovs (x6.5)
CB Fisher Plate = 1500 sovs (x7.5)

As you can see the Cox Plate was staked as a 2nd tier WFA race in the beginning but the field quality was pretty good and comprised of a mix of Melbourne Cup and Cantala Stakes prospects.  The winner, the imported Violoncello went on to win the Cantala Sks, the Linlithgow and the CB Fisher Plate.

As a point of interest the AJC Craven Plate had 3000 sovs of added money and was the richest WFA contest of the Spring. 

Its more than reasonable to argue that in the 1920s the Craven Plate was the best WFA race on the calendar.

I need to look this up but I am pretty sure the Cox Plate was not worth more than the MV Cup until the late 1950's.  Prizemoney doesn't tell the whole story though as the fields for the Cox Plate were always better than the MV Cup.

In comparative terms, today's regular handicaps are worth $80,000 and staked at 1922 proportions the Cox Plate would be worth $400,000. the Derby ($1.2m) the Caulfield Cup ($2.6m)  and the Melbourne Cup (5.04m)

Offline Jims Punting

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« 2014-May-22, 09:35 AM Reply #415 »
First time in the thread - what great stars are listed here.
Can't list them all ... but SPECIAL missed the top 100 cut ... wonder by how much?

Not a criticism, but an observation:

In looking over some of the early list eg SUNLINE and TULLOCH, there's quite a contrast in the number of horses in the fields.

SUNLINE (14 Gr1) raced against fields of an average 11.7 starters with a SR of 68%.
TULLOCH  (16 G1) raced against fields of an average 7.6 starters if you exclude the Melb Cup with 32 starters in 1960.
Include the MC and you have him racing against avg field size of 8.1 with a SR of 68%

Different era ... different competition.

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« 2014-May-22, 01:25 PM Reply #416 »
First time in the thread - what great stars are listed here.
Can't list them all ... but SPECIAL missed the top 100 cut ... wonder by how much?

Not a criticism, but an observation:

In looking over some of the early list eg SUNLINE and TULLOCH, there's quite a contrast in the number of horses in the fields.

SUNLINE (14 Gr1) raced against fields of an average 11.7 starters with a SR of 68%.
TULLOCH  (16 G1) raced against fields of an average 7.6 starters if you exclude the Melb Cup with 32 starters in 1960.
Include the MC and you have him racing against avg field size of 8.1 with a SR of 68%

Different era ... different competition.

Yet people believe things are sooo bad today.

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-22, 01:52 PM Reply #417 »
That is an interesting point Janice but what does it mean ? 

Champion horses 'scare off' the opposition.  This has always been so.  In the old days it resulted in horses 'walking over' for half the purse when nobody was prepared to contest the race with them.  This was peculiar to the time when purses were essentially winner take all.  The introduction of place money has made it economic for horses to contest races they have virtually no hope of winning.

What field sizes Black Caviar would have competed in if 'winner take all' applied.  How many walk overs would she have had ?

Or does it mean that there was something about the thoroughbred population that affected field sizes at the highest level ?  Or something about the way racing was organized ?  Carbine often faced small fields at WFA and huge fields under handicap.  There have been occasions when even our very best handicap races have been run in divisions because of the number of participants.  And occasions when our very best WFA races have become extinct because their field sizes were so small as to be no longer viable.

It's complicated.

Offline timw

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« 2014-May-22, 09:01 PM Reply #418 »
Tontonan, can't believe I missed posting Manfred.  Of course I had nailed him for 7 retrospective group 1 wins being-

1st-11   15/04/1925.   8L x 2L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Champagne Stakes   2YO SW&P   6f.   1207m.   9.1   57.5kg   1.11.0 (RR)   6/1.   Los Gatos 9.4 6/1 2nd   Petunia 8.10 5/1 3rd
1st-7  (LAP 110yds)   3/10/1925.   1.5L x 1.25L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Derby   3YO SW   12f.   2414m.   8.10.   55.5kg   2.35.25   2/5F   Petunia 8.10 25/1 2nd   Tibbie 8.5 33/1 3rd
1st-6   24/10/1925.   Sht hd x 3L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC W.S. Cox Plate   WFA   9.5f.   1911m.   7.11   49.5kg   1.57.0.   4/5F   The Night Patrol 9.4 6/4 2nd   Pantheon 9.1 15/1 3rd
1st-7   31/10/1925.   12L x 1L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Victoria Derby   3YO SW   12f.   2414m.   8.10.   55.5kg   2.31.5 (RR)   2/5F   Belgamba 8.10 10/1 2nd   Hampden 8.10 33/1 3rd
1st-4   9/10/1926.   2L x 1.5L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Stakes   WFA   9f.   1810m.   9.0.   57kg   1.53.5   2/7F   Royal Charter 9.1 15/1 2nd   The Banker 9.1 6/1 3rd
1st-23   16/10/1926.   0.5L x 2L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Cup   Open Hcp   12f.   2414m.   9.6   60kg   2.32.5   5/4F   The Banker 8.13 5/1 2nd   Royal Charter 8.11 14/1 3rd
1st-5   30/10/1926.   0.5L x 2.5L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Melbourne Stakes (later Mackinnon Stakes)   WFA   10f.   2011m.   9.0.   57kg   2.06.25   2/7F   Pantheon 9.4 6/1 2nd   The Banker 9.1 20/1 3rd

As for Special, while she was a favourite of mine, I would be tempted to include her in the top 100 only because she must have been one of Bruce McAvaney's  favourite horses - a 'joke' that might be lost on those of you who live north of the Murray and don't follow Aussie Rules. 

I agree the use of retrospective group 1s has its limitations, but it should never be used prospectively, as some do,  as the number of group races should always depend on the total number of horses competing and races run  - as I understand it some leeway is given to the Irish who have a disproportionately larger number on group races. 

I have done some analysis of the sorts of races that ANZ horses that have won 5 or more G1's between circa 1900 and 2000 that repeat the most in their records.  Of course it excludes races such as the Craven Plate and the Champion Stakes, the later arguably the Cox Plate of its time.  Naturally WFA races are at the forefront. 

Top 10 races from the first half of the 20th Century (for horses that have won 5 or more G1 races)

Race name   No of G1 Winning horses

VRC Mackinnon Stakes   25

MVRC W.S. Cox Plate (from 1922) 20

MRC Caulfield Stakes   20

STC Rawson Stakes (from 1903) 18

AJC All-Aged Stakes    17

AJC Champagne Stakes   14

MRC Futurity Stakes                  14

AJC Sires' Produce Stakes   13

VRC Victoria Derby                13

MRC Underwood Stakes (from 1924)   12

Top 10 races from the second half of the 20th Century (for horses that have won 5 or more G1 races)

Race name   No of G1 Winning horses

MRC Caulfield Stakes   28

MVRC W.S. Cox Plate   27

VRC Mackinnon Stakes   23

AJC All-Aged Stakes     21

STC Rawson Stakes              21

MRC Futurity Stakes                17

MRC Underwood Stakes   15

AJC Plate / AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   15

VRC Australian Cup   14

AJC George Main Stakes    14

AJC Champagne Stakes   14

Top 10 races in last 30 years (1980/81 - 2009/2010) since the introduction of the group classification system (for horses that have won 5 or more G1 races)

Race name   No of G1 Winning horses

MVRC W.S. Cox Plate   16

MRC Caulfield Stakes   15

VRC Australian Cup      14

AJC Chipping Norton Stakes (G1 since 1986)  13

STC Rawson Stakes     13

MRC Futurity Stakes    12

MRC Underwood Stakes   12

AJC George Main Stakes (first run 1945)   12

VRC Mackinnon Stakes   11

AJC All-Aged Stakes    11

AJC Plate / Queen Elizabeth Stakes    11

Top 2YO races

Top 2YO races from the first half of the 20th Century (for horses that have won 5 or more G1 races)

Race name   No of  G1 Winning horses

AJC Champagne Stakes   14

AJC Sires' Produce Stakes   13

VRC Sires' Produce Stakes (G1 until 2004)   9

Top 2YO races from the second half of the 20th Century (for horses that have won 5 or more G1 races)

Race name   No of  G1 Winning horses

AJC Champagne Stakes    10

AJC Sires' Produce Stakes   8

VRC Sires' Produce Stakes (G1 until 2004)   7

STC Golden Slipper Stakes   7

Hope it makes sense

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-23, 11:51 AM Reply #419 »
My connection is a bit dodgy today so I have to post this before I lose it....

This one doesn't meet the criteria but perhaps only because races like the Autumn and Cumberland Stakes didn't survive until 1979.  He's a very good and important horse though.  Not only did he run an Australasian record to beat Manfred in the Melbourne Cup he was an Australian bred sire that might have lived in the shadow of Heroic but produced some top class horses.  He took a while to find his feet but from his first stakes win in the AJC St Leger to the end of his career his record is most imposing.  A crowd favorite who was extremely honest and one of the first of the welter of champions that Percy Miller reared at the Kia Ora stud....

36 Starts 18 wins 8 seconds 2 thirds  £35,939
Win 50%  Place 77.7%    Distance Range : 5f to 18f     Ave Win Distance :11.4f

Bought for 120 guineas at the Sydney Sales by Bob Miller, brother of breeder Percy Miller
Named Windbag because of his noisy breathing                                 
1923-24   At TWO YEARS :    8 Starts  2 wins 0 seconds 0 thirds   
29-Dec   UNP   of   15   Randwick   AJC Juvenile Stakes   5f      7.12      Golden Voice   7.7   01:00.7
12-Jan   UNP   of   14   Canterbury   Nursery Hcp   5f      8      Windwhistle   7   01:03.2
19-Jan   UNP   of   25   Randwick   AJC Nursery Hcp   5f      7.5      Bard Of Avon   9   01:04.5
2-Feb   WON   of   18   Canterbury   Nursery Hcp   5f   x len   7.1   12-1   Longdale   8.4   01:03.7
16-Feb   UNP   of   24   Randwick   AJC Nursery Hcp   5½f      7.1      Gaelic Maid   7.12   01:13.7
15-Mar   UNP   of   12   Warwick Farm   AJC Nursery Hcp   6f      7.1   10-1   Red Gauntlet   8.4   01:13.7
12-Apr   UNP   of   15   Moorefield   2YO Hcp   6f      7.11      Loquat   7.7   01:17.5
26-Apr   WON   of   21   Randwick   AJC Nursery Hcp   8f   x head   7.6   8-1   Valamita   8.4   01:38.2

1924-25  At THREE YEARS :    10 Starts  6 wins 2 seconds 0 thirds   
2-Aug   WON   of   23   Randwick   AJC 3YO Hcp   6f   x len   8.9   8-1   Hemisphere   8.3   01:13.5
21-Feb   UNP   of   20   Moorefield   Flying Hcp   6f      7.7      Encore   8.11   01:16.2
7-Mar   WON   of   15   Moorefield   Welter   8f   x len   9.12   9-4 f   Lexy   8.5   01:44.0
28-Mar   UNP   of   13   Rosehill   RRC Rawson Stakes   9f      8.4      The Hawk   8.13   01:51.7
4-Apr   2ND   of   7   Warwick Farm   AJC Chipping Norton   10f   x head   8.2   6-1   Wallace Mortlake   8.2   02:08.2
11-Apr   WON   of   5   Randwick   AJC St Leger Stakes   14f   x shthd   8.1   4-1   Spearfelt   8.1   03:08.7
13-Apr   2ND   of   23   Randwick   AJC Sydney Cup   16f   x len   8.2   16-1   Lilypond   9   03:26.7
15-Apr   WON   of   5   Randwick   AJC Cumberland Sks   14f   x 1½len   8.4   10-9 f   Lilypond   8.11   03:03.0
18-Apr   WON   of   5   Randwick   AJC Plate   18f   x len   8.2   10-9 f   Te Kara   9.1   03:58.2
25-Jul   WON   of   18   Randwick   AJC New Mexico Sks   6f   x 2½len   9.12   3-1 ef   Red Gauntlet   9.5   01:12.0

1925 -26  At FOUR YEARS :    12 Starts  8 wins 3 seconds 1 thirds   
12-Sep   WON   of   11   Randwick   Tatt's Chelmsford Sks   9f   x 2len   9.7   2-5 f   Valamita   9   01:51.5 (race record)
3-Oct   WON   of   7   Randwick   AJC Spring Stakes   12f   x 2len   9   4-7 f   Whittier   9.6   02:31.7
7-Oct   WON   of   5   Randwick   AJC Craven Plate   10f   x ¾len   9   2-5 f   Pilliewinkie   9.1   02:04.5
10-Oct   WON   of   4   Randwick   AJC Randwick Plate   16f   x neck   9.1   1-3 f   Pilliewinkie   9.4   03:35.7
31-Oct   3RD   of   5   Flemington   VRC Melbourne Stakes   10f   x neck   9   4-6 f   Pilliewinkie   9.1   02:04.0
3-Nov   WON   of   28   Flemington   VRC Melbourne Cup   16f   x ½len   9.2   5-1   Manfred   7.8   03:22.7 (anz record)
7-Nov   2ND   of   4   Flemington   VRC CB Fisher Plate   12f   x 1½len   9   1-2 f   Pilliewinkie   9.2   02:39.7
20-Mar   2ND   of   4   Rosehill   RRC Rawson Stakes   9f   x 8len   9   4-5 f   Valicare   8   01:50.7
27-Mar   WON   of   5   Warwick Farm   AJC Chipping Norton   10f   x ½len   9.7   4-5 f   The Night Patrol   9.8   02:08.2
3-Apr   WON   of   5   Randwick   AJC Autumn Stakes   12f   x lngnk   9   5-4 f   Pilliewinkie   9   02:34.7
7-Apr   2ND   of   4   Randwick   AJC Cumberland Stakes   14f   x 1½len   9   1-2 f   Heroic   9   03:07.0
10-Apr   WON   of   4   Randwick   AJC Plate   18f   x ½len   9   10-9 ef   Heroic   9   04:02.0

1926-27  At FIVE YEARS :    6 Starts  2 wins 3 seconds 1 thirds
2-Sep   WON   of   5   Warwick Farm   AJC Warwick Stakes   8f   x shtnk   9.3   7-1   Valicare   8.9   01:38.0
11-Sep   2ND   of   6   Randwick   Tatt's Chelmsford Stakes   9f   x 2len   9.11   4-6 f   Limerick   7.13   01:52.7
2-Oct   2ND   of   6   Randwick   AJC Spring Stakes   12f   x 1½len   9.5   2-5 f   Spearfelt   9.5   02:34.0
6-Oct   WON   of   5   Randwick   AJC Craven Plate   10f   x head   9.4   3-1   Limerick   7.8   02:04.5
2-Apr   2ND   of   4   Rosehill   RRC Rawson Stakes   9f   x ¾len   9.2   6-1   Limerick   8.3   01:51.2
9-Apr  3RD of 11  Warwick Farm  AJC Chipping Norton  10f  x 2len  9.8  3-1  Amounis  9.4  02:05.5

Windbag was a highly successful sire and finished second on the Australian sires table in 1933 and 1934 and was third in 1936
His best progeny were the champion milers Chatham and Winooka, Caulfield Cup winner Northwind, VRC Derby winner Liberal, Oaks winner Primavera, the Australian Cup winner Topical and the horse that launched the career of TJ Smith, Bragger

« Last Edit: 2016-May-18, 07:32 PM by tontonan »

Offline pwa

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« 2014-May-23, 09:30 PM Reply #420 »
There doesn't seem to be any agreement on  the criteria for “top racehorses”. Does a long consistent career record count more than one golden season like, say, Mountain King? Should Vintage Crop be in any list on the basis of one victory in three Australian starts? Does the strength of the opposition count as in some comparisons of Phar Lap against Carbine? Should a horse’s record solely in Australia count or Australasia and overseas as well? What about unfairly disparaged “cotton-wool champs” like Ajax who avoided handicaps? In the late 19th and early 20th centuries versatility was enormously valued which was one reason why Malua was so highly regarded but milers like Marvel, Beauford and Woorak less so.

Whatever criteria are used, for many of us lists are compelling!

Another Top 100 was from the Herald Sun 29th December 1999 completed by Shane Templeton “in consultation with colleagues, many former writers and renowned trainers” of the Top 100 Racehorses of the Century

1.   Phar Lap
2.   Tulloch
3.   Rising Fast
4.   Might and Power
5.   Kingston Town
6.   Bernborough
7.   Galilee
8.   Ajax
9.   Tobin Bronze
10.   Peter Pan
11.   Gloaming
12.   Wakeful
13.   Redcraze
14.   Shannon
15.   Dulcify
16.   Saintly
17.   Octagonal
18.   Vain
19.   Todman
20.   Vo Rogue
21.   Better Loosen Up
22.   Poseidon
23.   Eurythmic
24.   Super Impose
25.   Gunsynd
26.   Limerick
27.   Balmerino
28.   Delta
29.   Let’s Elope
30.   Strawberry Road
31.   Comic Court
32.   Manikato
33.   Sailor’s Guide
34.   Windbag
35.   Dalray
36.   Lord
37.   Taj Rossi
38.   Chatham
39.   Rain Lover
40.   Sky High
41.   Tranquil Star
42.   Noholme
43.   Light Fingers
44.   Sobar
45.   Leilani
46.   Our Poetic Prince
47.   Mountain King
48.   Prince Foote
49.   Flight
50.   Wenona Girl
51.   Beau Vite
52.   Carbon Copy
53.   Nightmarch
54.   Desert Gold
55.   Aurie’s Star
56.   Rubiton
57.   Gay Icarus
58.   Hall Mark
59.   Amounis
60.   Hydrogen
61.   Bonecrusher
62.   Red Anchor
63.   Hyperno
64.   Rivette
65.   Sunline
66.   Carioca
67.   Evening Peal
68.   Surround
69.   Doriemus
70.   Rough Habit
71.   Ming Dynasty
72.   Fine and Dandy
73.   Beau Zam
74.   Royal Gem
75.   Baguette
76.   Emancipation
77.   Mollison
78.   Artilleryman
79.   Manfred
80.   Dhaulagiri
81.   Winfreux
82.   Horlicks
83.   Durbridge
84.   Almaarad
85.   Aquanita
86.   Tie the Knot
87.   High Caste
88.   Heroic
89.   Tontonan
90.   Zeditave
91.   Placid Ark
92.   Shaftesbury Avenue
93.   Veandercross
94.   Tristarc
95.   Bounding Away
96.   Chicquita
97.   Gothic
98.   Lady Wallace
99.   Naturalism
100.   Stylish Century

70 of the horses in that list are post-1950; Manikato is quite low and Sky High below Lord a surprise. Poitrel’s omission was their major oversight and Trafalgar should be there somewhere. Brucie's Special not there either!

I really appreciated TimW’s analysis of the Group 1 winners’ successes as a means of identifying the quality of races and Tontonan's descriptions of our "lost races". I took TimW’s listing of the first 13 horses to win 5 or more Group 1 races, up to and including Carbine, and checked them against the three major 3-mile w.f.a. races of the time. The Champion Stakes wasn’t run when 4 of the 13 were racing but 5 of the eligible 9 won that race. The AJC Plate from 1873 had 6 of the eligible 9 as winners, while the Randwick Plate (the least valued of the three) had 6 of the 13. Trident and Abercorn won all 3; Carbine had 5 wins in 2 of the races, Dagworth 4 wins in 2 of the races but Nelson, Malua, Briseis and Florence won none of the three.

Offline worldisavampire

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« 2014-May-24, 02:43 AM Reply #421 »
Super Impose ranked higher than Manikato.

That noise you just heard was Wily's head exploding.

Offline Authorized

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« 2014-May-24, 05:17 PM Reply #422 »
Super Impose ranked higher than Manikato.

That noise you just heard was Wily's head exploding.


Just thinking how hard it will be for La Amistad to get into eitherCups race this spring. How hard was it for horses in the old days ?

Offline Jims Punting

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« 2014-May-24, 05:40 PM Reply #423 »

Just thinking how hard it will be for La Amistad to get into eitherCups race this spring. How hard was it for horses in the old days ?
It was easy Auth - all they had to do was keep winning :)

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-24, 05:59 PM Reply #424 »

Your analysis makes sense  to me, and I have a similar tally for the Hall of Fame horses with similar results but what I found interesting was the non Group 1 races that also feature prominently amongst the Hall of Fame horses. 

These races include the St George Sks (won 23 times by Hall of Fame horses)  Craven Plate (18) Warwick Sks (17) Linlithgow/Flying Sks (15) Chipping Norton (13) and Chelmsford Sks (14).  The Memsie (18) has been recently elevated to Gr. 1 status as has the Orr Sks (13).

Note : A quick count of the St George Stakes reveals that between 1900 and 1967 (which is where timw's survey is currently at) 27 editions of the race were won by horses whose records have been accounted for on this thread, not including the couple I have added , Mountain King and Lady Wallace.  The Craven Plate has been won by 30 times by horses accounted for on this thread over the same period.

Obviously these are the traditional WFA pathways followed by the best performed horses. 

I would love to get my hands on some figures for the thoroughbred population prior to the 1970s.  I have figures for the general horse population but I haven't been able to find TB specific data.   The general horse population peaked in the second decade of the 2oth century at some more than 2.5million - quite an advance on the 7 were started out with. 

Do the Turf registers give any indication of the number of registered racehorses ?