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U.S. Racing afficianados here ? - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK

Author Topic: U.S. Racing afficianados here ?  (Read 2102 times)

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Offline Max Manewer

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O.P. « 2009-Feb-13, 02:40 PM »
Anybody here familiar with U.S. racing able to tell me the relative sizes of the PLACE (1st,2nd) and SHOW (1,2,3) pools as a rough guide ? I'm a bit of a  lazy  :censored: , and without my trawling the web,  thought someone might know ? I'd very much like to see the 1-2 adopted here .

Offline smarta

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« 2009-Feb-15, 08:06 PM Reply #1 »
Hi Max,

I'm based in the UK and getting quite into the USA scene now..
PLACE AND SHOW pools vary race to race and track to track.... I initially thought it would be a percentage but there is actually some very good value going around.
I also read somewhere that HK were going to start betting on USA racing as well, pools are going to be enormus when this happens.. (source drf.com not some gossip!!)
I'd love to see that system introduced here as the only suitable bet option here is win and most races place pot is 1/5th of the win odds!!! --- Ripoff i know..

Offline Max Manewer

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« 2009-Feb-15, 08:54 PM Reply #2 »
How do the Place and Show pools compare in $  terms to one another ? Beats me why it hasn't been at least tried in OZ ( I suppose it already exists in fields of 5 to 7) Takes away some of the horrors of photo finishes and protests, which should appeal to the punters.

Offline OldLarsy

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« 2009-Feb-16, 02:07 AM Reply #3 »
All betting place would do for me is make my horses finish 3rd instead of 4th   :lol:

Offline smarta

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« 2009-Feb-16, 03:49 AM Reply #4 »
Best site i would recommend you go to is Daily Racing Form - www.drf.com - there you will be able to see the divi's and see the closeness of them.
The other i recommend is tvg.com i think pool size is shown there....
Good luck

Offline Max Manewer

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« 2009-Feb-16, 08:24 AM Reply #5 »
Many thanks smarta, I will follow up those links.

Offline Grega9430

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« 2009-Feb-16, 09:20 PM Reply #6 »
More problems in the US -

A Credibility Gap Measured in Lengths
 

 
By Andrew Beyer
Tuesday, January 27, 2009;

When a 3-year-old delivers a phenomenal early-season performance, racing fans get excited. They hope that the youngster will be a star of the future, maybe a Kentucky Derby winner, maybe even the Triple Crown winner whom the sport has awaited for decades.

But after a gelding named This Ones for Phil scored a remarkable victory Saturday at Gulfstream Park, many fans -- or at least the cynical ones -- had a different reaction. This Ones for Phil epitomized what is wrong with the modern American racing game.

Thoroughbred racing has become less a test of horses than it is a competition among trainers. The most successful have been dubbed "supertrainers" because they achieve results almost without precedent. They compile winning percentages that dwarf the records of horsemen enshrined in the Hall of Fame. They acquire horses and transform them in ways that history's greatest trainers never dreamed of. Accordingly, bettors disregard the normal logic of handicapping when they evaluate horses saddled by Richard Dutrow Jr. in New York, Bruce Levine or Jason Servis in New Jersey, Marty Wolfson in South Florida, Kirk Ziadie and Jamie Ness at Tampa Bay Downs, Jeff Mullins in California and countless other miracle workers.


Wolfson pulled off an amazing feat when he saddled a pair of modestly bred 2-year-olds, one colt and one filly, in stakes races Oct. 18 at Calder Race Course. Both delivered explosive performances to win by more than 10 lengths, and the two of them ran what were arguably the two fastest races by any of the nation's 2-year-olds in 2008.

The colt, You Luckie Mann, was favored to win Saturday's Sunshine Millions Dash at Gulfstream, and he would have but for the presence of a rival in the care of another supertrainer. This Ones for Phil started his career in claiming company at Calder, raced eight times during the summer and fall and won twice without running notably fast. He had been trained in those eight races by Kathleen O'Connell, a capable horsewoman but a mere mortal, before the animal was sold and placed in Dutrow's care. Even people accustomed to improbable wake-ups under such circumstances were astonished by what happened Saturday.

Wolfson's You Luckie Mann went to the front, but This Ones for Phil made a powerful four-wide move on the turn and blew past the leader to score by more than two lengths. The winner sped six furlongs in 1 minute 9.1 seconds on the same day that high-class older female sprinters covered the distance in 1:10.55, and the effort earned This Ones for Phil a Beyer Speed Figure of 117. No horse so young has ever earned such a high number since the Daily Racing Form began publishing these ratings in 1992.

Not only was the performance extraordinary, but so, too, was the degree of improvement by This Ones for Phil. In his eight starts for O'Connell, the gelding had never earned a figure higher than 81. Dutrow had managed to improve his form by nearly 15 lengths.

Dutrow, of course, was the object of controversy as he trained Big Brown through the 2008 Triple Crown series. His admission that he regularly administered steroids (legally) to the colt stirred a national firestorm that led to the banning of the substances in most jurisdictions. Dutrow's long history of medication infractions was a subject of discussion throughout the Triple Crown. Nevertheless, drug testing is strict in the Triple Crown races, and there was no evidence that Dutrow did anything improper in his handling of Big Brown. He managed the colt flawlessly to prepare him for a peak performance in the Kentucky Derby. He is a skillful trainer who certainly has the ability to improve horses put in his care.

If This Ones for Phil was an isolated case, racing fans might be inclined to hail a brilliant training feat. But in an era when certain trainers repeatedly perform feats that defy the laws of nature and the logic of handicapping, bettors invariably suspect that they are using illegal substances. Other trainers do, too. Jack Van Berg, the No. 2 race-winning trainer of all time, appeared last summer before a Congressional hearing on drugs and was asked about the nature of the modern racing game. He replied: "It's chemical warfare out there."

Such distrust has corroded the very foundation of the sport. Honest owners are reluctant to invest in the game when they believe they can't compete with the cheaters. Many bettors have lost enthusiasm because the art of handicapping has become an exercise in guessing who has the best "juice." The public at large is alienated when it suspects that drugs are tainting the sport's greatest events. This is what happened in last year's Triple Crown series, and it could happen again in 2009.




Offline Max Manewer

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« 2009-Feb-16, 09:27 PM Reply #7 »
Don't imagine things are vastly different here.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2009-Feb-16, 09:30 PM Reply #8 »
Not sure about that Max

The massive improvement factor certainly doesn't happen

Offline Da Judge

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« 2009-Feb-16, 09:36 PM Reply #9 »
Not sure about that Max

The massive improvement factor certainly doesn't happen


one could throw up NORTHERN METEOR here,1 unplaced run,then a 3rd for hawkes,gai takes over and brakes a long standing course record in his maiden win,follows up with breaking the long standing 1200 record at randwick

Offline Max Manewer

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« 2009-Feb-16, 09:43 PM Reply #10 »
I think the success rate of certain trainers in major group 1 races over the last couple of decades,  could easily be construed as not necessarily owing to great horsemanship. Particularly when compared to the overall record of their stable runners, quite striking really. Boy, they lifted when it counted.

Offline Da Judge

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« 2009-Feb-16, 09:48 PM Reply #11 »
I think the success rate of certain trainers in major group 1 races over the last couple of decades,  could easily be construed as not necessarily owing to great horsemanship. Particularly when compared to the overall record of their stable runners, quite striking really. Boy, they lifted when it counted.


but max,maccamax told us vets have nothing to do with it,its all the trainers ability,and he has been winning at this game for 60 years(he told us remember)

Offline Max Manewer

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« 2009-Feb-16, 09:59 PM Reply #12 »
One likely suspect flared like a supernova in the 90's, the group one trophies  must have been seriously crowding the mantelpiece. At that stage the bookies had well and truly woken up.......I recall one winning a group one that opened and started 10/1, despite being much longer the totes, around $35 I think till the late tote crunch trimmed it up to about $17. The $35 would have seemed the right price judging by its indifferent form.

Offline Da Judge

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« 2009-Feb-16, 11:29 PM Reply #13 »
you mean JJS max?

Offline Max Manewer

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« 2009-Feb-17, 07:20 AM Reply #14 »
Not sure to whom you refer, and no names please ! Incidentally, the race referred  to earlier had three runners from the stable at about the same very cramped odds, considering their form. At the very least, the nagging doubts about this trainer had permeated the bookie's brains to the point where  they no longer wanted to play. Disturbing to think people spend vast sums on horses and play it fair, only to be dudded out of their chances at the big prizes by cheating   :censored: .

Offline Grega9430

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« 2009-Feb-17, 07:32 AM Reply #15 »
.

one could throw up NORTHERN METEOR here,1 unplaced run,then a 3rd for hawkes,gai takes over and brakes a long standing course record in his maiden win,follows up with breaking the long standing 1200 record at randwick

Da Judge, from what I can gather the Hawkes camp allways knew that Northern Meteor had that sort of ability but they were bringing him along slowly and were yet to push the button. He also did strike trouble in both of his runs for Hawkes. Gai went straight for the blinkers and the go button

Offline Da Judge

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« 2009-Feb-17, 08:37 AM Reply #16 »
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Da Judge, from what I can gather the Hawkes camp allways knew that Northern Meteor had that sort of ability but they were bringing him along slowly and were yet to push the button. He also did strike trouble in both of his runs for Hawkes. Gai went straight for the blinkers and the go button



bring an explosive sprinter along slowly,hmm,gai gets him,1st start for her and a course record,talk about a 360 turnaround,and as far as not pushing the button,please,whenever a trainer has an unraced youngster showing raw ability,providing it has no injury worries,they can't wait to see them deliver on raceday

Offline Grega9430

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« 2009-Feb-17, 06:20 PM Reply #17 »
Judgey, Hawkes has never been like that, his have allways had quiet trials and been ridden off the speed generally. But he won't do that again with one from an owner with 100's of horses in multiple stables.


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