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Winx Group 1 record isn't the real record - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK

Author Topic: Winx Group 1 record isn't the real record  (Read 8218 times)

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Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Apr-29, 04:46 PM Reply #25 »
Interesting article in The Tele regarding G1 records etc and how they are going to be revised.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/superracing/prince-harry-and-meghan-markle-could-add-royal-randwick-visit-to-sydney-itinerary/news-story/e627ab318a59003c6bbcefc0fbed71ef

So they are going to get Gary Crispe to revise them  :what:

Crispe's so called Timeform ratings are his own opinion - nothing else. It is an opinion that is often open to questions e.g. Weekend Hussler beating Racing To Win in the Ryder was Crispe's highest rated ever race at the time.

No doubt about it. It pays to be a "media darling". Is the Barry O'Farrell from the ARB the one and the same as the failed NSW Premier who was forced to resign over receiving a bottle of Grange as a present?

And as for the treatment of George Moore

It had been widely believed Moore had won 119 Group 1 races in this country but a study of his major race wins shows that races like the Chipping Norton Stakes, QTC Sires Produce Stakes and Flight Stakes did not hold Group 1 status when the graded race classification system was introduced in 1979.

This reduces Mooreís tally of Group 1 wins to 104. He is the only other Australian jockey to have ridden more than a century of major race winners. The revised list has Jim Cassidy on 98, Roy Higgins 90 and Shane Dye 89.


So they are reducing Moore's tally because his wins in the 3 races predated 1979 and when the grading system was introduced they were Group 2 races at the time.

But who is to say these races were not potentially Group 1 at some point pre 1979? The QTC Sires was Group 2, then changed to Group 1, then changed back to Group 2. Some years it was won by horses like Tulloch and Luskin Star.

Once again, we will have to rely on a media darling's opinion. Just the sort of thing that makes our world go around these days.

Why don't they get The Project or someone else in mainstream media to sort it out like they do everything else.  :stop:

Offline timw

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« 2018-Apr-30, 05:34 PM Reply #26 »
What is the problem the Australian Racing Board is hoping to solve.  Eg if we are looking to count notional G1 wins of Jockeys then it seems to me we have to include overseas rides or will the ARB be selective about that. Is Luke Nolen's UK win in or out.? If it's in then it seems to me we will need to look at all the others that have ventured overseas to ride.  If a New Zealand jockey comes to Australia to ride, as many have done, do we only include notional or actual Australian G1 wins.   

Just on the earlier post about successive Group 1 wins (notional or actual) my count of the leaders is as follows:

No. of consecutive G1 wins      
8   BLACK CAVIAR (AUS) 2006   Starts 18-25  - incl. Ascot Golden Jubilee Stakes at start 22
6   BLACK CAVIAR (AUS) 2006   Starts 8 to 13 run ended - next start a Group 2 race
6   WINX (AUS) 2011   as at 14 April 2018 unfinished
5   TULLOCH (NZ) 1954   
5   APACHE CAT (AUS) 2002   
4   TRANQUIL STAR (AUS) 1937   
4   RISING FAST (NZ) 1949   
4   ANALIE (NZ) 1969   
4   KINGSTON TOWN (AUS) 1976   
4   OCTAGONAL (NZ) 1992   
4   SUNLINE (NZ) 1995   
4   WEEKEND HUSSLER (AUS) 2004   
4   SO YOU THINK (NZ) 2006    
4   Ocean Park (NZ) 2008   

Of course Winx wouldn't have got to 6 (unfinished) if Bowman hadn't fallen off another horse and injured himself so stuffing up the plan. 

IMO G1's aren't the only point of reference by which a horses career should be measured and I don't have the answer.  For example Red Anchor is a favourite of mine but his career was stopped short by injury.  Because of that he will always be a 'couldabeen'.     

Cheers

Online JWesleyHarding

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« 2018-Apr-30, 06:06 PM Reply #27 »
Has anybody worked out which horse in Australia has the greatest winning streak of group 1 races including retrospectively and not interrupted by a win in a lower graded race ?


Silly question.


 

Offline timw

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« 2018-May-01, 04:58 AM Reply #28 »
Grade 1 consecutive wins by horses racing in North America since the introduction of the grading system.         
7 of them ran mainly or solely in fillies and mares races.         
No   Name   Start nos.   Comment
9   Zenyatta (USA) 2004   11-19.   
6   Cigar (USA) 1990   22-27.   
6   Invasor (ARG) 2002   3-8.   1st 3 in Uruguay and next 3 in USA
5   Seattle Slew (USA) 1974   5-9.   
5   Affirmed (USA) 1975   12-16.   
5   Spectacular Bid (USA) 1976   12-16.   
5   Bayakoa (ARG) 1984   24-28   all in USA
5   Easy Goer (USA) 1986   12-16.   
5   Open Mind (USA) 1986   10-14.   
5   Paseana (ARG) 1987   12-16.   all in USA
5   Go For Wand (USA) 1987   8-12.   broke down at next and last start
5   Skip Away (USA) 1993   28-32.   
5   Stardom Bound (USA) 2006   3-7.   
5   Rachel Alexandra (USA) 2006   10-14.   
5   Wise Dan (USA) 2007   18-22.   
5   American Pharoah (USA) 2012   5 - 9.   
5   Gun Runner (USA) 2013   15-19.   retired

There is at least one US horse that ran up a sequence of 5 notional or retrospective G1 wins but that can also wait for another day.  American racing is more varied than Australia so the chances of finding many retrospective streaks of 5+ in the pre Grade 1 will be rare  I think.

PS there might be one or two other Aussies that had 4 consecutive G1 wins - Luskin Star comes to mind as a possible.  PS I have nothing on Asia or Europe but I could think of a few that might have run up a picket fence of G1 wins

Online pwa54

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« 2018-May-01, 04:26 PM Reply #29 »
Quote
Crispe's so called Timeform ratings are his own opinion - nothing else

Absolutely, PP. Particularly on historical ratings, the press uncritically quotes his guesses such as Todman at 136.

Are they going to consider creating retrospective Group 1s? That would be the only fair means of judging jockeys, trainers and horses, otherwise only records from 1979 are relevant.Carbine won 15 very high quality races in succession. Arguably, they would all have had G1 status in 1890-91 if the group pattern existed then! As it is, Carbine has only 6 G1s. The Champion Stakes was the most important race in Australia for a large part of the late 19th century but a victory like that of Carbine in that race doesn't count.   

Quote
What is the problem the Australian Racing Board is hoping to solve.  Eg if we are looking to count notional G1 wins of Jockeys then it seems to me we have to include overseas rides or will the ARB be selective about that. Is Luke Nolen's UK win in or out.? If it's in then it seems to me we will need to look at all the others that have ventured overseas to ride.  If a New Zealand jockey comes to Australia to ride, as many have done, do we only include notional or actual Australian G1 wins.   

Just on the earlier post about successive Group 1 wins (notional or actual) my count of the leaders is as follows:

No. of consecutive G1 wins     
8   BLACK CAVIAR (AUS) 2006   Starts 18-25  - incl. Ascot Golden Jubilee Stakes at start 22
6   BLACK CAVIAR (AUS) 2006   Starts 8 to 13 run ended - next start a Group 2 race
6   WINX (AUS) 2011   as at 14 April 2018 unfinished
5   TULLOCH (NZ) 1954   
5   APACHE CAT (AUS) 2002   
4   TRANQUIL STAR (AUS) 1937   
4   RISING FAST (NZ) 1949

It is the proverbial "can of worms" Tim. It is really difficult to know what they will do and how much credibility their decisions will have.

Just on the table, Rising Fast has 5. Gary Crispe didn't retrospectively rate him but his run of 7 wins (Turnbull Stakes, Caulfield Stakes, Caulfield Cup, Cox Plate, MacKinnon, Melbourne Cup, Fisher Plate) in the spring of 1954 would put him amongst the greats let alone his other wins. (His career record on this site has him carrying 9st 1lb in the 1955 Caulfield Cup, it was 9st 10lb and has him with 8st 1lb in 1954 when it was 8st 10lb).

Offline timw

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« 2022-Jun-15, 01:45 PM Reply #30 »
After Nature Strip's slashing win at Ascot I updated my ANZ table of leading G1 winners (including retrospective). Minimum 8 G1 wins. FYI, Cheers

Horse    G1 wins

WINX (AUS) 2011      25
      
AJAX (AUS) 1934      17
      
TULLOCH (NZ) 1954      16
      
BLACK CAVIAR (AUS) 2006      15
      
KINGSTON TOWN (AUS) 1976      14
MELODY BELLE (NZ) 2014      14
TIE THE KNOT (AUS) 1994      13
SUNLINE (NZ) 1995      13
      
WAKEFUL (AUS) 1896      11
PHAR LAP (NZ) 1926      11
SKY HIGH (AUS) 1957      11
WENONA GIRL (AUS) 1957      11
MANIKATO (AUS) 1975      11
ROUGH HABIT (NZ) 1986      11
LONHRO (AUS) 1998      11
VERRY ELLEGANT (NZ) 2015      11
      
AMOUNIS (AUS) 1922      10
BEAU VITE (NZ) 1936      10
OCTAGONAL (NZ) 1992      10
SO YOU THINK (NZ) 2006       10
MUFHASA (NZ) 2004 ('King Mufhasa' in AUS)      10
      
EURYTHMIC (AUS) 1916      9.5
      
CARBINE (NZ) 1885      9
HALL MARK (AUS) 1930      9
YOUNG IDEA (AUS) 1932      9
AQUANITA (AUS) 1956      9
TOBIN BRONZE (AUS) 1962      9
GUNSYND (AUS) 1967      9
BONECRUSHER (NZ) 1982      9
NORTHERLY (AUS) 1996      9
NATURE STRIP (AUS) 2014      9
AVANTAGE (AUS) 2015      9
      
TIM WHIFFLER (AUS) 1862      8
CHESTER (AUS) 1874      8
GLADSOME (NZ) 1900      8
POSEIDON (AUS) 1903      8
MALT KING (AUS) 1906      8
PETER PAN (AUS) 1929      8
HIGH CASTE (NZ) 1936      8
TIME AND TIDE (AUS) 1960      8
SUPER IMPOSE (NZ) 1984      8
BETTER LOOSEN UP (AUS) 1985      8
SCHILLACI (AUS) 1988      8
VEANDERCROSS (NZ) 1988      8
MAHOGANY (AUS) 1990      8
INTERGAZE (AUS) 1993      8
TAKEOVER TARGET (AUS) 1999      8
APACHE CAT (AUS) 2002      8
MORE JOYOUS (NZ) 2006      8

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2022-Jun-16, 10:11 PM Reply #31 »
Time And Tide is on that list of 8 G1 wins.

Before my time but he constantly comes up on my radar screen when looking though Oz racing history.

Rarely gets discussed but he must have been some horse.

Offline peter kamenzind

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« 2022-Jun-17, 10:43 AM Reply #32 »
Ajax of course remembered for his defeat in the Rawson Stakes in 1939 at 1/40, as much as his 18 straight wins.

If I remember correctly, it was a pretty blustery day, and a few took the £1000 to win less than £30 on Ajax.  With only 3 running, it was a dawdling pace, and Spear Chief came from "the back" of the field.

I always put his defeat down to a horse that had been racing "the other way" down in Melbourne, where he had been and raced for about a year.  For a long-striding horse, Ajax had to overcome not only racing in the opposite direction, but a tight-turning track as well.

They sent him up to Sydney by rail about a week prior I think.  It would have been an easier proposition if he was set for Randwick for a first-up Sydney run.

They said the Rawson would be something of a training run for Ajax, and the next day the headlines were "Ajax beaten".  Spear Chief started at 33/1, he was a moderate performer, and was not given a realistic chance of winning.
« Last Edit: 2022-Jun-17, 11:54 AM by peter kamenzind »

Online pwa54

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« 2022-Jun-17, 11:13 AM Reply #33 »
That defeat of Ajax was a real turf sensation. He really is one of the most under-rated champions of the Australian turf mainly because of that unfair Darby Munro "cotton wool champion" tag. Ajax was never as comfortable at Rosehill as you point out and the Futurity Stakes earlier in the autumn had taken it out of him. He was only once unplaced in 46 starts.

Allunga was the third horse in the Rawson and Badger on Ajax may have made a mistake in seeing off Allunga allowing Spear Chief to pounce.

Spear Chief was a pretty good performer. He won 2 Brisbane Cups, the first setting the Australian record for 2 miles, the second carrying 9st 7lb. In Queensland he won their 2 and 3yo classics including the Derby, and also won the Hotham Handicap. But he certainly was not in the class of Ajax.


Offline Wenona

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« 2022-Jun-18, 09:23 PM Reply #34 »
WENONA GIRL (AUS) 1957      11

She doesn't get the love she deserves.

I've seen reports that 15 of her wins are now Group 1's but I concede it's difficult to assign Group 1's retrospectively.

No question she was one of the great milers of all time and won Group 1 (retro nominated) races from 1000 to 2400, winning the 1000m race later than the 2400m race.

Offline timw

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« 2022-Jun-19, 11:24 AM Reply #35 »
The champions that raced prior to WWII probably helped kill off WFA racing which meant that horses that raced after WWII up until the MVRC started the revival of WFA racing suffered from handicap racing compared to today.  Some of those horses from that era like Wenona Girl and Time and Tide would likely have had much better records if they raced today (Tulloch being the obvious exception from that period).

Online JWesleyHarding

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« 2022-Jun-19, 12:22 PM Reply #36 »
I've posted something similar before but the two things that would have improved Wenona Girls record was if

1 The mighty Persian Lyric
and
2 the wonderful Sky High

had not been he same age

Online wily ole dog

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« 2022-Jun-19, 04:53 PM Reply #37 »
Iím late to the conversation but surely Impossible to retrospectively  make races G1s? You certainly canít do it by the name of the race.

Am I righ5nin saying the Cox plate wasnít always a G1 and didnít always attract the best horses?

Online sobig

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« 2022-Jun-19, 05:07 PM Reply #38 »
Pretty sure the Cox Plate has been a group1 since the introduction of pattern races in I think the 70's

Online pwa54

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« 2022-Jun-19, 07:16 PM Reply #39 »
This is an interesting table from the Wikipedia page on the Cox Plate showing the favourites, their price and where they finished, many champions amongst them.

Year   Favourite   Price   Finish

2021   Anamoe, Verry Elleegant 3.60 2, 3
2020   Russian Camelot 3.50   3
2019   Lys Gracieux 2.50   1
2018   Winx 1.20   1
2017   Winx 1.10   1
2016   Winx 1.70   1
2015   Winx 4.60   1
2014   Fawkner   4.50   2
2013   Dundeel 4.00   8
2012   Green Moon 5.00   7
2011   Helmet 3.30   8
2010   So You Think 1.50   1
2009   Whobegotyou 2.80   6
2008   Samantha Miss 4.50   3
2007   Miss Finland 4.00   4
2006   Racing To Win   3.75   11
2005   Makybe Diva 2.00   1
2004   Elvstroem 4.20   8
2003   Lonhro 1.60   3
2002   Northerly 4.00*   1
2002   Lonhro 4.00*   6
2001   Sunline 2.75   2
2000   Sunline 2.38   1
1999   Redoute's Choice 4.50   5
1998   Might and Power 1.73   1
1997   Filante   2.38   2
1996   Filante   3.25*   2
1996   Juggler   3.25*   4
1995   Danewin   4.50*   9
1995   Our Maizcay   4.50*   14
1994   Jeune 4.00   13
1993   Naturalism 3.00   4
1992   Naturalism 2.00   LR
1991   Shaftesbury Avenue   2.50   12
1990   Better Loosen Up   3.00   1
1989   Almaarad 3.75   1
1988   Our Poetic Prince 2.25   1
1987   Rubiton   2.75   1
1986   Bonecrusher 1.90   1
1985   Drawn   4.50   3
1984   Red Anchor   1.73   1
1983   Sir Dapper   4.50*   5
1983   Strawberry Road 6.50   11
1982   Kingston Town 2.75   1
1981   Kingston Town   1.67   1
1980   Kingston Town   2.50   1
1979   Dulcify   2.75   1
1978   La Mer 2.75   6
1977   Luskin Star   2.75   9
1976   How Now   2.75   4
1975   Wave King   7.00   5
1974   Taras Bulba   3.50   2
1973   Young Ida   5.00   7
1972   Gunsynd   2.50   1
1971   Igloo   3.75   2
1970   Gay Poss   2.75   6
1969   Ben Lomond   2.75   2
1968   Rajah Sahib   2.75   1
1967   Tobin Bronze 1.17   1
1966   Tobin Bronze 1.90   1
1965   Winfreux   2.38   2
1964   Strauss   3.50   5
1963   Sometime   2.25   3
1962   Aquanita   1.80   1
1961   Sky High   1.44   3
1960   Tulloch 3.00   1
1959   Travel Boy   3.50   6
1958   Prince Darius   3.00   4
1957   Prince Darius   2.11   2
1956   Rising Fast 2.75   2
1955   Rising Fast 2.50   6
1954   Rising Fast 2.38   1
1953   Carioca   3.25   5
1952   Hydrogen   2.38   1
1951   Hydrogen   2.25   2
1950   Delta   2.38   5
1949   Comic Court   2.25   2
1948   Phoibos   2.50   2
1947   Royal Gem   2.75   4
1946   Flying Duke   3.50   5
1946   St. Fairy   3.00   7
1945   Lawrence   1.90   4
1944   Lawrence   1.50   2
1943   Amana   3.50   1
1942   Great Britain   3.25   13
1941   Beau Vite 1.33   1
1940   Beau Vite 2.75   1
1939   High Caste   1.90   5
1938   Ajax   1.50   1
1937   Young Idea   3.00   1
1936   Mala   4.00   2
1935   Hall Mark   3.00   2
1934   Chatham   3.00   1
1933   Chatham   1.53   4
1932   Chatham   2.11   1
1931   Phar Lap 1.07   1
1930   Phar Lap 1.14   1
1929   Nightmarch 2.25   1
1928   Ramulus   4.00*   2
1928   Amounis   4.00*   7
1927   Amounis   4.00*   1
1927   Gothic   4.00*   3
1926   Heroic   1.80   1
1925   Manfred   1.80   1
1924   Whittier   2.50   2
1923   Easingwold   2.50   1
1922   Tangalooma   2.50   6

ē   Price: * indicates equal favourite.


Offline Jeunes

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« 2022-Jun-19, 07:39 PM Reply #40 »
Really interesting statistics PWA.  :beer:

This one is from memory as I backed  some of the favs who backed up and won or placed in the Cup. I canít remember the 80s and further behind  as was too young. I have been having a small saver on some of them since Jeune.   :lol:

Jeune - 1994 MC
Makybe Diva - 2005 MC
So You Think - placed in MC
Green Moon -2012 MC
Fawkner - placed in 2014 MC
Russian Camelot - unplaced in 2020 MC
Very Elegant- 2021 MC


Offline timw

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« 2022-Jun-19, 07:50 PM Reply #41 »
Re retrospective group 1 wins.               
               
France-galop now seems to recognise retrospective group wins.  Here are the details of Sea Bird's races from france-galop.com including their 'retrospective' group status (includes English Derby):                  
               
               
Date   Racecourse   Finishing order   Distance       Class
3/10/1965   PARISLONGCHAMP   1   2.4      GR.I
4/07/1965   SAINT-CLOUD   1   2.5      GR.I
2/06/1965   EPSOM (GBR)   1   2.4      GR.I
16/05/1965   PARISLONGCHAMP   1   2.1      GR.I
4/04/1965   PARISLONGCHAMP   1   2.1      GR.II
11/10/1964   PARISLONGCHAMP   2   1.6      GR.I
18/09/1964   MAIS-LAFFITTE   1   1.4      GR.II
2/09/1964   CHANTILLY   1   1.4      
               
If it's good enough for france-galop it's good enough for me even though the American Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders Association may not agree.                 
               
Here is an extract of MVRC W.S. Cox Plate winners taken from the Austrlian Stud Book showing the last year the race was run as a principal race and the first year it was run as a group race               
               
1982   Kingston Town (AUS) 1976   Group 1         
1981   Kingston Town (AUS) 1976   Group 1         
1980   Kingston Town (AUS) 1976   Group 1         
1979   Dulcify (NZ) 1975   Group 1         
1978   So Called (NZ) 1974   Principal race         
1977   Family Of Man (AUS) 1973   Principal race         
               
Re pwa's table of cox plate favourites above I always remember Makybe Diva jogging around the home bend but when I watched a replay a little while ago it didn't seem quite as easy as I remembered.     

Cheers            

Online pwa54

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« 2022-Jun-19, 08:23 PM Reply #42 »
Someone recently posted 6 minutes or so of the Channel 9 (?) telecast of the 1992 Cox Plate on YouTube with the after-race comments. This still has to be one of the best fields and one of the most dramatic and most spectacular races in Australian turf history.

Jeunes, you'd have made a tidy profit over the years!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhunv1nBuu4


Online Peter Mair

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« 2022-Jun-19, 08:49 PM Reply #43 »


..................... under the new whip rules ... how long would G Hall have got for that effort?

Offline Jeunes

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« 2022-Jun-19, 09:11 PM Reply #44 »
Someone recently posted 6 minutes or so of the Channel 9 (?) telecast of the 1992 Cox Plate on YouTube with the after-race comments. This still has to be one of the best fields and one of the most dramatic and most spectacular races in Australian turf history.

Jeunes, you'd have made a tidy profit over the years!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhunv1nBuu4

There are 3 races that are my all time favourites.

1. 1994 Melbourne Cup
2. 1992 Cox Plate
3.  1996 Rosehill Guineas

I was there for the last one and that was after we watched Occy beat Filante in the Guineas. We were there for the BMW and Derby too.

I was lucky enough to see Winx a few times too as well as some of the 90s and 00s horses.

I did not make a big profit on the cups as some like VE last year was not my main bet,  :shy:

It is hard to get enthused about some of the horses these days as the racing is a blur these days with the number of meetings etc. Usually you have to switch channels to see post race depending on the day or broadcast partner. I like when 7 or 9 do the coverage as the post race interviews are quite good.



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