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Offline wily ole dog

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« 2019-May-16, 09:01 PM Reply #25 »
Gun! JWH is just throwing out the old fishing line  :lol:

 :fishing: :fishing: :fishing: :fishing:

We all know Super couldnít go with Vo. From memory it was 1 win to Super in 11 races against the Rogue. All group races so no excuses

Poor old Super is like comparing the roosters to the Rabbitohs.....they are forever in our shadow

Offline gunbower

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« 2019-May-16, 09:18 PM Reply #26 »
Wily,
       I took the bait . But I know you need to re-inforce these things in case the modern generation try to re write history.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2019-May-16, 09:28 PM Reply #27 »
  :lol:  Geoffrey will love being called the modern generation  :lol:
« Last Edit: 2019-May-17, 07:20 AM by wily ole dog »

Offline gunbower

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« 2019-May-16, 10:47 PM Reply #28 »
Believe me , I wasn't referring to him. I was just concerned that younger followers might take on board his warped view of history.

Offline Jeunes

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« 2019-May-16, 11:09 PM Reply #29 »
I watched them race as a youngish man and I think Super was underrated at times when compared to Bluey, Vo Rogue, Letís Elope and even Shaftesbury Avenue.

Super won the big Randwick Mile 4 times, most competitive Cox Plate ever and  was even placed in the Cup.

Vo Rogue has the wood on him big time in Melb especially in the Autumn. The Rogue was nowhere as good as that in Sydney though. Unlike Super he ducked Sydney at times.


Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2019-May-17, 11:36 AM Reply #30 »
I'm not big on saying this champ is better than that. In this case both Vo and Super were wonderful horses.

But just in case Gun's "younger generation" start to think the Vo was so superior to Super I'll post these which are both horses' Group One victories

Now I'm no expert but just on the stature of these races Super wins decisively in my vey humble opinion.

Vo         
1989   VRC Australian Cup      G1
1990   VRC Australian Cup      G1
1988   MVRC William Reid Stakes      G1
1988   VATC Futurity Stakes      G1
1988   WATC Winfield Stakes      G1
1989   AJC George Main Stakes      G1
         
         
Super         
1992   MVRC WS Cox Plate      G1
1990   AJC Doncaster Handicap      G1
1991   AJC Doncaster Handicap      G1
1990   AJC Epsom Handicap      G1
1991   AJC Epsom Handicap      G1
1991   AJC Chipping Norton Stakes      G1
1992   AJC Chipping Norton Stakes      G1
1991   STC Ranvet Stakes      G1

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2019-May-17, 12:25 PM Reply #31 »
Iíve got zero doubt that Supers resume reads better but he went to those races rather than take on Vo. Even Freedman admitted that.

He was right to do so considering only 1 win in 11 battles

Online pwa54

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« 2019-May-17, 03:07 PM Reply #32 »
Both champions, but I've always thought of Super Impose reaching his peak post-Vo Rogue.

Super won his first G1 (his first Doncaster) after Vo Rogue had his final race win.  I'm not sure Freedman would have been too worried about the 7yo Vo Rogue.




Offline wily ole dog

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« 2019-May-17, 05:58 PM Reply #33 »
Both champions, but I've always thought of Super Impose reaching his peak post-Vo Rogue.

Super won his first G1 (his first Doncaster) after Vo Rogue had his final race win.  I'm not sure Freedman would have been too worried about the 7yo Vo Rogue.

Cant agree with that mate. Super was being beaten pointlessly by Vo as a 4 & 5yo. I dont think Super improved from that stage. He chased the Rogues shadow in the 1990 Oz Cup and bear in mind Super last raced in 1992.
Frankly, he was at his best as a 5yo and wasnt as good

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2019-May-17, 06:13 PM Reply #34 »
Wily

Look at the lists above.

Whose G1 victories are the most impressive?

Offline gunbower

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« 2019-May-17, 07:07 PM Reply #35 »
Of course they were both wonderful horses and it is always difficult to compare horses- except in this case. The Vo clearly had the wood on Super when they clashed

Offline Jeunes

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« 2019-May-17, 07:14 PM Reply #36 »
Vo Rogue won more in Victoria than anywhere else for G1s. Super had his greatest moments in Sydney bar his Cox Plate and MC runs.

Vo was beaten constantly in Sydney and never could repeat his form while Super did better in Melb than Vo did in Sydney. Super never ducked a contest while Vo did at times.

They are both good horses. Better Loosen up was better than them both at his peak.

Offline gunbower

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« 2019-May-17, 07:58 PM Reply #37 »
Who was better where ; who was better at what time of the year; who was better at high tide ete, etc doesn't really matter here. The facts are that they competed DIRECTLY against one another and the Vo had his measure. They simply are facts.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2019-May-17, 08:01 PM Reply #38 »
Who was better where ; who was better at what time of the year; who was better at high tide ete, etc doesn't really matter here. The facts are that they competed DIRECTLY against one another and the Vo had his measure. They simply are facts.

Exactly Gun.
I play you 11 times in a game of tennis and only win once, Iíd suggest youíre better than me ;)

Offline Jeunes

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« 2019-May-17, 08:07 PM Reply #39 »
So based on your logic, Nadal is better than Federer or First Seal is better than Winx.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedererĖNadal_rivalry

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2019-May-17, 08:16 PM Reply #40 »
No

Offline fours

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« 2019-May-17, 08:47 PM Reply #41 »
Hmmmm,

Some tracks in Melbourne really do leaders big favours. Something the over seas jockeys still don't realize for the MC.

Vo shone there for this reason. Was simply outstanding in some races - so far ahead mid race and simply did not come back to them with it.

Fours
ps Super needed them to come back to him.

Offline Jeunes

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« 2019-May-17, 08:52 PM Reply #42 »
No

Why? I am following your logic.

That generation of horses over the 2-3 years are amongst my favourite group of horses as a group.

Vo, Super, Lets Elope, Better Loosen Up, Sydeston, Shaftesbury Avenue, Naturalism, Veandercross etc made a vintage 3-4 years.

Offline gunbower

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« 2019-May-17, 09:10 PM Reply #43 »

Exactly Gun.
I play you 11 times in a game of tennis and only win once, Iíd suggest youíre better than me ;)

Gee Wily , if you play me 11 times and win once you must be a bloody awful tennis player

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2019-May-18, 07:35 AM Reply #44 »
My glory days are well gone Gun. Knees like egg shells. Iíd be easy pickings  :lol:


Now, doubles where I donít have to move may be a different story  :lol:

Offline Dave

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« 2019-May-18, 09:27 PM Reply #45 »
fours I must take umbrage at your assessment of Super Impose, he didn't need them to "come back to him" he needed pressure races, WFA races weren't his cup of tea as a rule, Shaftesbury Ave usually beat Super at WFA but Super was Superior in a Handicap cos it was pressure from start to finish, when you are a get back horse in WFA races it is hard to catch a front runner like Vo, very hard to get a cart into the race, If they met in a Big Handicap my money would be on Super every time, regardless of the weight,
Super one the Cox Plate but Vo never could cos the Cox Plate is run like a big Randwick Handicap, it's a pressure all the way type of race,
Vo stuck to his strengths, he actually did what Winx/Black Caviar did, they stayed in their comfort zone,
Super wasn't afraid of any one or anything, he ran in the big randwick miles giving weight and a start to the rest of the field, he ran in Melbourne Cups, he ran in Cox Plates!

Vo/Winx and BC were very good but in my opinion they weren't heroes, Super was a hero, he went "above and beyond" that is what Heroes do, he accepted any Challenge and win lose or Draw he was in for the fight....and I loved him for it
He came from Last to win 4 big Randwick Miles......are you saying 80 odd horses "came back to him"? Would your money be on Vo to do that?

Offline fours

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« 2019-May-18, 10:06 PM Reply #46 »
Dave,

We are dealing in degrees of relativity here. There is truth in what each of us have said.

If a horses average performance is charachterised as a limp elastic band then various race charchteristics can stretch it to various degrees at different parts of the race and influence its overall race finish time. Vo 's mid race surge was unusual in that compared to most horses that tried it he simply did not get snapped back to the field. These were not sprint races.

Freemason beating Northerly by going very early is a lesser degree example f what Vo could do; it took away Northerlies late surge and reduced him to a grinder - like Freemason in that race. It was unusual - Vo is markedly more unusual.

Fours

Offline Dave

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« 2019-May-19, 11:04 AM Reply #47 »
That is exactly what I said, they had different strengths and weaknesses.......but you seem to have missed my point.........as far as their one on one meetings being heavily in Vo's favour as some sort of proof of his superiority......Super went to Vo's "home ground" i.e. his WFA advantage when they met, Vo was never game enough to come to Super's home ground (big fast run handicaps) and meet him where Vo did not have an advantage..........it is like a race between Usain Bolt Wilson Kipsan over 100 yards Proves Bolt was the better athlete
At least Super ran in the races that suited Vo......Super was the Hero, he never ran from a fight, when the going got tough, he got tougher, 4 big miles, placed in a Melbourne Cup and won a Cox Plate, Good as Vo was his record pales in comparison......all of his runs were almost in identical races.........Vo was a great horse but he needed a stacked deck or he wouldn't play!.....Racing needs more Supers!

Offline Jeunes

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« 2019-May-19, 11:46 AM Reply #48 »
Dave, agree with you.

Super was never protected as much as Vo. If you look at Voís resume, there were never any regular races in Sydney or handicaps.

Super won 4 Randwick and I was lucky to see one but I was quite young so history was wasted on me as I was cursing my bet.

I liked Vo a lot as did many but Super was appreciated more after he started to win his miles. His wfa form was crap at time as the sit and sprint tactics never favoured him.

Bluey was better than them especially some of his triumphs in the Cox, Japan Cup etc. However another one where Sydney form was not great.

Majority of that horses in that generation seemed to grow a leg in Melbourne or missed Sydney due to injury or avoided Sydney.

Offline Dave

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« 2019-May-19, 12:13 PM Reply #49 »
I must admit I may also be a little biased, I remember being at Randwick, I think it was for his 3rd big mile, I was down about $3000 when Supers big race came up, I had $300 and some change left........I needed to back something that was at least $12, that wiped out all the favs, they were no good to me and there was Super sitting on $14........it was a No brainer......$300 @ $14, on super and he delivered in spades!
I went from minus $3,000 to winning $900 then I think I backed another winner or 2 after that, went from a potential disaster to a great day.........it may have influenced my opinion of him.....but I doubt it


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