TRANS-GENDER MARES COMPROMISE THEIR FERTILITY AND THE WFA SCALE? - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK harm-plan harm-plan

Racehorse TALK



TRANS-GENDER MARES COMPROMISE THEIR FERTILITY AND THE WFA SCALE? - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK

Author Topic: TRANS-GENDER MARES COMPROMISE THEIR FERTILITY AND THE WFA SCALE?  (Read 2469 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wily ole dog

  • Group 1
  • User 218
  • Posts: 28140
« 2020-Dec-22, 01:02 PM Reply #25 »
He sure can. Amazing the similarities

Offline timw

  • Group3
  • User 2166
  • Posts: 688
« 2020-Dec-24, 08:01 PM Reply #26 »
When this thread was started Mr Mair asked the world to consider  "…...so far, how many good progeny are linked to Sunline, Black Caviar and Winx?"                        
The question then seemed to morph into how many 'champions' produce 'champions'                        
Everyone has their own definition of a champion.  Magical, a 7 time G1 winner has just been retired. Her mum was a 3 time G1 winner - that might fit the proposition that a champion mum can produce a champion - but I don't rate 3 time G1 winners highly as we would have too many champions.                         
Mr Mair hasn't defined 'good progeny'.                          
                        
Peter Pring identified 'good progeny' of champions in Analysis of Champion Racehorses (1977). Mr Pring identified 86 champions from foal years 1894 to 1955 ( ave 1.4 per foal crop) of which 21 were fillies and mares the first being La Carabine (1894) and the last Wiggle (1955).                          
 The 21 had 155 foals and Mr Pring ranked each foal either outstanding, very good, good, moderate, poor / not proven as a racehorse.                          
Of the 155 foals, 2 were rated outstanding, 7 very good and 14 good (one over fences). About 10 foals won races that were later classified as G1.  A 'good' rating was essentially given to any foal that won a race at a city racecourse in Australia or NZ that was not a stakes race (Listed or above these days).                          
Does Mr Mair agree that Mr Pring's rating of 'good' agrees with his own idea of 'good' progeny and if not what is his definition of 'good'.                         
                        
Looking at the Australia  and New Zealand 2012 foal crop (because I could get the numbers easily and the crop has just about finished racing so no more 'good progeny' are likely to emerge) the number of foals we                        
Australia   15,044                     
NZ   3,780                     
Total foals   18,824                     
I reckon only 2 possible champions came out of the 2012 foal crop: Santa Ana Lane and  Beauty Generation and neither were mares.                         
                        
I don't have foal crop numbers for 2000 to 2009 but I consider there were 26 possible champions in this era of which 6 were mares.  So not much has changed in 100 years as mares make up just under 25% of champions then and now which makes the task of producing champions no easier now as it looks like a numbers game to me.                        
                        
Cheers                        
                        
PS Greta Bradman is an opera singer and announcer on ABC Classic radio where I am sure she demonstrates all the batting skill of her granddad.                          

Offline Dave

  • Group 2
  • User 2322
  • Posts: 1174
« 2021-Jan-06, 08:48 AM Reply #27 »
There is a huge difference between  a “city winner” and a champion, it is even the same difference between multiple Group One winning mares and Champion mares, the difference is huge, to be a Champion you need a killer instinct, an instinct that few mares possess in the way a champion does, it’s not an “x” factor, it is more of the “Y” factor
I believe part of the problem is Champion mares always go to champion stallions, what makes them champions is strong dominant genes, breeding isn’t a democracy, you need one to be dominant and the other to assist, Thayer are always fighting for supremacy but even the “winner” is mortally wounded....with city mares and champion stallions, that is what happens, you have a dominant stallion gene and it improves the mares genes or vice versa, they tend to work together to produce a better result, you could call it synergy or team work, it doesn’t happen with champions, even their genes want to win at all costs, just an opinion and I do not profess to be an expert on breeding but I do know a little about racehorses,
I tell you what I find really weird, since the turn of the century every champion has been a female, from Sunline through Makybe Diva to Black Caviar and Winx, who has been the best male? That hasn’t happened since racing thoroughbreds began in almost 200 years, has it? 4 out and out Champion mares and not a single champion Stallion, we can blame breeding industry but surely even they would love to breed a champion male, not even a champ gelding?
 I mean there have been champion males overseas but not in Australia
There is something going on that doesn’t compute in that equation for mine
Doesn’t anyone else find that a little perplexing?

Offline wily ole dog

  • Group 1
  • User 218
  • Posts: 28140
« 2021-Jan-06, 10:07 AM Reply #28 »
Since 2000 you may be right. The breeding industry and to some degree I think the prize money structure hasn't helped some potentially champion males

Offline fours

  • Group 1
  • User 704
  • Posts: 7357
« 2021-Jan-06, 10:21 AM Reply #29 »
BIAS!,

Lots of potential male champs not given the chance to prove it due to being sent off to stud at 3

Fours

Offline Gintara

  • Group 1
  • User 16
  • Posts: 13069
« 2021-Jan-06, 11:46 AM Reply #30 »
Hmm since the turn of the century  :chin: Easy - Lonhro  :p


Easy to cherry pick your way through history though, why not 1990? 1980? ....

Offline wily ole dog

  • Group 1
  • User 218
  • Posts: 28140
« 2021-Jan-06, 05:09 PM Reply #31 »
Hmm since the turn of the century  :chin: Easy - Lonhro  :p


Easy to cherry pick your way through history though, why not 1990? 1980? ....

Love the Little O and yes he was a champion racehorse & stallion :clap2: :clap2:

Offline nemisis

  • Group 2
  • User 2461
  • Posts: 1471
« 2021-Jan-07, 09:47 AM Reply #32 »
Norman Pentaquad has been cloned  :o
https://www.theland.com.au/story/7076171/ellerston-welcomes-the-return-of-one-of-its-all-time-greats/?fbclid=IwAR3C0ZdLW8rrGpXbyzm6J2vuA6oYaoqvf-IVaHeRhqRZjrVElRowqbyZm5Q

I wonder if the new Norman has the extra foot.
And to think of all those years I wondered what happened to the sire of Doriemus..... :what:.....and now there is another one.

Offline fours

  • Group 1
  • User 704
  • Posts: 7357
« 2021-Jan-07, 10:07 AM Reply #33 »
Hmmmm,

Polo only I assume as not allowed for thoroughbreds racing is my understanding.

Fours

Offline timw

  • Group3
  • User 2166
  • Posts: 688
« 2021-Jan-10, 02:38 PM Reply #34 »
A useful data set to analyse whether champions produce champions might be the USA Hall of Fame  list of horses.  If wikipedia and my counting is up to scratch there are 193 horses in the US racing Hall of Fame which should provide a decent sample size to measure success of both sires and dams passing on their genes to a later generation of champions. The end of the civil war (1865) would make a useful starting point as the racing pattern commenced to reflect the pattern of modern day racing.  There will be a couple of breaks in continuity of racing because of anti gambling legislation passed in 1894 and 1908 which hopefully wouldn’t affect the analysis too much.  I will leave the analysis for another day. Someone else is welcome to have a go.  I note Mr Mair still hasn’t defined good progeny. 

Cheers

Offline Dave

  • Group 2
  • User 2322
  • Posts: 1174
« 2021-Jan-14, 05:22 PM Reply #35 »
Lonhro was a good horse but a long way from the aforementioned 4 mares, Lonhro beat Sunline in the lead up but when he went to the final he was always found wanting and they only ever ran him in the easiest races possible(for him), Champions lift in the Grand Finals.......not the preliminaries, Lonhro never really won a "Grand Final" they call all the lead ups Grand Finals (Group Ones)these days and that gives some horses an inflated rating, When the chips were down in the big one Sunline went to another level and Lohnro went MIA, Lohnro was on about a par with Hay List, both great Racehorses but not in the same Vein as the mares, Lohnro was imminently beatable in what should have been easy races for him
Just an opinion and maybe I have a different standard for classing a horse a Champion than some others
I can't really blame the breeders, most Champions don't race as 2 year olds or even early 3 year olds, that is certainly not where they shine, Breeders retire 3 year olds because they are very mature and to press on would mean they would likely be beaten more than they would win as the others catch up....better to retire them and breed from them than let the cat out of the bag, Breeders are only interested in breeding horses that will bring big money in the ring, the horses they retire early are mature types and will throw mature types hence they will be well sort after
No I can't blame the Breeders for this phenomenon, well maybe 5%....but it seems to me there is something else afoot here

Offline timw

  • Group3
  • User 2166
  • Posts: 688
« 2021-Jan-15, 02:47 PM Reply #36 »
Getting back to something close to the original point  of the thread I  note that Goldikova (a champion) died recently and i think the best of her foals were a group 3 winner and another that was group 1 placed. I also note that Desert Gold was the grand dam of Gold Rod  and I would be prepared to call him a champion but may not be quite what Mr Mair was looking for? 

To digress what we need is a Global flat racing Hall of Fame to bring all the champions together.  The start time could be circa 1850 when 'modern' horse racing commenced.  Every country that has a G1 race is guaranteed one place so that the Americans and Europeans don't get all the cake.  So Canada might have Northern Dancer, Sandpit for Brazil, Invasor for Argentina, Singapore and South Africa might have 'No Idea'. Other countries that don't have a G1 race can still be considered eg Hungary and Kincsem  Total global numbers limited to say 50 to make it very exclusive. Once the places are filled a horse can only get in if another is given the boot.  The International Federation of Horse Racing Authorities could host it.  Perhaps perversely it would give every one a chance to vent and that might be entertaining for five minutes.  Success in the breeding barn not to be taken into account - could be separate Hall of Fame for that.

Cheers

Offline JWesleyHarding

  • Group 1
  • User 231
  • Posts: 20996
« 2021-Jan-15, 05:45 PM Reply #37 »
"The start time could be circa 1850 when 'modern' horse racing commenced. "

I beg to differ.

Like all sports "módern  (insert name of sport) "  commenced the year the person commenting first took an interest in that sport.

 

Offline Gintara

  • Group 1
  • User 16
  • Posts: 13069
« 2021-Jan-15, 09:04 PM Reply #38 »
Lonhro was a good horse but a

I knew I'd get one  :p


BACK TO ALL TOPICS
Sitemap