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Rating the Australian victories OS - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK

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Jim Pike

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« 2011-Jul-12, 10:30 AM Reply #50 »
Pretty sure Sailors Guide wasn't first passed the post in the Washington international either! The yanks have the "World" series in baseball don't they? how many international teams play in it? you can always say that the "best" horses weren't there but that is only a matter of opinion, when Phar Lap won it was the worlds richest race, when a Horse wins the Breeders cup/Japan Cup/Dubai etc races they say they beat "the worlds best" and yet there are always a lot of top horses that are not there, Kingston Town was never there? does that downgrade the race or the winner? I think you are nit picking as I am sure there wasn't a horse on this planet or anywhere in the universe that could/would have beaten Phar Lap in the Agua Caliente which by your bloody stupid comments you are trying to infer

Offline The Jackal

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« 2011-Jul-12, 10:31 AM Reply #51 »
Talk about not letting the truth get in the way of a good story, there are more holes here than Swiss cheese.
Some of these horses are about as Australian as Vic Darchinyan or Kostya Tsuyu.
Phar Lap and Starcraft are both NZ Breds, Karasi and imported Irish horse.
If the writer is going to mention all of that list as Australian Exports, might as well throw in the Hong Kong wins of Sunline, Grey Invader and Romanee Conti as well.
Hell throw in the success of Moroney's Happyanyouknowit in the USA as well,

It's obvious the article is written in haste.

The only 3 horses on the list that could be suggested to have beaten the world's best in their careers were Better Loosen Up, Takeover Target and Choisir.

Offline bgm1409

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« 2011-Jul-12, 10:45 AM Reply #52 »
Pretty sure Tobin Bronze went OK in the US.  Noholme was also successful I believe.  Don't understand the relevance of Sailor's Guide winning on protest--he either won the race or he didn't.

Offline The Jackal

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« 2011-Jul-12, 10:50 AM Reply #53 »
Tobin Bronze won 4 from 16 in the USA and nothing of note.

Offline The Jackal

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« 2011-Jul-12, 11:02 AM Reply #54 »
New Zealander Prince Courtald who won the Cox Plate and VRC Derby in the same season went on to win 6 of 11 in the USA including 4 Group races, he was also placed 4 times over there.


Offline Authorized

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« 2011-Jul-12, 11:08 AM Reply #55 »
The only 3 horses on the list that could be suggested to have beaten the world's best in their careers were Better Loosen Up, Takeover Target and Choisir.


Were Assatis,  In The Wings, Saumarez and Epervier Bleu in Better Loosen Ups Japan Cup ?

Offline The Jackal

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« 2011-Jul-12, 11:30 AM Reply #56 »
No but Ibn Bey, who had placed form within 3 lengths of In The Wings at Group 1 level in England and had run 2nd in the Breeders Cup Classic at his previous start, was beaten by nearly 6 for the 2nd year in a row.

King George and Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes winner Belmez was also in the field running 7th.

In The Wings had run 5th in Belmez's King George beaten 8 lengths.

Offline Authorized

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« 2011-Jul-12, 11:40 AM Reply #57 »
Ibn Bey did a lot of travel. He was the Jim And Tonic of his era ?

He ran in Germany at the beginning of September over 2400m, Won in the Irish St Leger over 2800m, ran 2nd to Unbridled over 2000m a little over a month later in the USA, and a month after that was in Japan for the Cup.

Offline The Jackal

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« 2011-Jul-12, 11:47 AM Reply #58 »
There seemed to be 2 or 3 Irish St Leger winners in the Japan Cup field that year, you don't see those kind of horses aimed at Japan Cups these days.

I think there were a few more globetrotters from Europe in those days when Japan was not long established and the incorrect perception from the UK etc was that it might be easy pickings.

Saumarez and Epervier Bleu never won at Group 1 level outside of France and Assatis barely warrants a mention as his only Group 1 win was in Italy.

Steve M

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« 2011-Jul-12, 12:57 PM Reply #59 »
Yeah, I think that's what I was getting at in my first line.

Sweet - maybe I'd had a bad nights sleep  :chin:

Offline firezuki

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« 2011-Jul-12, 03:53 PM Reply #60 »
Pretty sure Sailors Guide wasn't first passed the post in the Washington international either! The yanks have the "World" series in baseball don't they? how many international teams play in it? you can always say that the "best" horses weren't there but that is only a matter of opinion, when Phar Lap won it was the worlds richest race, when a Horse wins the Breeders cup/Japan Cup/Dubai etc races they say they beat "the worlds best" and yet there are always a lot of top horses that are not there, Kingston Town was never there? does that downgrade the race or the winner? I think you are nit picking as I am sure there wasn't a horse on this planet or anywhere in the universe that could/would have beaten Phar Lap in the Agua Caliente which by your bloody stupid comments you are trying to infer

Sorry Jim but my comment was neither "bloody stupid" nor "nit picking."  I would never attempt to downgrade Phar Lap's achievements.
But facts are facts.  He didn't beat the "world's best" in the Agua Caliente any more than Better Loosen Up beat the "world's best" in the Japan Cup.
It's a total nonsense.  Unfurl the national flag from around your body and see it for what it was.  Phar Lap's effort in Mexico was phenomenal but it must
be kept in perspective.  Not even "America's best" ran in the Agua Caliente that year. 
But that's no reason to get your knickers in a twist. 
Contrastingly, it could be claimed, that should So You Think win this years Arc, that he will have beaten the best turf horses in the world.
And so there could very easily be the argument that SYT has put in the best performance of our overseas contingent - ever. 
Middle distance turf racing is where the Euro's excel.  And that's another fact. 

Offline firezuki

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« 2011-Jul-12, 03:55 PM Reply #61 »
Sweet - maybe I'd had a bad nights sleep  :chin:

Not a problem.  Guilty myself on occasion. 

Offline worldisavampire

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« 2011-Jul-12, 03:57 PM Reply #62 »
I wonder if Phar Lap has the furthest distance travelled by boat for a single race up until that point?

How long did it take him?

Offline grosvenor

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« 2011-Jul-12, 08:06 PM Reply #63 »
takeover target in japan was good . cruising on the pace and then just dropping them

Offline MagiC~*

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« 2011-Jul-12, 08:40 PM Reply #64 »
Some of the stuff I hear goes on now wouldn't have happened back when I was a youngster

Or, just wouldn't have happened to us  :tears:

Offline firezuki

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« 2011-Jul-13, 04:55 AM Reply #65 »
I wonder if Phar Lap has the furthest distance travelled by boat for a single race up until that point?

How long did it take him?

I'm not sure exactly but I seem to recall he went home to NZ on the way.  I think it was over 12,000 miles - his actual journey.
Time wise, I'm not sure. 

Offline Red Anchor

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« 2011-Jul-14, 08:48 PM Reply #66 »
Wasn't it Charlie Wittingham who took over the training of Tobin Bronze?? That name rings a bell as a trainer of an Australian horse

Kingston Town was sent to Charlie Whittingham in 1983/84.

Offline timw

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« 2020-Feb-01, 10:56 AM Reply #67 »
Here is the latest ranking of the world's best races (2019).  Interesting that the top 3YO races have to wait until = 32 where we see the five year old Commonwealth Cup over 6f. won by the champ Advertise in 2019 and the Japanese Derby. The Epsom Derby comes in at = 36 along with the Japan 2000 Guineas.  The Kentucky Derby is at = 46 and the Golden Rose at = 59.   

Cheers

The LONGINES World's Top 100 Group/Grade 1 Races for 3yos and upwards 2019
Found at:
https://www.ifhaonline.org/resources/WTGradedRanking/LWGRank.asp?batch=3

Ranking   Race   Distance   Miles   Surface   Track   Country   Age   Rating
1   Qatar Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe   2400      T   PARIS-LONGCHAMP   FR   3+   126.25
2   King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Qipco Stakes   2400   1.5   T   ASCOT   GB   3+   125.75
3   Prince of Wales's Stakes   2000   1.25   T   ASCOT   GB   4+   124.25
4   Coral-Eclipse   2000   1.25   T   SANDOWN PARK   GB   3+   123.00
5   Takarazuka Kinen   2200      T   HANSHIN   JPN   3+   122.25
6=   Arima Kinen (The Grand Prix)   2500      T   NAKAYAMA   JPN   3+   122.00
6=   Juddmonte International Stakes   2080   1.25   T   YORK   GB   3+   122.00
6=   LONGINES Queen Elizabeth Stakes   2000      T   RANDWICK   AUS   3+   122.00
9   Ladbrokes Cox Plate   2040      T   MOONEE VALLEY   AUS   3+   121.75
10=   FWD QEII Cup   2000      T   SHA TIN   HK   3+   121.50
10=   LONGINES Breeders' Cup Classic   2000   1.25   D   SANTA ANITA   USA   3+   121.50
12   Whitney Stakes   1800   1.125   D   SARATOGA   USA   3+   121.25
13=   LONGINES Hong Kong Vase   2400      T   SHA TIN   HK   3+   120.75
13=   Runhappy Metropolitan Handicap   1600   1   D   BELMONT PARK   USA   3+   120.75
13=   TAB Chipping Norton Stakes   1600      T   RANDWICK   AUS   3+   120.75
13=   Tenno Sho (Autumn)   2000      T   TOKYO   JPN   3+   120.75
17=   Dubai Turf Sponsored by DP World   1800      T   MEYDAN   UAE   4+   120.50
17=   QIPCO Irish Champion Stakes   2000   1.25   T   LEOPARDSTOWN   IRE   3+   120.50
19=   Jockey Club Gold Cup Stakes   2000   1.25   D   BELMONT PARK   USA   3+   120.25
19=   King's Stand Stakes   1000   5f   T   ASCOT   GB   3+   120.25
19=   Queen's Silver Jubilee Cup   1400      T   SHA TIN   HK   3+   120.25
22=   Yasuda Kinen   1600      T   TOKYO   JPN   3+   120.00
22=   LONGINES Hong Kong Sprint   1200      T   SHA TIN   HK   3+   120.00
24=   LONGINES Hong Kong Mile   1600      T   SHA TIN   HK   3+   119.75
24=   Prix Ganay   2100      T   PARIS-LONGCHAMP   FR   4+   119.75
24=   QIPCO Champion Stakes   2000   1.25   T   ASCOT   GB   3+   119.75
27   Chairman's Sprint Prize   1200      T   SHA TIN   HK   3+   119.50
28=   Darley Sprint Classic   1200      T   FLEMINGTON   AUS   3+   119.25
28=   Gold Cup   4000   2.5   T   ASCOT   GB   4+   119.25
28=   LONGINES Dubai Sheema Classic   2410      T   MEYDAN   UAE   4+   119.25
31   Rising Sun Gold Challenge   1600      T   GREYVILLE   SAF   3+   119.00
32=   Colgate Optic White Stakes   1600      T   RANDWICK   AUS   3+   118.75
32=   Commonwealth Cup   1200   6f   T   ASCOT   GB   3yo   118.75
32=   Stewards' Cup   1600      T   SHA TIN   HK   3+   118.75
32=   Tokyo Yushun (Japanese Derby)   2400      T   TOKYO   JPN   3yo   118.75
36=   Aquis T. J. Smith Stakes   1200      T   RANDWICK   AUS   3+   118.50
36=   Investec Derby   2400   1.5   T   EPSOM DOWNS   GB   3yo   118.50
36=   Satsuki Sho (Japanese 2000 Gns)   2000      T   NAKAYAMA   JPN   3yo   118.50
36=   TVG Breeders' Cup Mile   1600   1   T   SANTA ANITA   USA   3+   118.50
40=   Agency George Ryder Stakes   1500      T   ROSEHILL   AUS   3+   118.25
40=   Al Quoz Sprint Sponsored by Azizi Developments   1200      T   MEYDAN   UAE   3+   118.25
40=   Gold Cup at Santa Anita H'cap (ex Hollywood Gold Cup)   2000   1.25   D   SANTA ANITA   USA   3+   118.25
40=   LONGINES Breeders' Cup Turf   2400   1.5   T   SANTA ANITA   USA   3+   118.25
40=   Seppelt Mackinnon Stakes   2000      T   FLEMINGTON   AUS   3+   118.25
40=   Sun Met Celebrated with G. H. Mumm   2000      T   KENILWORTH   SAF   3+   118.25
46=   Al Shaqab Lockinge Stakes   1600   1   T   NEWBURY   GB   4+   118.00
46=   Breeders' Cup Sprint   1200   6f   D   SANTA ANITA   USA   3+   118.00
46=   Coolmore Nunthorpe Stakes   1000   5f   T   YORK   GB   2+   118.00
46=   Dubai World Cup Sponsored by Emirates Airline   2000      D   MEYDAN   UAE   4+   118.00
46=   Japan Cup in association with LONGINES - Deep Impact Memorial   2400      T   TOKYO   JPN   3+   118.00
46=   Kentucky Derby Presented by Woodford Reserve   2000   1.25   D   CHURCHILL DOWNS   USA   3yo   118.00
46=   L'Ormarins Queen's Plate   1600      T   KENILWORTH   SAF   3+   118.00
46=   PFD Food Services Makybe Diva Stakes   1600      T   FLEMINGTON   AUS   3+   118.00
46=   Qatar Goodwood Cup   3200   2   T   GOODWOOD   GB   3+   118.00
55=   Arlington Million   2000   1.25   T   ARLINGTON   USA   3+   117.75
55=   LONGINES Hong Kong Cup   2000      T   SHA TIN   HK   3+   117.75
55=   QIPCO 2000 Guineas   1600   1   T   NEWMARKET   GB   3yo   117.75
55=   St James's Palace Stakes   1600   1   T   ASCOT   GB   3yo   117.75
59=   Mile Championship   1600      T   KYOTO   JPN   3+   117.50
59=   Awesome Again Stakes   1800   1.125   D   SANTA ANITA   USA   3+   117.50
59=   Black Caviar Lightning Stakes   1000      T   FLEMINGTON   AUS   3+   117.50
59=   Comer Group International Irish St Leger   2800   1.75   T   CURRAGH   IRE   3+   117.50
59=   De Bortoli Wines Golden Rose   1400      T   ROSEHILL   AUS   3yo   117.50
59=   New Zealand Bloodstock Memsie Stakes   1400      T   CAULFIELD   AUS   3+   117.50
59=   Osaka Hai   2000      T   HANSHIN   JPN   4+   117.50
59=   Queen Anne Stakes   1600   1   T   ASCOT   GB   4+   117.50
59=   Queen Elizabeth II Stakes Sponsored by QIPCO   1600   1   T   ASCOT   GB   3+   117.50
59=   TVG.com Haskell Invitational   1800   1.125   D   MONMOUTH PARK   USA   3yo   117.50
59=   Warwick (Winx)   1400      T   RANDWICK   AUS   3yo+   117.50
59=   World Sports Betting Champions Cup   1800      T   GREYVILLE   SAF   3+   117.50
59=   Yulong Futurity Stakes   1400      T   CAULFIELD   AUS   3+   117.50
72=   Darley July Cup   1200   6f   T   NEWMARKET   GB   3+   117.25
72=   QIPCO British Champions Sprint   1200   6f   T   ASCOT   GB   3+   117.25
72=   QIPCO Prix du Jockey Club   2100      T   CHANTILLY   FR   3yo   117.25
72=   Santa Anita Handicap presented by San Manuel Indian Bingo & Casino   2000   1.25   D   SANTA ANITA   USA   4+   117.25
72=   Seppelt Wines Newmarket Handicap   1200      T   FLEMINGTON   AUS   3+   117.25
72=   TAB Doomben 10,000   1200      T   DOOMBEN   AUS   3+   117.25
72=   Tenno Sho (Spring)   3200      T   KYOTO   JPN   4+   117.25
79=   Centenary Sprint Cup   1200      T   SHA TIN   HK   3+   117.00
79=   Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud   2400      T   SAINT-CLOUD   FR   4+   117.00
79=   Manhattan Stakes   2000   1.25   T   BELMONT PARK   USA   4+   117.00
79=   Pegasus World Cup Turf Invitational Stakes   1900   1.125   T   GULFSTREAM PARK   USA   3+   117.00
79=   Prix du Haras de Fresnay-le-Buffard - Jacques Le Marois   1600      T   DEAUVILLE   FR   3+   117.00
79=   Qatar Sussex Stakes   1600   1   T   GOODWOOD   GB   3+   117.00
79=   Ranvet Stakes   2000      T   ROSEHILL   AUS   3+   117.00
79=   Runhappy Travers Stakes   2000   1.25   D   SARATOGA   USA   3yo   117.00
79=   Standard Chartered Champions & Chater Cup   2400      T   SHA TIN   HK   3+   117.00
79=   Vodacom Durban July Handicap   2200      T   GREYVILLE   SAF   3+   117.00
89=   Ladbrokes Caulfield Stakes   2000      T   CAULFIELD   AUS   3+   116.75
89=   Alfred G. Vanderbilt Handicap   1200   6f   D   SARATOGA   USA   3+   116.75
89=   Champions Cup   1800      D   CHUKYO   JPN   3+   116.75
89=   Darley Yorkshire Oaks   2400   1.5   T   YORK   GB   3+F&M   116.75
89=   Investec Coronation Cup   2400   1.5   T   EPSOM DOWNS   GB   4+   116.75
89=   LONGINES Grosser Preis von Berlin   2400      T   HOPPEGARTEN   GER   3+   116.75
89=   The Star Doncaster Mile Handicap   1600      T   RANDWICK   AUS   3+   116.75
96=   Charter Keck Cramer Moir Stakes   1000      T   MOONEE VALLEY   AUS   3+   116.50
96=   Fourstardave Handicap   1600   1   T   SARATOGA   USA   3+   116.50
96=   LONGINES Breeders' Cup Distaff   1800   1.125   D   SANTA ANITA   USA   3+F&M   116.50
96=   LONGINES Grosser Preis von Baden   2400      T   BADEN BADEN   GER   3+   116.50
96=   Man O' War Stakes   2200   1.375   T   BELMONT PARK   USA   3+   116.50
96=   Tattersalls Irish 2000 Guineas   1600   1   T   CURRAGH   IRE   3yo   116.50



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