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TRANS-GENDER MARES COMPROMISE THEIR FERTILITY AND THE WFA SCALE? - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK

Author Topic: TRANS-GENDER MARES COMPROMISE THEIR FERTILITY AND THE WFA SCALE?  (Read 2430 times)

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Offline Peter Mair

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O.P. « 2020-Dec-09, 08:44 PM »

DO TRANS-GENDER MARES COMPROMISE THEIR FERTILITY AND THE  WFA SCALE?

 .................. so far, how many good progeny are linked to Sunline, Black Caviar and Winx?

I think the answer is none. Does anyone expect outcomes to change?

There is an issue when 'legendary best'  mares, running on into their mature years, are not throwing progeny of any consequence on the track.  Questions arise about transgender treatments of these 'champions'.

One question about poor performing progeny is 'why not'?

A more relevant question is about whether the 'trans gender' drugging to mimic 'male' mares,  given weight concessions,  is  unfairly responsible for them being considered 'champions'.

.................. relevant integrity issues for the racing industry include taking professional advice about trans-gender mares showing 'compromised fertility' and taking 'unfair advantage' under the WFA scale.


Offline Gintara

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« 2020-Dec-09, 09:32 PM Reply #1 »
Did Don Bradman have any offspring that were as good as him? What about Michael Jordan? Dawn Fraser, any swimmers?

It's pretty rare to find a 'champion' who threw one as good as they were. Why were they champions? How do we get one? It's the age old question that no one can answers.

Instead you jump at shadows.  :shutup:

Offline nemisis

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« 2020-Dec-09, 09:34 PM Reply #2 »
Horse breeding is an absolute lottery Peter and it always has been.
Hard to remember any of the really good mares leaving really high quality stock....Leilani, Light Fingers or Surround.....come to mind.
That's how hard it is to find a champion!

Bonecrusher and Doriemus could be described as defying their breeding but the genes that count are there somewhere......that's the great thing about it all.

The fact that Winx was able to get in foal in her 1st season shows she could hardly be transgender......Black Caviar has been very fertile and as for Sunline......she did look a bit half-male......born that way I'd say.

Best chance is to breed into successful families.
« Last Edit: 2020-Dec-10, 05:29 AM by nemisis »

Offline nemisis

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« 2020-Dec-10, 06:14 AM Reply #3 »
Makyke Diva is another example.
First foal.....Rockstardom by Galileo sold for $1.5 mil.......absolute giant of a horse (that's what the dominant genes there delivered) who could never have stayed sound on concrete tracks in this country.
On sold for $17 k and found dead in his box at C Waller's stable  as a 4 yr old with $29k in the bank........RIP boy.

Mare is still producing so there is always hope but the good ones in the family will probably come from relatives.
https://www.justhorseracing.com.au/news/australian-racing/makybe-diva-celebrates-her-birthday-with-a-baby/564463

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2020-Dec-10, 06:23 AM Reply #4 »

Great expectations of performance as broodmares

............... my recollection is that SBCW set commanded high prices as broodmares ....an expectation that the good genes would show up.

Looking back there have been some broodmares that may not have raced at high levels but consistently delivered the goods.

Eight Carat is one that comes to mind.

The 'lottery ticket' explanation is a good one ......... the question on the table is whether the management of these champion mares over long careers may have compromised their fertility and genetics.

Offline nemisis

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« 2020-Dec-10, 07:26 AM Reply #5 »
I don't see anything there, Peter.
I did wonder myself if Winx would get into foal straight away.....but she did.

A mate of mine had to wait 3 yrs for his greyhound bitch to come into season after she was returned, when her racing days were over :what:

Eight Carat was a great family as was the Great Klaire.....still plenty of slow ones there as well

Online wily ole dog

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« 2020-Dec-10, 08:19 AM Reply #6 »
so far, how many good progeny are linked to Winx?

Geez, letís see, sheís had how many foals  :lol:   :lol:   :lol:   :lol: .

Online Jeunes

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« 2020-Dec-10, 12:07 PM Reply #7 »
Here is my uneducated view on the progeny of champion mares. A doctor once told me that if you decide to have children, have them early if possible as the older you get, the more health problems you have and your progeny. In most cases, it is true. That is why they scan for certain diseases if you are pregnant and having children after a certain age.

Most very good female athletes rarely produce offspring that can compete at their levels. This is mainly due to training regimes, dietary and other supplements they ingest. Look at female gold medalists over time and check to see what the kids turned out to be.




Offline Gintara

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« 2020-Dec-10, 04:03 PM Reply #8 »
Jeunes - my old girl threw a track record holder in her 3rd and final litter.

Putting the same sire over her first daughter - arguably a better type than her mother threw only moderately successful pups.

The answers a pineapple  :shrug:

Online Jeunes

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« 2020-Dec-10, 05:09 PM Reply #9 »
Jeunes - my old girl threw a track record holder in her 3rd and final litter.

Putting the same sire over her first daughter - arguably a better type than her mother threw only moderately successful pups.

The answers a pineapple  :shrug:

More exception than the rule.

Below is fun reading but more sibling examples than parents.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1170643-the-25-most-talented-olympic-families

Just on another interesting note, the Mannings in NFL are like family royalty. Peyton Manning is my favourite QB of all time. 2 Superbowls for him and 2 for his brother Eli. Below is a good short read about the family. Cooper the non NFL brother has a son who is arguably the highest rated high school quarterback in the country.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Manning

Online fours

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« 2020-Dec-10, 05:41 PM Reply #10 »
Hmmmm,

AFL has the Abbotts and NRL has the Rogers and crricket is stuck in a Marsh.

Fours

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2020-Dec-10, 06:03 PM Reply #11 »
I take it you mean Abletts
« Last Edit: 2020-Dec-10, 07:59 PM by JWesleyHarding »

Online fours

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« 2020-Dec-10, 07:06 PM Reply #12 »
My mistake.

I barely follow it as think it is a low skill game compared to others. eg in soccer if you kick the ball dead straight the coach will take you off as the goal keep er easily deals with that and if you miss alltogether you get no points plus the using hands and all that too..... I am not saying no skills and and no range ofskills displayed by the players but just low skill compared to other sports.

Fours

Offline timw

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« 2020-Dec-10, 08:26 PM Reply #13 »
What about the eunuchs, thatís hardly natural.  Perhaps we could ban geldings! 

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2020-Dec-10, 08:59 PM Reply #14 »


.......let us not ignore the facts

Overnight, as I wake,  taking refuge in early-morning 'racing talk' on 2KSKY, the interminably repeated mantra is about 'which' horse was best............... across all comers, before and after Pharlap.

Whatever, their relative merits, the dominance of aged mares in recent years, begs questions.

.............. there are fair questions about 'modern treatments' that turn 'girls into boys,  confusing the WFA scale  .... and then whether  gender 'treatments' render the girls genetically compromised.

................ these doubts will not just go away .............  vets are silent, so far.
 

Online Jeunes

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« 2020-Dec-10, 10:31 PM Reply #15 »
Hmmmm,

AFL has the Abbotts and NRL has the Rogers and crricket is stuck in a Marsh.

Fours

The Manning family in my opinion are superior considering the populations and sporting success.

Offline nemisis

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« 2020-Dec-11, 07:55 AM Reply #16 »
Once again Peter there is nothing to see.....you are just really putting up breeding theories.
If BC. and Winx had their gender altered through 'treatments',they surely couldn't have got into foal so easy.
Who would want a girlfriend like Sunline?.....imagine if you failed to produce the goods there   :biggrin:  ....no wonder she only had 4 foals.
No doubt these mares do get a bit of "help".....but they still can just really gallop.

Champion mares? .....old mares? .....everyone has their own theories.
Dulcie was 20 when she produced Balmerino and he became close to the best horse in the world.
She was also the grandmother of Surround and Purple Patch.
Lots of slow unsound ones in the family as well......that's the world of the thoroughbred.

Just on Don Bradman......no doubt in the world he would have relatives with excellent hand to eye co-ordination......but you also need the genes that  make you train and practice hard as well as the right temperament genes.....then you start getting close.

Want to breed a champion?
Good story here about Doriemus's father......one very lucky boy......his mum Golden Woods not so lucky.......she was dog meat before Doriemus hit the racetrack
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/racing/little-stallion-that-beat-the-odds-20090403-ge7rvw.html


« Last Edit: 2020-Dec-11, 02:35 PM by nemisis »

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2020-Dec-11, 12:04 PM Reply #17 »
"He guards Norman's legacy jealously: few outsiders have been allowed bring mares but Gilmore has used embryo transfer to send his prized genes around the globe."

How is, not allowing mares to be brought to him yet used embryo transfers around the globe, guarding his legacy? :chin:

Offline Dave

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« 2020-Dec-20, 06:30 PM Reply #18 »
I have never thought about it in the terms Pete describes i.e. "Transgender" but I agree 100% with Pet's analogy
What I do know is that every champion mare I have ever seen is very masculine, this makes them very good racehorses but very bad mothers.........Going back to Emancipation, Let's Elope, Makybe Diva, Sunline, Black Caviar to Winx they were all masculine, that is why Champion mares never throw foals that can gallop, as for being "transgender" I am not sure but I can see the logic behind the metaphor
Comparing Humans to racehorses is ignoring the facts, Humans are mongrels in a breeding sense, there is no planning in breeding humans, Racehorses on the other hand are Thoroughbreds, they all pretty much trace back to the same spot in their history, the Darley Arabian, the Godolphin Arabian and the Byerly Turk. ...there is much less variance in the Thoroughbred than there is in Humans, Thoroughbred is not just a word plucked from the  ether, it is an accurate description of a Racehorses pedigree, you cannot mate a thoroughbred mare with any other breed and register it as a Racehorse/Thoroughbred, it wouldn't be thorough!

Offline nemisis

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« 2020-Dec-21, 07:58 AM Reply #19 »
Dave, how would you know that champion mares make "very bad mothers"?
Just because they can't clone themselves.....might make them bad producers but take a look at any thoroughbred mare's breeding history.
In between the occasional success are, unnamed, un-raced or 1 or 2 start maidens.....pretty much standard fare for any thoroughbred mare......sadly!

Emancipation in 7 foals did throw Royal Pardon.
Rose Of Kingston was horse of the year and her Secretariat foal was Kingston Rule (best horse in Australia in his time) ....the mating of those champions worked.

That's the great thing about it all......imagine any breeder trying to get Bonecrusher into a 'Select' yearling sale.....they would be laughed at.
There are no experts on it.......breed into good families and go easy on the in-breeding would be my advice.

Online wily ole dog

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« 2020-Dec-21, 08:57 AM Reply #20 »
Easy on the inbreeding 🤔
Depends on how close up it is?

Offline napes

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« 2020-Dec-21, 11:17 AM Reply #21 »
Does anyone think only the champions get "help".

The ordinary mares need it more and some of them throw champions.

I'm pretty sure its not the drugs that stop champions throwing champions, its just that there aren't very many champions.

I'd still rather buy a yearling out of a good mare than a bad one.


Offline nemisis

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« 2020-Dec-21, 12:11 PM Reply #22 »
Just on Emancipation, three of her daughters produced stake-winners including Railings.
Any so called mothering shortcomings she may have had, have been blown away by her grand mother achievements....and that's how it generally works.
Her line still continues today.

Funny about the grand parent thing......I see a bit of my old man in both my sons  and I'll swear I could be looking at myself in one of my grandsons.
My word he is cheeky!

Offline Gintara

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« 2020-Dec-21, 06:14 PM Reply #23 »

I'd still rather buy a yearling out of a good mare than a bad one.

I don't know the stats in horses but back when I was breeding dogs, it was something like 7/1 getting a city winner from a city winning bitch but the odds blew out to 25/1 of getting a city winner from a non city winning bitch.

I doubt it would have changed too much these days either.

Offline napes

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« 2020-Dec-22, 10:01 AM Reply #24 »
Dawn Fraser's daughter couldn't swim, but Tiger's son looks like he can play golf!!


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