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1
Racing Talk / Bill Waterhouse
« Last post by jfc on 39 minutes ago »
WSW deserves a far better effort from our media, rather than merely a copy/paste from Wiki.

This famous program provides some perspective, as well as colourful memories for some of us.

2
Racing Talk / V'Landys Gets a Gong
« Last post by Jeunes on 39 minutes ago »
But aren't you making my point? If my Aunty had balls......

The Australian Cup vs. The Ranvet I have it 1-1 with 1 draw over the past 3 years.

With the advent of the All Star Mile, trainers are likely to chase $5m ASM then $3m Doncaster or $4m QE2.

The $1.5m Australian Cup quality is going to get worse, not better with the ASM now being the major Melbourne autumn race.

Getting back on context, your definitive statement that the "Randwick Guineas and Ranvet Stakes are prime examples with the Australian Guineas and Australian Cup attracting better fields" does not measure up to scrutiny.

I disagree. They have better fields and let’s not get in arguments about winners because luck plays a big part in races too.

If I use a facetious argument that the prizemoney of the races would mean that the Randwick Guineas and Ranvet Stakes will attract an inferior field than in Melbourne for the same period, you would be jumping up and down.

But when I bring the same point about the Everest, you go off on a ridiculous tangent and not even answer if a $15 race will attract a better field than $10m.

Sydney needs a boost in the autumn with more prizemoney. The Ranvet Stakes has a prizemoney of $700k. The Hunter and the Gong has a prizemoney of $1m each.  Where is the money better spent? Surely a $500k prize for the Hunter and Gong with a bonus would be better and make the Ranvet a $1m race. That is better programming and more chance of having the Australian Cup horses backing up or running in the a Ranvet then the Tancred and / or QE. What a series especially chuck in a bonus  for horses that competed in each.

A $3m bonus for horses that wins all the big WFA races in Sydney instead of giving it to the Everest. This willl invigorate the WFA Racing in the Autumn in Sydney.

I would be open to even throwing a $3m bonus if a horse can win the triple crown in Sydney.

What an end to the Championship if horses were alive going to the last leg. Not chucking another $5m to a race that already has captivated the interest of everyone. Sydney is a leader when it comes to racing in most areas but we can always look at new ways of spreading it.

3
Racing Talk / V'Landys Gets a Gong
« Last post by PoisonPen7 on 1 hour ago »

Also how many of the All Star mike this year would have run in the Cup if the mile was not there. Hartnell jumps out but rest maybe not or a couple at the most. Field below.


But aren't you making my point? If my Aunty had balls......

The Australian Cup vs. The Ranvet I have it 1-1 with 1 draw over the past 3 years.

With the advent of the All Star Mile, trainers are likely to chase $5m ASM then $3m Doncaster or $4m QE2.

The $1.5m Australian Cup quality is going to get worse, not better with the ASM now being the major Melbourne autumn race.

Getting back on context, your definitive statement that the "Randwick Guineas and Ranvet Stakes are prime examples with the Australian Guineas and Australian Cup attracting better fields" does not measure up to scrutiny.
4
Racing Talk / V'Landys Gets a Gong
« Last post by PoisonPen7 on 1 hour ago »
The 2019 Australian Cup was won by Harlem beating 7yo mare Shillelagh and Trap For Fools who had won one G1 under the methods of Darren Weir.

The 2019 Ranvet was won by Avilius beating the UK G1 placed He's Eminent and dual NZ Group 1 winner Danzdanzdance

The 3 placegetters in the 2018 Australian Cup all ran in the Ranvet - so the "depth" was around the same.

The 2017 Australian Cup was a good quality race won by Humidor (under the methods of Weir) beating Jameka and both horses went to Sydney to run the quinella in reverse in the Tancred. In fact the Australian Cup trifecta ran the trifecta in the Tancred that year.

The Ranvet that year was run on a Heavy 10 with Our Ivanhowe (Germany G1 plus Doomben Cup) beating multi G1 winner Hartnell

5
Racing Talk / V'Landys Gets a Gong
« Last post by Jeunes on 1 hour ago »
Thank you Peter Mair.

Totally disagree. Field size has nothing to do with quality.

Have you not been watching Winx?

You must like the Peters.   :lol:

I actually alluded to Winx in an earlier post and what her retirement means as the wfa stars are weak.

Thus in your opinion if you have a very good horse in a field of 6-8 in a WFA G1 race racing against some handicappers, it is ok. I rather have 5-6 good horses with some handicappers in a 12 horse field as a better spectacle to watch.

PP, just admit quality of horses is not there. The bigger prizemoney will attract the bigger fields.

Also how many of the All Star mike this year would have run in the Cup if the mile was not there. Hartnell jumps out but rest maybe not or a couple at the most. Field below.

https://www.racenet.com.au/all-star-mile
6
Racing Talk / V'Landys Gets a Gong
« Last post by PoisonPen7 on 1 hour ago »
Gee, PP again you are being selective and not reading the posts correctly as usual.

My comment was on better fields and not winners. Majority of the time, the fields in Sydney are smaller and less in the quality aspect. Australian Guineas and Australian Cup have attracted better overall fields and bigger fields for open racing fields.

The Ranvet over the years has an average field of 8-10 runners max. The quality is at the top but the depth is not there.

On a side note, Mosheen was the only winner of both according to the results. Dissident won more G1s than Le Romain. I would put Shamus Award up there too as he won the Cox Plate too. Carnegie Express should have won the triple crown if the jockey did not go too early in the Derby. Preferment was underrated compared to a couple. VRC Derby and a few other G1s too. Old Comrade beat Northerly too.

Interesting when you look at the Guineas races, how many of them did not go on to big race wins as 4yo or up.

Thank you Peter Mair.

Totally disagree. Field size has nothing to do with quality.

Have you not been watching Winx?
7
Racing Talk / V'Landys Gets a Gong
« Last post by PoisonPen7 on 1 hour ago »

Randwick Guineas and Ranvet Stakes are prime examples with the Australian Guineas and Australian Cup attracting better fields.

In fact when you think about it the VRC has almost sacrificed the Australian Cup for the All Star Mile.

Trainers of good horses aimed at the ASM are not going to be having their lead up race over 2000m then dropping them back to 1600m.

The Australian Cup is likely to be populated with stayers going to Sydney for the Tancred and Sydney Cup.

ASM horses are more likely to go on to Sydney for the Doncaster and the QE2.

The quality of the Australian up can only suffer with the advent of the All Star Mile.

8
Racing Talk / V'Landys Gets a Gong
« Last post by Jeunes on 1 hour ago »
Gee, PP again you are being selective and not reading the posts correctly as usual.

My comment was on better fields and not winners. Majority of the time, the fields in Sydney are smaller and less in the quality aspect. Australian Guineas and Australian Cup have attracted better overall fields and bigger fields for open racing fields.

The Ranvet over the years has an average field of 8-10 runners max. The quality is at the top but the depth is not there.

On a side note, Mosheen was the only winner of both according to the results. Dissident won more G1s than Le Romain. I would put Shamus Award up there too as he won the Cox Plate too. Carnegie Express should have won the triple crown if the jockey did not go too early in the Derby. Preferment was underrated compared to a couple. VRC Derby and a few other G1s too. Old Comrade beat Northerly too.

Interesting when you look at the Guineas races, how many of them did not go on to big race wins as 4yo or up.
9
Racing Talk / V'Landys Gets a Gong
« Last post by PoisonPen7 on 2 hours ago »

Randwick Guineas and Ranvet Stakes are prime examples with the Australian Guineas and Australian Cup attracting better fields.

Geez you have a knack of chucking in false premise statements that just don't stand up to scrutiny.

Randwick (previously Canterbury) Guineas vs Australian Guineas since 2000

Highlighted ones are my opinion of top class. I would have the Randwick Guineas ahead comfortably.

Year Randwick Guineas Australian Guineas
2019 The Autumn Sun (AUS) 2015 Mystic Journey (AUS) 2015
2018 Kementari (AUS) 2014 Grunt (NZ) 2014
2017 Inference (AUS) 2013 Hey Doc (AUS) 2013
2016 Le Romain (AUS) 2012 Palentino (AUS) 2012
2015 Hallowed Crown (AUS) 2011 Wandjina (AUS) 2011
2014 Dissident (AUS) 2010 Shamus Award (AUS) 2010
2013 Dundeel (NZ) 2009 Ferlax (NZ) 2009
2012 Mosheen (AUS) 2008 Mosheen (AUS) 2008
2011 Ilovethiscity (AUS) 2007 Shamrocker (NZ) 2007
2010 Shoot Out (AUS) 2006 Rock Classic (AUS) 2006
2009 Metal Bender (NZ) 2005 Heart Of Dreams (AUS) 2005
2008 Weekend Hussler (AUS) 2004 Light Fantastic (AUS) 2004
2007 Mentality (AUS) 2003 Miss Finland (AUS) 2003
2006 Hotel Grand (AUS) 2002 Apache Cat (AUS) 2002
2005 Jymcarew (AUS) 2001 Al Maher (AUS) 2001
2004 Niello (AUS) 2000 Reset (AUS) 2000
2003 Fine Society (AUS) 1999 Delago Brom (AUS) 1999
2002 Carnegie Express (NZ) 1998 Dash For Cash (AUS) 1998
2001 Universal Prince (AUS) 1997 Mr. Murphy (AUS) 1997

Both the Ranvet and the Australian Cup have seen better days.

Year Ranvet Australian Cup
2019 Avilius (GB) 2014 Harlem (GB) 2012
2018 Gailo Chop (FR) 2011 Harlem (GB) 2012
2017 Our Ivanhowe (GER) 2010 Humidor (NZ) 2012
2016 The United States (IRE) 2010 Preferment (NZ) 2011
2015 Contributer (IRE) 2010 Spillway (GB) 2010
2014 Silent Achiever (NZ) 2008 Fiorente (IRE) 2008
2013 Foreteller (GB) 2007 Super Cool (AUS) 2009
2012 Manighar (FR) 2006 Manighar (FR) 2006
2011 Zavite (NZ) 2002 Shocking (AUS) 2005
2010 Theseo (AUS) 2003 Zipping (AUS) 2001
2009 Theseo (AUS) 2003 Niconero (AUS) 2001
2008 Tuesday Joy (NZ) 2003 Sirmione (AUS) 2003
2007 Desert War (AUS) 2000 Pompeii Ruler (AUS) 2002
2006 Eremein (AUS) 2001 Roman Arch (AUS) 1998
2005 Grand Armee (AUS) 1998 Makybe Diva (GB) 1999
2004 Sound Action (AUS) 1999 Lonhro (AUS) 1998
2003 Republic Lass (AUS) 1998 Northerly (AUS) 1996
2002 Universal Prince (AUS) 1997 Old Comrade (AUS) 1997
2001 Tie The Knot (AUS) 1994 Northerly (AUS) 1996
10
Racing Talk / Bill Waterhouse
« Last post by PoisonPen7 on 2 hours ago »
Legendary bookmaker Bill Waterhouse dead at 97, son Robbie confirms

Bill Waterhouse, the former barrister who became a bookmaker and broke several fearless punters, has died. He was 97.

The patriarch of a bookmaking dynasty – that has included son Robbie and grandson Tom – Bill will be indelibly linked to the Fine Cotton episode surrounding the ring-in that tainted the family name.

Robbie Waterhouse announced his father’s passing on Twitter on Friday morning.

“Very sad that we have lost my father, Bill Waterhouse. He left us peacefully with his family by his side. He was in great spirits till the end. He enjoyed a great day with all his great-grandchildren last Sunday,” Waterhouse wrote.

One of the biggest bookies to field in Australia at the height of his power, Waterhouse pioneered a family of bookmakers in Robbie — who is married to champion trainer Gai.

Robbie and grandson Tom followed Bill into the bookmaking game.

He hung up his bookies bag in 2010, and son Robbie told The Daily Telegraph his father had “become more frail over time”.

Paying tribute to his father, Robbie said Bill had lived “an extraordinary life”.

Once the biggest bookmaker in the world, the qualified barrister was a colourful racing figure, carving out his name in the bookies ring especially in the 1960s and 70s.

He was known for his boldness and willingness to go head-to-head with leviathan punters such as Ray Hopkins, ‘Hong Kong Tiger’ Frank Duval and ‘The Filipino Fireball’ Filipe Ysmael.

Losing $1 million in a day

His fearless attitude led to him losing $1 million in a single day in 1968 and he subsequently became widely regarded as the biggest gambler in the world.

Known as the ‘king of the bookies’ for his dominance of the betting ring, Waterhouse was reported to often hold more than the Totalisator during his prime.

In 1984, Waterhouse and Robbie were stripped of their bookmaking licences when the Australian Jockey Club alleged they had prior knowledge of the Fine Cotton ‘ring-in’ scandal.

Bill Waterhouse always maintained his innocence and in 2002 had his bookmaking licence reinstated in order to train his grandson Tom in the business. He retired from bookmaking in 2010 at the age of 88.


https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/horse-racing/legendary-bookmaker-bill-waterhouse-dead-at-97-son-robbie-confirms/

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