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Race Records Of Champion Racehorses - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK

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Offline wily ole dog

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« 2014-Jun-11, 07:41 PM Reply #500 »
Of course mate, post their results :beer:

Offline pwa

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« 2014-Jun-11, 08:34 PM Reply #501 »
Here you go Wily; Judges were Jack Elliott, Rollo Roylance, Ray Huxley, George Nye, Kevin Ryan, Ken Sturt, Syd Lyons and Bryan Martin. They placed all the horses in finishing order

2yo race: (based on 2yo record) Vain in front of Todman, then Baguette, Mollison, Fine and Dandy

Steeple: Crisp over Winterset and Redditch 3rd

Oaks: Surround from Light Fingers, Briseis and Research

Metric Mile: Bernborough (5 first votes, 2 second, 1 third), Ajax, Amounis, Chatham

3200: Phar Lap just from Carbine then Galilee, Rising Fast and Peter Pan (5 of the judges picked Carbine as winner, Galilee 2 and Phar Lap and Redcraze 1 each! One judge had Carbine "surprisingly low")

Sprint: Manikato from Aurie's Star, Placid Ark and Sky High

Derby: Tulloch by a street from Poseidon, Grand Flaneur and Manfred

2000 metres: Kingston Town from Gloaming, Tobin Bronze and Dulcify (3 had the King as the winner, 2 for Dulcify and 1 each for Comic Court, Gloaming and Beau Vite)

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-Jun-11, 10:16 PM Reply #502 »
pwa,

Thanks for the message.  I certainly needed to test it.

I got your message in my email.   That part worked fine but I couldn't find your message on the site.  Then it dawned on me : The colour of the text of the message is the same as the colour of the page background.  So I changed the colour of the text to white - which changed the colour of all the text on the blog to white, which couldn't be read against the colour of the 'paper' background.  Blogs are like that.  You don't have full control over the format.  You have work within the limits of the platform.  I have been trying to figure out a solution ever since and have jerried one up but it means I have to alter every page.  There is one page per season.  There are 90 pages on the blog - one for each season. 

You know the story about the light at the end of the tunnel ?  It was a train after all.







Anyway, I enjoyed the Greatest races.  I was impressed that my name sake actually got a run in the mile.  I don't think I would have been able to find a place for him. 

I am always amused when people think they can determine which horse from a lifetime ago was best when the reality is that most of us struggle finding a winner in the races that were run 5 minutes ago.  We all get very wise in retrospect.  I like the fantasy race concept but rather than have them 'run' and rather than all the argument about which horse is best I would much prefer to see pundits frame their market for such race - and distribute their opinion accordingly.

I mean instead of arguing Bernborough v Super Impose in a definitive way I'd prefer someone to say 'Bernborough $1.15, Super Impose $9.00' That would be a more realistic expression of an opinion when it comes to comparing horses. (The fact is Bernborough was beaten twice in 18 starts out of Toowoomba so my market is spot on.  Anyone suggesting $1.01 is definitely unders)

If everyone framed their own market for these fantasy races a collective 'opinion totalizator' could be determined from them which would be interesting.  It wouldn't answer which horse is best but it would express the expectations of the pundits......

.....bearing in mind that according to the mystical laws of the racecourse expectations are only met between a quarter and a third of the time.  And there is no reason why that law shouldn't apply to a fantasy race of champions as well. 

After all, Bernborough was a champion, no doubt about it.  But he never had to beat Bernborough.

Offline pwa

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« 2014-Jun-12, 09:11 AM Reply #503 »
We all love comparing horses but it is so difficult to even agree on a Horse of the Year let alone a decade or longer. Winning percentages are one criterion but don't factor in those horses using races as a build-up to a specific target. Some don't handle particular tracks or ways of going. Joanne was a star in Sydney. Lord was the King of Caulfield. Auction was an absolute superstar on the sand-track at Albion Park during the war-years but how does that form translate outside Queensland - a bit like Rough Habit.

The acknowledged champions of the early part of last century and the late 19th were the durable ones who had to be able to stay.

One of the earliest attempts to canvas a wide range of expert opinions on Australia's best racehorse was done in a syndicated article in November 1911. Here's a clumsily edited text copy of that article

AUSTRALIA'S BEST RACEHORSE.
THE OPINIONS OF EXPERTS

In an article dealing with the question of which is the best Australian racehorse, the 'Argus' says:— Most racing men, if asked offhand which was the best horse that-ever raced in Australia, would at once answer, .'Carbine.' There are some good judges of racing, however, who do not share the general opinion. Going by re cords, there can be no doubt Carbine was the best. He started 43 times, won 33 races, was second six times, and third three times. He was only once Unplaced, and that was when he was not quite himself. He carried the record weight 10st.5lb,) in the record field (39), and in record time up to that stage (3min. 28¼sec), in his Melbourne Cup. In stakes alone he won £29,476. No other horse in Australia has succeeded in winning £20.000 in stakes, though Poseidon, with his 19 wins, 4 seconds, -and 3 thirds out of 33 starts, got very close to it.

Walter Hickenbotham, who is generally recognised as Australia's leading trainer, prepared Carbine for most of his Australian races, and he has no hesitation in plumping for him as the best horse Australia' ever saw, 'and there were, few in England to beat him, in his opinion —over three miles, at any rate. Trafalgar, who is a grandson of Carbine, he ranks as the next best horse he has had through his hands. Newhaven was the best three year-old he ever had charge of.

Mr. R. G. Casey, chairman of the V.R.C., is of the same opinion as Hickenbotham. He says:'.l was intimately connected with Carbine during the whole of his career on the Australian turf (as I was in partnership with his owner, the late' Mr Donald Wallace during the time he owned him.) He was docile, courageous, very fast, a grand stayer,- had a wonderfully true action, and was a great; weight-carrier. In fact, he had every good attribute that characterised the greatest historic English thoroughbreds. In addition to his wonderful career on the turf, he -sired -Spearmint, who is esteemed as the greatest English Derby winner of modern times.'

 Mr. Archie Yuille (of William C. Yuille and Co.) gives his vote in tho. following; order: — Carbine 1, Abercorn' 2 .First King 3.

 Mr. W. A. Menzies, V,-R,C. handicapper is with those who ' consider Carbine the greatest racehorse Australia has ever known. He possessed speed, staying powers, and weight-carrying capabilities, and was a horse of exceptional consistency.
 
Jas. Scobie plumps for Carbine, and picks out Emir as the' beat horse that ever went through his hands. But for a curious defect Emir, who was a grandson of Carbine, would have proved himself even a greater horse than, he did. Wakeful and La Carabine in his opinion, were the best mares Australia ever saw.

R. Bradfield, who trained those good-horses Patron, Portsea, and .The Victory, places Carbine first and Abercorn second;
 
Jacamar's trainer, J. Burton, favours Carbine. He is inclined to give his second, vote to Mooltan. He was a very good horse, but unlucky.. He was, he says, never really seen at his best. Mountain King (a grandson of Carbine) was the best he ever had through his hands. If his wind had not been affected he would have been a wonder.
 
J. Siely, trainer of Aurofodina and Didus, unhesitatingly votes for Carbine.

The veteran Flemington trainer, W. A. Filgate, has a champion of his own. ' He says: — 'On the question of. Australia's greatest racehorse, no doubt, you will find a great diversity of opinion. Men in the sixties and seventies will be as loyal to their champion as the men of to-day are to theirs. As far as my opinion goes, one horse stands out absolutely on his own, and that is Fishhook. He could both go fast and stay.: He is the only horse I ever saw during over 40 years' experience that could beat fresh horses through and at the end of a/distance gallop.'

Mr. J. Wilson, jun,a racing man of long experience, gives his vote this way— First King 1, Carbine .2, Abercorn 3.

J. H. Hill, the veteran South Australian trainer, who had Newstead and Auraria, decides in favour of The Barb.

Mr. Harry Dawson, an old New South Wales racing man, who is on his annual visit to Melbourne to see the Cup run, expressed the opinion that Carbine was, without doubt, the best, and he had seen them all. He would place The Barb second. The best performance, he ever witnessed, not excepting Carbine's in the Melbourne Cup, was Goldsbrough's in the Metropolitan in -1875. He carried 9st. 2lb., and ran the: mile and a half in 2min. 32 1/5 sec, which was a splendid feat, seeing that .the track was not nearly so fast then as now, and that Goldsbrough was not shoeless. . It  was not the general custom in those days to run horses barefooted in races. '

The well-known Caulfield trainer, Mr- Isaac Foulsham, who -won the Melbourne' Cup and other races with Malua, arid scored numerous other important wins, admits that Carbine was the best over a long' distance, but Malua, in his opinion, was more brilliant. Though Malua won the Melbourne Cup, he may not have been a true stayer. He had such great pace that he was going easily all the time in his race, and his stamina was never put to a severe test.

Mr. John, Leek, who won the Caulfield. Cup with Ingliston., and has been a prominent figure on the turf for a great many years, gives his vote to :Carbine, but he thinks that he was not a great deal better than First King, whose three miles' .trial'', before winning his first Champion Race in 1878. was a marvellously good one-

Mr. J..C. Bowden, who has raced numerous horses, has a slight leaning towards: Carbine, but he thinks there was very little between him and Abercorn. He was'; certain that Carbine had not that sustained run at his top that Abercorn had

Mr. W. Maher, a well-known racing identity, whose turf connection extends back a great number of years, says the question is not debatable. Carbine was, without the least doubt, the best Australia ever saw, but First King was also a great horse, and he was much more difficult to. train than Carbine, or his record would have been better even than it was.

Though Grand Flaneur was unbeaten, very few of the racing people asked favour him as being  the best. racehorse 'that ran in Australia'. "


What is surprising today is the love for First King. What is perhaps not so surprising is the lack of affection for Wakeful and Poseidon given how recently they were racing at the time.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2014-Jun-12, 11:38 AM Reply #504 »
PP7,

Thanks for the speedy correction. 

It's a common error in Miller's Guide records.  The most common error in the MG records is that the trailing zero in 8.10 is dropped displaying the weight at 8.0.  Take Ajax for example, the first record on  the records thread.  In both Sires Produce and both Derbies his weight is given at 8.1 when it should be 8.10 because of the trailing zero problem (Excel drops the zero unless the column is formatted as text so it is a problem for 7.10, 9.10 etc) 

You'll also find that odds sometimes display as dates (eg. 8-Jan instead of 8-1).  Giving the second placed horse as the winner is the next most common error but only occurs occasionally.



Had noticed that with the weights. There is some corruption in the records because of this. Can only be fixed by manually changing it.

At some point I also noted the problems with Excel converting the odds to a date. Dammed if I can find a way to turn that off.

In some of the latter records I have put a colon after the odds and this works:




Offline Authorized

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« 2014-Jun-12, 12:25 PM Reply #505 »
Yes, I was doddling a fantasy Randwick Mile field earlier today when my new fridge arrived.  I like fantasy fields more than playing who is better than who.  I have no idea who is better than who and I am always surprised that others are so adamant about it.

The idea of a series of threads compiling the fields for the ultimate race meeting tickles me though.

Could I ask you to start such a thread/s ? I am struggling to articulate what is required.

How would we come to a conclusion ?

My idea is a field of 16 over the Doncaster course, A field of 18 over the Caulfield Cup course and a field of 24 over the Melbourne Cup course.


Offline tontonan

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« 2014-Jun-12, 01:34 PM Reply #506 »
Had noticed that with the weights. There is some corruption in the records because of this. Can only be fixed by manually changing it.

At some point I also noted the problems with Excel converting the odds to a date. Dammed if I can find a way to turn that off.

In some of the latter records I have put a colon after the odds and this works:






I have discussed the issue with Dennis Huxley at Miller's Guide and he is equally exasperated by the problem.  Changing the set weights classic races is easy enough but in the handicaps every weight ending in x.1 would need to be verified before it could be corrected.  Big job.

As for the date/odds issue I have surrendered.  For a copied record I

-  paste the Excel table into Word
-  highlight the odds collumn
- use Find and Replace (CTRL +F)
-  Replace Jan with 1

This will remove all the Jan's with 1's in the selected column but it is often just as easy to do it manually

If writing a new record placing a ' before you enter 6-1 (i.e. '6-1) will render the entry as text regardless of the column format

I am sure an Excel guru will have a better solution.



Offline tontonan

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« 2014-Jun-12, 01:52 PM Reply #507 »
Author,

I'd love to but I am not sure I can commit to that just at the moment.  My holiday is almost over and I have a number of projects on the go.  Maybe a little later on when I clear the decks a bit.

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-Jun-12, 02:20 PM Reply #508 »
Very interesting pwa.

The biases are pretty plain.  William Filgate (who was a cranky beggar) trained Fishhook.  First King was trained by James Wilson Jnrs father, etc.

The high regard for First King (and not Chester) is both interesting and embarassing, given that I left First King out of a 24 horse Colonial Hall of Fame (but only because I hadn't compiled his record and didn't have a picture of him at the time)  His record appears earlier in the thread, also at

http://horseforallseasons.blogspot.com.au/2014/06/first-king-1874.html


The Abercorn/Carbine split comes as no surprise.  Tom Hales rated Abercorn the best he had ridden and said he felt he was superior to Carbine as a stayer but not at a middle distance, also referencing Abercorn's ability to make long sustained runs.

The most telling admission I think is Hickenbotham's claiming Newhaven was the best 3YO he had trained, a view I am sympathetic to.

Bradfield's point about Mountain King and what he couldabeen if clean winded is also noted.

The lack of mention of Wakeful is surprising to me.  It could be gender bias.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2014-Jun-12, 09:10 PM Reply #509 »
The discussion on the Bernborough thread got me thinking about weights.
They used to carry massive weights back then and only recently have we seen them to start to rise again. It seems it wasn't rare for a horse to lump 68kg but in my lifetime 60kg seems to be the benchmark topweight, with the occasional exception


When & why did they drop the weights

Offline Authorized

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« 2014-Jun-13, 12:17 AM Reply #510 »
The discussion on the Bernborough thread got me thinking about weights.
They used to carry massive weights back then and only recently have we seen them to start to rise again. It seems it wasn't rare for a horse to lump 68kg but in my lifetime 60kg seems to be the benchmark topweight, with the occasional exception


When & why did they drop the weights

The bigger question is, when did they go from handicap racing to penalty racing ?

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-Jun-13, 12:56 AM Reply #511 »
That's a tricky one to answer.  I will leave 'why' alone and concentrate on when



The short answer is that the moderating of top weights began in the 1970's.  I'll use the Melbourne Cup to demonstrate.

This is a list of the record LOWEST original top weights in the Melbourne Cup since 1861

58.5KG
1867 - Smuggler
1877 - The Barb (13YO)
1878 - Fisrt King
1881 - Progress
1937 - Gay Promise, Pamelus
1971 - Baghdad Note
58.0KG
1979 - Ming Dynasty
57.5KG
1984 - Trissaro, Gurner's Lane
1986 - Bonecrusher
57.0KG
1990 - Better Loosen Up, Super Impose, Savage Toss

In the years from 1950 to 1971 the Average Top Weight was 62.5kg. Galilee was the last horse to receive a top weight of 10 stone or more.  The highest allocated weight since Galilee was Exceller (62.5kg in 1977 and then Swain 63kg in 1997)  10stone = 63.5kg. 


In the years since 1972 the Average Top Weight has been 59.5kg, and since 1990 59.4kg

At the same time the bottom weight has risen to an even greater extent.  The bottom weight carried in 1950 was 6.10 = 42.5kg and that was by a 4YO horse.  In 2013 Ruscello carried the effective limit of 50kg.  So over the period in which the average top weight has declined by 3kg the bottom weight has risen 7.5kg which means the spread has been reduced by more than 10kg.

In 1990 when the record lowest top weights of 57kg were given the lowest weighted runner carried 48.5kg but in 1973 two 4YO mares went around with 46kg


THE SHORT ANSWER :  Top weights began to decline from the 1970's and bottom weights began to rise at the same time

Can this be assumed for all other handicaps ?  Essentially yes bearing in mind the changes to the class structure in the late 1980s and the change to ratings based handicapping in the mid 2000s.



Offline tontonan

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« 2014-Jun-13, 01:00 AM Reply #512 »
The bigger question is, when did they go from handicap racing to penalty racing ?

I am not sure what you mean ? 

Offline pwa

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« 2014-Jun-14, 11:02 AM Reply #513 »
Talleyrand (1856)

Talleyrand was a chestnut gelding by Cossack out of the Waterloo mare, foaled 12/12/1856. He was not a champion but in the Sydney Autumn of 1862, having been purchased for £500 by John Tait, he was regarded as the best horse going round and confirmed that by winning the Geelong Champion’s Race in front of Barwon, Archer and Mormon in October.
 
The Randwick Grand Handicap was the predecessor to the Sydney Cup.

In Archer’s second cup, he apparently “went lame” in the running, there being a question about his soundness prior to the start. He ended up a butcher’s hack at Singleton delivering meat to “the denizens of the town”.

23 starts 12/2/1/7 (One contemporary record gives 24 starts but I haven’t found any others – 12 wins seems to be agreed on in contemporary accounts)

1860-1861

10 starts 6/1/1/2

3rd – 4/7/1860 Singleton Maiden Plate, 1½ miles, 1st Egremont, 2min 59sec
2nd – 8/8/1860 Maitland Maiden Plate, 1¾ miles, 1st Io
Unpl – 9/8/1860 Maitland Ladies’ Purse 1½ miles, 1st Constancy, Talleyrand started favourite
1st – 2/5/1861 Randwick Metropolitan Maiden Plate (£150), 1¾ miles, 2nd Inheritor, 2 lengths
1st – 4/5/1861 Randwick Australian Jockey Club Hcp (130sovs), 3miles, (6st 10lb), 2nd Veno, 6min 2sec, couple of lengths
Unpl – 4/5/1861 Randwick Forced Hcp, 1½ miles, 1st Peter possum, length
1st – 4/6/1861 Maitland Maiden Plate, 1¾ miles, 2nd Marquis, 3min 24sec, length
1st – 6/6/1861 Maitland Northumberland Jockey Club Hcp (100sovs), 3 miles, (9st), 2nd Koh-i-noor, 4 lengths, ½ length
1st – 3/7/1861 Singleton Maiden Plate £150, 1½ miles, 2nd Herodian, 3min 1sec
1st – 5/7/1861 Singleton Town Plate £100, 3 miles, (7st 11lb), 2nd Eugenie, 5min 5sec, length

1861-1862

7 starts 5/-/-/2

Unpl – 4/12/1861 Hobart Fourth Australian Champion Stakes (2000 sovs), 3 miles, 1st Mormon, 6 min 14 sec, 20 lengths (Talleyrand started 7/4 favourite)
1st – 5/12/1861 Hobart All Age Stakes (150sovs), 2 miles, 2nd Merryman, 4min 4sec, 2 lengths, “the race of the meet”
Unpl - 6/12/1861 Hobart Tasmanian Hcp, (200 sovs), 2 miles, (9st 12lb), 1st Mormon, 3min 57sec
1st – 6/12/1861 Hobart Tradesmen’s Purse (100sovs), 3 miles, 2nd Shelalagh, 6min 4sec
1st – 26/4/1862 Randwick Grand Hcp (£622 10s), twice around and a distance, (8st 10lb), 2nd Ben Bolt, 3rd Archer, 5min 11sec, 1½ lengths
1st – 1/5/1862 Randwick Jockey Club Hcp (100sovs), 2 miles, (9st 1lb), 2nd Ben Bolt, 3min 53sec, length, “best time ever made ... at Randwick and certainly a better race never witnessed in the colony”
1st – 2/5/1862 Randwick City Plate (75sovs), once round and a distance, 2nd Grasshopper, 2min 40sec, neck
(won £1350 for the season)

1862-1863

2 starts 1/-/-/1

1st – 1/10/1862 Geelong Champion Race (2000sovs), 3 miles, 2nd Barwon, 3rd Archer, 6min 2½ sec, 2 lengths
4th – 13/11/1862 Flemington Melbourne Cup (£830), 2 miles, (9st 12lb), 1st Archer, 3min 46sec, 6-8 lengths

1863-1864

2 starts -/1/-/-

2nd – 23/10/1863 Flemington Victoria Jockey Club Great Hcp, 1½ miles and a distance, (9st 4lb – top-weight) 1st Falcon, 3min 10sec, 1½ lengths
Unpl – 24/10/1863 Flemington Victoria Jockey Club Hcp, 2 miles, 1st Musidora, 3min 49sec

1865-1866

2 starts -/-/-/2

Unpl – 7/9/1865 Randwick Mayor’s Cup, 2 miles, 1st Volunteer, 3min 46sec
Unpl – 9/9/1865 Randwick Plate, 3 miles, 1st O.K., 5min 52sec
« Last Edit: 2014-Jul-07, 10:23 PM by pwa »

Offline Authorized

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« 2014-Jun-14, 11:09 AM Reply #514 »
How many "maidens" did Talleyrand win ?

Offline pwa

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« 2014-Jun-14, 11:15 AM Reply #515 »
I think in those days if you were a maiden at the time of entry for that particular event you could still race in that maiden even if you had won several races in the meantime!

Offline Authorized

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« 2014-Jun-14, 11:28 AM Reply #516 »
I am not sure what you mean ? 


Looking at the old time handicaps it seems to me the handicapper was handicapping on ability rather than achievement which is the way it should be.

Take the Queensland Derby as an example, Sonntag won a group 1 race and as such he will be penalised for that despite the fact the race was not much better than a BM80 race.

Vilanova was the highest rated horse in the race with 93, he earned that off the back of winning a "group 3" race.

Its not maturity that is stopping "DERBY" winners from going on with it, it is poor handicapping that is crucifying these horses going forward.

I will try to find Greg Carpenters weekly interview with Shane Anderson, In those interviews he generally handicaps horses properly.

Actually, we can go right back to the lowest classes of races, Maidens a winner of a maiden race nearly always gets BM62, Its a penalty not a handicap not all maidens are the same class, yet the winners always get 62, ( unless they went into the race as a major race placegetter )


 

Offline Authorized

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« 2014-Jun-14, 11:29 AM Reply #517 »
I think in those days if you were a maiden at the time of entry for that particular event you could still race in that maiden even if you had won several races in the meantime!

  emthup

New Zealand still has these types of races.

Offline The Jackal

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« 2014-Jun-14, 12:02 PM Reply #518 »
Looking at the old time handicaps it seems to me the handicapper was handicapping on ability rather than achievement which is the way it should be.

Take the Queensland Derby as an example, Sonntag won a group 1 race and as such he will be penalised for that despite the fact the race was not much better than a BM80 race.

Vilanova was the highest rated horse in the race with 93, he earned that off the back of winning a "group 3" race.

Its not maturity that is stopping "DERBY" winners from going on with it, it is poor handicapping that is crucifying these horses going forward.

I will try to find Greg Carpenters weekly interview with Shane Anderson, In those interviews he generally handicaps horses properly.

Actually, we can go right back to the lowest classes of races, Maidens a winner of a maiden race nearly always gets BM62, Its a penalty not a handicap not all maidens are the same class, yet the winners always get 62, ( unless they went into the race as a major race placegetter )


 

I really don't understand the ethos of this type of thinking.

Offline Authorized

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« 2014-Jun-14, 12:06 PM Reply #519 »
I really don't understand the ethos of this type of thinking.

The idea of handicapping is to even up the field isn't it ?

Offline tontonan

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« 2014-Jun-14, 03:15 PM Reply #520 »
Thanks for Talleyrand.  There is no doubt about John Tait.  He knew when to hold them and he knew when to fold them but most of all he knew when to buy them.  He has an incredible record of buying horses and winning bigger races than they had ever won before.  He also had a great affection for the blood of Sir Hercules (Cossack, Zoe, The Barb, Talleyrand among others - and his first stakes winner Whalebone was Sir Herc's half brother.)  And in these very early days he was prepared to travel his horses for good races setting a precedent that really drove the development of racing in the colonies. 







While I am preparing a long winded reply to the handicapping question - and a very interesting question it is - I will post the very unfinished record of Reading.  I will return to fill in the blanks but I thought it may be of interest as it is....








READING
1936 bay horse
Macronigram GB - Gravure
Bred by Albert Thompson
Sold for 400 guineas to Gordon Luscombe
Trained by Fred Cush

Australia :  41 STARTS 10 WINS 10 SECONDS 8 THIRDS
USA :  18 STARTS 3 WINS 1 SECOND 4 THIRDS

CAREER RECORD

bred at Bylong by Albert Thompson sold for 400 guineas to Gordon Luscombe raced in partnership with PJ Manasu

AT TWO YEARS 1938-39

   3rd       Rosehill     RRC Park Juvenile (1st Div)    4¾f    8.5             
3-Dec    WON    10    Canterbury    CPRC 2YO Handicap (2nd Div)    5f    8.7    4/11*    ¾ len    Prospector 8.1    1.03.0
17-Dec    WON    11    Rosehill     RRC Nursery Hcp    4¾f    8.11    5/2*    3 lens    Bravasirua 8.0    0.56.0
26-Dec    3rd    7    Randwick    AJC December Sks    5f    8.5    33/1    2 lens    Esperanto 8.10    1.01.7
19-Mar    WON    14    Rosehill     RRC Nursery Hcp    4¾f    8.12    7/2*    1¼ lens    Tobasco 8.6    0.57.0*
1-Apr    10th    17    Warwick Farm    AJC Fairfield Hcp    6f    8.7    7-1       The Kaiser 6.7    1.13.½
8-Apr    WON       Randwick    AJC Sires Produce    7f    8.1    14/1    ½ length    High Caste 8.10    1.25¼
   2nd       Randwick    AJC Champagne Sks    6f    9.6       ½ neck    High Caste 9.6    1.12.½

Admitted to a Vet Hospital with laryngitis and a temperature of 105
                              
AT THREE YEARS 1939-40

   Unpl       Warwick Farm    AJC Hobartville    7f    8.10          High Caste 8.10    1.26.0
   Unpl       Randwick    Tatt's Chelmsford    9f             Defaulter    1.54.0
   2nd       Rosehill    RRC Rosehill Guineas    9f    8.5       ½ head    High Caste 8.5    1.50¾
   2nd       Rosehill    HawksRC Clarendon Sks    9f          2½ lens    Beau Vite    1.51.0
   WON       Randwick    AJC Derby    12f    8.10       ½ neck    High Caste 8.10    2.34.0
   2nd       Caulfield    VATC Caulfield Guineas    8f    8.5       ¾ len    High caste 8.5    1.38½
   3rd       Caulfield    VATC Caulfield Sks    9f    7.13       3¾ len    High Caste 7.13    1.54¾
   3rd       Moonee Valley    MVRC WS Cox Plate    9½f             Mosaic    1.56½
   WON       Flemington    VRC Victoria Derby    12f    8.10       1¼ len    High Caste 8.10    2.33.0
   14th       Flemington    VRC Melbourne Cup    16f             Rivette 7.9    
   2nd       Caulfield    VATC St George Stakes    9f          head    Ajax    1.51.0
   6th       Caulfield    VATC Futurity Stakes    7f             Ajax    1.24.0
   5th       Flemington    VRC Brunswick Sks                   
   WON       Flemington    VRC St Leger    14f    8.10       2½ lens    High Caste 8.10    2.56¾
   WON       Warwick farm    Chipping Norton Plate    10f    8.6          Mosaic 9.0    2.03.5
   WON       Randwick    AJC St Leger    14f    8.10          Dashing Cavileer    3.00.0*
   last    3    Randwick    AJC Cumberland Stks                   
                              
AT FOUR YEARS 1940-41

   2nd       Warwick farm    AJC Warwick Sks    7f    9       ½  len    Beaulivre    1.24½
   2nd       Canterbury    CPRC Canterbury Sks    6f    9       ½ head    Beaulivre    1.11¼
   Last    4    Randwick    AJC Craven Plate    10f    9          Beau Vite     2.02¼
   2nd       Randwick    AJC Metropolitan Hcp    13f          2 lens    Beau Vite    2.42.0**
   19th       Caulfield    VATC Caulfield Cup    12f             Beaulivre    2.29.0
   Last       Flemington    VRC Linlithgow Sks    8f    9          High Caste    1.37.0
   5th       Williamstown    WRCV Williamstown Cup    12f             Remarc    2.29.0
   Unpl       Caulfield    VATC Hawksburn Hcp    6f                
   last       Rosehill    STC Rawson Stakes    9f    9.0          Beau Vite    1.52½
   10th       Randwick    AJC Doncaster    8f             Mildura    1.35¼

AT FIVE YEARS 1941-42

Aug-41    3rd        Roseberry    Roseberry Flying    6f                
6-Sep    WON       Canterbury    CPRC Canterbury Sks    6f    9.3       ½ len    High Caste    1.12.0
   Unpl       Randwick    Tatt's Tramway Hcp    7f             Evergreen 7.13    1.23.5
   3rd        Rosehill    RRC Hill Sks    9f    9.4       3½ len    High caste    1.45.0
   2nd       Randwick    AJC Craven Plate    10f          neck    Beau Vite     2.01.¾**

Oct : Sold 2000 guineas S.Aries Louis B Mayer

   2nd       Caulfield    VATC Caulfield Cup    12f             Velocity    2.29½




Guaranteed to be almost right ! (but I wouldn't be surprised if I have missed a start or two).

1936 was a great year for 3YO's.  Beau Vite, High Caste and Beaulivre, all from NZ, were his rivals.  He actually had a 8-7 head to head with Beau Vite and 11-12 with High Caste.

Reading was the second last horse to 'clean sweep' the 3YO classics - both Derbies, both St Legers  (off the top of my head- Navigator, Trident, Abundance, Poseidon, Mountain King, Prince Foote, Phar Lap and Tulloch were the others)

Offline The Jackal

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« 2014-Jun-14, 05:56 PM Reply #521 »
The idea of handicapping is to even up the field isn't it ?

On previous performance, not on unrealised potential.

Offline Authorized

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« 2014-Jun-14, 06:06 PM Reply #522 »
On previous performance, not on unrealised potential.

And currently it is not done on either.

Offline pwa

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« 2014-Jun-14, 07:34 PM Reply #523 »
Fishhook 1863 by Fisherman out of Marchioness

On his untimely death in 1871 he was universally acknowledged as “the best horse ever foaled in Victoria”. Given the poisoning and nobbling of other horses owned by C. B. Fisher at the time, it was believed by contemporaries and (almost) certain that he met with “foul play” soon after his return from Randwick in 1867 which forced his dramatic scratching from the New Year’s Day meeting of 1868 and his premature end. His clashes with his exact contemporary, The Barb, were the stuff of legend. Fishhook was the better two year-old, The Barb superior early in his three year-old season winning the Melbourne Cup and the Champion Stakes but Fishhook was supreme as an autumn three year-old.

16 starts, 10/2/1/3

1865-1866

6 starts 4/1/-/1

Disq –2/11/1865 Flemington Ascot Vale Stakes for Colts (100sovs), 5 furlongs, 1st Seagull, Fishhook “won easily” but ran inside a post
1st – 1/1/1866 Flemington Essendon Stakes (100sovs), 1 mile, 2nd Siren, C. B. Fisher had declared Fishhook to win and he did “without the slightest difficulty”, 1min 52sec
1st – 9/3/1866 Flemington Stakes (100sovs), ¾ mile, 2nd First Flight, 1min 23sec, length
1st – 28/4/1866 Randwick Australian Jockey Club Two Year-Old Stakes (£295), ¾ mile, 2nd Budelight, 3rd The Barb, 1min 22½ sec, neck, 3 lengths
1st – 3/5/1866 Randwick Champagne Stakes, 2nd Budelight, 1min 37sec, neck
2nd – 5/5/1866 Randwick Nursery Handicap, ¾ mile, (8st 12lb), 1st The Barb (7st 12lb), 1min 19sec, 2 lengths

1866-1867

9 starts 6/1/1/1

3rd –1/9/1866 Randwick (Australian) Derby Stakes, 1½ miles, 1st The Barb, 2nd Bylong, 2min 48sec, 3 lengths, length
2nd –7/9/1866 Randwick (Spring) Bruie Stakes, 1 mile, 1st The Barb, 1min 50sec, 3-4 lengths
Unpl – 1/1/1867 Flemington Twelfth Champion Race (1000sovs), 3 miles, 1st The Barb, 2nd Volunteer, 5min 38sec, Fishhook bolted opposite the stand and ran out towards the river
1st – 26/2/1867 Launceston Champion Cup, 3 miles, (7st 1lb), 2nd Volunteer (9st 5lb), 5min 45sec, 1½ lengths
1st – 27/2/1867 Launceston The (St) Leger, 1½ miles, 2nd Nimblefoot, 2min 50sec, ½ length
1st – 17/3/1867 Flemington V.R.C. St. Leger, 1¾ miles and 132 yards, 2nd Budelight, 3min 29sec, 2 lengths in a canter
1st – 4/9/1867 Randwick Australian St. Leger, 1¾ miles, 2nd Blair Athol, 3rd Bylong, unpl. The Barb, 3min 18sec, “The Barb was licked after running half-a-mile and Fishhook won as he liked”. The Barb was flattened by this race and didn’t reappear until the New Year
1st – 9/5/1867 Randwick  Sydney Gold Cup, 2 miles, 2nd Rose of Australia, 3rd Tim Whiffler, 3min 41½ sec, 4 lengths
1st – 11/5/1867, Randwick Queen's Plate, 3 miles, 2nd Yattendon, 6min, won “in a canter” by 6 lengths

1867-1868

1 start, -/-/-/1

Unpl – 30/4/1868 Randwick Sydney Gold Cup, 2 miles, (9st 5lb), 1st The Barb (8st 12lb), 3min 40sec, Fishhook “was pulled up at the rocks dead lame” Fishhook carried 7lbs over w.f.a.


Three year-old Winnings:

The season after The Barb and Fishhook, Fireworks started sixteen times as a three-year-old and won twelve races worth £4,000. Fishhook, as a three-year-old, started nine times and won six races, worth £2,875 and The Barb at the same age started eight times and won five races including the Melbourne Cup and a financially much more valuable Champion Stakes, £3,265. Flying Buck also when a three-year-old started eleven times, winning nine races, besides coming in first for the Great Metropolitan which was declared null and void. He won £3,577. He was another horse “got to” and never fulfilled his three year-old potential

Offline pwa

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« 2014-Jun-14, 07:43 PM Reply #524 »
Thanks for posting Reading.

That 1936 list would have been as good a crop of Australasian horses as ever foaled in a season. Ajax is the only horse in popular memory from that era but it is a great era, not only for forgotten near-champions like Reading, but particularly for those real champion NZers such as Defaulter and Kindergarten.

Apparently Reading was pronounced Reading, as in reading a book, rather than Redding like the English city.


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