Chris Waller - Trainer - Racehorse TALK harm-plan

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Chris Waller - Trainer - Racehorse TALK

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Offline nemisis

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« 2019-Dec-01, 11:27 AM Reply #450 »
https://www.punters.com.au/news/dual-doncaster-winner-sacred-falls-dies_186152/

Dead at 10 with liver problems!

"Can furosemide cause liver damage?
Furosemide can cause very low electrolyte levels, which can cause serious liver damage and loss of brain function."
https://www.healthline.com/
https://www.healthline.com/www.healthline.com health furosemide-oral-tablet

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Dec-02, 12:58 PM Reply #451 »
https://www.punters.com.au/news/dual-doncaster-winner-sacred-falls-dies_186152/

Dead at 10 with liver problems!

"Can furosemide cause liver damage?
Furosemide can cause very low electrolyte levels, which can cause serious liver damage and loss of brain function."
https://www.healthline.com/
https://www.healthline.com/www.healthline.com health furosemide-oral-tablet

So the "theory" goes that the effects of the usage of the drug lay dormant for...six years or so?....and then all of a sudden two weeks ago it manifests itself and this is the cause of the horse's death?

Thank you Ben Casey.

Offline nemisis

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« 2019-Dec-02, 02:30 PM Reply #452 »
Well it's not 6 years but 4 1/2 since his last dose....... but I'd say yes.

I would imagine a horse like humans can live on a bit with liver disease........until it becomes acute.

C Waller's theory about Lasix putting longevity into his horses seems flawed, there just doesn't seem to be any evidence......certainly no Crafty Cruiser's in the stable......a couple of good years at the joint would be more the norm.

If it does in fact stop some horses from having a major bleed, is that the basis for all of his horses to get dosed up?
 
https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/waller-up-front-following-lasix-positive-shared-archive/

8 times over the threshold is a lot of Lasix!.......do wonder if a lot of his retired geldings are keeping the best of health?

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Dec-02, 04:56 PM Reply #453 »
Well it's not 6 years but 4 1/2 since his last dose....... but I'd say yes.

I would imagine a horse like humans can live on a bit with liver disease........until it becomes acute.


You would "imagine" that. Would you?

I have no idea about the long term use of diuretics in horses.

In humans it has a half life of 2 hours

This applies to vets:

TOXICOLOGY: Furosemide demonstrates a very low order of either acute or chronic toxicity. The drug is rapidly absorbed and excreted by both glomerular filtration and tubular secretion. The rates of excretion are of such magnitude that cumulation of furosemide does not occur despite repeated administrations.

https://www.drugs.com/vet/furosemide-tablets.html

I don't think your theory holds up to scrutiny.


Offline nemisis

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« 2019-Dec-03, 08:16 AM Reply #454 »
What have you produced here?

A Furosemide promotional piece by a .com company almost certainly sponsored by drug companies........has references dated back to the sixties (around the time when Thalidomide was a wonder drug)........and with warnings and precautions that would have any sensible person or Veterinarian asking for more information please!

It probably reinforces my belief that Sacred Falls, the magnificent thoroughbred that he was, suffered liver damage from his 2 years of Furosemide treatment in the Waller stable.

If you want to tackle C Waller's theory that Lasix/Furosemide gives longevity to his horses .........well go ahead......it would be nice to see some proof.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Dec-04, 09:55 AM Reply #455 »
What have you produced here?

A Furosemide promotional piece by a .com company almost certainly sponsored by drug companies........has references dated back to the sixties (around the time when Thalidomide was a wonder drug)........and with warnings and precautions that would have any sensible person or Veterinarian asking for more information please!

It probably reinforces my belief that Sacred Falls, the magnificent thoroughbred that he was, suffered liver damage from his 2 years of Furosemide treatment in the Waller stable.

If you want to tackle C Waller's theory that Lasix/Furosemide gives longevity to his horses .........well go ahead......it would be nice to see some proof.

So you are saying that the web site drugs.com.au is inaccurate.

Specifically, that the statement they make:

TOXICOLOGY: Furosemide demonstrates a very low order of either acute or chronic toxicity. The drug is rapidly absorbed and excreted by both glomerular filtration and tubular secretion. The rates of excretion are of such magnitude that cumulation of furosemide does not occur despite repeated administrations.

is inaccurate, and that your contention that Lasix can lie latent in the system for several years and then all of a sudden kill the horse is more accurate.

Do you have any credible sources for your claim other than your own words?

Offline nemisis

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« 2019-Dec-04, 10:42 AM Reply #456 »
If a drug company uses terms around one of it's products like "demonstrates a very low order of either acute or chronic toxicity".......I would say beware!
It means acute or chronic toxicity has occurred, somewhere......maybe not a lot, but does occur......drug companies are hardly known for their honesty.

I'm saying more accurate information elsewhere.

Has it's place in the medical world for sure but if you can tell me why fit healthy thoroughbreds need to be filled with this shit, then please.....go ahead.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Dec-04, 12:16 PM Reply #457 »
If a drug company uses terms around one of it's products like "demonstrates a very low order of either acute or chronic toxicity".......I would say beware!
It means acute or chronic toxicity has occurred, somewhere......maybe not a lot, but does occur......drug companies are hardly known for their honesty.

I'm saying more accurate information elsewhere.

Has it's place in the medical world for sure but if you can tell me why fit healthy thoroughbreds need to be filled with this shit, then please.....go ahead.

drugs.com is not a drug company.

It is an informational site.

Where are the sources for your "theory" as requested?

You mightn't like to hear this but you stating "I'm saying more accurate information elsewhere" is not a credible source.

Where is this "elsewhere"?

Can't you accept that your theory may be wrong?

Does your narcissism know no bounds  :what:

Offline nemisis

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« 2019-Dec-04, 01:41 PM Reply #458 »
Furosemide can cause very low electrolyte levels, which can cause serious liver damage and loss of brain function.
https://www.healthline.com/
https://www.healthline.com/www.healthline.com health furosemide-oral-tablet

Furosemide | Side Effects, Dosage, Uses & More - Healthline

https://cashkaro.com/blog/lasix-uses-dosage-side-effects-precautions-more/42961( note liver enlargement)

Nowhere did I state Drugs.com was a drug company......I said they have published a piece supplied to them by the manufacturers of Furosemide.

The whole point here is just how much of this stuff is being used by C Waller.

Junoob tested 8 times over the threshold in the late afternoon, after his race.......yet he was dosed up at 3.30am on that morning .....that's a lot of lasix!

« Last Edit: 2019-Dec-04, 01:54 PM by nemisis »

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Dec-04, 03:55 PM Reply #459 »
Furosemide can cause very low electrolyte levels, which can cause serious liver damage and loss of brain function.
https://www.healthline.com/
https://www.healthline.com/www.healthline.com health furosemide-oral-tablet

Furosemide | Side Effects, Dosage, Uses & More - Healthline

https://cashkaro.com/blog/lasix-uses-dosage-side-effects-precautions-more/42961( note liver enlargement)

Nowhere did I state Drugs.com was a drug company......I said they have published a piece supplied to them by the manufacturers of Furosemide.

The whole point here is just how much of this stuff is being used by C Waller.

Junoob tested 8 times over the threshold in the late afternoon, after his race.......yet he was dosed up at 3.30am on that morning .....that's a lot of lasix!

The first url looks like a spam web site and the second one says "site not found".

The third web site, an Indian site called cashkaro.com (and you were questioning the validity of drugs.com), has a reference to "liver enlargement" as a side effect of Lasix but that would be a short term side effect as pharm. companies are required to list.

BTW on that third site I wouldn't allow notifications if I were you.

You have not shown one shred of evidence to support your latest conspiracy theory about Chris Waller.

Given all the Lasix administered to horses racing in the US it would be common knowledge if Lasix caused liver damage some 4-6 years after their racing career would be over.

This is probably the most authoritative site I can find on liver disease in horses and there is not one mention of Lasix or Furosemide on the page.

https://thehorse.com/119565/liver-failure-in-horses/


Offline nemisis

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« 2019-Dec-04, 07:30 PM Reply #460 »
How convenient that only your google searches count.  :what:"

If you put the direct question" Does furosemide affect the liver?"...hopefully the answer won't come up behind a subscription wall......it says 'furosemide can cause very low electrolyte levels, which can cause serious liver damage and loss of brain function"......makes sense to me.

Can I prove anything? ....no of course not......I'm certain even an autopsy wouldn't prove much.....certainly not for you.

The problems around diuretics and the liver seems to be more around electrolyte imbalance and what happen when horses are treated with corticosteroids in conjunction with potent diuretics like Lasix.
That's the extent of it for me so unless you can pull out a medical qualification, I won't be changing my mind :bye:

I'm sure there would be people at Waikato Stud suspicious of the cause of the stallion's liver problem as well.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Dec-04, 08:44 PM Reply #461 »
How convenient that only your google searches count.  :what:"

If you put the direct question" Does furosemide affect the liver?"...hopefully the answer won't come up behind a subscription wall......it says 'furosemide can cause very low electrolyte levels, which can cause serious liver damage and loss of brain function"......makes sense to me.

Can I prove anything? ....no of course not......I'm certain even an autopsy wouldn't prove much.....certainly not for you.

The problems around diuretics and the liver seems to be more around electrolyte imbalance and what happen when horses are treated with corticosteroids in conjunction with potent diuretics like Lasix.
That's the extent of it for me so unless you can pull out a medical qualification, I won't be changing my mind :bye:

I'm sure there would be people at Waikato Stud suspicious of the cause of the stallion's liver problem as well.

You are the one making the allegations (almost certainly false) that Chris Waller was using Lasix on his horse and that the death of Sacred Falls is due to your own diagnosis of Furosemide toxicity.

You don't come up with one shred of corroborating evidence.

Then you turn around and ask me to produce qualifications.

10/10 for social media trolling   :lol:

The side effect of electrolyte imbalance is a short term effect due to the loss of fluid - which is what the drug is all about if you knew anything.

I have not professed to expertise in the field of pharmacology (my expertise lies in Radiology - or laid, I am retired from the game) but I probably know more than the lay person.

Glomerular filtration and tubular secretion mechanisms, the way that the body excretes the drug, is known to me because of the requirement to understand the pharmacology of contrast media and how it is expunged from the body.

Many a patient with Pulmonary Oedema has fluid on the thoracic cavity, seen quite clearly on X-ray, and the treatment of choice for most patients is Lasix.

There are long term side effects of the drug, but only with continual use - principally the kidneys.

However I do not profess a knowledge of the physiology of the horse and in particular equine hepatic anatomy and physiology.

I certainly don't come on forums as an anonymous poster making all sorts of libelous allegations about someone with not one shred of evidence, quoting Indian web sites and quoting my own "feelings" as some sort of proof.

Offline nemisis

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« 2019-Dec-05, 04:58 AM Reply #462 »
Any death from organ failure in this day and age around young/youngish high performance athletes could be considered suspicious.......C Waller describes his horses as such.

Lasix is not the only drug being administered here.........it is a masking agent.

You can put up whatever you like on the subject but I will always remain suspicious.

I can understand that anyone who believes that "racing is cleaner than ever" will ever be able to grasp this........dreamland!

Spare a thought for Sadler's Lake.......after his couple of years at the Waller stable he got sent off to R Smerdon's yard.

Do you want to offer up your thoughts on how a bit of tripart and formaldehyde on top of what's  gone on before might be beneficial to the animal......poor bloody horse. :bye:

« Last Edit: 2019-Dec-05, 06:11 AM by nemisis »

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2019-Dec-05, 07:37 AM Reply #463 »


Gaming the system -- only 'clear' on race-day?

There is a sense of accepted secrecy about the permitted use of drugs in the preparation of horses then presented to run 'clean' on the day.

This arrangement plays with punters minds if the variations in the way a horse is prepared can be made without disclosure.

........... presumably even variations in feed and supplements can affect a horses performance.

To reprise a familiar theme -- it is clear from many race outcomes that a horse can be 'got  ready' to perform well for one race after indifferent performances in its lead-up races.

................. punters do not like to feel tricked ...............  some routine investigation of the betting activity around 'unexpected winners' should be done and disclosed.

............ as is the racing culture 'applauds' the training feats of getting a smokey home.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2019-Dec-05, 08:38 AM Reply #464 »
Lasix is not the only drug being administered here.........it is a masking agent.

....

Do you want to offer up your thoughts on how a bit of tripart and formaldehyde on top of what's  gone on before might be beneficial to the animal......poor bloody horse. :bye:

Your the one driving this unevidenced conspiracy theory not me so don't ask me to "offer up thoughts" on your little adventure.


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