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Steve M

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O.P. « 2011-Jul-03, 01:29 PM »
I was thinking about this - trying to work out where victory of SYT sits amongst our overseas winners. Thoughts??

Firstly what's criteria - well as long as you've raced in Australia I reckon that entitles you to think we can still claim win our. So it rules out likes of Silent Witness/Rocket Man as they never raced in Aust.

Straight off the top of my head - I think of Better Loosen Up in Japan. Elvstroem in Dubai. Sunline in HK. Choisir UK and those that followed. St Steven & Karasi in Nakayama Grand Jump.





Offline worldisavampire

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« 2011-Jul-03, 02:38 PM Reply #1 »
Great thread Master Steve.

There is probably a distinction between horses that have gone overseas to win a race or races and those that go OS to be based there. Some horses have raced here early in their careers and then moved OS and been renamed. This happens regularly in Hong Kong for example.

Phar Lap probably put in our best OS performance because of what he went through.

In modern times it is hard to go past Better Loosen Up. The Japan Cup was definitely the main OS race that Australians targeted at that time.

Sunline beating Fairy King Prawn is right up there.

Using the other criteria we have a dead heat for me between SYT and then this great horse

Crisp was a champion steeplechase horse. He was a bay thoroughbred gelding that was foaled in 1963 in Australia. In his native country, he won many important jumping races, particularly two-milers, including the Hiskens Steeplechase in 1969 and 1970. So well did he jump, he was nicknamed "The Black Kangaroo". However, Crisp is probably best remembered for his epic contest with Red Rum in the 1973 Grand National in England.

1973 Grand National

Before the off, Crisp was 9/1 joint-favourite with Red Rum to win the National.[2] However, by the time the runners had reached The Chair, Crisp, who was carrying the top weight of 12 stone, had already built up a significant lead and appeared unstoppable.[3] For much of the initial stages, Crisp's closest challenger was Bill Shoemark on Grey Sombrero, but that horse fell (fatally) at The Chair, gifting Crisp an even greater lead which had grown to 20 lengths by the end of the first circuit.

Jockey Pitman later recalled that at the Becher's Brook fence on the second circuit, fallen jockey David Nicholson shouted at him, "Richard, you're 33 lengths clear, kick on and you'll win!" At the same time, he heard the Tannoy commentator Michael O'Hehir declare, "And Red Rum is coming out of the pack, Brian Fletcher is kicking him hard!"[1]
At the 30th and final fence, Crisp was still 15 lengths ahead of Red Rum, who was jockeyed by Fletcher and given 10 stone, 5lb by the handicapper. However, Crisp was beginning to tire badly on the 494-yard run-in, carrying 23lb more than his nearest rival. Red Rum made up considerable ground, and two strides from the finishing post he pipped Crisp by a mere three-quarters of a length to win his first of three Grand National titles.[3]
Even in defeat, Crisp had bettered the Grand National completion time by a full 20 seconds, a record that had stood for the 40 previous years.[1]
Despite Red Rum's unprecedented record in Grand Nationals and securing his place in British sporting history, the 1973 race is as fondly remembered for Crisp's brave run-in defeat as it was for Red Rum's narrow victory. Veteran commentator Jim McGrath called the battle between Red Rum and Crisp among the highlights of all Grand Nationals, and said that Crisp was the unluckiest horse in the race's history.[5]
After the National

Crisp ran only once more after his second-place effort in the 1973 National, at Doncaster the following season. One by one, the other runners were withdrawn, until the race turned into a match, off level weights, between Crisp and Red Rum. Crisp won by 10 lengths, but injured himself in doing so, and was retired.[1]
Pitman, his jockey, said in a 2003 interview that following his retirement from racing, Crisp then hunted for the next eight seasons. He died out hunting, and was buried at the entrance of his then-owner's estate. A cherry tree was planted over the grave, which flowers at Grand National time.[1]

Online sobig

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« 2011-Jul-03, 03:31 PM Reply #2 »
If you include Sunline as "one of ours", which I have no problem with, then you must include Horlicks' Japan Cup as well.

Offline Authorized

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« 2011-Jul-03, 03:37 PM Reply #3 »
If you include Sunline as "one of ours", which I have no problem with, then you must include Horlicks' Japan Cup as well.

In world record time for 2400m as well if memory serves correct.

What a great mare she was.

Offline The Jackal

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« 2011-Jul-03, 04:56 PM Reply #4 »
Best performance by a New Zealand Broodmare.
1982 NZ Oaks winner Maurita

Dam of 1994 Japan Cup winner Marvelous Crown
8th in the same race was US horse Grand Flotilla who had won the Hollywood Gold Cup at his previous start.
He was also out of the same dam.

Don't think 2 horses from the same dam have ever started in the same renewal of the worlds toughest 2400 metre race.

Offline Red Anchor

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« 2011-Jul-03, 08:31 PM Reply #5 »
Balmerino, 3rd in 1976 renewal of the Arc.

Strawberry Road, 2nd to the great All Along in the Breeders Cup Turf ... 1985 (?)


Offline The Jackal

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« 2011-Jul-03, 10:18 PM Reply #6 »
Strawberry Road was 2nd to Pebbles in what is now the Breeders Cup Turf. He did have the very best run in that race and had every possible chance.

Think he ran 4th the year previous when All Along won it.


Offline Shogun Lodge

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« 2011-Jul-03, 10:21 PM Reply #7 »
Cmon its gotta be Miss Andretti's Ascot Kings Stand win.
Smashed old and new Ascot track record.

Online sobig

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« 2011-Jul-03, 11:05 PM Reply #8 »
Balmerino, 3rd in 1976 renewal of the Arc.

Strawberry Road, 2nd to the great All Along in the Breeders Cup Turf ... 1985 (?)



Balmerino actually ran second in the Arc to Alleged.

Offline The Jackal

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« 2011-Jul-03, 11:16 PM Reply #9 »
That's correct, he was also 2nd in the Eclipse.
His highest timeform rating was 133, but his biggest win in Europe was at Group 1 level in Italy.
He did compete very well against the world's  best which wasn't  a bad effort considering he wasn't the best horse of his generation racing in Australasia at the time.

Offline Base

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« 2011-Jul-04, 06:27 AM Reply #10 »
Great read Worldisavampire.

Crisp's performance in the Grand National to carry so much weight, so far, in so quick a time and only be beaten in the last 10 metres by a horse that went on to win 3 Grand Nationals was incredible.



It is both uplifting and heartbreaking to watch.
« Last Edit: 2011-Jul-04, 12:01 PM by Authorized »

Offline Red Anchor

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« 2011-Jul-04, 07:18 PM Reply #11 »
Strawberry Road was 2nd to Pebbles in what is now the Breeders Cup Turf. He did have the very best run in that race and had every possible chance.

Think he ran 4th the year previous when All Along won it.



The old memory's not what it used to be ...  :embarrassed:

Jim Pike

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« 2011-Jul-05, 12:00 AM Reply #12 »
You would think Phar Lap's win in the Agua Caliente handicap would have to be way in front of anything else wouldn't it? Pretty sure it was the worlds richest race at the time, he won easy and was rated by far the best in the world at the time and even the Yanks rated him at least the equal of Man O'War, read where a great american handicapper at the time of Secretariat rated Phar Lap, Secretariat and Man O'War as the 3 Greatest horses he had seen but rated Phar Lap as better than the other 2! To get a Yank to admit that says Volumes for Phar Lap

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2011-Jul-05, 12:30 AM Reply #13 »
You would think Phar Lap's win in the Agua Caliente handicap would have to be way in front of anything else wouldn't it? Pretty sure it was the worlds richest race at the time, he won easy and was rated by far the best in the world at the time and even the Yanks rated him at least the equal of Man O'War, read where a great american handicapper at the time of Secretariat rated Phar Lap, Secretariat and Man O'War as the 3 Greatest horses he had seen but rated Phar Lap as better than the other 2! To get a Yank to admit that says Volumes for Phar Lap

Many rate Man O' War the greatest of all time Jim (me included), and it puts Phar Lap's record into a modern perspective when he is compared to a horse like MOW

Age Fin Date Track Race Distance Jockey Weight Winner/2nd Betting Runners Time
2yo 1st 06-Jun-19 Belmont 2yo Maiden Purse 5f J Loftus 115lb Retrieve (112) 3-5f 7 ran 0.59.00F
2yo 1st 09-Jun-19 Belmont Keene Memorial Stks 5.5f J Loftus 115lb On Watch (115) 7-10f 6 ran 1.05.30S
2yo 1st 21-Jun-19 Jamaica NY Youthful Stks 5.5f J Loftus 120lb On Watch (108) 7-10f 4 ran 1.06.30G
2yo 1st 23-Jun-19 Aqueduct Hudson Stks 5f J Loftus 130lb Violet Tip (109) 1-10f 5 ran 1.01.30F
2yo 1st 05-Jul-19 Aqueduct Tremont Stks 6f J Loftus 130lb Ralco (115) 1-10f 3 ran 1.13.00F
2yo 1st 02-Aug-19 Saratoga US Hotel Stks 6f J Loftus 130lb Upset (115) 9-10f 10 ran 1.12.20F
2yo 2nd 13-Aug-19 Saratoga Sanford Stks 6f J Loftus 130lb Upset (115) 11-20f 7 ran 1.11.10F
2yo 1st 23-Aug-19 Saratoga Grand Union Hotel Stks 6f J Loftus 130lb Upset (125) 11-20f 10 ran 1.12.00F
2yo 1st 30-Aug-19 Saratoga Hopeful Stks 6f J Loftus 130lb Cleopatra (112) 9-20f 8 ran 1.13.00S
2yo 1st 13-Sep-19 Belmont Futurity Stks 6f J Loftus 127lb John P Grier (117) 7-10f 10 ran 1.11.30F
3yo 1st 18-May-20 Pimlico Preakness Stks 1 1/8m C Kummer 126lb Upset (122) 8-10f 9 ran 1.51.30F
3yo 1st 29-May-20 Belmont Withers Stks 1m C Kummer 118lb Wildair (114) 1-7f 3 ran 1.35.40F TR AR
3yo 1st 12-Jun-20 Belmont Belmont Stks 1 3/8m C Kummer 126lb Donnacona (126) 1-25f 2 ran 2.14.10F TR AR
3yo 1st 22-Jun-20 Jamaica NY Stuyvesant Hcp 1 m C Kummer 135lb Yellow Hand (103) 1-100f 2 ran 1.41.30G
3yo 1st 10-Jul-20 Aqueduct Dwyer Stks 1 1/8m C Kummer 126lb John P Grier (108) 1-5f 2 ran 1.49.10F TR AR
3yo 1st 07-Aug-20 Saratoga Miller Stks 1 3/16m E Sande 131lb Donnacona (119) 1-30f 3 ran 1.56.30F TR AR
3yo 1st 21-Aug-20 Saratoga Travers Stks 1 1/4m E Sande 129lb Upset (123) 2-9f 3 ran 2.01.40F ETR
3yo 1st 04-Sep-20 Belmont Lawrence Realization 1 5/8m C Kummer 126lb Hoodwink (126) 1-100f 2 ran 2.04.40F TR AR
3yo 1st 11-Sep-20 Belmont Jockey Club Stks 1 1/2m C Kummer 118lb Damask (118) 1-100f 2 ran 2.28.40F TR AR
3yo 1st 18-Sep-20 Havre de Grace Potomac Hcp 1 1/16m C Kummer 138lb Wildair (108) 15-100f 4 ran 1.44.40F
3yo 1st 12-Oct-20 Kenilworth Kenilworth Gold Cup 1 1/4m C Kummer 120lb Sir Barton (126) 5-100f 2 ran 2.03.00F TR AR


MOW's only defeat came at the hands of his great rival Upset, and some say that the term "upset result" refers back to that race.

Adding to the argument for Phar Lap was his contemporary domestic peers - champions like Peter Pan, Hall Mark, Amounis, Rogilla, Limerick, Heroic and Chatham.  The late 20's to the mid 30's was a golden era of champions with Phar Lap at the top.

What joy it must have been for a nation suffering the depression when Phar Lap won the Agua Caliente. What devastation when he died!

Another Aussie international performer that deserves mention is Sailor's Guide. He had 3 runs internationally winning two and running 2nd in his last start. He beat Tudor Era in the 1958 Washington D.C. International Stakes (the horse who beat him at his last start). Tudor Era was a contemporary of a real international champion in Round Table.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?h=round+table&query_type=stakes&search_bar=stakes&field=all

Offline worldisavampire

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« 2011-Jul-05, 03:44 AM Reply #14 »
Am I right in saying that half of Wan O War's wins were against 1 and 2 opponents?

Jim Pike

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« 2011-Jul-05, 10:01 PM Reply #15 »
PP when you rate horses by looking at their overall record on paper you are being misled as to their true ability, you have to look at their best runs to assess just how good they are, in the 30's in Australia a stayer like Phar Lap probably wasn't trying to win his early races and they really should be deleted from the equation, PL was unplaced 9 times in his career but 8 of them were in his first 9 starts and the other was in his 3rd Melbourne cup when carrying the Grandstand,   Man O'War was a different kettle of fish( I think he was a colt) he ran against small fields and was set to win at every start, Australia made it Hard for Champions while as a rule other Countries made it a gift for them and it made it easy for overseas horses to have a better record "on paper"
Both were great horses, I only mentioned Man O'War because of a great quote from a great american Handicapper(punter) I just can't remember his name, he said he had seen them all, Man O'War, Phar Lap and Secretariat and was in no doubt that Phar Lap was the greatest of them all, not that that has any relevance to this question as to who was the best win overseas of an Australian horse,

I can't see how any other Australian winner overseas coud come close to what Phar Lap did and he did it at his first start on Dirt as well, As I said it is a "no brainer"

not sure if this will work but the film of the Agua Caliente Handicap is here if you would like to watch it

http://museumvictoria.com.au/pharlap/video/AguaCaliente.wmv

Sailors Guide won the Washinton International but from memory I think it was on protest??

Offline seal

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« 2011-Jul-05, 10:39 PM Reply #16 »
always so much talk about choisir , the start of our sprinting success, but tht what falvelon did in Honkers was fantastic at the time (maybe was the qld media when living in bris), pity they were only gp2's at the time

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2011-Jul-06, 02:44 AM Reply #17 »
Am I right in saying that half of Wan O War's wins were against 1 and 2 opponents?

The reason Man O' War ran against small fields was because he scared the opposition off.

Have a look at the Track records and All American records he broke. He was a superior beast.

It is not just my opinion he was the best of all time - many think that.

Offline firezuki

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« 2011-Jul-06, 03:21 AM Reply #18 »
Strawberry Road was 2nd to Pebbles in what is now the Breeders Cup Turf. He did have the very best run in that race and had every possible chance.

Think he ran 4th the year previous when All Along won it.



I'd have to disagree Jack.  Whilst SR did have a good run, he ran up on the pace.  Pebbles got a dream split on the corner and must have
saved four lengths.  She beat him by about half a length from memory.  SR got beaten by a much better ride - he should have won. 

Regarding MOW and Phar Lap and their respective records, you cannot compare the two head-to-head.  As Jim Pike says, many of Phar Lap's
runs were simply conditioning efforts.  Also both MOW and Secretariat never raced against anything but their own age group.  I'd have loved
to have seen what Phar Lap may have done to them at four in 1930 rather than in '32 when he actually went. 
I'd also have loved to have seen what Tulloch may have done to them had he not got sick and travelled. 
So You Think's Eclipse will probably grow in stature as time goes by.  Or forgotten if he wins the Arc.  But not by me. 

Jim Pike

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« 2011-Jul-06, 03:47 AM Reply #19 »
PP you are not listening, it is not about Man O'War, I was quoting a great american handicapper in an attempt to put Phar Lap's achievement in perspective, whether he was better than Man O'War or not is not the point, the fact is he was compared favourably  with Man O'War and Secretariat was the point, I don't have an opinion on it either way but I am sure both would beat the likes of Choisir/Strawberry Road etc and would be surprised if any one would want to argue with that

The question is rating the Australian overseas Victories and in my mind Phar Lap victory stands alone, head and Shoulders above all the rest of our Aussie Victories and always will,

Another point is he was trained by a very ordinary trainer of the times, Telfords other victories were very scarce, I think he only had the one start for Tommy Woodcock and he won the Agua Caliente, the worlds richest race and if you watch the videa you will see that he was interfered with at the start, travelled wide throughout the race, made his run a long way from homeright around the field then when America's best(Reveille Boy) ranged up on the turn Phar Lap treated him with Contempt and raced away(making 2 runs in the race)
I wonder how good Phar Lap would have been if trained by a Bart Cummings/Tommy Smith/ Tom Payton/Bayley Payton etc or even if Tommy Woodcock had trained him all through??

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« 2011-Jul-06, 08:24 AM Reply #20 »

I believe Sailor's Guide was invited to go overseas because Tobin Bronze wasn't available.

Tobin Bronze was a much superior horse.

Maybe the connections of Tobin Bronze knew he wouldn't be suited by dirt tracks as was proved when he later went to USA.

Tobin Bronze Sire    Arctic Explorer Grandsire    Arctic Prince Dam    Amarco Damsire    Masthead
Sex    Stallion Foaled    1962 Country    Australia Colour    Chestnut Breeder    W. Brown & Sons Pty. Ltd.
Owner    1) Alfred, Donald C. & Walter E. Brown 2) William Breliant & Irving Litz Trainer    1) Graham H. Heagney 2) Charles E. Whittingham (USA)

Record    60: 28-10-6 Earnings    AŁ89,586

MAJOR WINS

Bloodhorse Breeders' Stakes (1965)
Victoria Derby (1965)
Blamey Stakes (1966)
Craiglee Stakes (1966)
J J Liston Stakes (1966)
Underwood Stakes (1966)
Turnbull Stakes (1966)
Cox Plate (1966, 1967)
Turnbull Stakes (1966)
L.K.S. MacKinnon Stakes (1966)
Orr Stakes (1967)
St George Stakes (1967)
All Aged Stakes (1967)
Doncaster Handicap (1967)
Toorak Handicap (1967)
Caulfield Cup (1967)
Azucar Purse (1968)

Honours   Australian Racing Hall of Fame (2003)

Jim Pike

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« 2011-Jul-06, 10:28 AM Reply #21 »
Sailor's guide was 10 years before Tobin Bronze, SG went over in the late 50's and TB went over after winning the Cox Plate for the second time in 1967, TB was a Certainty beaten behind 2 of America's best, from memory and don't hold me to it but I think it was Fort Marcy and Damascus

Jim Pike

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« 2011-Jul-06, 10:33 AM Reply #22 »
They called on Graeme Heagney to go over to America too see if he could get TB back to his best and in doing so he gave up training Rain Lover that is how good Heagney considered Tobin Bronze, look at the field he beat when winning his Cox Plate?? 3 or 4 champions in there, he would have won 5 or 6 Cox Plates if he was going around today but alas I have again wandered off the point of this thread again

Offline Authorized

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« 2011-Jul-06, 10:40 AM Reply #23 »
The question is rating the Australian overseas Victories and in my mind Phar Lap victory stands alone, head and Shoulders above all the rest of our Aussie Victories and always will,

Why is that ?

Jim Pike

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« 2011-Jul-06, 11:55 AM Reply #24 »
Well Matt it has been 80 years and still nothing has come close, can't see it happening in the foreseeable future can you? have you watched the film of his win in the big Race? what a horse!! the horses he beat were the best in America at the time racing in there own backyard on dirt and he still treated them with contempt


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