I can make a case for Tulloch having won 16 Group 1 wins retrospectively on the basis of the names of the races first classified as Group 1 races in the 1979-1980 year.  I could also make a case that the total should be discounted back to take into account that there was a proportionately smaller number of horses competing for each notional Group 1 race in Tulloch's period than is the case today.

The 16 retrospective or notional Group 1 wins I have identified are as follows:
'
Position   Date                    Margin                 Track                                                 Race Name      Conditions
1st-6   9/03/1957.   0.5L x 2.5L Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Sires' Produce Stakes   2YO SW
1st-3   20/04/1957.   2L x ½ nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Sires' Produce Stakes   2YO SW
1st-7   21/09/1957.   4L x 0.75L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rosehill Guineas   3YO SW
1st-5   5/10/1957.   6L x 8L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Derby   3YO SW
1st-14   12/10/1957.   8L x 0.75L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Guineas   3YO SW
1st-17   19/10/1957.   2L x 1L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Cup   Open Hcp
1st-8   02/11/1957.   8L x nk   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Victoria Derby   3YO SW
1st-4   16/11/1957.   7L x 10L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   QTC Derby Stakes   3YO SW
1st-4   22/03/1958.   3L x 2L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rawson Stakes   WFA & Allces
1st-4   09/04/1958.   0.75L x lg nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC All-Aged Stakes   WFA
1st-4   12/04/1958.   1.5L x 2L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   WFA
1st-4   13/04/1960.   1.25L x 6L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   WFA
1st-15   22/10/1960.   0.5L x 3L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC W.S. Cox Plate   WFA
1st-8   29/10/1960.   0.5L x 2.5L Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC L.K.S Mackinnon Stakes   WFA
1st-6   29/03/1961.   4L x 3L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   WFA
1st-11   12/06/1961.   1.75L x 2.25L Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   QTC Brisbane Cup   Open Hcp

I note that while the VRC Sires was graded as a Group 1 race in 1979-80 it was subsequently downgraded.

Cheers

 

Hope you can just humour me but let's say Tulloch didn't lose that 18 months or whatever it was, of his prime time,  how many principal races would he have reasonably won?

This bloke was the greatest in my time.         

Hope you can just humour me but let's say Tulloch didn't lose that 18 months or whatever it was, of his prime time,  how many principal races would he have reasonably won?

This bloke was the greatest in my time.               

As much as I hate to agree with you JWH , I wholeheartedly agree Tulloch takes some beating as the greatest in my time, I was only a twinkle in my father's eyes when  Phar Lap raced and he was only a twinkle in his father's eyes when Carbine races. Those three horses are the benchmark to compare any modern day champions.

I can make a case for Tulloch having won 16 Group 1 wins retrospectively on the basis of the names of the races first classified as Group 1 races in the 1979-1980 year.  I could also make a case that the total should be discounted back to take into account that there was a proportionately smaller number of horses competing for each notional Group 1 race in Tulloch's period than is the case today.

The 16 retrospective or notional Group 1 wins I have identified are as follows:
'
Position   Date                    Margin                 Track                                                 Race Name      Conditions
1st-6   9/03/1957.   0.5L x 2.5L Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Sires' Produce Stakes   2YO SW
1st-3   20/04/1957.   2L x ½ nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Sires' Produce Stakes   2YO SW
1st-7   21/09/1957.   4L x 0.75L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rosehill Guineas   3YO SW
1st-5   5/10/1957.   6L x 8L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Derby   3YO SW
1st-14   12/10/1957.   8L x 0.75L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Guineas   3YO SW
1st-17   19/10/1957.   2L x 1L   Caulfield, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VATC Caulfield Cup   Open Hcp
1st-8   02/11/1957.   8L x nk   Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC Victoria Derby   3YO SW
1st-4   16/11/1957.   7L x 10L   Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   QTC Derby Stakes   3YO SW
1st-4   22/03/1958.   3L x 2L   Rosehill, Sydney, NSW, AUS   STC Rawson Stakes   WFA & Allces
1st-4   09/04/1958.   0.75L x lg nk   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC All-Aged Stakes   WFA
1st-4   12/04/1958.   1.5L x 2L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   WFA
1st-4   13/04/1960.   1.25L x 6L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   WFA
1st-15   22/10/1960.   0.5L x 3L   Moonee Valley, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   MVRC W.S. Cox Plate   WFA
1st-8   29/10/1960.   0.5L x 2.5L Flemington, Melbourne, VIC, AUS   VRC L.K.S Mackinnon Stakes   WFA
1st-6   29/03/1961.   4L x 3L   Randwick, Sydney, NSW, AUS   AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes   WFA
1st-11   12/06/1961.   1.75L x 2.25L Eagle Farm, Brisbane, QLD, AUS   QTC Brisbane Cup   Open Hcp

I note that while the VRC Sires was graded as a Group 1 race in 1979-80 it was subsequently downgraded.

Cheers

At today's prices, what's all that worth in Prize Money,
If anyone can be bothered 

We complain about small fields now but out of Tulloch’s wins, 7 of them had 5 or less. It will be an interesting comparison to see the average number of runners beaten by all the champs.

My best guess is  Black Caviar with 8 - and there were no 'retrospective' issues.    However,  7 of those races were NOT Group 1 races in 1979.  That's why these sorts of 'records' are bunkum. Modern day horses are at a huge advantage because of the availability of Group 1 races that didn't exist in 1979. 

Prior to 1979, and using the 1979 'rule' (i.e. a Group 1 race in 1979 is retrospectively a Group 1 race up until 1979) the two 'record' holders were probably Tulloch and Rising Fast with 5 straight each.   An argument could be made for several other horses including Carbine and Phar Lap but their 'Group 1' streaks are punctuated by premium races that ceased to exist by 1979 and are therefore unclassified.

But I repeat.  There is no 'record' (other than Black Caviar's).  It's bunkum.



BLACK CAVIAR : Group 1 winning streak

11/02/12           1st   9   CF Orr Stks (G1)   1400m   Luke Nolen 57kg   5   2nd Southern Speed 57kg   3rd Playing God 59kg   1:25.14 (600m 33.39)   Dead4   $402,000 ($242,000)   $1.04/$1.06/$1.05   130
18/02/12     1st   9   Lightning Stks (G1)   1000m   Luke Nolen 56.5kg   5   2nd Hay List 58.5kg   3rd Buffering 58.5kg   0:55.53 (600m 31.82)   Good3   $752,500 ($452,500)   $1.1/$1.10   130
28/04/12           1st   10   Sangster Stks (G1)   1200m   Luke Nolen 56.5kg   3   2nd Sistine Angel 56.5kg   3rd Power Princess 56.5kg   1:10.65 (600m 35.37)   Dead4   $400,400 ($255,000)   $1.05/$1.05   130
12/05/12           1st   9   Goodwood Hcp (G1)   1200m   Luke Nolen 57kg   8   2nd We're Gonna Rock 56kg   3rd Stirling Grove 54.5kg   1:10.32 (602m 34.06)   Good3   $500,500 ($320,500)   $1.05/$1.05   130
23/06/12           1st   14   Diamond Jubilee Stks (G1)   1200m   Luke Nolen 57.5kg   14   2nd Moonlight Cloud (GB) 57.5kg   3rd Restiadargent (FR) 54.5kg   01:14.10   Good   $748,288 ($431,386)   $1.16   
16/02/13           1st   8   Lightning Stks (G1)   1000m   Luke Nolen 56.5kg   2   2nd Moment of Change 58.5kg   3rd Golden Archer 58.5kg   0:55.42 (600m 31.36)   Good3   $502,500 ($302,500)   $1.07/$1.10/$1.10   130
22/03/13     1st   7   William Reid Stks (G1)   1200m   Luke Nolen 56.5kg   6   2nd Karuta Queen 56.5kg   3rd Fawkner 58.5kg   1:11.08 (600m 33.66)   Good3   $404,000 ($244,000)   $1.05/$1.03   130
13/03/13    1st   11   TJ Smith Stks (G1)   1200m   Luke Nolen 56.5kg   1   2nd Epaulette 56.5kg   3rd Bel Sprinter 58.5kg   1:09.65 (600m 36.09)   Dead4   $1,005,000 ($605,000)   $1.10/$1.16/$1.14   130

It might have been mentioned before but there's a new book on Tulloch from 2017 titled Tulloch - The Extraordinary Life and Times of a True Champion by Ken Linnett from Slattery Publishing.

It's a very interesting read. There's some fine descriptions of his races and plenty on the horses who raced against him.

Again I am sure Winx is well up to a challenge if she was asked.....but she never will be....and why would you?

She turns up every start, who else wasn't there? 

Winx beating up on the same horses time after time.....and getting a start(weight) off of them....it ain't really a fair fight is it?

It's WFA, pretty sure it's stood the test of time, or would you prefer if we tied one of her hooves behind her back so she has to hobble?

Like most people you have missed the point, Of course all the champs ran in WFA races........ Cos they were easy kills!!!!!!..........but they were never their Grand Finals, they were never set for a WFA campaign........they were never “peaked” for a Cox Plate etc, the Cox Plate was just in the right place at the right time........
They  nearly all ran in the “practice” stakes (McKinnon) too......using it as a barrier trial........your silly assumption is like saying they had more track gallops than they did real races
The difference is Winx only attempts the “easy kills” ...........and anyone who says that the WFA system has stood the test of time is a moron.........so has catch weight trials........that is like having a system for measuring how long a piece of string is..........most WFA races(especially with horses like Winx) would have the same result if she had another 10kg’s.......so how does that prove anything?
Just another stupid myth that you have heard that many times that you have stopped thinking and think it is fact......it ain’t.........there is no such thing as a fair WFA scale..........it always favours the best horse regardless of age........
When Winx was 4 it favoured 4year old mares, when she was 5 it favoured 5 year old mares........it was the same when Tulloch raced......Phar Lap had a huge advantage at WFA.........all the real champs did......That is why it was never considered a challenge.......they are just exhibition Gallops for champions...........if they had just run Tulloch in WFA races with the priority to keep him unbeaten he would have won many more races......Don’t you think?
I am not downplaying the great accomplishments of WINX........just compare apples with apples

Like that drongo Dom Bierne saying Winx was vulnerable because she was only producing A- runs, she was vulnerable if a couple of the others produced their A+ runs......he is a mathematician not a horse person.........Winx didn’t need to be at her peak in the lead ups..........Waller was always going to peak her for her final.........she was always going to win easy, obviously punters and Bookies thought the same..........for the first time I backed her........with every punting dollar I had,  she was a $1.01 chance paying $1.30........ an example of an educated idiot...........
You can’t apply normal maths to a Champ.........you can’t apply normal standards to Grand Final races............and you can’t apply today’s standards to Tulloch’s era

Yes all those easy kills of Cox Plates 

The assertion that she would not continue racing in Autumn after winning her 4th Cox Plate is a bit of a leap as well.
Why, if she is fine, would they stop?
Breeding barn opens its doors September, so there is no reason she would not race on.
World Cup in Dubai on dirt March 19....now that would be a great last race.
Perhaps her 3rd QE Stakes will be enough..would she better Tulloch then? Who knows who cares.

Dave

Given your comments on Winx what are your top 5 or 10 or whatever and what are your criteria. 

Eg if it's G1 handicap wins (inc retrospective) then does Super Impose get a look in?

I have been pondering this question from the time an ex AFL radio commentator said about 15 years ago that Bernborough was the best horse he ever saw (must have seen him retirement because I didn't think he was that old).  He now works for another radio station so I tuned in on the Mon after QE stks and he was raving about Winx so I perhaps he has changed his mind.

Cheers