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Online Jeunes

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« 2019-Nov-23, 07:38 AM Reply #425 »
Thank you Peter Mair.

Totally disagree. Field size has nothing to do with quality.

Have you not been watching Winx?

You must like the Peters.   :lol:

I actually alluded to Winx in an earlier post and what her retirement means as the wfa stars are weak.

Thus in your opinion if you have a very good horse in a field of 6-8 in a WFA G1 race racing against some handicappers, it is ok. I rather have 5-6 good horses with some handicappers in a 12 horse field as a better spectacle to watch.

PP, just admit quality of horses is not there. The bigger prizemoney will attract the bigger fields.

Also how many of the All Star mike this year would have run in the Cup if the mile was not there. Hartnell jumps out but rest maybe not or a couple at the most. Field below.

https://www.racenet.com.au/all-star-mile

Online PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-23, 07:44 AM Reply #426 »
The 2019 Australian Cup was won by Harlem beating 7yo mare Shillelagh and Trap For Fools who had won one G1 under the methods of Darren Weir.

The 2019 Ranvet was won by Avilius beating the UK G1 placed He's Eminent and dual NZ Group 1 winner Danzdanzdance

The 3 placegetters in the 2018 Australian Cup all ran in the Ranvet - so the "depth" was around the same.

The 2017 Australian Cup was a good quality race won by Humidor (under the methods of Weir) beating Jameka and both horses went to Sydney to run the quinella in reverse in the Tancred. In fact the Australian Cup trifecta ran the trifecta in the Tancred that year.

The Ranvet that year was run on a Heavy 10 with Our Ivanhowe (Germany G1 plus Doomben Cup) beating multi G1 winner Hartnell


Online PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-23, 07:52 AM Reply #427 »

Also how many of the All Star mike this year would have run in the Cup if the mile was not there. Hartnell jumps out but rest maybe not or a couple at the most. Field below.


But aren't you making my point? If my Aunty had balls......

The Australian Cup vs. The Ranvet I have it 1-1 with 1 draw over the past 3 years.

With the advent of the All Star Mile, trainers are likely to chase $5m ASM then $3m Doncaster or $4m QE2.

The $1.5m Australian Cup quality is going to get worse, not better with the ASM now being the major Melbourne autumn race.

Getting back on context, your definitive statement that the "Randwick Guineas and Ranvet Stakes are prime examples with the Australian Guineas and Australian Cup attracting better fields" does not measure up to scrutiny.

Online Jeunes

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« 2019-Nov-23, 08:35 AM Reply #428 »
But aren't you making my point? If my Aunty had balls......

The Australian Cup vs. The Ranvet I have it 1-1 with 1 draw over the past 3 years.

With the advent of the All Star Mile, trainers are likely to chase $5m ASM then $3m Doncaster or $4m QE2.

The $1.5m Australian Cup quality is going to get worse, not better with the ASM now being the major Melbourne autumn race.

Getting back on context, your definitive statement that the "Randwick Guineas and Ranvet Stakes are prime examples with the Australian Guineas and Australian Cup attracting better fields" does not measure up to scrutiny.

I disagree. They have better fields and letís not get in arguments about winners because luck plays a big part in races too.

If I use a facetious argument that the prizemoney of the races would mean that the Randwick Guineas and Ranvet Stakes will attract an inferior field than in Melbourne for the same period, you would be jumping up and down.

But when I bring the same point about the Everest, you go off on a ridiculous tangent and not even answer if a $15 race will attract a better field than $10m.

Sydney needs a boost in the autumn with more prizemoney. The Ranvet Stakes has a prizemoney of $700k. The Hunter and the Gong has a prizemoney of $1m each.  Where is the money better spent? Surely a $500k prize for the Hunter and Gong with a bonus would be better and make the Ranvet a $1m race. That is better programming and more chance of having the Australian Cup horses backing up or running in the a Ranvet then the Tancred and / or QE. What a series especially chuck in a bonus  for horses that competed in each.

A $3m bonus for horses that wins all the big WFA races in Sydney instead of giving it to the Everest. This willl invigorate the WFA Racing in the Autumn in Sydney.

I would be open to even throwing a $3m bonus if a horse can win the triple crown in Sydney.

What an end to the Championship if horses were alive going to the last leg. Not chucking another $5m to a race that already has captivated the interest of everyone. Sydney is a leader when it comes to racing in most areas but we can always look at new ways of spreading it.

« Last Edit: 2019-Nov-23, 08:38 AM by Jeunes »

Online PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-23, 03:10 PM Reply #429 »
I disagree. They have better fields and letís not get in arguments about winners because luck plays a big part in races too.

If I use a facetious argument that the prizemoney of the races would mean that the Randwick Guineas and Ranvet Stakes will attract an inferior field than in Melbourne for the same period, you would be jumping up and down.

But when I bring the same point about the Everest, you go off on a ridiculous tangent and not even answer if a $15 race will attract a better field than $10m.

Sydney needs a boost in the autumn with more prizemoney. The Ranvet Stakes has a prizemoney of $700k. The Hunter and the Gong has a prizemoney of $1m each.  Where is the money better spent? Surely a $500k prize for the Hunter and Gong with a bonus would be better and make the Ranvet a $1m race. That is better programming and more chance of having the Australian Cup horses backing up or running in the a Ranvet then the Tancred and / or QE. What a series especially chuck in a bonus  for horses that competed in each.

A $3m bonus for horses that wins all the big WFA races in Sydney instead of giving it to the Everest. This willl invigorate the WFA Racing in the Autumn in Sydney.

I would be open to even throwing a $3m bonus if a horse can win the triple crown in Sydney.

What an end to the Championship if horses were alive going to the last leg. Not chucking another $5m to a race that already has captivated the interest of everyone. Sydney is a leader when it comes to racing in most areas but we can always look at new ways of spreading it.

Rambling again.

Sydney needs a boost in the autumn with more prizemoney.

Are you serious????

A $3m bonus for horses that wins all the big WFA races in Sydney instead of giving it to the Everest. This willl invigorate the WFA Racing in the Autumn in Sydney.

What an idiotic suggestion. So Winx getting an extra $3 million 4 years running would have helped would it? How? The grounds were full. National interest was sky high. What on earth are you rambling on about?

I would be open to even throwing a $3m bonus if a horse can win the triple crown in Sydney.

Bonuses for horse winning triple crowns. How on earth does that improve racing?

I'm finished replying to you. Too much rot.  :wacko:




Online Jeunes

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« 2019-Nov-23, 03:37 PM Reply #430 »
Rambling again.

Sydney needs a boost in the autumn with more prizemoney.

Are you serious????

A $3m bonus for horses that wins all the big WFA races in Sydney instead of giving it to the Everest. This willl invigorate the WFA Racing in the Autumn in Sydney.

What an idiotic suggestion. So Winx getting an extra $3 million 4 years running would have helped would it? How? The grounds were full. National interest was sky high. What on earth are you rambling on about?

I would be open to even throwing a $3m bonus if a horse can win the triple crown in Sydney.

Bonuses for horse winning triple crowns. How on earth does that improve racing?

I'm finished replying to you. Too much rot.  :wacko:

So giving another $5 Million to the Everest is better.

By the way are you that chummy with Peter and want to defend him so much that you forgot that Winx never won the Ranvet or Tancred!!!

Another moronic defence of Peter.

Online jfc

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« 2019-Nov-23, 06:06 PM Reply #431 »
The fact is it has never been a better time to own a racehorse in NSW and that comes down to the efforts of your worst enemy. That must really hurt.
Fact?

In fact that alleged fact is something that for me is a palpable Lay.

Some owners like Les Samba and Ron Medich were parvenus presumably hoping this will help them gain acceptance from the old money descended from convicts.

But this pesky wastage issue has thrown a spanner into the works.

Others became owners in the hope of using their insider status to mount betting coups.

Here V'landys can take the lion's share of credit for utterly destroying that ambition.

Once owners who could not get on with bookmakers could instead bet with the Tote.

But no more, as PVL fiddles while the Tote burns up.

How stupid would anybody be to consider becoming an owner!





Online PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-24, 08:09 AM Reply #432 »
Fact?

In fact that alleged fact is something that for me is a palpable Lay.

Some owners like Les Samba and Ron Medich were parvenus presumably hoping this will help them gain acceptance from the old money descended from convicts.

But this pesky wastage issue has thrown a spanner into the works.

Others became owners in the hope of using their insider status to mount betting coups.

Here V'landys can take the lion's share of credit for utterly destroying that ambition.

Once owners who could not get on with bookmakers could instead bet with the Tote.

But no more, as PVL fiddles while the Tote burns up.

How stupid would anybody be to consider becoming an owner!

About half as stupid for anyone who reads this forum for intelligent, clear and concise comment.

You are rambling again jfc. You are reading too much of Jeunes postings.

In fact a song comes to mind by the great man hisself



Ramble on
Ramble on
When you're ramblin'
Days are gone

Online Jeunes

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« 2019-Nov-24, 08:37 AM Reply #433 »
This is what PP plays each night in front of Peterís photo.   :lol:   :lol:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oofSnsGkops

Online jfc

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« 2019-Nov-24, 09:13 AM Reply #434 »
About half as stupid for anyone who reads this forum for intelligent, clear and concise comment.

You are rambling again jfc. You are reading too much of Jeunes postings.

You resorted to such a desperate response because you were unable to find any rational way of challenging my points.

Here's another development affecting potential owners.

The growing global trend these days is for wealthier families to buy or sponsors sports teams rather than horses. Business hospitality is far more effective because most contacts would obviously prefer attending a catered sports match rather than waste a boring day at the races.


Online PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-24, 12:32 PM Reply #435 »

The growing global trend these days is for wealthier families to buy or sponsors sports teams rather than horses. Business hospitality is far more effective because most contacts would obviously prefer attending a catered sports match rather than waste a boring day at the races.

What arrant nonsense.

"Growing global trend", "wealthier families" (whatever the hell that means).

You just made that up.

I would suggest "wealthier families" that can afford to buy sporting teams use their spare change to buy racehorses.

Offline Atreus

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« 2019-Nov-24, 05:28 PM Reply #436 »
So the Gong goes to Waller as well.  Another G2 or G3 horse winning a grossly inflated prize vs the betting turnover generated by the race itself

Racing NSW have serious problems now with the Waller juggernaut

So far in Sydney this season there has been $60.4 million paid out as prizemoney.  Waller trained runners have won $19.9 million of that prizemoney so almost one third.  There have been 262 trainers with a runner in Sydney so the average trainer would expect their runners to win 230K in stakes.  So Waller is performing 86.5 times better than average.  Waller is allowed to control too many good horses as there is no way he is an 86.5 times better horse trainer than the average trainer

If we look at runners there have been 2706 runners amongst the 262 trainers so on average 10.3 runners per trainer.  Waller has had 402 runners so 39 times the average trainer.  So most of Waller's dominance comes from sheer weight of numbers.  He is allowed to train too many horses in other words

The fact is no trainer can truly train a stable of over 100 runners.  Once a stable gets beyond 100 runners then it becomes a network of subtrainers training many of the runners.  A punter does not know who is really training each horse.  It is a tremendous advantage for a Waller, Weir or Kris Lees to have control of 400 or more good horses as it means the other trainers have not got those good horses.  You can then place your runners in various ways under the handicapping system to advantage

Racing NSW needs to bring in stable limits as per Hong Kong so that there is a fairer distribution of the equine talent amongst all trainers.  Allowing a small number of trainers to lock up all the equine talent is slowly but surely killing the game

Online PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-24, 06:48 PM Reply #437 »

Racing NSW needs to bring in stable limits as per Hong Kong so that there is a fairer distribution of the equine talent amongst all trainers.  Allowing a small number of trainers to lock up all the equine talent is slowly but surely killing the game

So you have a model where Racing NSW brings in limits - you haven't mentioned other states (here we go again).

So what about Waller's Melbourne stable?

Did it occur to you that Waller might just move to Melbourne?

Or let me guess. You don't care as long as you have said your anti Racing NSW piece and moved on.  :nowink:

FFS. Hong Kong racing.

Yeah we can all go out to the races and watch geldings having their 50th start in a Class 2 and then go home and riot.

Online Jeunes

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« 2019-Nov-24, 06:56 PM Reply #438 »
Interesting part about Wallerís success is he has gone to a new level in recent years with Winx and others.

Reminds me of the late 80s when Cummings had Beau Zam, Campaign King, Sky Chase and his other G1 winners in Omnicorp, Round The World, Broad Reach etc

Freedman dominated for a couple of years in the 90s with Super Impose, Naturalism, Subzero, Mannerism, Schillachi etc.

Interestingly some of his most recent G1 or big race winners were given to him after Weir got suspended or WA horses coming to NSW. I am talking of Nature Strip, Yes Yes Yes, Kenís Dream and WA horse Come Play With Me. 4 out of his 6 group 1 wins this season were from horses that he took over. Not putting him down in anyway for that as he has improve them especially Nature Strip.

My question is in a few years time, what will Wallerís success rate looks like. Unlike Cummings, TJ, Hayes and Freedman he is yet to win a MC, CC and a Golden Slipper.

His Derby success is also not as great as the others but he is a better trainer according to the numbers for 1200-2000m as a proportion of his G1 wins.

I think he is a great trainer and one day he may surpass TJís record of G1 wins if he keeps up his strike rate. Bart was never a quantity trainer like TJ and Wallerís dominance is similar to TJ at his peak.

Racing NSW will like Waller winning races because other than Gai and him, most non racing people would not have heard of others in Sydney except for the Cummings surname. He is marketable and does good interviews too. To be fair to Waller, he won the two big ones this season and any trainer who does the same will have a high percentage of the prizemoney too.

Online jfc

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« 2019-Nov-26, 10:44 AM Reply #439 »

The fact is it has never been a better time to own a racehorse in NSW and that comes down to the efforts of your worst enemy. That must really hurt.

RWW's reflections apply to a number of topics here, but looks like he is another who does not concur with PP7's deranged claim.


http://www.theoptimist.site/robbie-waterhouse-reflects-on-racings-problems/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork

Online Jeunes

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« 2019-Nov-26, 12:02 PM Reply #440 »
Interesting article from Robbie.

The prizemoney and ownership angle is is good sign of our times. Majority of the single ownership has waned over the years with old money dying out or spread to family members who have no interest in racing.

Some of the new money buy horses but interest wanes. Even the sheiks donít see it as before and they run it more like a sideshow.

Offline Antitab#

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« 2019-Nov-26, 06:43 PM Reply #441 »
Robbie is right.

Everybody with any idea concurs that Racing funding is on a precipice.

Never been a more important time than the next two years. Another couple of mistakes by administrators and it will all collapse.

Online PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-27, 07:58 AM Reply #442 »
RWW's reflections apply to a number of topics here, but looks like he is another who does not concur with PP7's deranged claim.


http://www.theoptimist.site/robbie-waterhouse-reflects-on-racings-problems/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork

There is nothing in that link to dispute my claim about horse ownership.

Like some of the claims - really???

ďA punter who bets with me came and said he had lost $6.5 million for the year, and had been losing every year. He said he was betting with eight different agencies but they had all sacked him. The trouble was that he was only losing at the rate of four percent, and the corporates still couldnít make it work."

So he claims that "a punter who came to him and said" he loses $6.5 million a year and that the $6.5 million represents 4% of turnover.

So that punter is turning over $162.5 million per year.

Yep. That looks like a typical punter to me. We should all hang our hats on that.

I know turnover is dropping. But my statement on racehorse ownership is factually true at this time. You guys should get out of your rooms once in a while to get some sun. Go visit the upcoming MM's sale and have a look at that side of the industry.


Online Jeunes

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« 2019-Nov-27, 09:44 AM Reply #443 »
If people click on the races and horses, it will show you a list of owners etc. Most of them are multiple owners or studs or syndicates etc.

https://www.racenet.com.au/racing-form-guide/warwick-farm-20191127/all-races

Cannot see singular owners but maybe a tad hard as room is still dark.  :chin:

There are more and more multiple owners. I still remember the White, Tristan Antico, Dato Chin Nam, Inghams as more private owners but not much of them. Racing ownership seems more spread these days.

Offline Atreus

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« 2019-Nov-27, 06:32 PM Reply #444 »
Racing in Australia is done.  Falling betting turnover should bring about reform but it won't as they have the lazy option of selling racecourses open to them to kick the can down the road.  Selling Canterbury will pay for The Everest and all the new million dollar races for years to come.  And by the time the money runs out nobody will remember that reform was ever needed

The future of Aussie gallops is the same as the Aussie trots = zombie racing

As for the claim that it has never been a better time to be a owner I can't agree

In 2004 Racing NSW put owners' losses at $100 to $150 million = "Independent studies have indicated that it costs Owners in NSW $200 Ė $250 million per year to have their horse educated, trained, agisted, vetted, transported, etc, yet only received $91 million net in prizemoney and rebates.  (Prizemoney paid to Owners after the 15% deduction for Trainer and Jockey commission). Owners are subsidizing the Industry by $100 Ė $150 million"

https://www.racingnsw.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Strategic_plan_2004.pdf

In March 2017 V'Landys tells us that owners' losses have ballooned out to over $200 million = "Despite a number of strategies implemented by Racing NSW, the returns to owners, in the form of prizemoney and bonuses, still represents less than 50% of the cost of training and racing horses in NSW (training, spelling, veterinary and other costs). NSW racehorse owners as a group absorb annual losses in excess of $200 million, not including the cost of buying and breeding the horses.  This creates a downward spiral with insufficient prizemoney (owners' returns) producing larger owner losses, reducing the number and quality of horses racing and hence wagering turnover.  This reduces revenue to the NSW thoroughbred racing industry and so further reduces prizemoney and racehorse participation."

http://www.competitiontribunal.gov.au/documents/act2017/Statement%20of%20Peter%20V%27landys.pdf

So all the increases in betting taxes from 2004 to 2017 and corresponding increases in prizemoney only saw the losses of racehorse owners increase.  The new betting taxes from 2017 to 2019 and the increases in prizemoney will only bring about the same result = even bigger losses for owners in the long run.  The biggest winners from the increased betting taxes and increased prizemoney are not the owners but the big studs who sell the horses to the owners

Offline Antitab#

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« 2019-Nov-27, 09:14 PM Reply #445 »
Sime really smart racing savvy guys on this panel.

Whilst they are referring primarily to Victoria,the issues apply equally to all States.

https://www.racing.com/videos/2019-11-26/after-the-last--the-agenda--wagering--261119

Offline nemisis

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« 2019-Nov-28, 06:58 AM Reply #446 »
Savvy is not a word that should apply to  Mike Symons.

It's interesting that he is introduced as former chairman on the MRC and professional punter........most people would recognise him through his role at Aquanita.

There would be many, many reasons why people give up the punt and the goings on at Aquanita would be one of them......absolute cheating, which means punters are being ripped off!

Racing lets itself down badly by promoting people like Mike Symons.

Online PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Nov-28, 07:33 AM Reply #447 »
Savvy is not a word that should apply to  Mike Symons.

It's interesting that he is introduced as former chairman on the MRC and professional punter........most people would recognise him through his role at Aquanita.

There would be many, many reasons why people give up the punt and the goings on at Aquanita would be one of them......absolute cheating, which means punters are being ripped off!

Racing lets itself down badly by promoting people like Mike Symons.

How's the way he says that the spike in betting turnover is due to racing.com!!

And then he goes on to say the reason is that Sky reaches only 24% of the population compared to 98% for FTA.

Can someone quote me the ratings for racing.com? Last time I looked you cannot because they hide it from the public - we can only assume the reason being that it is so hideously low they don't want advertisers to see it.

https://oztam.com.au//documents/2019/OzTAM-20191110-A1MetTTVShrCons.pdf

He briefly mentions the real reason for the spike - competition among Corporates & TAB.

Talk about ingratiating yourself with the hosts   :lol:

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2019-Nov-28, 08:19 AM Reply #448 »
From a profitable punting perspective racing is rapidly spiraling downhill. I, like a lot of my racing acquaintances, have dropped off betting on racing, let alone attending meetings. Outside of the Spring carnival , at least in Melbourne, to go to the track has little to no appeal as it did in the past. Back in the days when we attended the betting ring was the focus of our attention, watching the bookies, following the betting movements added to the appeal of being on track, now with the gradual demise of the on-track bookie who would want to go on track as with the click of the mouse on my home computer I can gain access to all the odds .
I started punting full time in 1970 and over those intervening years I have seen the advantage of attending on track slowly but surely dissipate. Sure in those early years the off track punter was "food for the sideboard " for those on course who were able to exploit the mug money bet off course ( eg off track betting closed 10 minutes before the jump, it was illegal to broadcast on-track odds to off track punters etc ), however as those on-track advantages have been eaten away so has racing fallen away.

Today most millenniums would rather bet on their phones on an NBA game than the first at Caulfield.

As far as profitability in horse ownership I do not think much has really change, as a group, owners have never made a profit in horse ownership.

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« 2019-Nov-28, 08:37 AM Reply #449 »
Just re-posting the link to "Tax Parity" for those of you who pretend it doesn't exist   :lol:

https://www.justice.nsw.gov.au/Pages/media-news/media-releases/2015/tax-parity-make-nsw-premier-racing-state.aspx

This is the source of the latest round of prizemoney increases in NSW. Not wagering.


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