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AFL 2015 - Sports Talk - Racehorse TALK

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Online PoisonPen7

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« 2015-Mar-31, 11:20 PM Reply #25 »
They know what was found on the premises but they can't prove that the players were injected with it. 

It should have been that Essendon proved they didn't inject their players with a banned substance. 

But even if we agree to your notion that "Essendon" prove that "they"didn't inject their players, which players?

Do you assume all players are guilty?

You can think someone is guilty to all hell, like most people did about Lindy Chamberlain. But if there is no evidence, there is no case. It has to be that way. Otherwise we are living in very dangerous times where someone could easily be convicted without ironclad evidence. It is especially a worry in "The Age Of Information" where everyone can say whatever they want under the disguise of anonymity over the internet.

The references to "Essendon" as opposed to any specific people - for a start that is a real worry.  :what:

Offline firezuki

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« 2015-Mar-31, 11:44 PM Reply #26 »
Mate, if the tax office says you have cheated them of $10,000 it's up to YOU to prove you didn't.  

Danks didn't even have to testify.  Ridiculous.  
« Last Edit: 2015-Apr-01, 04:00 AM by firezuki »

Offline ricochet88

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« 2015-Apr-01, 07:14 AM Reply #27 »
But even if we agree to your notion that "Essendon" prove that "they"didn't inject their players, which players?

Do you assume all players are guilty?

You can think someone is guilty to all hell, like most people did about Lindy Chamberlain. But if there is no evidence, there is no case. It has to be that way. Otherwise we are living in very dangerous times where someone could easily be convicted without ironclad evidence. It is especially a worry in "The Age Of Information" where everyone can say whatever they want under the disguise of anonymity over the internet.

The references to "Essendon" as opposed to any specific people - for a start that is a real worry.  :what:

I cant find the thread with my original thoughts on this whole sorry saga but I have always maintained that there should have been no charges if they didnt have the evidence . I am sure that Danks would have been charged before his next breakfast if there was a shred of evidence.

The behaviour of the NRL and the AFL has been very amateurish and the Sharks obviously took the guilty plea to try and finish the whole saga but in the long term that doesnt do anyone any good.

Will be interesting to see the spin Becky and Buzz put on the finding in the Smellygraph.

Of course the public will be the ones who suffer out of this whole sorry mess  as the Govt. will have to pay any compensation and I am sure there are Lawyers licking their lips at the thought of suing ASADA and any other body they think they can get money out of.

I still cant work out why Cronulla caved when Danks and his supposed henchmen were never even formally interviewed let alone charged.  :what:

                                                                                                                       Ricochet  :chin:

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2015-Apr-01, 07:44 AM Reply #28 »
Now that the players have been proven not guilty some more background to the case has come to light.

A.Of the four investigators who probed the Bombers only one is left , in fact two of those previously worked at Victoria's Office of Police Integrity, which was abolished in 2012 over concerns about its internal processes.  :chin:

B.AFL CEO, Andrew Demetriou, who has since moved onto to greener pastures at Crown, and AFL chairman, Mike Fitzpatrick, an ex Carlton captain, both at diffrent times directly and indirectly both wanted Hird to resign or be sacked, or least be suspended based on what ASADA had leaked to them.You can throw into that same boat Caroline Wilson ( The Age ) and Patrick Smith ( The Australian ) both of whom in receipt of leaks from ASADA never let up on Hird and the Bombers.Perhaps an apology from all four of those individuals is in the offing. :rolleyes:

C. Some in the wider community fell for ASADA's leakage to those journalists that Essendon were being investigated for the use of 35 different drugs, when in reality, it was only one that was alleged.

D.Some still believe the players  and the club "got off". A $2 million fine, loss of draft picks and booted out of the 2013 finals are hardly " getting off".

E. Back in 2013 Demetriou hailed the AFL's joint investigation with ASADA of Essendon's supplements program as the "template" of future drug probes.In view of his departure from the AFL and the departure of 3/4 of ASADA's investigators it is now apparent who has egg all over his face.     :biggrin:   

F. To save face apparently ASADA has frozen samples taken from the players in 2012 and will "reserve the right" to test for traces of the banned Thymosin beta-4 as testing technology advances.

FZ: Re tax issues. Under legislation the ATO are obliged to administer the Taxation Act, and over time rulings have been made by the ATO to interpret that Act. If a taxpayer is not happy with the ATO's interpretation he has every right to challenge that interpretation, of course few do, because if they have cheated they know they have no case. or if they are fighting over an amount that is out of proportion to the likely legal costs to fight their case, they accept the ATO's ruling.
« Last Edit: 2015-Apr-01, 09:22 AM by Bubbasmith »

Offline betupbob

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« 2015-Apr-01, 07:54 AM Reply #29 »
essendon to become the richest club in the afl if they wish to sue

Online PoisonPen7

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« 2015-Apr-01, 10:06 AM Reply #30 »

I still cant work out why Cronulla caved when Danks and his supposed henchmen were never even formally interviewed let alone charged.  :what:

                                                                                                                 Ricochet  :chin:

No idea either mate.

Perhaps lawyers supplied by the club and supposed to be acting for the players probably acting in the best interests of the club and not the players?

Advised their clients that the plea was "too good to be true" and to take it. Added with pressure from the club and the NRL.

Gallen is openly pissed off that he was forced into taking a guilty plea. Probably has a good case to sue his lawyer.

The whole Cronulla saga is disgusting, with the club's reputation left in tatters, and the effect on the team is obvious.

Offline Lert

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« 2015-Apr-01, 10:18 AM Reply #31 »
Bubba, very amused by your assertion that Essendon, Hird and the players have been "proven not guilty".   :lol:   :lol:   :lol:

Of course, nothing remotely like that happened. :no:

The AFL panel failed to prove exactly which drug was administered to the players.
They know that Thymosin was definately used in the drug program.
Was it Thymosin Alpha or Thymosin Beta that was administered?
Was it administered to every player, or just some, and if so specifically which ones?

The AFL panel ruled that because they could not prove specifically which drug was used on specifically which player, they could not find any individual player proven guilty.
The decision relates only to the individual players and has nothing to do with charges against Hird or the Essendon Club.
Nor does it assert anyone has been proven not guilty, simply that there is insufficient evidence to find individual players guilty.

Anyone who interprets the above as "proven not guilty" is living in cloud cuckoo land.

It will be a very sad day if Hird and the Essendon Club do get off because it can not be proven specifically which players were administered specifically which drug even though it has been established that the club did have a program of administering a range of illicit drugs to a large number of players.

Hopefully the charges against Hird and the Club will stick as they unquestionably were involved in an extremely unsavoury drug cheating program.

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2015-Apr-01, 02:13 PM Reply #32 »
Lert, are you suggesting that because ASADA could not prove that Thymosin Alpha and/or Thymosin Beta was used on specifically which player, the tribunal could not prove guilt ?

I read the tribunal judgement as that they could not prove Thymosin Beta , the only drug outlawed,  was ever used, they could not prove guilt.

The only grounds for penalising the Club and Hird are on governance , for which they have already being penalised. Hird was unemployed for twelve months and lost income for that year, and the Club has paid a $2 million fine, lost draft picks and was kicked out of the 2013 finals when they had qualified.

BTW you claim they administered a "range of illicit drugs'', pray tell, as far as I am aware the ASADA case was based on the use of only one illicit drug, Thymosin Beta.  
« Last Edit: 2015-Apr-01, 02:19 PM by Bubbasmith »

Offline Lert

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« 2015-Apr-01, 02:58 PM Reply #33 »
Lert, are you suggesting that because ASADA could not prove that Thymosin Alpha and/or Thymosin Beta was used on specifically which player, the tribunal could not prove guilt ?

I read the tribunal judgement as that they could not prove Thymosin Beta , the only drug outlawed,  was ever used, they could not prove guilt.

The only grounds for penalising the Club and Hird are on governance , for which they have already being penalised. Hird was unemployed for twelve months and lost income for that year, and the Club has paid a $2 million fine, lost draft picks and was kicked out of the 2013 finals when they had qualified.

BTW you claim they administered a "range of illicit drugs'', pray tell, as far as I am aware the ASADA case was based on the use of only one illicit drug, Thymosin Beta.  

That is not what I am suggesting.
It is what the AFL panel are saying.
I am suggesting that the AFL panel were looking for any excuse to stop this thing in its tracks.
Hopefully ASADA will appeal the finding and have the matter dealt with properly.

Despite all their posturing, Essendon have not cooperated at all with the investigation. :no:
A key issue for the investigators, once having established that the club was procuring banned substances and was administering them to a large number of players, was to discover which players were receiving which drugs and when.
However, all of Essendons records covering that aspect of the program "went missing". :whistle:
The Club are saying no records were ever kept! :o

Can you imagine a large professional football club conducting a "supplements" program of that magnitude were not bothering to record what treatment was given to what players, what doses, what frequency, in what combinations etc?
Beggars belief doesn't it?
They are supposed to be highly qualified professionals.
It is pretty obvious that the treatment records provided damning evidence of the guilt of all concerned and that is why they are not available to the investigators.
The Club are denying the very existence of them.

What upstanding citizens they all are! :thumbsd:

Offline firezuki

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« 2015-Apr-01, 03:12 PM Reply #34 »
Spot on, Lert. 

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2015-Apr-01, 04:32 PM Reply #35 »
Lert you wrote "A key issue for the investigators, once having established that the club was procuring banned substances and was administering them to a large number of players, was to discover which players were receiving which drugs and when."

If the investigators established the club was procuring banned substances why did they only prosecute one banned substance ? If they had that evidence why stop at one substance ?

They were on a fishing mission in the hope that the players , Dank and Hird would self incriminate.

Offline Lert

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« 2015-Apr-01, 04:53 PM Reply #36 »
Mate, are you a died in the wool Essendon supporter?
You seem very intent on seeing them get off despite overwhelmimg evidence that they are drug cheats.

Sure they may have been able to muddy the water, hide evidence and lie well enough to prevent a conviction from being secured.
That will entitle them to a continuing "presumption of innocence".
That does not in any way translate to "proven not guilty".

Offline firezuki

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« 2015-Apr-01, 05:10 PM Reply #37 »
If the Essendon hierarchy and players were innocent, they would have fully cooperated.  They did not. 

A banned substance was found at the club and of course there were many rumours floating around too.

Obviously you cannot act or condemn on rumours but usually where there is smoke there is fire. 

Cousins was a perfect example except he didn't even test positive for any substance. 

Note his behaviour in the past and more recently.  But back then there were plenty of rumours. 

 

Online PoisonPen7

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« 2015-Apr-01, 05:22 PM Reply #38 »
Mate, are you a died in the wool Essendon supporter?
You seem very intent on seeing them get off despite overwhelmimg evidence that they are drug cheats.

Sure they may have been able to muddy the water, hide evidence and lie well enough to prevent a conviction from being secured.
That will entitle them to a continuing "presumption of innocence".
That does not in any way translate to "proven not guilty".

Agree with you about "proven not guilty" being true Lert.

However, I am alarmed that there seems to be a solid core of people saying something like "I think Essendon are guilty based on what I have read in the newspapers so they should be punished based on that".

You must have evidience. It cannot be any other way.

ASADA needs to improve it's investigative techniques. It needs to gather solid evidence. Not having enough evidence and thinking that you can gain a conviction by leaking stuff to their selected mates in the media and hoping they whip up a frenzy is pretty scary stuff.

Do you believe every word in those "investigative reports" on things like 60 Minutes and Today Tonight/A Current Affair?

I have first hand knowledge of an investigative report run on A Current Affair that was close to being a fabrication. The woman who was libelled by the report received  a hefty payout but had to sign a non-disclosure agreement so the general public never got to find out what lies ACA was feeding them.

Do you honestly think that Rebecca Wilson and Paddy Smith are people whose written words are what we should be basing any convictions on???

And in the absence of any evidence  :what:

Offline Lert

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« 2015-Apr-01, 06:21 PM Reply #39 »
Mate if you read my posts you won't find any suggestion that these guys or the club should be punished without being proven guilty first.
My argument revolved around the point that, just because the panel did not convict, doesn't mean they were "proven not guilty".
The decision simply conveys that the weight of evidence before the panel was not sufficient to secure a conviction.

It is legitimate for a tribunal not to convict on the basis that the weight of evidence was not strong enough.
At the same time it is legitimate for observers looking at the same evidence to surmise that they were guilty.
This is very reasonable given that the tribunal and the observer are using two different standards of proof to reach their decision.
One is looking at something approaching "beyond a reasonable doubt" and the other is using "the balance of probabilities".

As for A Current Affair, Today Tonight, Sixty Minutes (and most newspapers for that matter), I don't watch or read them at all any more.
They have no journalistic integrity whatsoever and will not hesitate to fabricate stories and tell outright lies to make a story work for them.
They don't occasionally tell lies, it is their everyday modus operandi.
Anyone who relies solely on what they get from such sources will be seriously deluded. 

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2015-Apr-01, 06:48 PM Reply #40 »
Mate, are you a died in the wool Essendon supporter?
You seem very intent on seeing them get off despite overwhelmimg evidence that they are drug cheats.

Sure they may have been able to muddy the water, hide evidence and lie well enough to prevent a conviction from being secured.
That will entitle them to a continuing "presumption of innocence".
That does not in any way translate to "proven not guilty".

Yes I support Essendon, how do you know there was overwhelming evidence ? Did you attend the tribunal hearing ? Are you relying on the leaks given to those journalists or do you have some other sources to assume there is overwhelming evidence ? In an early post I made mention that 3/4 of the investigators of Essendon have left ASADA and 2 of them, at one time, worked for the Integrity Unit of the Victoria Police and there were questions over internal processes at that Unit.

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2015-Apr-01, 07:51 PM Reply #41 »
Obviously Collingwood and Carlton supporters have done their best to discredit the Bombers.


Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2015-Apr-02, 08:15 AM Reply #42 »
In this morning's Fairfax press ASADA has claimed Essendon lost or destroyed incriminating evidence that players were injected with Thymosin Beta 4 ( TB4 ). In that is true, surely in presenting their case to the AFL tribunal ASADA would have argued that case, however the tribunal must have considered that argument to come to their decision.

Further evidence at the tribunal has been disclosed..

1. Shane Charter imported what he believed was TB4 and arranged for it to be compounded. As anyone knows, what is imported from China is not necessarily what it is supposed to be. Fake products using named brands have been sold all around the world for years.  
2. The compounder believed he was compounding the TB4 delivered by Charter.
3. The compounder dispensed 26 vials of what he believed to be TB4 to Dank. The lab technician at the compounder believed she compounded 15 vials of TB4.


ASADA's evidence, in their eyes, might have been compelling, but  in the eyes of the tribunal because minimal testing was conducted at the laboratory they dismissed the evidence of those who might have known as unreliable.

At every stage the tribunal failed to be comfortably satisfied that was purported to be, was in fact TB4. Because of the doubt of whether Charter had actually purchased TB4, the tribunal did not question whether Dank administered the drug to the players.


Although I understand the reasons the tribunal found in favour of the players, I, like others, question the governance at the Club, however I reiterate the Club was fined $2 million, lost draft picks and was rubbed out of the 2013 finals.Hird was banished for coaching for one season and lost $1 million in income, the then president is gone and so have the CEO and other staff. What else do Collingwood and Carlton supporters want ? Hird's head on a plate ?
« Last Edit: 2015-Apr-02, 08:32 AM by Bubbasmith »

Offline Lert

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« 2015-Apr-02, 08:55 AM Reply #43 »
In this morning's Fairfax press ASADA has claimed Essendon lost or destroyed incriminating evidence that players were injected with Thymosin Beta 4 ( TB4 ). In that is true, surely in presenting their case to the AFL tribunal ASADA would have argued that case, however the tribunal must have considered that argument to come to their decision.

Further evidence at the tribunal has been disclosed..

1. Shane Charter imported what he believed was TB4 and arranged for it to be compounded. As anyone knows, what is imported from China is not necessarily what it is supposed to be. Fake products using named brands have been sold all around the world for years.  
2. The compounder believed he was compounding the TB4 delivered by Charter.
3. The compounder dispensed 26 vials of what he believed to be TB4 to Dank. The lab technician at the compounder believed she compounded 15 vials of TB4.


ASADA's evidence, in their eyes, might have been compelling, but  in the eyes of the tribunal because minimal testing was conducted at the laboratory they dismissed the evidence of those who might have known as unreliable.

At every stage the tribunal failed to be comfortably satisfied that was purported to be, was in fact TB4. Because of the doubt of whether Charter had actually purchased TB4, the tribunal did not question whether Dank administered the drug to the players.


Although I understand the reasons the tribunal found in favour of the players, I, like others, question the governance at the Club, however I reiterate the Club was fined $2 million, lost draft picks and was rubbed out of the 2013 finals.Hird was banished for coaching for one season and lost $1 million in income, the then president is gone and so have the CEO and other staff. What else do Collingwood and Carlton supporters want ? Hird's head on a plate ?
So the Club purchased a substance they believed to be TB4.
They administered it to a large number of their players.
That has been definitely established.

However, because no-one had the substance tested in a lab to confirm it actually was TB4, and because it came from China where drug counterfeiting is known to go on, we can't be 100% positive it actually was TB4.
So the Club should not be held accountable for its actions because their is a tiny chance they were getting conned by their drug dealer?
Then, because the Club has destroyed or hidden its records as to exactly who was injected, with exactly what, we can't prove any individual player guilty either.
So they have all been proven not guilty?  :sick:
Lets all move on. Nothing to see here. :whistle:
You really do think in strange ways Bubba. :shrug: 

The thing about Hird is; Yes he has been punished for some of what he did and has served his time for that.
But the question now is; Is he a fit and proper person to have as coach of a football club?
I think the answer is a clear and emphatic; No! :no:

Offline Jeunes

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« 2015-Apr-02, 10:47 AM Reply #44 »
So the Club purchased a substance they believed to be TB4.
They administered it to a large number of their players.
That has been definitely established.

However, because no-one had the substance tested in a lab to confirm it actually was TB4, and because it came from China where drug counterfeiting is known to go on, we can't be 100% positive it actually was TB4.
So the Club should not be held accountable for its actions because their is a tiny chance they were getting conned by their drug dealer?
Then, because the Club has destroyed or hidden its records as to exactly who was injected, with exactly what, we can't prove any individual player guilty either.
So they have all been proven not guilty?  :sick:
Lets all move on. Nothing to see here. :whistle:
You really do think in strange ways Bubba. :shrug: 

The thing about Hird is; Yes he has been punished for some of what he did and has served his time for that.
But the question now is; Is he a fit and proper person to have as coach of a football club?
I think the answer is a clear and emphatic; No! :no:


Thus the players were not guilty because there was no way to prove the substances injected into them were performance enhancing due to the way Essendon kept it's records.

The question of the presumption of innocence must fall on the players especially if they did not know what was in the needles. I for one don't understand why you would not question what was in the needles but then again if my coach (respected legend) and / or doctors / support staff advised it was vitamins etc, I would not question it if I was an up and comer.

The blame fairly falls on Essendon and Hird for it's lack of duty of care. Have they been punished enough, that is the debate.

Similar to Flannagan in the NRL what time period is fair enough for a person to return to their previous occupation. A year could be classified as long enough. The coaches are not medically qualified so they do have to go on the advice of suitable staff. If it was proven they went against their advice, they should get a lot longer than a year.

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2015-Apr-02, 11:50 AM Reply #45 »
So the Club purchased a substance they believed to be TB4.
They administered it to a large number of their players.
That has been definitely established.

However, because no-one had the substance tested in a lab to confirm it actually was TB4, and because it came from China where drug counterfeiting is known to go on, we can't be 100% positive it actually was TB4.
So the Club should not be held accountable for its actions because their is a tiny chance they were getting conned by their drug dealer?
Then, because the Club has destroyed or hidden its records as to exactly who was injected, with exactly what, we can't prove any individual player guilty either.
So they have all been proven not guilty?  :sick:
Lets all move on. Nothing to see here. :whistle:
You really do think in strange ways Bubba. :shrug:  

The thing about Hird is; Yes he has been punished for some of what he did and has served his time for that.
But the question now is; Is he a fit and proper person to have as coach of a football club?
I think the answer is a clear and emphatic; No! :no:



Lert, you do not get it.

Charter, who purchased the drug from China, was not or has ever been employed by Essendon. Dank, who commissioned Charter, deceived Essendon and told them he was getting Thymosin Alpha not Thymosin Beta 4. Therefore the CLub believed they were purchasing Thymosin Alpha, which was NOT banned.

I have no issue that injecting players was a governance issue, however the Club  clearly believed it was not a banned drug.

The utterings of Ben Mc Devitt ( ASADA ) since the judgement reek of desperation. He will not own up to a farcical investigation ASADA ran for over two years, which says more about it and its efforts to ensure survival as a relevant and professional body.Its relationship with the former ALP government and the AFL was an exercise in self preservation, rather than a body created to control the drug issue within sport.
[/quote]
« Last Edit: 2015-Apr-02, 11:57 AM by Bubbasmith »

Offline Lert

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« 2015-Apr-02, 01:11 PM Reply #46 »
OK Bubba, I grant you that there is a lot here to be clarified and explained by various parties.
But I note you haven't commented on Essendon hiding the books recording the treatments administered to each of their players.
Remember this is supposed to be one of the most highly professional sporting outfits in the country running a leading edge/experimental supplements program on a group of the nation's elite atheletes.
Obviously they would be keeping meticulous records.
Even if they were not concerned about the welfare of their players they would be wanting to know who got what so they can work out for future use what treatments work and which don't.

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2015-Apr-02, 02:28 PM Reply #47 »
I am not commenting on which I know little, but did they hide the books or lose them ? ASADA would no doubt say they hide them.  I am none the wiser, your final paragraph is a reasonable assumption, but if they were lost they will never know the answers.

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2015-Apr-02, 04:19 PM Reply #48 »
I am not commenting on which I know little,



  :lol:  Convenient

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2015-Apr-02, 04:25 PM Reply #49 »

My argument revolved around the point that, just because the panel did not convict, doesn't mean they were "proven not guilty". 




Put simply, the AFL appointed panel found that the AFL was squeaky clean. Move on, the marketing people have done job. code given bill of health :chin:


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