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Offline pwa

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« 2014-May-24, 08:45 PM Reply #425 »
TARRAGON (1858) by New Warrior (imp) out of Ludia (Veno’s sister)

24 (?) starts – 12. wins, 6 seconds, 1third

He is a forgotten (near)-champion from the years between Archer and The Barb. The Australasian in 1906 stated that with “Archer retired and Mormon on the wane Tarragon was at the time [the years 1864 and 1865] indisputably the best horse in Australia .... but his reign was not a long one. The Barb and Fishhook were soon to come on the scene.”
According to the Australian Town and Country Journal in 1870 “This renowned old champion never has had a successful rival in the affections of his countrymen; for, dating back to old Jorrocks, who was almost elevated into a divinity no horse has been more popular with the people of New South Wales than Tarragon; and no greater excitement has been caused in our racing circles than by the well-remembered Champion Race of 1866, with its dead heat and fastest time ever known in the colonies up to that time for three miles.”

Four Years 1862-1863 – 8(?) starts – 4/2/-/1 or 2

1st –20/8/1862 – Windsor (Hawkesbury) – Maiden Plate (1¾miles) started at 2/1, 2nd Volunteer, 3min 30sec, won by 2 lengths
2nd – 22(?)/8/1862 – Windsor – Squatter’s Purse 1st Spartan, margin ½length
1st – 11/9/1862 – Randwick – AJC Metropolitan Maiden Plate –started at 2/1, 2nd Eva, 3min 32sec, won by 1½lengths
2nd –13/9/1862 – Randwick – Innkeeper’s Purse (w.f.a. 2½miles) (8st 12lb) 1st Traveller (8st 9lb), 5min 12sec, margin variously given as 3 lengths or a length
Unpl (5th)– 17/3/1863 – Penrith – All Aged Stakes, 1st Ben Bolt, 4mins 6¾sec
Unpl –19/3/1863 – Penrith – Great Western Railway Hcp (8st 12 lb), 1st Ben Bolt (9st 11lb) (according to the SMH Tarragon didn’t start)
1st – 30/4/1863 – Randwick – Trial Stakes, (9st 6lb), 2nd Ben Bolt, 2min 42 sec, margin – length
1st –2/5/1863 – Randwick – Queen’s Plate (3 miles w.f.a.) (9st 2lb), 2nd Ben Bolt, 6min ½sec, length margin

Five Years 1863-1864 – 4 starts 2/2/-/-

2nd – 3/9/1863 – Randwick – Cumberland Hcp (3 mile) (9st 6lb), started 6/4, 2nd – Pasha, 5min 55 sec, by a head
2nd – 5/9/1863 – Randwick – Metropolitan Cup (9st 7lb), 2/1 equal favourite, 1st Regno (8st 7lb), 3min 46 sec, couple of lengths
1st– 28/4/1864 – Randwick – Randwick Grand Hcp (2 miles), (10st), 2nd Kyogle, 3min 48sec
1st –30/4/1864 – Randwick – Queen’s Plate (3 miles w.f.a.), 10st, 2nd Sir Patrick, 3rd Volunteer, 6min 20sec in pelting rain, 3 lengths

Six Years 1864-1865 3 starts 2/-/1/-

1st– 8/9/1864 – Randwick – Cumberland Hcp (3miles), (10st 1lb), 2nd Volunteer, 5min 57sec, 1½ lengths
1st –– 10/9/1864 – Randwick – Metropolitan Cup (2 miles), (10st 4lb) 2nd Ramonie, 3rd Ben Bolt, 3min 30sec, length
3rd –20/4/1865 Adelaide Cup (2 miles) (10st 4lb), 6/4 on, 1st Ebor, 3 min 55½sec
Seven Years 7 starts 4/2/-/1

2nd –7/9/1865 – Randwick – Mayor’s Cup (2 miles), (10st 5lb), 5/2 favourite, 1st Volunteer (9 st), 3min 46sec, won by a head
1st – 8/9/1865 – Randwick – Sydney Hcp (1½ miles) (10st 5lb), 2/1 favourite, 2nd Lavalette, 3rd Volunteer 2min 48sec
1st – 9/9/1865 – Randwick – Forced Hcp (1½ miles) (10st 5lb), 2nd Volunteer (9st 5lb), 3rd Lavalette (7st 3lb), 2min 18sec, won by a head
1st – 1/1/1866 – Flemington – Victorian Champion Race (3 mile wfa) dead-heat with Volunteer in 5min 47sec, race-off after the last race on the programme won in 5min 48sec by 4 lengths. Prize-money £2450. “Judge Dogherty didn’t believe in those head victories they were close enough to be called dead-heats”
1st –2/4/1866 – Homebush – Revival Stakes (w.f.a. 1¾miles), (10st 2lb), 2nd O’Meara, 2 lengths
Unpl –3/5/1866 – Randwick – Sydney Gold Cup (10st 10lb), 4/1, 1st Yattendon (8st 4lb), 3min 43sec, Tarragon “pulled up lame before passing the post”
2nd –5/5/1866 – Randwick – Queen’s Plate (3miles w.f.a.), (10st 4lb) 2/1 on, 1st Cossack, 5min 54sec, 2 lengths

8 Years 2 starts -/-/-/2

Unpl. –9/5/1867 – Randwick – Sydney Gold Cup (9st 12lb), 10/1, 1st Fishhook (6st 10lb), 3min 41½sec, Tarragon’s jockey fainted at the last turn
Unpl. (5th) – 11/5/1867 – Randwick – Queen’s Plate (3 miles w.f.a.), 1st Fishhook, 6 min

Jockey – Johnny Higgerson except for his last start ridden by Jemmy Ashworth
« Last Edit: 2016-May-18, 07:32 PM by tontonan »

Offline manikato1

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« 2014-May-24, 09:49 PM Reply #426 »
Just on the races thing.  As races become extinct and others change conditions, should we look at different races having the same lineage? For example, the race that Tulloch won first up his long spell, the Queens Plate(?).  As I understand it, that was a WFA 2000m race on the first day of the VRC Autumn carnival.  That seems to have a lot more to do with the modern Australian Cup than the 3600m Australian Cup, or even the Handicap version of the Australian Cup.  I am sure if you look closely through the past and current programmes, there will be a lot of these situations - the current Queen Elizabeth at Randwick has more in common with the Craven Plate pre 60's than the QE at 2800 or even 2400 is another example.

Offline timw

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« 2014-May-25, 06:50 AM Reply #427 »

While I agree the old Queen's Plate is more likely the modern Australian Cup if we don't follow some formal recognition such as the ASB there will be too many different opinions.

I am unaware of any annual stats for horses raced.  The only way is to count all the horses in the turf register index. If you looking for a quick way just count the number that fit on a few random pages and multiply it by the total number of pages in the index (and pretend the NZ horses are AUS horses when it was the Australasian Turf Register as they only seem to include the more important NZ races).   What you will find is that half or less the number raced in the time of Phar Lap and Tulloch than do today.

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-25, 08:34 AM Reply #428 »

You have got to be in it to win it so how hard it is to get a horse into the Cup in any given year will essentially be an expression of how many nominated and how many started.  I can answer your question fairly easily as the nominations were widely published.

In 1913 the first Tuesday in June was Nomination Day not just for the Cups but a whole raft of races from around Australia.  40 races in fact, from the juvenile events like the Debutant and Maribyrnong Plate to the classics including the St Legers (more than 9 months in advance).  The Melbourne Cup was advertised with £8150 added money and the entry fee was £2.

There were a record 233 nominations for the Melbourne Cup and 231 for the Caulfield Cup.  In 1913 only 20 horse ultimately faced the starter five months later.  The weights were issued 3 weeks after the nominations were taken .  Cardonia was top weight with 9.7 (60.5kg) ahead of Duke Foote 9.5 and the New Zealander Bobrikoff 9.2 and the 1911 winner The Parisian with 9.0.

45 horses received the bottom weight of 6.7 (41.5kg).  The spread was 19kg.

The ultimate winner Posinatus, a 5YO gelding, received 7.10 (49kg)

In 1913 all horses had to be  named and registered to be nominated for races.  .Previously they could be nominated unnamed.

In 2013 there were a total of 135 nominations for the Melbourne Cup including 28 international entries.  A full field of 24 faced the starter.

The ratio of nominations to starters in 1913 was 11.65.  The ratio of nominations to starters in 2013 was 5.625.

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-25, 08:55 AM Reply #429 »

That's a wonderful old record.

 John Higgerson was a great pioneer of the Australian turf and the Hall of Fame crew want their heads read for not including him straight off the bat.  He was associated with all the early champs, he even owned Jorrocks for a time, and was a very articulate old bloke who gave some wonderful interviews about 'the old days'. 

Much the same could be said for Jimmy Ashworth.  He was not only a successful jockey he was John Tait's right hand who did all the hands-on work, and after Tait retired Ashworth became the clerk of the course at Randwick for several years.  It was Jimmy Ashworth that Carbine tried to savage when he went to lead Marvel back to scale after his upset win in the 1891 All Aged Stakes.

As for Tarragon and Volunteer, what a rivalry.  That they fought out Tarragon's first race at Hawkesbury and were still going at it in the Champions Race is the stuff of legend.  5.48 was considered an astonishing time for the three miles and that record contributed to the reputation of the The Barb when he carved 9 seconds off it in the following Champions Race at Flemington.

I have a good picture of Tarragon but I never thought I would have his career record.  He's going straight in the gallery.


Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-25, 09:13 AM Reply #430 »

I understand where you are coming from.  Australian Cup as we know it has more in common with the old Queens Plate than it does with the old Australian Cup handicap.  The VRC Queens Plate has a very complicated history.  It is actually the remnant of the former VRC Champion Stakes and is not related to the original VRC Queens Plate which became the Canterbury Plate which became the CB Fisher Plate.  Although the distance (and the relative purse) were greatly reduced the Queens Plate was, like the Champion Stakes, the principal WFA race at the VRC Autumn meeting.

But the relationship of the Craven Plate to the QE Sks at Randwick is very different.

The Championships spin of recent times is nothing new as far as the QE Sks is concerned.  The QE is the remnant of the AJC Queens Plate, later renamed the AJC Plate from 1872, which has been the principal WFA race and  grand finale of the the AJC Autumn meeting since 1850.  The Craven Plate on the other hand was modelled on the season opening Craven meeting at Newmarket and was originally the first WFA race of the season.  The Craven Plate was the overture, the Queens Plate was the encore.

I think the AJC bungled the Craven Plate in 1978 when they took it off the calendar following the decision to more the Derby to the Autumn when they should have made it the centrepiece of the Spring meet.   Because they shelved the race it did not receive a grading by the Pattern committee in 1979 and when it was restored to the calendar in 1984 it was made a handicap and graded Group III.   It's a shame because the Craven Plate was still turning out worthy winners in the 1970's and had a strong case to be made graded Group 1.

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-25, 09:24 AM Reply #431 »

I am unaware of any annual stats for horses raced.  The only way is to count all the horses in the turf register index. If you looking for a quick way just count the number that fit on a few random pages and multiply it by the total number of pages in the index (and pretend the NZ horses are AUS horses when it was the Australasian Turf Register as they only seem to include the more important NZ races).   What you will find is that half or less the number raced in the time of Phar Lap and Tulloch than do today.

Excellent suggestion.

I have been meaning to research this for some time, bearing in mind that thoroughbreds do not become exclusively racing horses in Australia until some time after the war but are very much part of the general horse population with manifold uses.

I was reading recently that even a horse as well bred at Trivalve was deployed as a sire of station hacks in Central Australia in the 1930's. The thoroughbred was an important contributor to stock and military horse breeds as well as a fancy saddle mount for the well heeled in the 19th century (remember the squatter mounted on this thoroughbred) and were used to raise coach horses as well. 

Indeed the story goes Musket was originally deployed to raise coach horses when the news arrived that his son Petronel had won the 2000 guineas - and he got an immediate upgrade !

(the very vague point being that thoroughbred numbers would have been higher than the number registered as racehorses...)

Offline Jims Punting

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« 2014-May-25, 04:57 PM Reply #432 »
Learning some fantastic historical things here.

My throwaway quip about "all they had to do is keep winning" has a grain of truth to it - more so today that ever.

It used to be said that a half-decent plodder could win the MC but win little else.
Nowadays with the handicapper right on their case, you need to have enough weight (but not too much) to make the cut.
Several likely winners didn't earn enough weight in recent times, and didn't get into the field.
Trainers are desperate in the finish, for their charges to win a race that would earn them a penalty.

This is especially true with the field chopped from 32 to 24 starters.
Or am I on the  wrong track with this line of thinking?

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-25, 10:11 PM Reply #433 »
I think you have summed up the modern situation well. 

I don't mean to imply that it was harder to get a run in the old days just that it mightn't have been as easy as is sometimes assumed.  The handicap policy and the international program have certainly made it difficult and the fact that horses like Precedence miss out these days is proof enough of just how difficult it is and how times have changed.

I dont have figures at hand but I remember when the nominations for the Cup were triple and more of what they are today.  One of the first things I would do with my new Miller's Guide was crack the spine and fish the maidens and unraced horses from the pool and there were plenty of them.  It didn't cost a lot to nominate your horse for the Cup and nominations were taken a lot earlier than they are today when dreams were still alive.  By August those dreams become more elusive. By September many are shattered.  The Cup isn't as 'dreamy' as it used to be.  You need to have something more than a neddy in the back paddock to build a dream on these days.

I will say one thing for the 'plodders' that used to win the Melbourne Cup : They could stay.   Two of the most despised were Wotan at 100/1 and Rimfire at 80/1.  What isn't often appreciated is that both those despicables ran race records to win the Cup.  Wotan stripped 1½ seconds from the record set by the celebrated champions Winbag and Spearfelt, and Rimfire beat Wotan's record, and time they ran would be competitive in many Melbourne Cups.  3.21¼ converts to 3.20.1 over the metric course.    It helped that they carried only 45.5kg and 49.5kg respectively but the race was raced at a rattling pace and while neither horse possessed the 'turn of foot' they sure could stay.

These days to get a run you need weight and the way you get weight is to win races, usually shorter races than the Melbourne Cup, usually run at a faster tempo than the Melbourne Cup.  Increasingly those races are weight for age races.  If Wotan and Rimfire had to depend on winning WFA races to make the cut for the Cup they wouldn't have got near a start.  The race has changed in so many ways but one thing has a;ways remained the same - it's the race that everyone wants to win and winning has never been easy.

Online wily ole dog

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« 2014-May-25, 10:24 PM Reply #434 »
Super Impose ranked higher than Manikato.

That noise you just heard was Wily's head exploding.

   :biggrin:      FFS mate, only a true fcking idiot could believe that to be the case.  The same with M&P better than the King  :lol:
« Last Edit: 2014-May-25, 10:27 PM by wily ole dog »

Offline worldisavampire

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« 2014-May-26, 04:32 PM Reply #435 »

   :biggrin:      FFS mate, only a true fcking idiot could believe that to be the case.  The same with M&P better than the King  :lol:

I actually agree with you on both fronts.

I think Might and Power was ranked so high because the list was compiled right at the time he was peaking.

I also love eating duck. We may have more in common than we think.

Online wily ole dog

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« 2014-May-26, 06:03 PM Reply #436 »

I also love eating duck. We may have more in common than we think.

I'm sure we don't you just have to, sometimes, read between the lines  :lol:

Offline pwa

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« 2014-May-27, 07:50 PM Reply #437 »
Thanks Tontonan

Some years ago in researching the Champion Stakes I put together rough career records of the early winners like Tarragon, so will, time allowing, gradually edit them to put here.

The mare Ladybird (or Lady Bird) won the two New Zealand Champion races (1863 and 1865), in the first defeating the only good Australian horse to venture across the Tasman for a race in NZ rather than the reverse, in Mormon (I think that’s right). She apparently won well over £5000. NZ still had heats in some races in the mid-1860s and Ladybird once ran 8 races (including heats) in three days.

In some ways it’s a pity the early Intercolonial Champion races didn’t continue but as the Wagga race showed, it was increasingly difficult to attract good horses to regional centres.

Anyhow, even though it’s a NZ mare, the Australian connection, via Mormon, is there.

Ladybird (Lady Bird) (1858)
(Il Barbiere – Miss Foote)

46 starts; 24 wins, 15 second, 2 third, 5 unplaced

1861-62 Three Years 6 starts 3/1/1/1

1st – 26/12/1861, Great Nelson Trial Stakes, 1½ miles, 2nd St. Patrick, 3min 3sec
2nd – 26/12/1861 Nelson Ladies' Purse, 1¼ miles two heats, 1st Ultima neck and ½ length
1st – 27/12/1861 Nelson Maiden Plate, 1 mile 386 yards,  2nd St. Patrick 2min 21½sec
3rd – 27/12/1861 Nelson Town Plate, 3 miles, 1st = Revoke and Ultima, 6min 6sec, half-a-neck
1st – 27/12/1861 Scurry Plate (Handicap), one-mile, two heats, 2nd Ugly Buck, 1min 55sec, 1min 58sec
4th– 11/2/1862, Canterbury Cup, 1¼ mile, 1st Ultima
Unpl – 12/2/1862 Ladies' Purse, 2½ miles Appears in her career record but although Ladybird was entered she doesn’t appear to have started

1862-63 Four Years 16 starts 7/8/1/-

2nd – 29/12/1862 Nelson Turf Club Plate, 2 miles, 1st Otto, 3min 55sec, 2 lengths
1st – 29/12/1862 Nelson Handicap Stakes, 1½ miles 2nd Certainty, 2min 56sec, ½ length
2nd – 29/12/1862 Ladies' Purse, 1¼ miles; two heats, 1st Otto, 2min 25sec and 2min 35sec both by a length
2nd – 30/12/1862 Nelson Licensed Victuallers’ Free Handicap, 1½ miles, 1st Otto;
2nd – 31/12/1862 Nelson Town Plate, 3 miles, 1st Otto, 6min 10sec, ½ length
1st – 31/12/1862 Forced Handicap, 1 ¼ miles, 2nd Otto, 2min 23sec, neck
1st – 31/12/1862 Nelson Consolation Stakes. 1 mile, 2nd St Patrick, 2min 2sec, length
2nd – 20/1/1863, Canterbury Criterion Stakes, 1½ miles, 1st Golden Cloud, 2min 58sec
2nd – 21/1/1863 Grand Stand Plate (Hcp), 1 mile, (9st) 1st Golden Cloud ¾ length.
2nd – 21/1/1863 Ladies' Purse, 2½ miles, 1st Revoke, 5min 10sec, 1½ lengths
1st – 22/1/1863 Metropolitan Plate (Hcp), 1½ miles (8st 12lb), 2nd Market Gardener, 2min 57sec
2nd – 22/1/1863 Forced Handicap, 1 mile, 1st Golden Cloud, 2min2sec “At starting both horses came along very slowly until two-thirds the distance got over”
1st – 4/3/1863 Otago Dunedin Champion Race, (1600 sovs). 3 miles, 2nd Mormon, 5min. 55sec, 2 lengths (protest dismissed)
1st – 5/3/1863 Publicans' Purse, 1½ miles, 2nd Young Alma
1st – 5/3/1863 Ladies' Purse, 2 miles, 2nd Revoke
3rd –6/3/1863 Town Plate, 3 miles, with a penalty of 5lb for winning Champion Race, 1st Mormon, 6min 3½ sec

1863-64 Five Years 11 starts 7/4/-/-

1st – 1/1/1864 Auckland Innkeepers' Purse, 1 mile and a distance, 2nd Dainty Ariel, won “despite stumbling over a man who got in her way”
1st – 1/1/1864 Auckland Farmers' Plate, 1 ¾ miles, 2nd Dainty Ariel, 12 lengths
1st – 2/1/1864 Auckland Jockey Club Plate, 3 miles, 2nd Garotter, 3 lengths
1st – 2/1/1864 Auckland Military Plate 2 miles (walkover)
2nd – 19/1/1864 Canterbury Cup, 1¾ miles, 1st Golden Cloud
1st – 20/1/1864 Ladies' Purse, 2½ miles 2nd Cloud
2nd – 21/1/1864 Canterbury Queen's Plate, 3 miles 1st his stable-mate Rattan declared
1st – 21/1/1864 Forced Handicap, 2nd Rob Roy
1st – 8/3/1864 Nelson Turf Club Plate, Otto first past the post but disqualified
2nd – 9/3/1864 Ladies' Purse, 1st Otto
2nd – 10/3/1864 Forced Handicap, 1st Otto

1864-65 Six Years 4starts 3/-/-/1

1st – 17/1/1865 Canterbury Champion Race (1575sovs.), 3 miles, 2nd Miss Lee, 5min. 55sec, 2 lengths
Unpl. – 18/1/1865 Canterbury Cup, 2 miles, 1st Shillelagh, Ladybird “overpowered her rider and run herself out”
1st – 7/3/1865 Nelson Turf Club Plate, 2 miles, 2nd Golden Cloud, two lengths.
1st – 8/3/1865 Nelson Town Plate, 3 miles, 2nd Golden Cloud, 6min. 30sec, length

1865-66: Seven Years 8 starts 4/2/-/2

4th – 16/1/1866 Canterbury Cup, 3 miles, 1st Belle of the Isle, 5min. 51sec
2nd – 17/1/1866 Christchurch Plate, 2 miles, 1st Stormbird, ,3min 51 sec, ½ length
2nd – 18/1/1866 Queen's Plate, 3 miles, 1st Stormbird, 6min 1 sec.
4th – 18/1/1866 Railway States, ½ mile, 1st Virginia, 50sec.
1st – 20/3/1866 Nelson Turf Club Plate, 2 miles (9st 6lb), 2nd Voltigeur, 4min 8sec, “won with ridiculous ease”
1st – 21/3/1866 Nelson Town Plate, 3 miles, 2nd Harebell, 6min 10sec
1st – 21/1/1866 Nelson Licensed Victuallers' Free Handicap, 1¾ miles, (10st. 6lb), 2nd Blackboy, 3min. 29sec
1st – 21/3/1866 Nelson Forced Handicap, (10st. 6lb.), 2nd Corsair, 1min 54sec, head

1866-67 Eight Years 1 start -/-/-/1

Unpl – 15/1/1867 Canterbury Cup (3miles) 1st Stormbird, 5min 54 sec, Ladybird broke down
« Last Edit: 2016-May-18, 07:33 PM by tontonan »

Online wily ole dog

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« 2014-May-27, 09:42 PM Reply #438 »

I'm sure we don't you just have to, sometimes, read between the lines  :lol:

Bloody hell vamps, that was meant to say. I'm sure we do :sad:

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-27, 11:06 PM Reply #439 »
That's remarkable.  I never thought I would see Ladybird's record.

She is one of Henry Redwood who seems to have well and truly earned his title as the father of the New Zealand turf.  Ladybird is out of the Australian mare Moth (1847) and I wonder if she was part of the deal Redwood struck with Thomas Icely that saw Sir Hercules and Flora McIvor and others sent to New Zealand during the 1850s....

Yes, she was ( I just looked it up)...

 She tails to Yellow Jenny who was by Model (a fine Arabian) and The Old Hector Mare.  We know Old Hector was a Persian, and the mare's mother, the source of Colonial Family 26 could be anything at all but was most likely an import from the Cape Colony, very likely of Spanish jennett stock. 

While Ladybird was a disappointing broodmare her sisters bred on very successfully and despite its 'black blooded' origins this family has persisted to the present day.  The likes of Baghdad Note and Arena, the good filly Ribe and most recently El Segundo will be most familiar to Australians, and they all tail to Moth, dam of Ladybird.

I love those sort of connections.

One record I would love to see in time would be Zoe's.  She was a foal at foot of Flora when sent to New Zealand and began her career there before returning to Australia with Henry Redwood before being bought by John Tait to win 2 Champions races as an aged mare as well as run second in the inaugural.  The Queen of the South.

The untimely death of Guy Walter has brought Tie The Knot's name up recently.  He is another that traces back to Flora McIvor through her grand daughter Emma who was also part of the Icely consignment to Redwood. 

There was a whole lot of thoroughbred history on that ship, and a whole lot of very important horses that would have never been if it had not sailed.

Offline pwa

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« 2014-May-28, 07:04 PM Reply #440 »
I hadn't realised the full contribution of Flora McIvor and to think she ties in to Tie the Knot! I found a quote from Bell's Life from 1867 I had once noted down to the effect that Cossack was by Sir Hercules out of Flora McIvor ... combines the breeding of the best, sire and, almost, if not quite, the best brood mare we over had to boast of.

Zoe was a mighty mare although seemingly well past her best by the Ballarat Champion's Race in 1863. To win two Champion Races when over 10 years of age is mind-boggling. I think the Victoria Jockey Club Cup in October 1863 was her last race but it is confusing with other Zoes racing at the time.

I've got a reasonable career record for her and will put up what I've got at the weekend. The NZ part of her career is really hard to verify. I have details of 14 starts from which she had 5 wins from 1854-1857 but that may be only her career highlights.

Racing was really different in those days but what I like are the very comprehensive race descriptions in the press which can almost make you feel that you are there! And to think some of your ancestors might have watched, backed or followed at a distance the champions of the time.

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-29, 10:54 AM Reply #441 »
Yes, I think the old racing press is one of the main reasons I got so hooked on colonial racing but as my survey has moved through the years it is kind of sad to see it change. 

My favourites were Bell's Life and Australian Town and Country and then the Referee in Sydney  but reading through the Referee you can see how it began to fail, particularly in the 1930s.  It got very opinionated, very biased and seemed to get confused as it whether it was a Sporting magazine or a comic book.  Worst of all the quality of its scribes fell away. 

Some of the writers behind the pen names of yesteryear were extremely knowledgeable and very well credentialed.  For example William Cross Yuille, the man who owned Flying Buck, Kirk's Bazaar and ultimately Victoria's biggest bloodstock brokerage (as well as editing the early studbooks and owning their copyright until 1909) wrote under the pen name of Playboy (and others). 

I suppose Sportsman and the Sporting Globe carried on the traditions of the turf press but I think the change in style was a consequence of radio.  The race callers became the new prophets and preachers of the horse racing cult, like...

Mick Ferry, endowed with enormous binoculars, calling the races from the balcony of his Randwick flat in the 1920s when callers weren't allowed on the racecourse.  At Canterbury Mick called the races from an adjacent fowl yard and used to 'feed the chooks' just on post time to keep them quiet during his calls.  Mick also called trackwork !  I couldn't imagine anything worse but it proved quite a hit at the time.

Zoe's career highlights are fine by me.  As much as I appreciate the thoroughness of the records on these pages I wonder if anyone really cares about the finer details of horses that raced two centuries ago (says me who continues to research the complete record of Jorrocks even though I know it can't be done. :embarrassed: )

Offline pwa

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« 2014-May-29, 10:17 PM Reply #442 »
Great old photo, Tontonan and I do agree with the falling-away pre-WWII; "Martindale" had a good historical series in the early 30s though. Hopefully, they will publish the old Sporting Globe which will have some interesting material

I would hope there are a few around who would care about the old records! Trove now makes it possible to attempt a career profile of many of the old champions, near-champions and even the also-rans.

In that spirit here is my best attempt at Zoe. 


36 starts (14 in New Zealand), 12/12/7/5

1853-1854 Three Years

1st – March 1854 Nelson Shearers’ Purse (20 sovs +3 sovs per horse) 1 mile, 330 yards, 2nd Strop, 2min 19sec, couple of lengths

1854-1855 Four Years

3rd – 28/12/1854 Wairau Jockey Club Plate 2 miles, 1st Strop, 4min 4sec, Zoe pulled up (3 started)
2nd – 28/12/1854 Consolation Stakes one mile and a distance 1st Zingara 2min 20sec, 5 or 6 lengths, only 2 started
1st – 6/3/1855 Nelson Victuallers’ Plate (40 sovs + 5 added per horse) Three miles, 2nd Jack, 6 mins, 4 sec, neck, evens
2nd – 8/3/1855 Nelson Turf Club Plate Two miles, 1st Zingara, 3 min 57 sec, won with great ease
1st – 14/3/1855 Nelson Match Race of 100 sovs, two miles, 3 min 59 secs, 2nd Zingara both carrying 10st 10lb, 2 lengths

1855-1856 Five Years

3rd – 12/3/1856 Nelson Members’ Plate 1½ miles, 1st Zingara, 2min 53½sec
3rd – 22/3/1856 Sweepstakes of 25 sovs each, Nelson, 2 miles 1st Symphony, 3 min 50sec, nck, couple of lengths
2nd – 24/3/1856 Sweepstakes of 25 sovs, Nelson – Rabbit Island on the sand, 2 miles, 1st Zingara, 4 min

1856-1857 Six Years

2nd – 26/12/1856 Wairau Jockey Club Plate 2 miles 1st Flora, 3min 59sec, couple of lengths
1st – 10/3/1857 Nelson Turf Club Plate, 2 miles, 2nd Flora, 3min 56sec, head
3rd – 11/3/1857 Welcome Stakes, 1½ miles, 1st Potentate, 2min 52sec, couple of lengths
1st – 12/3/1857 Nelson Town Plate, 3 miles, 2nd Flora
3rd – 12/3/1857 Nelson Forced Hcp, 1mile, 1 furlong, 163 yards, 1st Camden (ex-NSW), 2min 21sec

1857-1858 Seven Years

2nd – 18/5/1858 Liverpool Town Plate, 3 miles, 1st Gratis, 6min 8sec, 2 lengths
2nd – 1/6/1858 Homebush City Plate, Twice around and a distance, 1st Ben Bolt, 5min 40sec
1st – 3/6/1858 Homebush Australian Jockey Club Handicap(100sovs), 3 miles 2nd Ben Bolt 3rd Zingara, 6min, several lengths
1st – 18/6/1858 Narellan Purse (50sovs), twice around the course 2nd Euroka, second heat w.o.
1st – 18/6/1858 Narellan Forced Hcp, 1½ miles, 2nd Young Morgan 3min 7sec
1st – 28/7/1858 Maitland Town Plate (100sovs) 2½ miles, 2nd Orlando, nck and a half
1st – 30/7/1858 Maitland Railway Plate (100 sovs), 3 miles, 2nd Orlando, 5min 55sec, 2½ lengths
4th – 24/8/1858 Windsor (Hawkesbury) All-Aged Stakes, 2 miles 280 yards, 1st Ben Bolt
2nd – 26/8/1858 Windsor Australian Plate, 3 miles, 1st Ben Bolt, 5min 51sec, couple of lengths

1859-1860 Nine Years

2nd – 1/10/1859 Flemington Australian Champion Sweepstakes 3 miles, 1st Flying Buck, 5min 57½ sec, (Zoe won 200 sov)
5th – 13/10/1859 Flemington Free Hcp, 1½ miles, (9st 12lb), 1st Beeswing, 2 min 52sec
2nd – 14/10/1859 Flemington Victorian Jockey Club Plate, 3 miles, 1st Nutwith, 5min 55sec, ¾ length
3rd – 15/10/1859 Flemington Great Metropolitan Hcp, (9st 12lb), 1st Camden, 3min 51sec, 1½ lengths, 1½ lengths
2nd – 25/4/1860 Camden Town Plate, 3 miles, 1st Veno
2nd – 9/5/1860 Camden Publicans’ Purse, twice around the course, DH and then 2nd to Gratis in race-off

1860-1861 Ten Years

1st – 1/9/1860 Randwick Second Australian Champion Sweepstakes (£1700), 3 miles, 2nd Wildrake, 6min 1sec, 2 lengths
2nd – 8/9/1860 Randwick Australian Jockey Club Hcp, 3 miles, (topweight 9st 3lb) 1st Ben Bolt, 6min 6sec, 1½ lengths
1st – 29/5/1861 Ipswich Champion Stakes (£1050), 3 miles, 2nd Ben Bolt, 5min 56sec, three lengths


1862-1863 Twelve Years

3rd – 30/4/1863 Randwick Grand Hcp, 2 miles, (top weight 9st 5lb) 1st Traveller, 3min 55¾
Unpl – 2/5/1863 Randwick Queen’s Plate, 3 miles, 1st Tarragon, 6min ½sec

1863-1864 Thirteen Years

4th – 1/10/1863 Ballaarat Champion Race, 3 miles, 1st Barwon, 6min 4sec
4th – 24/10/1863 Flemington Victorian Jockey Club Cup, 1st Musidora, 2 miles, 3min 49sec

I feel it is pretty close as she only raced at Nelson and Wairau (40kms from Nelson) in NZ

Offline pwa

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« 2014-May-30, 09:56 PM Reply #443 »
Mormon (Praxiteles until Dec 1859)

50 starts: 17/16/7/10

A great horse; a near-champion perhaps denied the champion tag only by Archer. In his 6 year-old season he won at least £4000; more than any other horse won in a season until The Barb. He was also well-travelled, with two trips to Tasmania, one to New Zealand and one to Wagga which was difficult to get to at the time. He won two Champion Stakes (the most lucrative purses of the time), was runner-up in another two, as well as runner-up twice in the Melbourne Cup. He was also victorious in the October 1861 Two Thousand Guineas; the prize twice that of the Melbourne Cup.

1858-1859 Three Years: 7 starts 2/2/1/2

2nd – 16/2/1859 Flemington Victoria St Leger Stakes, 1¾ miles 152 yards, 1st Brownlock, 6 lengths
3rd – 17/2/1859 Flemington VJC Maiden Plate, 1½ miles, 1st Lord Clyde 3 min
Unpl – 19/2/1859 Flemington Consolation Handicap Plate , 1 mile, 1st Beeswing
2nd – 9/3/1859 Geelong and Western Turf Club Maiden Plate, 1½ miles, 1st Barton, 3min 6sec, 3 lengths
1st – 24/3/1859 Flemington Turf Club Maiden Plate (100sovs), 2 miles, 2nd Excelsior, 3min 57sec, 2 lengths
Unpl – 25/3/1859 Flemington Turf Club Hcp, 2 miles, 1st Gaffer Grey
1st – 9/4/1859 Flemington (?) Victoria Volunteer Artillery Races, Artillery Hcp, (50sovs), 1½ miles, (8st 4lb), 2nd Green Linnet, 2min 53sec

1859-1860 Four Years: 8 starts – /3/2/3

5th – 1/10/1859 Flemington First Australian Champion Sweepstakes, 3 miles, 1st Flying Buck
Unpl. – 13/10/1859 Flemington Victoria Jockey Club Free Hcp Plate, 1½ miles, 1st Beeswing, 2min 52sec
6th – 15/10/1859 Flemington Great Metropolitan Hcp, 2 miles, (8st, 7lb), 1st Camden, 3min 51sec
2nd – 10/11/1859 Melbourne Turf Club Free Hcp, 1½ miles, (8st 5lb), 1st Beeswing, 2min 59sec, 2 lengths
3rd – 12/11/1859 Melbourne Turf Club Spring Stakes, 1¾ miles, 1st Flying Buck, 3 min 11 sec

(Name change to Mormon. The bookies referred to Praxiteles as Praxi-tiles and it was recalled later that his owner (Patrick Keighran) changed his name because he found it hard to pronounce, although it was suggested at the time that it was due to luck being against him!)

3rd – 26/12/1859 Williamstown Flying Buck Purse, 1½ miles, 1st Camden

The Argus reported: The Flying Buck Purse at one time seemed a gift to Praxiteles (we object to the name Mormon, unless the horse be nominated by Joe Smith), but Bentley, who rode the favourite, Camden, seeing a short cut, took advantage of it, carrying with him Gay Lad. Mormon religiously followed the track (the concave part of the leg of mutton course), and thereby lost 20 lengths. This ground he never fully recovered, so that Camden was ... a couple of lengths in advance of the others.

2nd – 26/12/1859 Williamstown Publicans’ Purse, 1½ miles, 1st Coquette, neck
2nd – 23/2/1860 Flemington Jockey Club Autumn Free Hcp, 1½ miles, (8st 4lb), 1st Despatch, 2min 50sec, 3 lengths, 11 starters

1860-1861 – Five Years: 12 starts, 3/3/3/3

Unpl – 15/11/1860 Flemington Turf Club City Hcp, 1½ miles, 1st Wildrake, 2min 54sec
3rd – 17/10/1860 Flemington Turf Club Consolation Hcp, 1½ miles, 1st Lucy Glitters, 3min 1sec
1st – 26/12/1860 Williamstown, Williamstown Hcp, (100sovs), 1¾ miles, 2nd Bolero, 3 lengths
1st – 5/2/1861 Geelong Turf Club Hcp (125sovs), 2¼ miles, 2nd Gaffer Grey, 4min 38sec
Unpl – 28/2/1861 Flemington Jockey Club Free Hcp, 1½ miles, 2min 50sec, Mormon last
2nd – 1/3/1861 Flemington Great Metropolitan Hcp, 2¼ miles,(9st 5lb), 1st Despatch, 4min 20sec (fastest time ever in Australia), ¾ length
2nd – 21/3/1861 Flemington Victoria Turf Club City Hcp, 1½ miles, (9st 7lb), 1st Gaffer Grey, 3mins 4sec, 6 lengths
3rd – 22/3/1861 Flemington VTC Metropolitan Cup, 2¼ miles, 1st Bolero, 4min 31sec
1st – 23/3/1861 Flemington Victorian Turf Club Town Plate, 3 miles, (100sovs), 2nd Bolero, 6min 8sec, 3 lengths
2nd – 2/5/1861 Randwick Australian Plate, 2½ miles, 1st Archer, under a length (after three false starts)
Unpl – 3/5/1861 Randwick City Plate, 2 miles, 1st Gaffer Grey, 4 min
3rd – 4/5/1861 Randwick Australian Jockey Club Hcp, 3 miles, 1st Talleyrand, 6min 2sec

1861-1862 Six Years: 7 starts 5/2/-/-

1st – 17/10/1861 Flemington Two Thousand Guineas Stakes (1800sovs), 2¼ miles, 2nd Camden, 4min 24½ sec, 6 lengths
2nd – 7/11/1861 Flemington Melbourne Cup, 2 miles (Mormon carried 10st 11lb including a 5lb penalty for winning the Two Thousand Guineas), 1st Archer, 3min 52sec, several lengths
1st – 4/12/1861 Hobart Fourth Australian Champion Stakes (2000 sovs), 3 miles, 2nd Shillelah, 6 min 14 sec, 20 lengths
1st – 6/12/1861 Hobart Tasmanian Hcp, (200 sovs), 2 miles, (9st 12lb), 2nd Panic, 3min 57sec
1st – 31/1/1862 Geelong Fifth Year of the Challenge Gold Whip, 3 miles, 2nd Flatcatcher (2-horse race), 6min 33sec, 1½ lengths
2nd – 28/3/1862 Flemington All-Age Stakes, 1 mile, 1st Carisbrook, 1min 53½ sec, ½ length
1st – 29/3/1862 Flemington Town Plate (100sovs), 2 miles, 2nd Ebor, 3min 53½ sec, ½ length

1862-1863 Seven Years: 12 starts 6/5/-/1

4th – 1/10/1862 Geelong Champion Race (2000sovs), 3 miles, 1st Talleyrand, 6min 2½ sec
2nd – 16/10/1862 Flemington Victorian Jockey Club Great Hcp (value of stake £475), 1½ miles and a distance, (10st 1lb), 1st Falcon, 3min 3sec, ½length
1st – 18/10/1862 Flemington VJC Town Plate, 3 miles,(100 sovs), 2nd Flatcatcher (2 starters only), 5 min 54sec, 1½ lengths
2nd – 13/11/1862 Flemington Melbourne Cup (value of the stake 880sovs), 2 miles, 1st Archer, 3min 46 sec, 6-8 lengths
1st – 15/11/1862 Flemington Victorian Turf Club Great Hcp, (100sovs), 3 miles (9st 8lb), 2nd Prince, 5min 53sec, 3 lengths
1st – 3/12/1862 Ballaarat, Ballaarat Hcp, (220sovs), 1½ miles, 2nd Falcon, 2min 47¼ sec, 4 lengths
1st – 4/12/1862 Ballaarat Great Metropolitan Goldfields Hcp (200sovs), 2 miles 2 furlongs 42 yards, 2nd O.K., 4min 42 sec, 6 lengths
1st – 5/12/1862 Ballaarat Town Plate (100sovs), 3 miles, 2nd O.K., 6min 4sec, 2 lengths
2nd – 4/3/1863 Dunedin Champion Race, 3 miles, 1st Ladybird, 5min 55sec, 2 lengths
2nd – 5/3/1863 Dunedin Otago Jockey Club Great Hcp, 2 miles, (10st 1lb), 1st Ultima, 4min 1sec, length
1st – 6/3/1863 Dunedin Town Plate (125 sovs), 3 miles, 2nd Golden Cloud, 6min 3½ sec
2nd – 6/3/1863 Dunedin Forced Hcp, 1½ miles, 1st Young Alma, 2min 56sec,

1863-1864 Eight Years: 3 starts 1/1/1/-

2nd – 1/10/1863 Ballaarat Seventh Champion Race (300 sovs 2nd place), 3 miles, 1st Barwon, 3rd Archer, 6mins 4sec, 6-7 lengths
1st – 16/3/1864 Wagga Eighth Intercolonial Champion Race (£1100), 3 miles, 2nd Ada, 6min 50sec, 3-4 lengths
3rd – 18/3/1864 Wagga Town Plate, 2 miles, 1st Playboy, 3min 47sec

1864-1865 Nine Years: 1 start -/-/-/1

Unpl – 14/2/1865 Launceston Champion Race, 3 miles, 1st Panic, 5min 53sec

« Last Edit: 2016-May-18, 07:34 PM by tontonan »

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-31, 12:40 AM Reply #444 »
Great stuff pwa.

I'll add some window dressing, some random thoughts and a little bit of context...

In 1860's the railways were young and only stretched a few miles out of the the capitals.  The line to Geelong was only completed in 1859. The railways were still inching their way toward the Murray in Ned Kelly's time and the Murray was not breached until the mid 1880's.  In the meantime the space between the rail heads was the domain of bush rangers like Kelly and Mad Dog Morgan and Ben Hall.  It was the ability to transport large posses of men and horses quickly to these semi remote areas that eventually ended the reign of the bush rangers but until those railways linked up armed men on fast horses were a force to be reckoned with. 

The Barb was stolen by bushrangers as a foal;  the great old broodmare Sappho was stolen and recovered three times by George Lee; and Ben Hall had a habit of stealing the same horse, Troubadour, and returning him worse for wear when the job was done.  Troubadour was a promising racehorse.  He led the way in the AJC Grand Handicap of 1862 before ducking inside a post and running into the bushes.  After that his career was confined to the Riverina - and occasionally as Hall's getaway.  He eventually ended up the property of Charley Lloyd, the VRC committeeman, and when the horse died no less that nine slugs were recovered post mortem that had been intended for Hall.

For taste of what was involved transporting a horse to Wagga Wagga in the early 1860s....


“P.J.Keighran, member of the Melbourne fim of John George Dougharty and Co, cattle salesman, owned a horse called “Mormon”. In his day, Mormon cut almost as big a figure as “Carbine” 30 years later. Carrying 10.1 (stone) he ran second to “Archer” (9.7) in the 1861 Melbourne Cup, and was again runner up to Archer in 1862. He won the coveted Champion Stakes in 1861 and 1864, and was second in 1863 when Archer filled third place. But Pat Keighran's confidence in Mormon's ability the 1864 Champion Stakes (was) equalled by his fear of bushrangers between Albury and Wagga.

“So Keighran joined forces with a friend who was also taking a horse to Wagga. Said Keighran: “The haunts of Dan Morgan, the bushranger, are between Wagga and Albury. The bigger our party the better it will be for us.”

“Armed with a double barrelled gun, Keighran headed the expedition in a cart. David Jones, trainer of Mormon, lead that horse, keeping about 20 to 30 yards behind the cart, with the third member of the party a similar distance away. Jones carried a small revolver. They agreed to fight if necessary.

“Nothing happened on this journey and the horses were stabled about a mile out of Wagga, where Mr Bill Simpson, a noted jockey of the period, was to ride Mormon in the Champion Stakes.

“Simpson travelled by coach from Melbourne to Albury and thence to Wagga on horseback, but because of his late arrival, Keighran imagined him to be lost. Simpson rode up to the stable door about 2 am on the day of the race and called out to Jones who was sleeping in Mormon's box. From his hut about 20 yards away, Keighran heard his shouts. Seizing his revolver, he yelled, “If you are Morgan and attempt to get off that horse I will put a bullet through you”, the frantic reply was: “Don't shoot! It's Billy Simpson.”

“After this, Tom Keighran received a letter from Morgan: “Mormon” is quite safe, I know you Keighran.” As they had grown up in the same area as boys, they had played together at the same school.

“After murdering seven men, Morgan was eventually caught of “Peechelba” Station at Wangaratta on April 9 1865.

“After he selected a horse to ride away with that Sunday morning, he was shot by a man in a posse collected from Wangaratta. He bled to death in a corner of a barn.”

(From Early Beginnings - Henty Centenary 1886-1986)

This is Zoe.  You can measure the status of a horse in colonial times by whether or not they had a commonly known nickname,  their picture painted, a poem composed about them, a pub named after them or a song published in their honour.   Zoe was highly regarded.  Apart from the above portrait there is a published piano 'galop' in her honour.  It was a tradition that continued well into the 20th century.  There was a Petrel Polka, a Carbine Polka, a Veno Galop, a Newhaven Gavotte, a number of Phar Lap songs, 'Ajax Marches On' right up to the Goodiwindi Grey song dedicated to Gunsynd.  (A 'galop' was a fast dance similar to a polka.)

the artwork is interesting.  There seems to be a degree of agreement between the artists that she was a chestnut of sorts with great length of rein, a fine head and the backend of a washer woman.   The coat of arms, drawn here 40 years before they were formally accepted with the stars and bars of the Southern Cross suggests an early dash of nationalism.  And of course Zoe appears to be flying, limbs outstretched, impossibly, but that was the customary way of depicting the galloping horse before Muybridge's famous photographs cleared the matter up (and even then the custom continued until the turn of the century)

Tie The Knot is not the only notable horse that can be traced back to Zoe's dam, Flora McIvor.  High Caste, Nightmarch, Trenton, Patrobas, Vanderhum, Polo Prince, Strawberry Road and Rancher are just some others that stem from the old girl.

In Zoe's record it seems her sister Flora was more than competitive with her in New Zealand. 
« Last Edit: 2018-Aug-22, 05:59 PM by tontonan »

Offline timw

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« 2014-May-31, 01:50 AM Reply #445 »
TAILS (AUS) 1965                              
79 starts, 23 wins (6 x Group 1), 9 seconds and 5 thirds.  Win % 29.1, Place % 46.8.                                  
TWO YEARS:  1967-1968  Starts 7: 3-1-0-3                                 
7th-13   20/01/1968.   1.75L x 6L   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Two Year Old Hcp   5f.   1005m.   7.12.   50kg   0.58.5.   Good   Kaoru Star 8.12 4/5F 1st
4th-17   27/01/1968.   Hd x 1.25L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC Cotswold Hills Maiden Nursery Hcp   6f.   1207m.   8.4.   52.5kg   1.14.7.   Holding   Dark Blend 8.6 3/1F 1st
1st-11   13/04/1968.   2L x 2L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC 1st Airport Maiden Hcp    Abt. 6f   Abt. 1200m.   8.4.   52.5kg   1.13.5.   Good, 1/1F.   Kiern 8.0 25/1 2nd
1st-10   11/05/1968.   0.5L x 2.5L   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC 1st Two Year Old Hcp   6f.   1207m.   8.5.   53kg   1.15.6.   Heavy, 3/1.   La Belle 7.5 10/1 2nd
1st-12   18/05/1968.   1.25L x hd   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC 2nd Alfred Deakin Nursery Hcp   7f.   1408m.   8.10.   55.5kg   1.27.5.   Good, 1/1F.   Dollar Glance 8.3 10/1 2nd
6th-11   1/06/1968.   2L x 8L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC 1st Wattle Brae Hcp   6f.   1207m.   9.2.   58kg   1.11.4.   Good,   Ascot Girl 8.5 4/1 1st
2nd-7   8/06/1968.   4L x 3L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC Sires' Produce Stakes   7f.   1408m.   8.10.   55.5kg   1.24.3. (ERR)   Good, 6/1.   Rajah 8.10 4/9F 1st
THREE YEARS:  1968-1969  Starts 9: 2-1-1-5                                 
3rd-11   14/08/1968.   2L x 1.5L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC 1st Cowan Cowan Novice Hcp   7f.   1408m.   8.12.   56kg   1.29.7.   Good, 9/2F.   Brown Glove 8.0 7/1 1st
4th-14   7/09/1968.   1.25L x ½ hd   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC 1st Taburpin Novice Hcp   8f.   1609m.   9.0.   57kg   1.38.9.   Good, 2/1F.   No Return 8.2 3/1 1st
4th-11   21/09/1968.   0.5L x 1.5L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rosehill Guineas   10f.   2011m.   8.5.   53kg   2.03.0.   Good, 9/2F.   Royal Account 8.5 20/1 1st
5th-14   5/10/1968.   Sht ½ hd x 0.75L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Derby   12f.   2414m.   8.10.   55.5kg   2.31.2.   Good,    Wilton Park 8.10 8/1 1st
2nd-7   19/10/1968.   4L x nk   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC Quensland Guineas   8f.   1609m.   8.10.   55.5kg   1.36.2.   Good, 6/1.   Flying Ace 8.10 1/3F 1st
1st-4   9/11/1968.   2L x ½ hd   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC Derby Stakes (G1)   12f.   2414m.   8.10.   55.5kg   2.35.1.   Heavy, 5/2.   Golven 8.10 2/1F 2nd
13th-15   29/03/1969.   Nk x sht hd   Warwick Farm, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Liverpool Hcp   7f.   1408m.   7.8.   48kg   1.24.9.   Good,   Cyron (NZ) 9.1 9/4F 1st
5th-11   12/04/1969.   Lg nk x nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Cumberland Hcp   8f.   1609m.   7.6.   48kg   1.36.6.   Good,   Eternal Youth 8.0 5/1 1st
1st-12   26/04/1969.   ½ hd x 1.25L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Fox Valley Hcp   10f.   2011m.   8.0.   51kg   2.04.0.   Good, 4/1.   Great Exploits 8.12 9/4F 2nd
FOUR YEARS:  1969-1970  Starts 22: 7-0-1-14                                 
7th-9   2/08/1969.   Lg nk x nk   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Oakville Flying Hcp   6.5f.   1308m.   7.11.   49.5kg   1.19.1.   Good   King's Delight 8.11 8/1 1st
8th-10   16/08/1969.   1.75L x sht ½ hd   Warwick Farm, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Cambelltown Hcp   6f.   1207m.   7.8.   48kg   1.13.2.   Heavy   Nagambie 7.2 6/1 1st
4th-11   30/08/1969.   1L x 0.75L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Terrey Hills Hcp   10f.   2011m.   8.6.   53.5kg   2.15.4.   Heavy   Cardiff Prince 8.7 5/1 1st
4th-12   13/09/1969.   Lg nk x sht nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   Tattersall's Club James Barnes Plate   10f.   2011m.   8.1.   51.5kg   2.05.2.   Good   Wiedersehen 8.13 15/1 1st
1st-10   20/09/1969.   0.5L x 1.25L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rosehill Cup   10f.   2011m.   7.11.   49.5kg   2.06.2.   Good, 2/1F.   Lochcourt 8.0 10/1 2nd
1st-15   27/09/1969.   2.5L x 1L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Sydney Turf Club Cup   12f.   2414m.   8.3.   52kg   2.31.2.   Good, 4/1.   Honourbright (NZ) 7.13 9/2 2nd
1st-15   6/10/1969.   0.75L x 1.5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC The Metropolitan (G1)   13f.   2615m.   8.0.   51kg   2.45.4.   Good 3/1F   Cachondeo 7.7 25/1 2nd
1st-11   15/10/1969.   3L x 0.5L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Coongy Hcp   12f.   2414m.   8.12.   56kg   2.30.2.   Fast, 2/1F.   Port Douglas 7.8 10/1 2nd
7th-10   25/10/1969.   2.5L x 2L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC W.S. Cox Plate   10f.   2011m.   9.0.   57kg   2.05.4.   Fast, 15/1.   Daryl's Joy 7.11 7/2 1st
1st-13   1/11/1969.   1.25L x 4L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Hotham Handicap   12f.   2414m.   9.0.   57kg   2.33.6.   Good, 6/4F.   General Command 9.1 5/1 2nd
7th-23*   4/11/1969.   Hd x 2L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Melbourne Cup   16f.   3219m.   8.8.   54.5kg   3.21.5.   Good, 2/1F.   Rain Lover 9.7 (60kg) 8/1 1st
* Big Philou was scratched by stewards 39 minutes before the start of the race, he had been drugged.                                  
9th-10   21/02/1970.   0.75L x 1.25L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Lidcombe Flying Hcp   7f.   1408m.   9.5.   59.5kg   1.23.3.   Good   Royal Parma 8.10 7/1 1st
4th-7   7/03/1970.   0.75L x 2.5L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rawson Stakes   7.5f.   1508m.   9.0.   57kg   1.30.6.   Good,    Broker's Tip 9.0 6/4F 1st
3rd-4   14/03/1970.   0.75L x 1.25L   Warwick Farm, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Chipping Norton Stakes   10f.   2011m.   9.0.   57kg   2.03.2.   Good, 9/4.   Great Exploits 9.2 5/4F 1st
8th-21   28/03/1970.   Nk x 0.75L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Doncaster Hcp   8f.   1609m.   8.11.   56kg   1.35.4.   Fast,   Broker's Tip 9.0 7/1 1st
Fell-14   1/04/1970.   2L x ½ hd   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   12f.   2414m.   8.4.   52.5kg   2.35.1.   Good,    Panvale 7.7 80/1 1st
10th-12   18/04/1970.   Sht ½ hd x 0.5L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Astronomer Green Hcp   7f.   1408m.   9.9.   61kg   1.23.7.   Good   Iga Ninja 7.2 12/1 1st
4th-9   29/04/1970.   Nk x 2L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Bi-Centenary Celebrations Hcp   10f.   2011m.   9.7.   60kg   2.04.3.   Good, 9/4F.   Flirtatious  7.11 7/1 1st
1st-8   9/05/1970.   Sht ½ hd x sht ½ hd   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Coral Sea Hcp   10f.   2011m.   9.6.   60kg   2.04.0.   Fast, 7/1.   Salem 7.4 5/1 2nd
7th-8   23/05/1970.   0.5L x 2L   Warwick Farm, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Warwick May Hcp   11f.   2212m.   9.9.   61kg   2.02.8.   Good   Indian Bronze 6.13 16/1 1st
1st-14   6/06/1970.   0.5L x 0.5L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC Sir Winston Churchill Stakes   11f.   2212m.   9.4.   59kg   2.17.0.   Good, 4/1EF   Panvale 9.3 6/1 2nd
7th-15   15/06/1970.   0.5L x nse   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC Brisbane Cup   16f.   3219m.   9.0.   57kg   3.22.9.   Good, 3/1F.   Cachondeo 8.2 40/1 1st
FIVE YEARS:  1970-1971  Starts 20: 5-2-2-11                                 
5th-9   22/08/1970.   Hd x 1L   Warwick Farm, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Warwick Stakes   7f.   1408m.   9.3.   58.5kg   1.24.7.   Good   Royal Show 7.6 8/11F 1st
2nd-12   12/09/1970.   0.5L x sht ½ hd   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   Tattersall's Club James Barnes Plate   10f.   2011m.   9.3.   58.5kg   2.08.1.   Good, 8/1.   Great Exploits 9.2 16/1 1st
1st-10   19/09/1970.   2.25L x 0.75L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rosehill Cup   10f.   2011m.   9.5.   59.5kg   2.05.4.   Good, 15/4.   Roman Consul 9.9 7/1 2nd
4th-15   26/09/1970.    Sht ½ hd x lg hd   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Sydney Turf Club Cup   12f.   2414m.   9.7.   60kg   2.31.5.   Dead   Regal Jane 8.5 3/1F 1st
1st-13   5/10/1970.   0.75L x 1.5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC The Metropolitan (G1)   13f.   2615m.   8.13.   56.5kg   2.45.0.   Good 3/1F   Charlemagne 7.3 12/1 2nd
15th-16   17/10/1970.   0.5L x 2.5L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Cup   12f.   2414m.   9.5.   59.5kg   2.31.2.   Good, 12/1.   Beer Street 7.11 15/1 1st
2nd-16   24/10/1970.   3L x nk   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC W.S. Cox Plate   10f.   2011m.   9.4.   59kg   2.05.5.   Good, 15/1.   Abdul 7.12 33/1 1st
9th-23   3/11/1970.   0.75L x ½ hd   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Melbourne Cup   16f.   3219m.   9.1.   57.5kg   3.19.7.   Fast, 12/1.   Baghdad Note 8.7 25/1 1st
3rd-11   7/11/1970.   Hd x sht hd   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Fisher Special Plate   12f.   2414m.   9.0.   57kg   2.31.5.   Good, 7/1.   Fileur 8.7 12/1 1st
12th13   13/02/1971.   2.25L x 0.5l   Canterbury, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Lidcombe Flying Hcp   7f. 80y.   1481m.   9.9.   61kg   1.31.6.   Heavy   Rough 'N' Tumble 7.7 11/4F 1st
4th-9   20/02/1971.   ½ nk x nk   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC St. George Stakes   9f.   1810m.   9.2.   58kg   1.50.3.   Fast,   Gay Icarus 8.3 6/4F 1st
3rd-19   8/03/1971.    ½ hd x 4L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Australian Cup   10f.   2011m.   9.2.   58kg   2.02.1.   Fast, 9/1.   Gay Icarus 7.10 9/4F 1st
5th-7   13/03/1971.   Hd x 1.5L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   12f.   2414m.   9.3.   58.5kg   2.30.4.   Fast, 7/4F.   Fileur 9.3 16/1 1st
6th-14   27/03/1971.   1.75L x 0.5L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Tancred Cup   12f.   2414m.   9.5.   59.5kg   2.31.4. (ECR)   Dead, 11/2.   Natural Trump 8.1 25/1 1st
1st-17   3/04/1971.   3L x 2.5L   Warwick Farm, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Warwick Farm Hcp   12f.   2414m.   9.4.   59kg   2.27.8.   Good, 13/2.   Regal Jane 8.12 11/2 2nd
11th-19   12/04/1971.   0.75L x ½ nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Sydney Cup   16f.   3219m.   9.3.   58.5kg   3.20.3. (CR)   5/1EF.   Gallic Temple 7.3 20/1 1st
7th-9   29/05/1971.   1.5L x 2L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Naremburn Flying Hcp   7f.   1408m.   9.6.   60kg   1.25.9.   Good   Spillane 8.2 1/1F 1st
1st-8   14/06/1971.   Sht ½ hd x 3L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Winter Stakes   10f.   2011m.   9.11.   62kg   2.09.6.   Dead, 4/1.   Grey Moon 7.4 16/1 2nd
10th-18   26/06/1971.   0.5L x 0.75L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    Tattersall's RC Tattersall's Cup   10.5f.   2112m.   9.2   58kg   2.10.0.      Planet Kingdom 8.4 9/1 1st
1st-20   10/07/1971.   Nse x 1.25L   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Doomben Cup (G1)   11f.   2212m.   9.2.   58kg   2.15.8.   Good, 9/1   Bluelough 8.8 50/1 2nd
SIX YEARS:  1971-1972  Starts 21: 6-5-1-9                                 
6th-7   28/08/1971.   0.75L x 1.75L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Forestville Flying Hcp   7f.   1408m.   9.12.   62.5kg   1.25.5.   Good,   Lowland Luck 8.6 5/1 1st
1st-7   13/09/1971.   2L x 1L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   Tattersall's Club Chelmsford Stakes   9f.   1810m.   9.4.   59kg   1.51.0.   Good, 11/4   Altai Khan 7.9 25/1 2nd
2nd-11   18/09/1971.   1.25L x 4.5L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rosehill Cup   10f.   2011m.   9.7.   60kg   2.03.8.   Dead, 7/4.   Oncidon 7.13 6/4F 1st
1st-11   25/09/1971.   1.5L x 1.25L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC STC Cup   12f.*   2414m.   9.7.   60kg   2.32.7.   Good, 5/2F.   Chancellor 7.9 3/1 2nd
2nd-10   4/10/1971.   3L x sht nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC The Metropolitan   13f.   2615m.   9.8.   61kg   2.43.2.   Good, 3/1.   Oncidon 7.5 5/4F 1st
6th-18   16/10/1971.   2L x 6L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Cup   12f.   2414m.   9.5.   59.5kg   2.28.0.   Good, 25/1.   Gay Icarus 9.2 7/2F 1st
6th-13   23/10/1971.   0.5L x 1L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC W.S. Cox Plate   10f.   2011m.   9.4.   59kg   2.03.9.   Good, 15/1.   Tauto 9.4 12/1 1st
3rd-21   2/11/1971.   1.25L x 1.5L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Melbourne Cup   16f.   3219m.   9.0.   57kg   3.19.5.   Fast, 15/1.   Silver Knight (NZ) 8.9 10/1 1st
2nd-7   6/11/1971.   2L x 6L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC C. B.Fisher Special Plate   12f.   2414m.   9.4.   59kg   2.34.9.   Slow 3/1EF.   Classic Mission 7.11 3/1EF 1st
*ATR states race over 10f. which appears to be a typo.                                 
11th-11   5/02/1972.   2.25L x 3.5L   Canterbury, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Frederick Clissold Hcp   6f.   1207m.   9.2.   58kg   1.12.0.   Dead,   Gunsynd 9.7 (60kg) 11/8F 1st
5th-11   12/02/1972.   2.75L x 1.25L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Girraween Flying Hcp   7f.   1408m.   9.11.   62kg   1.23.8.   Good,    Merrill's Luck 7.4 13/4 1st
2nd-10   26/02/1972.   1.5L x nk   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC St. George Stakes   9f.   1810m.   9.2.   58kg   1.50.1.   Fast, 7/4F.   Cyron (NZ) 9.2 11/4 1st
4th-19   13/03/1972.   4L x 0.5L   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Australian Cup run as 10th Asian Racing Association Conference Cup   10f.   2011m.   9.4.   59kg   2.02.0.   Fast, 4/1F.   Jan's Beau 8.8 25/1 1st
1st-14   18/03/1972.   Lg hd x 1L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC H E Tancred Cup (G1)   12f.   2414m.   9.3.   58.5kg   2.29.6. (RR)   Good, 1/1F   Big Butch 7.7 16/1 2nd
4th-12   3/04/1972.   3L x 5L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Sydney Cup   16f.   3219m.   9.2.   58kg   3.30.3.   Heavy, 8/1.   Dark Suit 7.8 16/1 1st
1st-5   8/04/1972.   0.75L x 3L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Randwick Stakes (G1)   14f.   2816m.   9.3.   58.5kg   3.03.8   Dead, 13/4   Gunsynd 9.0 4/7F 2nd
1st-12   3/06/1972.   Lg nk x 2.5L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC Sir Winston Churchill Stakes   11f.   2212m.   9.6.   60kg   2.17.9.   Holding, 8/1.   Mode 8.3 4/1 2nd
1st-5   10/06/1972.   2.5L x 1.5L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC P.J. O'Shea Stakes   10.5f.   2112m.   9.0.   57kg   2.09.2.   Good, 1/2F.   Turfcutter 8.8 7/1 2nd
2nd-22   12/06/1972.   3L x 2.5L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    QTC Brisbane Cup   16f.   3219m.   9.4.   59kg   3.21.9.   Good, 2/1F.   Mode 8.1 5/1 1st
8th-14   24/06/1972.   Nk x nk   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS    Tattersall's RC Tattersall's Cup   10.5f.   2112m.   9.10.   62kg   2.10.0.   Dead, 2/1F.   Buon Giorno 8.3 16/1 1st
4th-14   8/07/1972.   ½ hd x lg hd   Doomben, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   BATC Doomben Cup   11f.   2212m.   9.8.   61kg   2.17.0.   Good,    Knee High 7.5 25/1 1st
« Last Edit: 2016-May-18, 07:34 PM by tontonan »

Offline timw

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« 2014-May-31, 01:56 AM Reply #446 »
That's it from me for a while as I have to find some research time to finish off the details of some NZedders from the 60's. 

Offline firezuki

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« 2014-May-31, 04:46 AM Reply #447 »
I reckon you've earned a break.   :thumbsup:

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-May-31, 12:31 PM Reply #448 »
Outstanding work timw.

I would like to make the records on this thread as accessible as possible for anyone who searches for them and this juncture might be a good time to do that.

It's awkward to index the forum posts because there doesn't seem to be any way of linking to individual forum posts only the pages on which they appear.

So I am thinking of a stand alone HTML/DOC document containing all the records on the thread with its own index.  Consolidating the records into a single document is a fairly simple cut and paste routine and indexing them within the document is dead easy.  There could an alphabetical index and a chronological index and each horses record could be located with one click.

What I need to do is talk to the forum administrators to see if there is someway of appending such a document to the forum in a manner that it could be readily found either as a 'sticky' or part of the forum menu.

Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions in this regard ?

Edit :  I have attached a rough example of what I mean.  Post attachments are limited to 100kb and this little doc is already 70kb so obviously a full index would exceed the limits as an attachment.
« Last Edit: 2014-May-31, 01:20 PM by tontonan »

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2014-May-31, 02:50 PM Reply #449 »
The Tait Family

Racing Victoria | Official Home for thoroughbred horse racing news, fields and information in Victoria
 Some of the finest horses in the post-war period have been bred by the Tait family at their magnificent agricultural property near Jugiong in southern New South Wales. They have operated with a relatively small band of broodmares, and no stallions, being content to send mares to expertly selected sires.

The Tait family owned racehorses at least as far back as the 1920s, but it has been in the past 60 years that they have really made their mark. The family has given the thoroughbred world horses of the calibre of Tie The Knot, Spinning Hill, Wild Iris, Cabochon, Baguette, Stirrup Cup, Whisked, Heirloom, In Love, Cream Puff, Indian Chief, and many others.

Baguette won the Golden Slipper Stakes, AJC Sires’ Produce Stakes and Champagne Stakes in 1970 and as a three-year-old won the Newmarket Handicap.

In more recent times Tie the Knot won two Sydney Cups and 11 other Group 1 races, while Wild Iris took home the 2004 AJC Oaks.

Spinning Hill, recently retired, was a brilliant sprinter against all comers in Sydney and Melbourne, and Wild Iris won the 2004 AJC Oaks.

This thumbnail account of the Tait family's influence on racing traces it back to the 1920's.

Tonto's painting of Zoe above was dedicated to John Tait.

If he was of the same family, and given Tie the Knot's connection to Zoe the odds are short, this influence might have been evident way back in the early 1800's