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Offline nemisis

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« 2019-Nov-15, 03:10 PM Reply #325 »
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-14/wa-racehorses-welfare-plan-to-track-wellbeing-of-retired-horses/11702504?pfmredir=sm&fbclid=IwAR0ri8s_pjrl2R9YJiB0VFGFQipR-2dIERQuiC72d96uqMahCCfjikHRqgM

This is a more honest approach from WA.

Promises very little apart from an occasional check on abattoirs and knackeries.

It's really the platform racing will have to stand on.......tough sell for racing staff employed in sales offices seeking sponsorships for races in the future if this is what you would be endorsing.

Offline Jeunes

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« 2019-Nov-16, 09:14 PM Reply #326 »
I finally discovered the real reason for the decline of racing crowds in Melbourne. It is not due to the 7.30 report, people losing interest, entry tickets,  the new NSW racing features etc.

I am in Melbourne this weekend and decided to pop in to Sandown to check the races out as it has almost two decades since my last visit to Sandown. That is when I discovered the staggering reason why crowds are declining.

It is the price or hot dogs. It is $7 or $9 with the lot for a bun with a hot dog which has been sitting in a plastic wrapper, yep wrapper. A Pepsi 600ml cost $5.20. As it was cold, I bough a few chips for my group and did not get much change for $30 for very pedestrian food. I don’t blame the sellers of the food as they were nice but the race clubs for not looking at the complete package for a race goer.

For most non regular racegoers, the food and drink price drives  them away from attending the races as a regular event and thus impacting the turnover in the long run.

As a small punter, it beggars belief why I would goto the track when  I can go to my local TAB or at home where I can have 6 hotdogs for the same price of one at the track or even 4 litres if I was inclined of Pepsi.

A big shout out though for Craig Williams as he was amongst the kids signing autographs and taking selfies. A really nice gesture and was an absolute gentleman.  The kids were mesmerised and so were their parents.

That is what Racing needs to concentrate on, low food prices and more exposure of the horses, jockeys and trainers. Make it an event as V’landys has done with the Everest.


Offline wily ole dog

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« 2019-Nov-17, 07:16 AM Reply #327 »
Spot on Jeunes

Offline Gintara

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« 2019-Nov-17, 09:54 AM Reply #328 »
Jeunes I stand corrected but I read somewhere that Cup day admission was nearly $100  :wacko: throw on top food & drink and it doesn't leave much in the kick and worse if you have a family.

My 11 year old is into soccer so I took her & the family to the Matildas v Chile last week. Yes it was a friendly but we brought a $50 family ticket, perfect seats at Bankwest (no bad seats really) which was great value imho for an afternoon out.

Granted I spent another $180 at the game on jersey, ball & food  :dry:

Offline nemisis

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« 2019-Nov-17, 10:26 AM Reply #329 »
https://about.abc.net.au/correcting-the-record/abc-responses-on-the-final-race/

This is a response from the ABC a week after the 7.30 report.......only just read it.

A couple of things stand out for me.....
Hardwicke Stud in Yass were responsible for the penful of young stock at Meramist......sad indictment for racing when young stock are slaughtered before even tried for the purpose for which they are bred.
Hardwicke Stud have responded by saying this was stock that was "given away"

Reliable Kingdom had in fact been put through Camden Sales and purchased by Burn's Pet Foods......seems that the previous owners were notified ( you can only wonder by who) and he was one of only a few racehorses to be driven out of that facility.

I also would doubt that P Loffel transports 400 horses a fortnight......he's Victorian based and his b double holds 40 horses and my understanding he does a fortnightly run......maybe a typo?

Offline Arsenal

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« 2019-Nov-17, 11:31 AM Reply #330 »
The Final Race was shown on TV on 17th October the ABC response in the link posted by nemisis is dated 24th October...... RNSW complaint to the ABC was dated 14 November the question is was RNSW aware of the follow up ABC report of 24th October...... likely to be more correspondence if the ABC considers there are issues not responded to previously.

I imagine Hardwick stud would have been visited by this if RNSW was aware of it being named in the 24th October response.

Giddy Up :beer:



Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-17, 04:05 PM Reply #331 »
The Final Race was shown on TV on 17th October the ABC response in the link posted by nemisis is dated 24th October...... RNSW complaint to the ABC was dated 14 November the question is was RNSW aware of the follow up ABC report of 24th October...... likely to be more correspondence if the ABC considers there are issues not responded to previously.

I imagine Hardwick stud would have been visited by this if RNSW was aware of it being named in the 24th October response.

Giddy Up :beer:


Correct.

The matter is now with the body that deals with complaints at the ABC. The response link posted by nemesis is outdated.

In particular, the most serious allegation leveled at the program by Racing NSW (and a lot of other people I might add) is this:

It is disappointing that neither the ABC nor other parties involved in the two-year period of putting the program together apparently saw fit to report to authorities, when they became aware of the cruelty. While not within the ambit of this complaint, it is a matter for the ABC, as a public agency with integrity responsibilities, to consider. If the ABC has any evidence of abuse of thoroughbreds within the jurisdiction of Racing NSW, we would expect that such evidence be brought to Racing NSW’s attention as soon as possible.

The outdated report twisted the allegation into something they could answer - and get around addressing the specific allegation:

Was the ABC provided with footage of other horses being slaughtered and if so, why wasn’t that reported on? Is there no concern from the ABC about these animals?

The ABC was reporting on horse racing and wastage, not the slaughter of other animals. The racing industry has introduced and enshrined rules and policies regarding wastage and traceability and the program was examining that.


Talk about obfuscation.

This is the most serious allegation made of the ABC

It will be interesting to see how this specific allegation is responded to by the ABC.

On the information available, the ABC may have permitted hundreds of horses to suffer at the hands of the Meramist sadist just so they could "get their story" and delay it until two days before the Everest.

That action in itself is animal cruelty of the highest order.

You could perhaps make a case (debatable) for criminal charges to be laid under the NSW Prevention Of Cruelty To Animals Act 1979 - Section 33C, which states:

33C Complicity and common purpose

    (1) A person who aids, abets, counsels or procures the commission of an offence against this Act or the regulations by another person is taken to have committed that offence and is punishable accordingly.

    (2) For the person to be found guilty:

        (a) the person's conduct must have in fact aided, abetted, counselled or procured the commission of the offence by the other person, and

        (b) the offence must have been committed by the other person.

    (3) A person cannot be found guilty of aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring the commission of an offence if, before the offence was committed, the person:

        (a) terminated his or her involvement, and

        (b) took all reasonable steps to prevent the commission of the offence.

    (4) A person may be found guilty of aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring the commission of an offence even if the principal offender has not been proceeded against or convicted for the offence.


https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdb/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/poctaa1979360/


Offline wily ole dog

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« 2019-Nov-17, 06:08 PM Reply #332 »
Love your work PP👍

Offline nemisis

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« 2019-Nov-17, 07:49 PM Reply #333 »
Might be "outdated" but it contains all the answers to any of the questions you've posed on here.

All you are left with now is an answer to a question you don't like.......I would say you've been KO'd.

Who are the "authorities" you are talking about?.....It's an abattoir......I'll be surprised if there if a lot comes from out of it to be honest......maybe a worker or two will be sanctioned.

If you refer back to page 4 there is a clue there about the problems around reporting things of this nature.

Don't follow RNSW lead with the character assassination of the reporter, instead offer some ideas around improving the lot of racehorses.
« Last Edit: 2019-Nov-17, 07:52 PM by nemisis »

Offline Gintara

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« 2019-Nov-17, 08:34 PM Reply #334 »


Don't follow RNSW lead with the character assassination of the reporter, instead offer some ideas around improving the lot of racehorses.

It's a game of inches Nemisis and no doubt racing needs to take steps forward but remember - two wrongs don't make it right.  :bulb:

Caro Meldrum will probably win an award for this but like she did with the greyhounds, she stood by while others suffered all in the name of her 'story'

How anyone can be ok with that is mind numbing.  emthdown

Offline nemisis

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« 2019-Nov-17, 09:16 PM Reply #335 »
It's a game of inches Nemisis and no doubt racing needs to take steps forward but remember - two wrongs don't make it right.  :bulb:

Caro Meldrum will probably win an award for this but like she did with the greyhounds, she stood by while others suffered all in the name of her 'story'

How anyone can be ok with that is mind numbing.  emthdown
14,000 horses being bred into an industry that needs 9,000 is not a game of inches.

I understand early Wednesday is horse kill day at Meramist and I can't see how footage from this week will look a lot better than what we saw in the 7.30 report.

Your disdain for the reporter has been obvious from the start here and on any other threads that her name gets a mention.......unfortunately!

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-17, 09:42 PM Reply #336 »
14,000 horses being bred into an industry that needs 9,000 is not a game of inches.


That is a completely different issue.

There are a lot of moving parts he

i) The issue of animal cruelty captured by hidden camera at the Meramist abattoir
ii) The issue of horses being sent to abattoirs full stop
iii) The number of horses being bred and if it exceeds demand
iv) The scale of the problem of NSW racehorses ending up in abbotoirs

My thoughts FWIW:

i) The ABC has been irresponsible in not reporting what was seen on that footage as soon as it became apparent. Both the reporter and the team at the 7.30 report have displayed a cruel disregard for the welfare of horses by their actions and the management of the ABC should acknowledge this and apologize

ii) As stated before, I classify horses along with dogs as a different, more intelligent type of animal that do not deserve to have their lives ended in abattoirs. They are not the same as sheep and cattle. Horses and dogs were bred to help mankind prosper and part of this breeding was to introduce intelligence into them. Cattle and sheep were bred specifically to supply mankind with food.

I think the practice of horses having their lives ending in abattoirs should be banned. If the Germans or Chinese or whoever want horse and dog meat then let them slaughter their own.

iii) I do not know enough to make an informed comment.

iv) 14 or 16 out of 10,000 seems to be a figure to be applauded to me. What are the Victorian and Queensland figures? Seems to have been conveniently left out of the discussions.


I am concentrating on point i) and make no apologies for doing that or my comments. The ABC has been reprehensible in their behaviour.

Any horse lover who saw the footage would have been horrified at the Meramist footage and the expectation would have been that the ABC did the right thing and would have rescued horses suffering the same fate immediately. But they didn't. They put "journalism" ahead of horse welfare and now should cop the criticism they deserve.

Offline Jeunes

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« 2019-Nov-17, 10:43 PM Reply #337 »
PP, why do you stick with the figure of 14? My understanding is the ABC report was based on a coverage of 22 days so if the 14 you are referring to could be over just 22 days. Is there any evidence to support that it was 14 over a whole year?

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-18/slaughter-abuse-of-racehorses-undermines-industry-animal-welfare/11603834?pfmredir=sm

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-18, 12:23 AM Reply #338 »
PP, why do you stick with the figure of 14? My understanding is the ABC report was based on a coverage of 22 days so if the 14 you are referring to could be over just 22 days. Is there any evidence to support that it was 14 over a whole year?

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-18/slaughter-abuse-of-racehorses-undermines-industry-animal-welfare/11603834?pfmredir=sm

The report you quoted has confusing details.

Quoting directly from your link - and my questions in red.

For the past two years Elio Celotto and the Coalition for the Protection of Racehorses have been watching the Meramist Abattoir located north of Brisbane.

Using perimeter cameras, they have recorded the daily activities on the ground.

Meramist slaughters mixed livestock, including an estimated 500 horses a month.


These are "horses" - not thouroughbred racehorses which the allegations pertain to


Thoroughbreds identified at Meramist in the last 18 months

    Sunny Fame
    Only Money
    Rapid Feet
    Bumbunga
    Valtari
    Moonline Dancer
    Take A Chance
    Vortuka
    Absolutely Win


So nine thoroughbreds in 18 months. Then immediately below that table is this:


The process has revealed around 300 racehorses went through Meramist Abattoir in just 22 days.

So how can they say in one paragraph that there were 9 in 18 months and in the next say that there were 300 in 22 days.

Do you see my problem with the ABC figures?



Any comment Jeunes on the ABC not revealing cruelty as soon as they became aware of it? I notice you seem to drag us off the main point of criticism every time.

I take it that you must think it is OK to extend the suffering of horses for (what looks to be 2 years) because it is justified by "the cause" - whatever the "cause" is - Walkley Award for journalists with hyphenated surnames, hatred of Peter V'Landys and Racing NSW, whatever.

And as I said above, I would like to see them ban racehorses being sent to abattoirs altogether. Of all the states, NSW seems closer to this position than any other state yet the false narrative is suggesting the complete opposite.

Offline Jeunes

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« 2019-Nov-18, 05:44 AM Reply #339 »
PP, please stop putting words in people’s mouths regarding if it is ok for the report to have  taken two years etc and cruelty aspects..

I have consistently asked for an inquiry so that the ABC, Racing bodies including your hero Vlandys can face questions.

The questions should include why it took so long to report the cruelty and questions for all Racing bodies regarding tracking etc.

Vlandys can answer the questions you have refused to answer previously ie did Racing NSW know about Camden Horse Sales considering they had a person write to them and they responded back so why the denials. Also how come they could not do a simple ABN search as alluded in some of the stories posted by others.

Below is a link that Arsenal posted which contradicts V’landys and Racing NSW knowledge of Camden sales.

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-24/racing-nsw-told-about-prohibited-thoroughbred-sales-2018-emails/11633132?pfmredir=sm

Everyone is accountable for this mess including the ABC and Racing Bodies so let’s find the truth. I think having everyone under the microscope and having people finally respond to questions under oath will give an inclination to the public that no one is above facing scrutiny.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2019-Nov-18, 09:01 AM Reply #340 »
14,000 horses being bred into an industry that needs 9,000 is not a game of inches.!


Nem, how do you come to the conclusion we only need 9000?

Offline Arsenal

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« 2019-Nov-18, 09:52 AM Reply #341 »
The 21 page letter from RNSW to the ABC would have been drafted by one of Sydney's most expensive legal firms while very detailed as one would expect from a high profile lawyer making a submission in a pleading in a court of law IMO  it was far too long for the ABC to expect them to respond in detail it'll probably finish in the WPB if it isn't in it already ...RNSW is upset V'Landys was ambushed that's what investigative journos do V'Landys has been around long enough to know that....he went in to the interview with his eyes wide open ....it's a non issue really what is of interest at present is the Hardwicke Stud allegations in the ABC follow up report one week after the 4 Corners program ....nothing on the RNSW website indicates RNSW were aware of this allegation or had taken any action to investigate the claims that the stud ships unwanted stock to be slaughtered ...RNSW has been alerted to this issue let's see how they respond.

Giddy Up :beer:

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-18, 11:20 AM Reply #342 »

Below is a link that Arsenal posted which contradicts V’landys and Racing NSW knowledge of Camden sales.

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-24/racing-nsw-told-about-prohibited-thoroughbred-sales-2018-emails/11633132?pfmredir=sm


It allegedly contradicts V'Landys.

What happened to the one eyed filly wouldn't have happened if they banned horses being slaughtered in abattoirs.

Racing NSW told Ms Jorgensen it could not act because the business is in Victoria, but there is a business with an almost identical name belonging to the owner of NSW knackery Burns Pet Foods

Are you saying that Racing NSW is lying? Is there not a business in Victoria with a similar name that could have been deliberately involved to flout the laws by deception? Do you know this for sure?

And be very careful supporting people like Mehreen Faruqi calling for Royal Commissions.

If she has her way there will be no horse racing any more.

And can I once again labour the very point made by Racing NSW in their complaint

Yet there is no effort by the program to explain that Racing NSW has no association with, or control over, Queensland’s Meramist Abattoir or was aware of the atrocities occurring at that facility. Further, no substantive evidence of these serious and unfounded allegations are presented on the program.

The purpose of creating a false narrative where Racing Victoria and Racing Queensland are excluded from any discussion is part of the "pile on".

This discredits a lot of critics and it is getting to the point you just have to conclude that a lot of this is driven by their hatred of one person rather than a genuine concern for animal welfare.

Offline Jeunes

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« 2019-Nov-18, 01:22 PM Reply #343 »
It allegedly contradicts V'Landys.

What happened to the one eyed filly wouldn't have happened if they banned horses being slaughtered in abattoirs.

Racing NSW told Ms Jorgensen it could not act because the business is in Victoria, but there is a business with an almost identical name belonging to the owner of NSW knackery Burns Pet Foods

Are you saying that Racing NSW is lying? Is there not a business in Victoria with a similar name that could have been deliberately involved to flout the laws by deception? Do you know this for sure?

And be very careful supporting people like Mehreen Faruqi calling for Royal Commissions.

If she has her way there will be no horse racing any more.

And can I once again labour the very point made by Racing NSW in their complaint

Yet there is no effort by the program to explain that Racing NSW has no association with, or control over, Queensland’s Meramist Abattoir or was aware of the atrocities occurring at that facility. Further, no substantive evidence of these serious and unfounded allegations are presented on the program.

The purpose of creating a false narrative where Racing Victoria and Racing Queensland are excluded from any discussion is part of the "pile on".

This discredits a lot of critics and it is getting to the point you just have to conclude that a lot of this is driven by their hatred of one person rather than a genuine concern for animal welfare.

So when Racing NSW said in a statement they had no knowledge of Camden Sales but Racing NSW has sent a letter advising Ms Jorgensen they could not act, who is telling the “alleged” truth or which “truth” from Racing NSW we should believe. PP, I like you to advise which “alleged truth@ to believe?

The other issue is that Racing NSW could not put two and two together after they were advised of the pet food supplier name etc. it is like someone saying in because there are people with similar names, it is too hard to dig further. That is not compliance, it is laziness 

If that is Racing NSW way of handling investigations, there is a big issue especially as the response was within 24 hours.
« Last Edit: 2019-Nov-18, 01:31 PM by Jeunes »

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-18, 02:16 PM Reply #344 »
So when Racing NSW said in a statement they had no knowledge of Camden Sales but Racing NSW has sent a letter advising Ms Jorgensen they could not act, who is telling the “alleged” truth or which “truth” from Racing NSW we should believe. PP, I like you to advise which “alleged truth@ to believe?

The other issue is that Racing NSW could not put two and two together after they were advised of the pet food supplier name etc. it is like someone saying in because there are people with similar names, it is too hard to dig further. That is not compliance, it is laziness 

If that is Racing NSW way of handling investigations, there is a big issue especially as the response was within 24 hours.

Honest questions.

Can you point me in the direction of the relevant legislation where it says Racing NSW is responsible for cruelty to animals and racehorses being slaughtered in NSW abattoirs?

And just so we don't perpetuate the false narrative about this being a Racing NSW issue alone (NSW has led the way in horse welfare), do you know what the responsibilities are of Racing Queensland and Racing Victoria in respect of horse welfare?

This is the link for NSW Prevention of Cruelty To Animals Act.

I looked but I couldn't see where it says Peter V'Landys is responsible for the welfare of every racehorse in NSW

https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdb/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/poctaa1979360/

Looking forward to your answers   emthup

Offline Jeunes

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« 2019-Nov-18, 02:33 PM Reply #345 »
Honest questions.

Can you point me in the direction of the relevant legislation where it says Racing NSW is responsible for cruelty to animals and racehorses being slaughtered in NSW abattoirs?

And just so we don't perpetuate the false narrative about this being a Racing NSW issue alone (NSW has led the way in horse welfare), do you know what the responsibilities are of Racing Queensland and Racing Victoria in respect of horse welfare?

This is the link for NSW Prevention of Cruelty To Animals Act.

I looked but I couldn't see where it says Peter V'Landys is responsible for the welfare of every racehorse in NSW

https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdb/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/poctaa1979360/

Looking forward to your answers       emthup    

If you read all my posts, you would see all the Racing bodies have a responsibility. The difference is Queensland is having an inquiry while Racing Victoria are starting dialogue moving forward. Those bodies chose not to attack ABC but handle the root cause which causing the non racing public and sponsors issues.


Interesting that you brought the Cruelty Act as you implied the ABC reporter may be liable too. So my question is if someone brought about allegations of where Racing NSW law has been circumvented or ignored, what are the penalties and if none, was Racing NSW act of preventing racehorses sent to knackeries just a PR stunt especially if they did not investigate it properly.

Racing NSW has a law that prevents racehorses being used for animal consumption or similar in NSW. Why have this law if you cannot enforce it especially if the investigators cannot do a simple ABN search and then deny they new about Camden sales? Was it a propaganda stunt? If you want to put yourself as superior for having a rule then enforce it.

I have advised my views about racing bodies previously. Qld are having an inquiry and Racing Victoria are trying to have dialogue. They both chose to do something about the report and the root cause.

The general public think all Racing bodies should be responsible for all racehorses from start to finish. We can the debate the realistic option till the cows come home. However none of the Racing bodies including Racing NSW want to discuss it or refute the notion so you should ask V’landys the question of responsibility for Racing NSW as you asked me especially if he can attend an open “unscripted” media session.

I was decent and answered your questions where once again you failed to answer my questions. So if you are going to quote me in the future, please answer the questions of the “alleged truth”.
« Last Edit: 2019-Nov-18, 02:43 PM by Jeunes »

Offline Jeunes

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« 2019-Nov-18, 02:44 PM Reply #346 »
So when Racing NSW said in a statement they had no knowledge of Camden Sales but Racing NSW has sent a letter advising Ms Jorgensen they could not act, who is telling the “alleged” truth or which “truth” from Racing NSW we should believe. PP, I like you to advise which “alleged truth@ to believe?

The other issue is that Racing NSW could not put two and two together after they were advised of the pet food supplier name etc. it is like someone saying in because there are people with similar names, it is too hard to dig further. That is not compliance, it is laziness 

If that is Racing NSW way of handling investigations, there is a big issue especially as the response was within 24 hours.

Cmon PP, please feel to answer the “alleged truth”? Which version????

Offline Gintara

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« 2019-Nov-18, 05:54 PM Reply #347 »
14,000 horses being bred into an industry that needs 9,000 is not a game of inches.

I understand early Wednesday is horse kill day at Meramist and I can't see how footage from this week will look a lot better than what we saw in the 7.30 report.

Your disdain for the reporter has been obvious from the start here and on any other threads that her name gets a mention.......unfortunately!

Nemisis by game of inches I mean moving forward. You can't expect racing to suddenly be perfect, it takes time to establish and importantly police the correct policies.

You're correct and she deserves every bit of disdain too. I my eyes she's an agenda driven activist who twists what she can to suit her spiel. If she told me the sky was blue I'd go out and check - that's how much I believe her 'facts'  emthdown
« Last Edit: 2019-Nov-18, 08:04 PM by Gintara »

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-18, 06:10 PM Reply #348 »
Nemisis by game of inches I mean moving forward. You can expect racing to suddenly be perfect, it takes time to establish and importantly police the correct policies.

You're correct and she deserves every bit of disdain too. I my eyes she's an agenda driven activist who twists what she can to suit her spiel. If she told me the sky was blue I'd go out and check - that's how much I believe her 'facts'  emthdown

  emthup

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-18, 06:14 PM Reply #349 »
If you read all my posts, you would see all the Racing bodies have a responsibility. The difference is Queensland is having an inquiry while Racing Victoria are starting dialogue moving forward. Those bodies chose not to attack ABC but handle the root cause which causing the non racing public and sponsors issues.


Yeah they are not attacking the ABC because they weren't attacked in the first place and aren't falsely being portrayed as the devil in all of this. They are way behind NSW in horse welfare.

"Racing Victoria are starting dialogue moving forward"

  :lol:


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