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Author Topic: Winx Group 1 record isn't the real record  (Read 8374 times)

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Offline davrow

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O.P. « 2018-Apr-06, 04:18 AM »
As great as Winx's winning record in Group One races is (15 at present), we MUST remember that this so-called record is based on Group One wins counted ONLY since 1978.
1. Why do we exclude over 100 years of Australian racing history prior to 1978 when counting Group One wins?......Who knows, maybe laziness?
2. Which Australian racehorse has won the most Group One races?......TULLOCH, of course, who as close as can be calculated, won either 20 or 21 Group Ones, based on race names/grading now and their equivalent race names/grading back in the late 50's/early 60's when he raced.
3. So, can Winx win another 6 Group Ones & break the REAL G1 record?...... It's possible, but unlikely, since this would mean 2 more unbeaten campaigns prior to retirement (ie. Spring 2018 & Autumn 2019, the latter which I doubt will go ahead, particularly if she wins the 2018 Cox Plate).
NB: Tulloch missed almost 2 years of racing due to a life-threatening illness, so just how good was he to still be the overall Group One champ?.......'phenomenal' comes to mind !!

Offline timw

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« 2018-Apr-06, 05:14 AM Reply #1 »
I can make a case for Tulloch having won 16 Group 1 wins retrospectively on the basis of the names of the races first classified as Group 1 races in the 1979-1980 year.  I could also make a case that the total should be discounted back to take into account that there was a proportionately smaller number of horses competing for each notional Group 1 race in Tulloch's period than is the case today.

The 16 retrospective or notional Group 1 wins I have identified are as follows:
'
Position   Date                    Margin                 Track                                                 Race Name      Conditions
1st-6   9/03/1957.   0.5L x 2.5L Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Sires' Produce Stakes   2YO SW
1st-3   20/04/1957.   2L x ½ nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Sires' Produce Stakes   2YO SW
1st-7   21/09/1957.   4L x 0.75L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rosehill Guineas   3YO SW
1st-5   5/10/1957.   6L x 8L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Derby   3YO SW
1st-14   12/10/1957.   8L x 0.75L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Guineas   3YO SW
1st-17   19/10/1957.   2L x 1L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Cup   Open Hcp
1st-8   02/11/1957.   8L x nk   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Victoria Derby   3YO SW
1st-4   16/11/1957.   7L x 10L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   QTC Derby Stakes   3YO SW
1st-4   22/03/1958.   3L x 2L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rawson Stakes   WFA & Allces
1st-4   09/04/1958.   0.75L x lg nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC All-Aged Stakes   WFA
1st-4   12/04/1958.   1.5L x 2L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   WFA
1st-4   13/04/1960.   1.25L x 6L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   WFA
1st-15   22/10/1960.   0.5L x 3L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC W.S. Cox Plate   WFA
1st-8   29/10/1960.   0.5L x 2.5L Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC L.K.S Mackinnon Stakes   WFA
1st-6   29/03/1961.   4L x 3L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   WFA
1st-11   12/06/1961.   1.75L x 2.25L Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   QTC Brisbane Cup   Open Hcp

I note that while the VRC Sires was graded as a Group 1 race in 1979-80 it was subsequently downgraded.

Cheers

 
« Last Edit: 2018-Apr-06, 05:17 AM by timw »

Offline tontonan

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« 2018-Apr-06, 05:17 PM Reply #2 »
1. Why do we exclude over 100 years of Australian racing history prior to 1978 when counting Group One wins?......Who knows, maybe laziness?

It's not laziness.  It is simply that Group 1 races did not exist before the racing industry started calling them Group 1 races in 1979.  There is nothing to count. 

Prior to the pattern system our best races (which became Group races under the pattern system) were designated 'principal races'.  Personally I think tallying the principal races won is an altogether better measure of the cumulative achievement of a horse than attempting to count the problematic Group 1's retrospectively. 

This list is by no means complete but it will give you some idea of how a comparison might look using principal race wins as the metric...

36 Gloaming (7 Aust 29 NZ)  Phar Lap
31 Tulloch
30 Ajax
29 Carbine   (2 NZ 27 Aust)
28 Eurythmic
28 High Caste (1 NZ 27 Aust)
27 Sunline   (4 NZ 1 HK  22 Aust)
27 Amounis
26 Winx
26 Sky High
26 Kingston Town
25 Wakeful
25 Manikato
24 Lonhro
23 Black Caviar
22 Redcraze
22 Wenona Girl
21 Gunsynd
21 Peter Pan
21 Comic Court
20 Delta
« Last Edit: 2018-Apr-06, 09:40 PM by tontonan »

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2018-Apr-06, 05:41 PM Reply #3 »
Hope you can just humour me but let's say Tulloch didn't lose that 18 months or whatever it was, of his prime time,  how many principal races would he have reasonably won?

This bloke was the greatest in my time.   :noteworthy:   :noteworthy:   :noteworthy:   :noteworthy:


Offline wily ole dog

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« 2018-Apr-06, 07:47 PM Reply #4 »
Watching the golf today and seeing the likes of langer and Lyle shoot good scores with the new technology only reminded me we massively under rate past champions
As great as she is........

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2018-Apr-06, 08:07 PM Reply #5 »
Hope you can just humour me but let's say Tulloch didn't lose that 18 months or whatever it was, of his prime time,  how many principal races would he have reasonably won?

This bloke was the greatest in my time.    :noteworthy:     :noteworthy:     :noteworthy:     :noteworthy:

As much as I hate to agree with you JWH , I wholeheartedly agree Tulloch takes some beating as the greatest in my time, I was only a twinkle in my father's eyes when  Phar Lap raced and he was only a twinkle in his father's eyes when Carbine races. Those three horses are the benchmark to compare any modern day champions.

Offline timw

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« 2018-Apr-06, 08:16 PM Reply #6 »
Tontonan

First - please get some photos and index some new additions to 'race records'

Second - no system works best - where is Kindergarten Carbine and all the other great NZ horses - Kim will be launching missiles from NZ. 

JWH - As much as I am a fan of Langer - He was a fave and I followed him quite a bit around Huntingdale (Melb) the old blokes should give it away and join the commentary team a la Faldo.   The masters wastes about 20 spots every year on old codgers and amos and a small field.  At least they let a few Aussies in these days (on merit of course). Let's say Norman had beaten Faldo would we really want to see Norman turn up for a hit and giggle once a year. 
« Last Edit: 2018-Apr-06, 08:23 PM by timw »

Offline qwertyu1234567

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« 2018-Apr-06, 09:43 PM Reply #7 »
I can make a case for Tulloch having won 16 Group 1 wins retrospectively on the basis of the names of the races first classified as Group 1 races in the 1979-1980 year.  I could also make a case that the total should be discounted back to take into account that there was a proportionately smaller number of horses competing for each notional Group 1 race in Tulloch's period than is the case today.

The 16 retrospective or notional Group 1 wins I have identified are as follows:
'
Position   Date                    Margin                 Track                                                 Race Name      Conditions
1st-6   9/03/1957.   0.5L x 2.5L Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Sires' Produce Stakes   2YO SW
1st-3   20/04/1957.   2L x ½ nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Sires' Produce Stakes   2YO SW
1st-7   21/09/1957.   4L x 0.75L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rosehill Guineas   3YO SW
1st-5   5/10/1957.   6L x 8L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Derby   3YO SW
1st-14   12/10/1957.   8L x 0.75L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Guineas   3YO SW
1st-17   19/10/1957.   2L x 1L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Cup   Open Hcp
1st-8   02/11/1957.   8L x nk   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Victoria Derby   3YO SW
1st-4   16/11/1957.   7L x 10L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   QTC Derby Stakes   3YO SW
1st-4   22/03/1958.   3L x 2L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rawson Stakes   WFA & Allces
1st-4   09/04/1958.   0.75L x lg nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC All-Aged Stakes   WFA
1st-4   12/04/1958.   1.5L x 2L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   WFA
1st-4   13/04/1960.   1.25L x 6L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   WFA
1st-15   22/10/1960.   0.5L x 3L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC W.S. Cox Plate   WFA
1st-8   29/10/1960.   0.5L x 2.5L Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC L.K.S Mackinnon Stakes   WFA
1st-6   29/03/1961.   4L x 3L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   WFA
1st-11   12/06/1961.   1.75L x 2.25L Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   QTC Brisbane Cup   Open Hcp

I note that while the VRC Sires was graded as a Group 1 race in 1979-80 it was subsequently downgraded.

Cheers


At today's prices, what's all that worth in Prize Money,
If anyone can be bothered  :beer:

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Apr-06, 10:58 PM Reply #8 »
As great as Winx's winning record in Group One races is (15 at present), we MUST remember that this so-called record is based on Group One wins counted ONLY since 1978.
1. Why do we exclude over 100 years of Australian racing history prior to 1978 when counting Group One wins?......Who knows, maybe laziness?
2. Which Australian racehorse has won the most Group One races?......TULLOCH, of course, who as close as can be calculated, won either 20 or 21 Group Ones, based on race names/grading now and their equivalent race names/grading back in the late 50's/early 60's when he raced.
3. So, can Winx win another 6 Group Ones & break the REAL G1 record?...... It's possible, but unlikely, since this would mean 2 more unbeaten campaigns prior to retirement (ie. Spring 2018 & Autumn 2019, the latter which I doubt will go ahead, particularly if she wins the 2018 Cox Plate).
NB: Tulloch missed almost 2 years of racing due to a life-threatening illness, so just how good was he to still be the overall Group One champ?.......'phenomenal' comes to mind !!

Very true. Tulloch had a phenomenal record being unplaced only once in over 50 starts, and most of those starts being against the best.

But Winx also has raced against the best.

And the defining quality of Winx's record to me is the way she smashes the opposition. She is getting on a bit and the smashings aren't as commonplace as she gets older but you still feel she has them covered a long way out.

The other defining quality is her infallibility. She doesn't get beat.

Combining these two qualities gives Winx a unique character and one that places her among the all time greats.

You can count Group 1 wins, Group 2 and 3 wins or how many Group 1's the opposition has won (in this metric I think you'll find Winx compares very well to past champions).

But to see people - non regular racegoers - flock to the track and start clapping as she goes out on to the track. And the warm response given to her as she returns to the winning stall. These are things you cannot quantify.

We can start threads that somehow try and denigrate Winx's record till the cow's come home - seems to be a few of these.

But to Joe Public, if she doesn't win another race, she is up there with Tulloch and when we are all dead and buried and future historians review what has happened that will be the only thing that counts.

Offline Jeunes

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« 2018-Apr-07, 12:32 AM Reply #9 »
We complain about small fields now but out of Tulloch’s wins, 7 of them had 5 or less. It will be an interesting comparison to see the average number of runners beaten by all the champs.

Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Apr-14, 09:58 AM Reply #10 »
Has anybody worked out which horse in Australia has the greatest winning streak of group 1 races including retrospectively and not interrupted by a win in a lower graded race ?

Offline tontonan

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« 2018-Apr-14, 01:10 PM Reply #11 »
My best guess is  Black Caviar with 8 - and there were no 'retrospective' issues.    However,  7 of those races were NOT Group 1 races in 1979.  That's why these sorts of 'records' are bunkum. Modern day horses are at a huge advantage because of the availability of Group 1 races that didn't exist in 1979. 

Prior to 1979, and using the 1979 'rule' (i.e. a Group 1 race in 1979 is retrospectively a Group 1 race up until 1979) the two 'record' holders were probably Tulloch and Rising Fast with 5 straight each.   An argument could be made for several other horses including Carbine and Phar Lap but their 'Group 1' streaks are punctuated by premium races that ceased to exist by 1979 and are therefore unclassified.

But I repeat.  There is no 'record' (other than Black Caviar's).  It's bunkum.



BLACK CAVIAR : Group 1 winning streak

11/02/12           1st   9   CF Orr Stks (G1)   1400m   Luke Nolen 57kg   5   2nd Southern Speed 57kg   3rd Playing God 59kg   1:25.14 (600m 33.39)   Dead4   $402,000 ($242,000)   $1.04/$1.06/$1.05   130
18/02/12     1st   9   Lightning Stks (G1)   1000m   Luke Nolen 56.5kg   5   2nd Hay List 58.5kg   3rd Buffering 58.5kg   0:55.53 (600m 31.82)   Good3   $752,500 ($452,500)   $1.1/$1.10   130
28/04/12           1st   10   Sangster Stks (G1)   1200m   Luke Nolen 56.5kg   3   2nd Sistine Angel 56.5kg   3rd Power Princess 56.5kg   1:10.65 (600m 35.37)   Dead4   $400,400 ($255,000)   $1.05/$1.05   130
12/05/12           1st   9   Goodwood Hcp (G1)   1200m   Luke Nolen 57kg   8   2nd We're Gonna Rock 56kg   3rd Stirling Grove 54.5kg   1:10.32 (602m 34.06)   Good3   $500,500 ($320,500)   $1.05/$1.05   130
23/06/12           1st   14   Diamond Jubilee Stks (G1)   1200m   Luke Nolen 57.5kg   14   2nd Moonlight Cloud (GB) 57.5kg   3rd Restiadargent (FR) 54.5kg   01:14.10   Good   $748,288 ($431,386)   $1.16   
16/02/13           1st   8   Lightning Stks (G1)   1000m   Luke Nolen 56.5kg   2   2nd Moment of Change 58.5kg   3rd Golden Archer 58.5kg   0:55.42 (600m 31.36)   Good3   $502,500 ($302,500)   $1.07/$1.10/$1.10   130
22/03/13     1st   7   William Reid Stks (G1)   1200m   Luke Nolen 56.5kg   6   2nd Karuta Queen 56.5kg   3rd Fawkner 58.5kg   1:11.08 (600m 33.66)   Good3   $404,000 ($244,000)   $1.05/$1.03   130
13/03/13    1st   11   TJ Smith Stks (G1)   1200m   Luke Nolen 56.5kg   1   2nd Epaulette 56.5kg   3rd Bel Sprinter 58.5kg   1:09.65 (600m 36.09)   Dead4   $1,005,000 ($605,000)   $1.10/$1.16/$1.14   130

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Apr-14, 02:19 PM Reply #12 »
Title of the thread is correct. This is a "false record".

The Irish hurdler Hurricane Fly (by Montjeu not Hurricane Sky) holds the record. Winx has a long way to go.

Most group / grade one (G1) wins

To identify the highest quality races, the pattern race system was introduced in Europe in 1971, followed by the graded stakes system in North America in 1974.[136] Other countries followed suit, though the criteria and quality has not always been consistent between racing jurisdictions. The following list considers horses that won grade one / group one races that were open for International competition. Winners of local (restricted) group / grade one wins are not included.

The horses with ten or more such G1 race wins a

22 wins – Hurricane Fly (IRE)[137]
17 wins – Winx (AUS)‡[81]
16 wins – John Henry (USA),[138] Kauto Star (FR)[139]
15 wins – Black Caviar (AUS)‡,[140]
14 wins – Affirmed (USA), Forego (USA),[141] Goldikova (IRE)‡,[142][143] Kingston Town (AUS),[140] Istabraq (IRE)[144]
13 wins – Bayakoa (ARG)‡,[145] Moscow Flyer (IRE),[146] Spectacular Bid,[147] Sunline (NZ)‡,[140] Tie the Knot (AUS),[140] Zenyatta (USA)‡[148]
11 wins – Beholder (USA)‡,[149] Cigar (USA), Lady's Secret (USA)‡,[150] Lonhro (AUS),[140] Manikato,[140] McDynamo (USA),[151] Rough Habit (NZ),[140] Serena's Song‡ (USA), Wise Dan (USA)[152]
10 wins – Azeri (USA)‡, Beef or Salmon (IRE),[153] Big Buck's (FRA),[154] Brave Inca (IRE),[155] Dahlia (USA)‡, Frankel (GB), Miesque (USA)‡, Paseana (ARG)‡,[156] Octagonal (NZ),[140] Mufhasa (NZ), Skip Away (USA),[157] So You Think (NZ)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_leading_Thoroughbred_racehorses#Most_group_/_grade_one_(G1)_wins

What other threads with negative titles can we have about Winx? There must be something. 

There is the Winx Needs to Wn The Everest to be called a Champion thread. I'm sure we have sopmething along the lines of a Winx isn't as good as Tulloch thread.

If you remove human consciousness from the equation, Winx's record isn't a real record. She hasn't won 28 races in fact. Hasn't won 3 Cox Plates. Isn't the record holder for prizemoney. Figment of the imagination. I'm going to start a Winx Isn't A Real Racehorse thread.

(the cynicism aimed at the people who think there is a need to open new threads with loud titles where there is already a Winx thread for you to comment on).

Offline pwa54

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« 2018-Apr-14, 04:41 PM Reply #13 »
It might have been mentioned before but there's a new book on Tulloch from 2017 titled Tulloch - The Extraordinary Life and Times of a True Champion by Ken Linnett from Slattery Publishing.

It's a very interesting read. There's some fine descriptions of his races and plenty on the horses who raced against him.

Offline Dave

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« 2018-Apr-15, 02:39 PM Reply #14 »
I would like to preface this by saying Winx is about as dominant as any horse could be, no horse in history could have done any better in her last 25 starts........she is the perfect champion, even when there is a heavy track bias she can race in the worse part of the track and still win easy against the best Australia has to offer....I am in awe of her ability

Now in saying that any records, especially Group One wins are heavily biased in her favour as compared to past Champions, even when we convert races that are now Group Ones, i.e. Tulloch was never set for races like The Cox Plate/BMW/Ranvet etc, they were not where the money was.....he could have gone on winning WFA races for many years but they weren't worth the effort back then....they ran in some of them because they were there............but they were not important, kinda like running in a barrier trail but getting paid for it

If they wanted to win big prizemoney even Champions had to earn it(that is the way it should be).....now they give it away.....it is more akin to appearance money than prizemoney
If Tulloch was around in the current era(with no Winx) who else would beat him?.........hard to compare Champs with perfect records....they were/are both awesome
Again I am sure Winx is well up to a challenge if she was asked.....but she never will be....and why would you?
We now like the sport to be more about exhibition than an actual Horse race.......personally watching Synchronized swimming never appealed to me and neither does Winx beating up on the same horses time after time.....and getting a start(weight) off of them....it ain't really a fair fight is it?

Offline Gintara

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« 2018-Apr-15, 03:43 PM Reply #15 »

Again I am sure Winx is well up to a challenge if she was asked.....but she never will be....and why would you?


She turns up every start, who else wasn't there?  :/

Winx beating up on the same horses time after time.....and getting a start(weight) off of them....it ain't really a fair fight is it?


It's WFA, pretty sure it's stood the test of time, or would you prefer if we tied one of her hooves behind her back so she has to hobble?

Offline timw

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« 2018-Apr-15, 07:58 PM Reply #16 »
Dave
A quick survey indicates Tulloch was no stranger to WFA racing.  He started 25 times for 18 wins, 3 seconds and 4 thirds.
He also won a WFA and allowances race (Rawson) now called the Ranvet.
In addition he started in 12  2YO & 3YO set weight races (the WFA equivalent for youngsters if you like) for 10 wins and 2 seconds. 
So with 37 starts at set weights and WFA it doesn't sound like he went out of his way was avoid the 'easy' kills.
14 of those WFA and set weight race wins were later classified as Group 1 races.
Cheers

Offline Dave

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« 2018-Apr-16, 01:58 PM Reply #17 »
Like most people you have missed the point, Of course all the champs ran in WFA races........ Cos they were easy kills!!!!!!..........but they were never their Grand Finals, they were never set for a WFA campaign........they were never “peaked” for a Cox Plate etc, the Cox Plate was just in the right place at the right time........
They  nearly all ran in the “practice” stakes (McKinnon) too......using it as a barrier trial........your silly assumption is like saying they had more track gallops than they did real races
The difference is Winx only attempts the “easy kills” ...........and anyone who says that the WFA system has stood the test of time is a moron.........so has catch weight trials........that is like having a system for measuring how long a piece of string is..........most WFA races(especially with horses like Winx) would have the same result if she had another 10kg’s.......so how does that prove anything?
Just another stupid myth that you have heard that many times that you have stopped thinking and think it is fact......it ain’t.........there is no such thing as a fair WFA scale..........it always favours the best horse regardless of age........
When Winx was 4 it favoured 4year old mares, when she was 5 it favoured 5 year old mares........it was the same when Tulloch raced......Phar Lap had a huge advantage at WFA.........all the real champs did......That is why it was never considered a challenge.......they are just exhibition Gallops for champions...........if they had just run Tulloch in WFA races with the priority to keep him unbeaten he would have won many more races......Don’t you think?
I am not downplaying the great accomplishments of WINX........just compare apples with apples

Like that drongo Dom Bierne saying Winx was vulnerable because she was only producing A- runs, she was vulnerable if a couple of the others produced their A+ runs......he is a mathematician not a horse person.........Winx didn’t need to be at her peak in the lead ups..........Waller was always going to peak her for her final.........she was always going to win easy, obviously punters and Bookies thought the same..........for the first time I backed her........with every punting dollar I had,  she was a $1.01 chance paying $1.30........ an example of an educated idiot...........
You can’t apply normal maths to a Champ.........you can’t apply normal standards to Grand Final races............and you can’t apply today’s standards to Tulloch’s era

Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Apr-16, 02:29 PM Reply #18 »
I would argue that in the good old days horses were generally not set for a grand final, crikeys in the grand old good old days they would run 4 times in Melbourne Cup week and back up 2 or 3 weeks later wherever they wanted. Not sure if Perth had been discovered in the really good grand old days.

Dave your idea of fair is not actually fair.

Why in any sport no matter what sport it is should the best be required to compete with their feat tied behind their backs ?

For the PUNT, not the sport the PUNT.




Offline Gintara

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« 2018-Apr-16, 07:40 PM Reply #19 »
Yes all those easy kills of Cox Plates  :shutup:

Offline napes

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« 2018-Apr-17, 01:20 PM Reply #20 »

If Tulloch was around in the current era(with no Winx) who else would beat him?.........

If Tulloch was around in the current era he would be rising 64. Doubt he would win too many   :biggrin:

Horses get better with age. Or is it they get better with the age of the person talking about them?

Offline Shogun Lodge

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« 2018-Apr-17, 04:34 PM Reply #21 »
The assertion that she would not continue racing in Autumn after winning her 4th Cox Plate is a bit of a leap as well.
Why, if she is fine, would they stop?
Breeding barn opens its doors September, so there is no reason she would not race on.
World Cup in Dubai on dirt March 19....now that would be a great last race.
Perhaps her 3rd QE Stakes will be enough..would she better Tulloch then? Who knows who cares.
« Last Edit: 2018-Apr-17, 04:37 PM by Shogun Lodge »

Offline fours

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« 2018-Apr-17, 11:59 PM Reply #22 »
Hmmm,

Her freakish cadence might be an issue on the dirt - more jarring or do I have it back to front?

Fours

Offline timw

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« 2018-Apr-18, 08:47 PM Reply #23 »
Dave

Given your comments on Winx what are your top 5 or 10 or whatever and what are your criteria. 

Eg if it's G1 handicap wins (inc retrospective) then does Super Impose get a look in?

I have been pondering this question from the time an ex AFL radio commentator said about 15 years ago that Bernborough was the best horse he ever saw (must have seen him retirement because I didn't think he was that old).  He now works for another radio station so I tuned in on the Mon after QE stks and he was raving about Winx so I perhaps he has changed his mind.

Cheers


Offline Jeunes

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« 2018-Apr-29, 12:53 PM Reply #24 »


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