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Offline firezuki

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« 2011-Jul-06, 01:21 PM Reply #25 »
Sailor's guide was 10 years before Tobin Bronze, SG went over in the late 50's and TB went over after winning the Cox Plate for the second time in 1967, TB was a Certainty beaten behind 2 of America's best, from memory and don't hold me to it but I think it was Fort Marcy and Damascus

A certainty beaten?  You might want to watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q5XvtxeR5E

And the horse was the great Dr Fager.

Offline firezuki

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« 2011-Jul-06, 01:30 PM Reply #26 »
PP you are not listening, it is not about Man O'War, I was quoting a great american handicapper in an attempt to put Phar Lap's achievement in perspective, whether he was better than Man O'War or not is not the point, the fact is he was compared favourably  with Man O'War and Secretariat was the point, I don't have an opinion on it either way but I am sure both would beat the likes of Choisir/Strawberry Road etc and would be surprised if any one would want to argue with that


Another point is he was trained by a very ordinary trainer of the times, Telfords other victories were very scarce, I think he only had the one start for Tommy Woodcock and he won the Agua Caliente, the worlds richest race and if you watch the videa you will see that he was interfered with at the start, travelled wide throughout the race, made his run a long way from homeright around the field then when America's best(Reveille Boy) ranged up on the turn Phar Lap treated him with Contempt and raced away(making 2 runs in the race)

The guy you are referring to was Charlie Whittingham.  He said that he saw MOW and Phar Lap race and he thought Phar Lap was better.
Reveille Boy was not the best horse in America at the time.  His name was Equipoise. 
« Last Edit: 2011-Jul-06, 02:10 PM by firezuki »

Offline Authorized

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« 2011-Jul-06, 01:44 PM Reply #27 »
A certainty beaten?  You might want to watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q5XvtxeR5E

And the horse was the great Dr Fager.

Thanks for that firezuki.

Jim Pike

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« 2011-Jul-06, 01:46 PM Reply #28 »
Hate to disagree with you but I think you have the wrong race, I am sure Tobin's first American start was in the 1967 Washington International and am also pretty sure the winner was Fort Marcy, it is from memory so I will stand to be corrected if I am wrong, it was either Damascus or Dr Fager that ran second, I can't remember everything :)

Offline manikato1

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« 2011-Jul-06, 02:09 PM Reply #29 »
Well Matt it has been 80 years and still nothing has come close, can't see it happening in the foreseeable future can you? have you watched the film of his win in the big Race? what a horse!! the horses he beat were the best in America at the time racing in there own backyard on dirt and he still treated them with contempt

I am pretty sure I read somewhere that they only got West Coast horses, and the best horses at the time were considered the East Coast horses.  Can't remember where I read that though, think it was in a US racing paper discussing the most overrated horses of all time.

Before anybody knocks me, I think it was more a critical look at lot of highly rated horses, MOW was at number 1.

Jim Pike

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« 2011-Jul-06, 02:38 PM Reply #30 »
Wasn't it Charlie Wittingham who took over the training of Tobin Bronze?? That name rings a bell as a trainer of an Australian horse

Obviously you think Manikato was pretty good, and you are inferring that Phar Lap was over rated in some sections?  of Course the Yanks will say they had a better one back home, the Yanks are not the world's best losers are they? but it was the richest race in the world at the time and Phar Lap came from down under but it was too far to go for their best horse to travel? pull the other one  :lol:   :lol:

You could always say that about any race, there is always horses that don't run, how can you say Black Caviar is the best horse in the world when she hasn't beaten Frankel?? or Vice Versa you can only beat what is put in front of you and it was the worlds best race at the time and Phar Lap treated them with contempt and he did it the hard way, they had everything stacked in their favour, no other Aussie horse has even come close to doing what Phar Lap did overseas,

given that their best horse didn't run show me a quote from any American who thought it would have got close to The Red Terror if it did run?

Offline Base

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« 2011-Jul-06, 04:27 PM Reply #31 »
Jim Pike

My memory is that, as good as he was, Sailor's Guide wasn't the first horse invited to go to USA to race in the 1958 International.

Probably, Tulloch was the first invited.  Correct me if I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: 2011-Jul-06, 04:29 PM by Base »

Offline manikato1

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« 2011-Jul-06, 04:41 PM Reply #32 »
Wasn't it Charlie Wittingham who took over the training of Tobin Bronze?? That name rings a bell as a trainer of an Australian horse

Obviously you think Manikato was pretty good, and you are inferring that Phar Lap was over rated in some sections?  of Course the Yanks will say they had a better one back home, the Yanks are not the world's best losers are they? but it was the richest race in the world at the time and Phar Lap came from down under but it was too far to go for their best horse to travel? pull the other one   :lol:     :lol:  

You could always say that about any race, there is always horses that don't run, how can you say Black Caviar is the best horse in the world when she hasn't beaten Frankel?? or Vice Versa you can only beat what is put in front of you and it was the worlds best race at the time and Phar Lap treated them with contempt and he did it the hard way, they had everything stacked in their favour, no other Aussie horse has even come close to doing what Phar Lap did overseas,

given that their best horse didn't run show me a quote from any American who thought it would have got close to The Red Terror if it did run?

I can't do that, but here is an article, note the quote

He said the two best American horses of the day, Twenty Grand and Mate, were not entered because it was unusual then for horses to travel from one coast to the other to race, but that the field included a Preakness Stakes winner, Dr Freeland, who was carrying three kilograms less than Phar Lap.



http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/18/1058035200877.html

Offline Authorized

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« 2011-Jul-06, 05:02 PM Reply #33 »
"She's talking crap," said Armstrong. "Everyone who's seen footage of Phar Lap's win in the US is amazed. He missed the start. He ran five or six wide the whole way. Gangsters were going to get him or something; (handler) Tommy Woodcock was a bit paranoid. He kept running wide, and he ran around them all."

Gangsters were going to get him or something;   What has this got to do with the result of this race in Mexico ?

Australian writers love to ad a little bit of nothing relevant to a story don't they ?


Offline The Jackal

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« 2011-Jul-06, 10:15 PM Reply #34 »
Phar Lap was more myth than legend.

I would strongly suggest that the fields that both Horlicks and Better Loosen Up beat in their Japan Cup victories were far superior to the field for Phar Lap's Agua Caliente Handicap.

How many horses from outside the American continent ran in Phar Laps race?
Who cares if there was a Preakness Stakes winner in it, the Preakness is an age restricted race and certainly no suggestion of ongoing greatness.

That would be like suggesting the 2003 Cox Plate  was strong because Clangalang ran in it.

If the majority of the horses in Phar Lap race were Western USA based, then there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that it would have been anywhere near the best field available.

Offline The Jackal

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« 2011-Jul-06, 10:17 PM Reply #35 »
I've seen the video of Phar Laps win in Mexico, there's is no way he ran 5 and 6 deep the whole way either, another load of embellished crap.

Offline The Jackal

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« 2011-Jul-06, 11:05 PM Reply #36 »
Dr Freeland skipped the Kentucky Derby, ran last in the Belmont Stakes.
2 years later his owner flicked him off to somebody else, he won only mid tier races beyond the Preakness, some of which were claimers.

The best horses of the early 1930's era in the USA were known as the Big 4. They were Twenty Grand, Jamestown, Equipoise and Mate.
Other top class US horses at this time were Plucky Play and Gallant Sir 
Mate also raced successfully internationally winning the Group 2 Challenge Stakes at Newmarket in England and ran 2nd in the Group 1 Coronation Cup.
None of the above horses competed in Mexico.

Phar Lap's Agua Caliente Handicap was only described as the most lucrative race in North America at the time. The field was described as moderate.

Gallant Sir won the Agua Caliente Handicap the year after Phar Lap, breaking Phar Lap's track record in the process, and won again the following year as well.
There were only ever 2 other renditions of the Agua Caliente Handicap beoynd this, 1938 when Sea Biscuit won, and 1958 when it was won by one of America's greatest horses in Round Table.

Offline worldisavampire

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« 2011-Jul-06, 11:06 PM Reply #37 »
Haha. Well there you go.

I suppose when you bag everything to do with sport and life you may as well have a crack at Phar Lap.

Very entertaining.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2011-Jul-07, 01:06 AM Reply #38 »
I've seen the video of Phar Laps win in Mexico, there's is no way he ran 5 and 6 deep the whole way either, another load of embellished crap.

He is 5 and 6 deep for most of the race before taking the lead at the turn out of the back straight.

An amazing performance by any measure. And he was supposed to have a crook hoof, wasn't he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bROtR5ivyZw

Offline firezuki

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« 2011-Jul-07, 01:52 AM Reply #39 »
Yeah, he had a cracked hoof and still had his winter coat in the Mexican heat.  He was out exercising for about an hour
before the race.  Locals thought the trainer was crazy. 
As I've said, and I would never bag the boy, I'd love to have seen what he might have done to them at four. 
And had he lived after that, I think America would have seen something really special. 

Jim Pike

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« 2011-Jul-07, 07:53 AM Reply #40 »
Been to a few tracks in America but not the one in Tijuana where Phar Lap won and the one thing they all have in common is the very small circumference which means travelling wide is a distinct disadvantage(even more pronounced than it would be in Australia) Phar Lap was a fairly big horse(over 17 hands) so he would have been much better on a big track, he would have been a sensation in England/France etc especially on the turf

Beyond comprehension how anyone can actually knock Phar Lap, should be locked up in Guantanomo Bay as a terrorist, if that isn't about as unpatriotic as it gets I don't know what is!!  :lol:   :lol:

Offline Gintara

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« 2011-Jul-07, 07:32 PM Reply #41 »
We have to remember that the sky was bluer, the grass greener and the girls prettier back then  :unsu

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2011-Jul-07, 07:37 PM Reply #42 »
I reckon the girls  had more class back then :whistle:

Offline Gintara

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« 2011-Jul-08, 03:56 PM Reply #43 »
I reckon the girls  had more class back then :whistle:

Maybe we're just getting older Wily  :/ but I tend to agree with you. Some of the stuff I hear goes on now wouldn't have happened back when I was a youngster  :shy:

Offline firezuki

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« 2011-Jul-08, 04:04 PM Reply #44 »
You should try driving a cab.

Steve M

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« 2011-Jul-12, 12:13 AM Reply #45 »

Steve M

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« 2011-Jul-12, 12:19 AM Reply #46 »

Offline firezuki

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« 2011-Jul-12, 03:35 AM Reply #47 »
The above is misleading but probably fodder for the casual reader.
Phar Lap did not beat the "world's best gallopers" at his only overseas start.  He didn't even beat America's best. 
There was no Euro champ present nor Asian.  Even the Antarctic champ was absent.

Steve M

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« 2011-Jul-12, 07:33 AM Reply #48 »
Mate it's snapshot graphic from a daily to the masses  :bleh:  :bleh: :bleh: :bleh:

Offline firezuki

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« 2011-Jul-12, 07:50 AM Reply #49 »
Yeah, I think that's what I was getting at in my first line.


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