Racehorse TALK

Thoroughbred Racing Talk => Racing Talk => Topic started by: Steve M on 2012-May-08, 08:18 PM

Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Steve M on 2012-May-08, 08:18 PM
Story is he's passed away.

Awaiting confirmation.
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: fours on 2012-May-08, 08:45 PM
 :stop:

Vo, or an impersonator, has been posting regularly on another forum.

Fours
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Runway on 2012-May-08, 09:24 PM
yes - I think i saw from posts on racenet from a vo rogue and the style of comment did seem similar to the stuff vo posted here. Hope he's still with us
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Gintara on 2012-May-08, 10:02 PM
Seems to be all over twitter  :chin:
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Authorized on 2012-May-09, 12:10 AM
Wonderful horse. What a story.
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: MagiC~* on 2012-May-09, 07:26 AM
Was a great horse,

My father had the privileged of beating him in the Lord Mayors Cup in Brisbane, aboard Burglar of Bamph.

From memory, he stalked him, never letting him get away with his massive lead, sitting right on his tail.

In all fairness, Vo Rouge was coming off a pretty tough campaign down south, but still, a nice feather to have in your cap    emthup  

Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Runway on 2012-May-09, 09:28 AM
yes - I think i saw from posts on racenet from a vo rogue and the style of comment did seem similar to the stuff vo posted here. Hope he's still with us

I am a duffer - I thought you were referring to the forumite not the horse
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: makybediva on 2012-May-09, 12:37 PM
28 years old..what a tough old horse he was!  As much as racing needs it's "Black Caviars" and all "the next big things", it really needs horses like "Vo Rogue" to give that sense of adventure.
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: jimbler on 2012-May-09, 06:02 PM
Quote
Vo Rogue, who was never washed or shod, consistently out-ran champions Better loosen Up and Super Impose in an 83 start career.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/popular-front-running-gelding-vo-rogue-dies-at-28/story-fn67siys-1226350850624


Don't understand this bit?  Never washed?  Was there a reason for that?
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Steve M on 2012-May-09, 06:45 PM


1987 Alister Clark Stakes
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: JWesleyHarding on 2012-May-09, 08:29 PM
I am a duffer - I thought you were referring to the forumite not the horse

I thought the same thing. :embarrassed:
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: wily ole dog on 2012-May-09, 10:50 PM
Tragic stuff, I'm gutted. Absolute champion who deserved more recognition. At his top, nothing could live with him over 2000m
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Steve M on 2012-May-09, 10:51 PM
Australian racing bid farewell to one of the most popular horses in its history on Tuesday night. Brad Bishop pays tribute to the star Queenslander, Vo Rogue.
If you gathered a panel of experts and asked them to rank Australasia's best horses from the late 1980s and early 90s, Vo Rogue wouldn't be favourite to come out on top.

In fact, the Queensland front-runner might even battle for a spot in the top three.

Hall of Famers Better Loosen Up and Super Impose, fellow Cox Plate winners Bonecrusher, Rubiton and Our Poetic Prince, Japan Cup champ Horlicks and Kiwi star Rough Habit were among those Vo Rogue raced against in what was a golden era for weight-for-age racing, while Shaftsbury Avenue and Let's Elope came along not long after.

But if you took a popularity vote on the same era, Vo Rogue would be Black Caviar-type odds to win it.

His free-wheeling style of racing, which often saw him shoot 10 lengths clear of his rivals mid-race, combined with his association with battling trainer Vic Rail and little-known jockey Cyril Small, earned a cult following, especially in Melbourne, where he did his best work.

Hence, there was much sadness late on Tuesday when news came through that Vo Rogue had died, aged 28.

Small – who rode Vo Rogue in 68 of his 83 races, including 64 of his last 65 starts – was saddened by his passing but thrilled to have been part of the story.

“It is a sad time,” he said. “Melbourne people really did love him. I think the connection with Vic Rail and Vic's personality (played a part), plus the horse's great performances. They just love a good horse.”

There was little sign early that the son of Americain stallion Ivor Prince and Vow, who was foaled on 12 November 1983, would go on to win 26 races and $3,116,100 in prizemoney.

It took him five starts to win a race, a lowly two-year-old maiden at Eagle Farm on 25 June 1986, while he failed to salute at any of his next five starts. But he turned the corner with three wins in the space of four starts in the summer 1986/87, which prompted Rail to send him south to Melbourne.

Vo Rogue showed an immediate appreciation for left-handed racing, running third in The Debonair (1400m) at 40-1 before a third in the Group 1 Australian Guineas (1600m) won by Military Plume at 50-1.

He then failed behind Rubiton in the Group 3 Autumn Stakes (1400m) before producing the first sign of his star qualities in the Creswick Stakes at Flemington, then a 2000m event for three-year-olds.

He walked home by seven lengths, in a scorching time of 2:00.7, and backed it up with victory over established staying three-year-olds Cossack Warrior and Myocard five days later in the Group 2 Alister Clark Stakes (2040m) at Moonee Valley.

That was the first of 13 wins at Group 1 or Group 2 level in Melbourne. Four of those were at the highest level – the William Reid Stakes and Futurity Stakes in 1988 and back-to-back Australian Cups in 1989/90 – and of the remainder, five were Group 2 races that are now run at Group 1 level.

Vo Rogue owned the C.F. Orr Stakes (1400m) – which didn't become a Group 1 until 1993 – from 1988-90 and won back-to-back Turnbull Stakes (2000m) in 1988/89.

He also won both the Blamey Stakes (1600m) – then run before the Australian Cup – and St George Stakes (now Peter Young Stakes, 1800m) in 1988 and 1989.

He was runner-up in five Group 1s in Victoria, one of which is the race he is best remembered for. The 1988 Australian Cup was promoted as a match race between Vo Rogue and Bonecrusher and while Vo Rogue had Bonecrusher's measure, he was unable to withstand the powerful finish of 125-1 shot Dandy Andy.

Vo Rogue won further Group 1s in the 1988 Winfield Stakes (1800m) in Perth and the 1989 George Main Stakes (1600m) – the only time he ran a place in eight starts in Sydney – but it was his second Australian Cup that Small remembers most fondly.

After looking as good as ever in the Orr Stakes, he then ran third as a 4/7 favourite in the Blamey Stakes and was controversially beaten by King's High on protest in the St George Stakes.

But he bounced back to beat possibly the greatest Australian Cup field of the past 25 years. Better Loosen Up ran second and Super Impose third with Stylish Century and The Phantom on the placegetters heels.

Vo Rogue fans who maintained the faith were rewarded with odds of 12-1 – his longest-ever winning price.

“I'd say my best memory would be his last Australia Cup,” Small said. “A lot of the so called experts thought he was over the hill and he proved them wrong.”

Vo Rogue didn't win another race in 16 starts – his best effort a second to Better Loosen Up in the 1991 Australian Cup – and Rail died after contracting the Hendra virus, around three years after his final start in 20 May 1991.

Small, who only last week had his first ride in Victoria in years when he came out of retirement to ride at Warrnambool, is now the only surviving member of the famous trio but their story will live on forever.

Farewell Vo Rogue


http://www.racingvictoria.net.au/news/RVL/n_Vale_Vo_Rogue.aspx
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: wily ole dog on 2012-May-09, 11:02 PM
I gave the great horse a cuddle and shared a beer with Vic in his stall after the George main bak in 88. It was hours after the last race and in darkness but there was Vic with his boy :love:
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: worldisavampire on 2012-May-10, 12:58 AM
I gave the great horse a cuddle and shared a beer with Vic in his stall after the George main bak in 88. It was hours after the last race and in darkness but there was Vic with his boy :love:

  emthup   emthup
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: arthur on 2012-May-10, 08:52 AM

Had the good fortune to back VR at E/ Farm in its maiden win

Asked a bookie mate for a tip and was told to back VR if there was a penny for him because it had been beating Rode Rouge(??) in trackwork

I didn't wait to see 'the money' as the 16-1 looked OK to me . . Then the money & came in to 5-1 but if I remember rightly it got back out to 8-1

Bart mentioned the 'huge plunge' in today's C-M but the crowd was pretty small so plonk may not have been as big as it seemed

Think it was the 'Hugh Courtney Maiden' . . HC was a man highly esteemed in rugby union circles

PS Still have the racebook from that day but it is in a 'safe place' (??)  :confused1: . . if I can find it in time will try to post it
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: dubbledee on 2012-May-10, 09:01 AM
Yes, Arthur.  I remember the day as well as I remember this morning's breakfast.

A colleague from work accompanied me to the races that day.  She wasn't a total novice, but certainly wasn't a keen punter.  I think it might have been Race 2.  I saw my friend before the race and I asked what she'd backed.  "Vo Rogue, I liked its name".  I think she backed it at around 7/1.

I don't have recollection of there being any "plunge".   :no:
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: arthur on 2012-May-10, 09:45 AM
Aldo
What a horse. I met his owner at EF one day when he was a yearling. froggy said he was a scrawny thing but Vic thought he might be alright later on. froggy had a pair of stubby shorts on, a Jackie Howe singlet and a pair of thongs. I remember his great quote after the horse lost the St George on protest - as you slide down the bannister of life you're bound to get a splinter or 2 in the ass along the way. He made sure the horse was looked after in his old age. When people ask me why I love racing so much I tell them the Vo Rogue story (pinched from another site)

I can remember that day too . . but seem to remember the connexion on Sky as saying: "We've gone from 'wine, women, and song . . to rum, bum and bagpipes!"

Maybe he said both . . and no doubt a few more  :rant:  unprintable things as well 

Also thought that VR had changed hands
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Steve M on 2012-May-10, 01:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S9acJ_gkLU&feature=youtu.be
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: wily ole dog on 2019-May-14, 07:24 PM
It’s taken 30 years but he’s finally in the hall of fame :clap2:
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: firezuki on 2019-May-15, 05:19 PM
And rightfully so.  What a great horse. 
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Dave on 2019-May-16, 05:32 PM
Very good horse in an era of very good horses, the difference between Vo and champs like Black Caviar and Winx is a thing called "Romance of the Turf" Vo had it and they never could.....not a lot of doubt they were endowed with more ability than Vo.....but they were owned by Multi's and Trained by big name "numbers" trainers.........Hollywood has understood what puts Bums on seats since Hollywood began......and it ain't just getting the best actors and the best Writers, you could put Olivier on playing Shakespeare in one theatre and right alongside in another theatre Put Stallone playing Rambo and see who puts the most bums on seats??
Champion horses are great but very rare.....Romance of the Turf is everywhere and in abundance but it is left sitting on the shelf.......Movies need 2 things to be a blockbuster at the Box Office.....Heroes and Romance!!....Black Caviar and Winx were neither of them,,,,,,racing needs to be leveled up so everyone has an opportunity to share in the success.....in it's present state Waller will keep on growing and pushing everyone else out
We need more Vo Rogue's/Vic rails and Takeover Target/Joe Janiaks......but if they need a Champion to succeed that makes it highly unlikely if not impossible that it will happen often enough to save Racing from going down the gurgler like it has every where else on the Planet (except for a few Asian countries)
Racing at present is All about Gambling/Breeding, we need it to become about entertainment again....and about the wonderful Thoroughbred

P.S. I love Black Caviar and Winx and appreciate them for their sheer untapped ability........not so much love for their p#*s weak owners!
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: sobig on 2019-May-16, 05:47 PM
Nor disputing Vo Rogue's career but he did not attract the crowds that Winx did.
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: JWesleyHarding on 2019-May-16, 05:57 PM
What's this about comparing Vo to Winx?

Get off the grass!!!!

As good as he was I'm not sure whether he should be compared to Super Impose. :chin:
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: gunbower on 2019-May-16, 08:32 PM
JWH, watch some You Tube videos . When the Vo was in his prime , Super was generally chasing him home. Of course that was also after the Vo had made the pace in the race and afforded Super and Co a lovely trail into the race.
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: wily ole dog on 2019-May-16, 09:01 PM
Gun! JWH is just throwing out the old fishing line  :lol:

 :fishing: :fishing: :fishing: :fishing:

We all know Super couldn’t go with Vo. From memory it was 1 win to Super in 11 races against the Rogue. All group races so no excuses

Poor old Super is like comparing the roosters to the Rabbitohs.....they are forever in our shadow
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: gunbower on 2019-May-16, 09:18 PM
Wily,
       I took the bait . But I know you need to re-inforce these things in case the modern generation try to re write history.
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: wily ole dog on 2019-May-16, 09:28 PM
  :lol:  Geoffrey will love being called the modern generation  :lol:
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: gunbower on 2019-May-16, 10:47 PM
Believe me , I wasn't referring to him. I was just concerned that younger followers might take on board his warped view of history.
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Jeunes on 2019-May-16, 11:09 PM
I watched them race as a youngish man and I think Super was underrated at times when compared to Bluey, Vo Rogue, Let’s Elope and even Shaftesbury Avenue.

Super won the big Randwick Mile 4 times, most competitive Cox Plate ever and  was even placed in the Cup.

Vo Rogue has the wood on him big time in Melb especially in the Autumn. The Rogue was nowhere as good as that in Sydney though. Unlike Super he ducked Sydney at times.

Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: JWesleyHarding on 2019-May-17, 11:36 AM
I'm not big on saying this champ is better than that. In this case both Vo and Super were wonderful horses.

But just in case Gun's "younger generation" start to think the Vo was so superior to Super I'll post these which are both horses' Group One victories

Now I'm no expert but just on the stature of these races Super wins decisively in my vey humble opinion.

Vo         
1989   VRC Australian Cup      G1
1990   VRC Australian Cup      G1
1988   MVRC William Reid Stakes      G1
1988   VATC Futurity Stakes      G1
1988   WATC Winfield Stakes      G1
1989   AJC George Main Stakes      G1
         
         
Super         
1992   MVRC WS Cox Plate      G1
1990   AJC Doncaster Handicap      G1
1991   AJC Doncaster Handicap      G1
1990   AJC Epsom Handicap      G1
1991   AJC Epsom Handicap      G1
1991   AJC Chipping Norton Stakes      G1
1992   AJC Chipping Norton Stakes      G1
1991   STC Ranvet Stakes      G1
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: wily ole dog on 2019-May-17, 12:25 PM
I’ve got zero doubt that Supers resume reads better but he went to those races rather than take on Vo. Even Freedman admitted that.

He was right to do so considering only 1 win in 11 battles
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: pwa54 on 2019-May-17, 03:07 PM
Both champions, but I've always thought of Super Impose reaching his peak post-Vo Rogue.

Super won his first G1 (his first Doncaster) after Vo Rogue had his final race win.  I'm not sure Freedman would have been too worried about the 7yo Vo Rogue.



Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: wily ole dog on 2019-May-17, 05:58 PM
Both champions, but I've always thought of Super Impose reaching his peak post-Vo Rogue.

Super won his first G1 (his first Doncaster) after Vo Rogue had his final race win.  I'm not sure Freedman would have been too worried about the 7yo Vo Rogue.

Cant agree with that mate. Super was being beaten pointlessly by Vo as a 4 & 5yo. I dont think Super improved from that stage. He chased the Rogues shadow in the 1990 Oz Cup and bear in mind Super last raced in 1992.
Frankly, he was at his best as a 5yo and wasnt as good
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: JWesleyHarding on 2019-May-17, 06:13 PM
Wily

Look at the lists above.

Whose G1 victories are the most impressive?
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: gunbower on 2019-May-17, 07:07 PM
Of course they were both wonderful horses and it is always difficult to compare horses- except in this case. The Vo clearly had the wood on Super when they clashed
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Jeunes on 2019-May-17, 07:14 PM
Vo Rogue won more in Victoria than anywhere else for G1s. Super had his greatest moments in Sydney bar his Cox Plate and MC runs.

Vo was beaten constantly in Sydney and never could repeat his form while Super did better in Melb than Vo did in Sydney. Super never ducked a contest while Vo did at times.

They are both good horses. Better Loosen up was better than them both at his peak.
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: gunbower on 2019-May-17, 07:58 PM
Who was better where ; who was better at what time of the year; who was better at high tide ete, etc doesn't really matter here. The facts are that they competed DIRECTLY against one another and the Vo had his measure. They simply are facts.
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: wily ole dog on 2019-May-17, 08:01 PM
Who was better where ; who was better at what time of the year; who was better at high tide ete, etc doesn't really matter here. The facts are that they competed DIRECTLY against one another and the Vo had his measure. They simply are facts.

Exactly Gun.
I play you 11 times in a game of tennis and only win once, I’d suggest you’re better than me ;)
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Jeunes on 2019-May-17, 08:07 PM
So based on your logic, Nadal is better than Federer or First Seal is better than Winx.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federer–Nadal_rivalry
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: wily ole dog on 2019-May-17, 08:16 PM
No
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: fours on 2019-May-17, 08:47 PM
Hmmmm,

Some tracks in Melbourne really do leaders big favours. Something the over seas jockeys still don't realize for the MC.

Vo shone there for this reason. Was simply outstanding in some races - so far ahead mid race and simply did not come back to them with it.

Fours
ps Super needed them to come back to him.
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Jeunes on 2019-May-17, 08:52 PM
No

Why? I am following your logic.

That generation of horses over the 2-3 years are amongst my favourite group of horses as a group.

Vo, Super, Lets Elope, Better Loosen Up, Sydeston, Shaftesbury Avenue, Naturalism, Veandercross etc made a vintage 3-4 years.
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: gunbower on 2019-May-17, 09:10 PM

Exactly Gun.
I play you 11 times in a game of tennis and only win once, I’d suggest you’re better than me ;)

Gee Wily , if you play me 11 times and win once you must be a bloody awful tennis player
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: wily ole dog on 2019-May-18, 07:35 AM
My glory days are well gone Gun. Knees like egg shells. I’d be easy pickings  :lol:


Now, doubles where I don’t have to move may be a different story  :lol:
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Dave on 2019-May-18, 09:27 PM
fours I must take umbrage at your assessment of Super Impose, he didn't need them to "come back to him" he needed pressure races, WFA races weren't his cup of tea as a rule, Shaftesbury Ave usually beat Super at WFA but Super was Superior in a Handicap cos it was pressure from start to finish, when you are a get back horse in WFA races it is hard to catch a front runner like Vo, very hard to get a cart into the race, If they met in a Big Handicap my money would be on Super every time, regardless of the weight,
Super one the Cox Plate but Vo never could cos the Cox Plate is run like a big Randwick Handicap, it's a pressure all the way type of race,
Vo stuck to his strengths, he actually did what Winx/Black Caviar did, they stayed in their comfort zone,
Super wasn't afraid of any one or anything, he ran in the big randwick miles giving weight and a start to the rest of the field, he ran in Melbourne Cups, he ran in Cox Plates!

Vo/Winx and BC were very good but in my opinion they weren't heroes, Super was a hero, he went "above and beyond" that is what Heroes do, he accepted any Challenge and win lose or Draw he was in for the fight....and I loved him for it
He came from Last to win 4 big Randwick Miles......are you saying 80 odd horses "came back to him"? Would your money be on Vo to do that?
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: fours on 2019-May-18, 10:06 PM
Dave,

We are dealing in degrees of relativity here. There is truth in what each of us have said.

If a horses average performance is charachterised as a limp elastic band then various race charchteristics can stretch it to various degrees at different parts of the race and influence its overall race finish time. Vo 's mid race surge was unusual in that compared to most horses that tried it he simply did not get snapped back to the field. These were not sprint races.

Freemason beating Northerly by going very early is a lesser degree example f what Vo could do; it took away Northerlies late surge and reduced him to a grinder - like Freemason in that race. It was unusual - Vo is markedly more unusual.

Fours
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Dave on 2019-May-19, 11:04 AM
That is exactly what I said, they had different strengths and weaknesses.......but you seem to have missed my point.........as far as their one on one meetings being heavily in Vo's favour as some sort of proof of his superiority......Super went to Vo's "home ground" i.e. his WFA advantage when they met, Vo was never game enough to come to Super's home ground (big fast run handicaps) and meet him where Vo did not have an advantage..........it is like a race between Usain Bolt Wilson Kipsan over 100 yards Proves Bolt was the better athlete
At least Super ran in the races that suited Vo......Super was the Hero, he never ran from a fight, when the going got tough, he got tougher, 4 big miles, placed in a Melbourne Cup and won a Cox Plate, Good as Vo was his record pales in comparison......all of his runs were almost in identical races.........Vo was a great horse but he needed a stacked deck or he wouldn't play!.....Racing needs more Supers!
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Jeunes on 2019-May-19, 11:46 AM
Dave, agree with you.

Super was never protected as much as Vo. If you look at Vo’s resume, there were never any regular races in Sydney or handicaps.

Super won 4 Randwick and I was lucky to see one but I was quite young so history was wasted on me as I was cursing my bet.

I liked Vo a lot as did many but Super was appreciated more after he started to win his miles. His wfa form was crap at time as the sit and sprint tactics never favoured him.

Bluey was better than them especially some of his triumphs in the Cox, Japan Cup etc. However another one where Sydney form was not great.

Majority of that horses in that generation seemed to grow a leg in Melbourne or missed Sydney due to injury or avoided Sydney.
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Dave on 2019-May-19, 12:13 PM
I must admit I may also be a little biased, I remember being at Randwick, I think it was for his 3rd big mile, I was down about $3000 when Supers big race came up, I had $300 and some change left........I needed to back something that was at least $12, that wiped out all the favs, they were no good to me and there was Super sitting on $14........it was a No brainer......$300 @ $14, on super and he delivered in spades!
I went from minus $3,000 to winning $900 then I think I backed another winner or 2 after that, went from a potential disaster to a great day.........it may have influenced my opinion of him.....but I doubt it
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: wily ole dog on 2019-May-19, 02:24 PM
Its nice for great horses to have handicapped wins on their resume  but WFA is the true test.
Equal weights at peak distances against the best
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: Authorized on 2019-May-21, 07:46 PM
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: wily ole dog on 2019-May-21, 08:19 PM
 :clap2: :clap2:
Title: Vo Rogue
Post by: gunbower on 2019-May-21, 08:34 PM
Terrific story from Shane. The thing I think people sometimes forget with the Vo was the sheer excitement he brought to Racing. Once the gates crashed back it was game on. And don't forget he was adaptable enough to win At WFA over 1200 and 1400 metres.