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John O'Shea - Trainer - Racehorse TALK

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Offline 22 WOOBIA 22

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« 2012-Mar-22, 05:21 PM Reply #50 »
Arsenal what the .... has the Grace of God got to do with this.

If it wasn't for the owner not copping the fraudulent actions none of this would have come out.

The only reason No one else has tried is because of cost Finacially but obv the Personal cost would be greater.

Obv depending on time limitations others may grow a set.

Nothing to do with the Industry testing this as I thought it was the Owner who wouldnt accept this crap.

The fact it has happenned many times is No excuse, truth and honesty never hurt anyone in the long run.

I think it is fitting that they do a fundraiser as they did one for olm8 the munster so where the hell would you draw the line.

I reckon they are fairdinkum kidding themselves, Racing B iotch has him pegged. Mr .... Wit.

After you read the Court docs, why oh why did he ever say anything, bad advice and cost heaps.

Offline el zoro

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« 2012-Mar-22, 05:34 PM Reply #51 »
I do understand that other bloodstock agents/trainers that have also swindled other buyers would be thanking their lucky stars that they didn't get caught too. So I guess it wouldn't suprise me either that these other scammers would bind together to help out one of their own.   :bleh:

As I have said previously, the Racing Industry should have had rules in place decades ago to cover these practices. However, just because they had poor  leadership with no standards in place does not necessarily mean that it gives some people open slather to scam others & get away with it. People need to be accountable for not being ethical.
  :yes:     

Offline RedGoat

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« 2012-Mar-22, 06:31 PM Reply #52 »
Should be noted that no adverse inferences were drawn about his integrity in the two cases.........no doubt he should have disclosed the vet report ....and as the record shows the horse wasn't any good with or without the  blemish the vet found.

Interesting take on it all. I'd say that his integrity was mightily questioned by not disclosing something.


JOS: Sir. Here is your horse.

Punter: Anything wrong with it?

JOS: No.

Punter: Great. Where do I sign?

Sometimes the smallest of details are important.



Offline Arsenal

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« 2012-Mar-22, 07:00 PM Reply #53 »
Maybe if you read the court's decisions it would help .......if that's too big an ask there's very reasonably succinct analysis of the cases on justracing by someone who understands the law and is involved in racing...... :thumbsup:
The Consequences
This case, while shocking to the wider thoroughbred industry is not a novel case.
Mr O’Shea made an agreement with Mr Vieira, which Mr O’Shea broke.
Mr O’Shea was not found to be negligent, or dishonest, or in breach of his duty to Mr Vieira as an agent. There was no adverse finding against Mr O’Shea on any of these grounds either in the District Court presumably, or the Court of Appeal. The evidence showed that Mr O’Shea employed a rigorous yearling selection process, based on his own hard work, and on veterinary advice. However in this instance, he told Mr Vieira that he would recommend only a very specific category of horse for Mr Vieira to purchase, and breached his promise, by recommending a horse to Mr Vieira that was not what he had promised to recommend
.

http://www.sydneyracing.com.au/article.php?current_article=4526


Offline vadim

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« 2012-Mar-22, 07:21 PM Reply #54 »
Maybe if you read the court's decisions it would help .......if that's too big an ask there's very reasonably succinct analysis of the cases on justracing by someone who understands the law and is involved in racing...... :thumbsup:
The Consequences
This case, while shocking to the wider thoroughbred industry is not a novel case.
Mr O’Shea made an agreement with Mr Vieira, which Mr O’Shea broke.
Mr O’Shea was not found to be negligent, or dishonest, or in breach of his duty to Mr Vieira as an agent. There was no adverse finding against Mr O’Shea on any of these grounds either in the District Court presumably, or the Court of Appeal. The evidence showed that Mr O’Shea employed a rigorous yearling selection process, based on his own hard work, and on veterinary advice. However in this instance, he told Mr Vieira that he would recommend only a very specific category of horse for Mr Vieira to purchase, and breached his promise, by recommending a horse to Mr Vieira that was not what he had promised to recommend
.

http://www.sydneyracing.com.au/article.php?current_article=4526



 :nowink:

Offline RedGoat

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« 2012-Mar-22, 08:16 PM Reply #55 »
Maybe if you read the court's decisions it would help .......if that's too big an ask...

I've read it Arsenal.

I suggest that it is you who is lacking in comprehension skills, as Vadim succinctly pointed out with nothing more than some highlighted text and and a smiley face  :yes:

It's actually pretty clear. From the article:

Mr O’Shea then held a conversation with Mr Vieira in which Mr Vieira asked if everything was OK with the horse, and if the vet said the horse was OK. Mr O’Shea advised Mr Vieira that “There is nothing wrong with him. The horse is good.” Mr O’Shea admitted in cross examination that he knew the horse had issues, and was not free from issues.
« Last Edit: 2012-Mar-23, 05:35 AM by RedGoat »

Offline Authorized

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« 2012-Mar-22, 10:07 PM Reply #56 »
I do understand that other bloodstock agents/trainers that have also swindled other buyers would be thanking their lucky stars that they didn't get caught too. So I guess it wouldn't suprise me either that these other scammers would bind together to help out one of their own.   :bleh:

As I have said previously, the Racing Industry should have had rules in place decades ago to cover these practices. However, just because they had poor  leadership with no standards in place does not necessarily mean that it gives some people open slather to scam others & get away with it. People need to be accountable for not being ethical.
  :yes:     

Are they scammers or did they simply make a calculated mistake ?

Colin Hayes often said he never bought the perfect horse, They nearly all had issues he was happy to work with.

How many trainers did the wrong thing by the owner by simply forgiving a horse a fault that they have forgiven many times before but on the odd occassion the fault came back to bit them and the owner on the bum.

I dont think they are scammers, they have just made a calculated mistake.

I am not saying John O'Shea is in the right here, I am saying this case will tidy that all up and I do not believe he should wear the full brunt.


Offline Arsenal

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« 2012-Mar-23, 10:11 AM Reply #57 »
RedGoat thanks for helping me understand what it's all about...take a jelly bean from the jar. :icecream:

O'Shea was wrong I haven't disputed that......that's evident ...but neither case made any adverse findings on his character...that's my point......which you omitted to mention.....so here it is again. :sad:


"Mr O’Shea was not found to be negligent, or dishonest, or in breach of his duty to Mr Vieira as an agent. There was no adverse finding against Mr O’Shea on any of these grounds either in the District Court presumably, or the Court of Appeal. The evidence showed that Mr O’Shea employed a rigorous yearling selection process, based on his own hard work, and on veterinary advice"

Offline RedGoat

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« 2012-Mar-23, 10:41 AM Reply #58 »
Arsenal, this is from the Judgment, not George Fraser's personal summary of it:

".......a plaintiff induced to enter into a transaction by misrepresentation, the plaintiff was entitled to recover losses suffered up to the date when the error was discovered and he had had an opportunity to avoid further loss...."

He was found to have to induced Vieira to enter into a transaction through misrepresentation. My opinion is that it calls his integrity into question.

There's probably a better example in there but that is the first one I found.

Offline Arsenal

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« 2012-Mar-23, 12:06 PM Reply #59 »
I know that RG..nothing we say alters the facts of the case.

There's no argument that O'Shea should have disclosed the vet report...had he done so he wouldn't be in this position.

I'm sticking to my opinion and you're welcome to yours...... :shrug:

Offline RedGoat

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« 2012-Mar-23, 12:34 PM Reply #60 »
Cheers and agree Arsenal  :beer:

Everybody wishes that they had certain decisions over again and obviously for O'Shea this is one of those times. He shouldn't have done what he did. I hope Steps in Time picks up the Gr1 for him on Saturday.

Offline Nellie

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« 2012-Mar-23, 12:56 PM Reply #61 »
Yeah could see myself in O'Shea's position if I wanted to deceive an owner...as for the fundraiser....please.....no wonder he's embarrassed I don't think he'd be short of a dollar and interestingly I wonder if a little known trainer from the bush who was given an open cheque book at the sales from an owner and made the same error of judgement which ensued in a costly legal battle would be given the same courtesy from the ATA and William Inglis...I think not.  As usual, special rules for special people.


Offline toltrice

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« 2012-Mar-23, 10:30 PM Reply #62 »
The NSW Trainers Association made a point of saying they would do the same for any trainer who found themselves in the same position. They are trying to raise money to make up the $175,000 shortfall in the amount O'Shea can claim on insurance not bail him out. When he bought the horse it was capped at $75,000, it is now $250,000.

Offline Antitab#

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« 2012-Mar-24, 10:23 AM Reply #63 »
This amount is chicken feed to what JOS has already robbed off his owners.

He should pay the fine and shut the  :censored:  up before someone LEAKS to the media and the stewards all the other rorts and thieving  he has been involved in.

Offline 22 WOOBIA 22

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« 2012-Mar-24, 10:27 AM Reply #64 »
Anti why hold back let it all out you will feel better.

I still want to know why Peter Moran left, as I know Peter is pretty straight.

Rumpelstiltskin

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« 2012-Mar-24, 01:35 PM Reply #65 »
This amount is chicken feed to what JOS has already robbed off his owners.

He should pay the fine and shut the  :censored:  up before someone LEAKS to the media and the stewards all the other rorts and thieving  he has been involved in.

Harsh words there Antitab, maybee a name change to Antitainers or is is a personal issue with JOS.  :what:

Offline specialweek

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« 2012-Mar-24, 03:58 PM Reply #66 »
It is a rather bizzar way O'shea is being treated in interviews, like there has been a death in the family rather than a court decision.
« Last Edit: 2012-Mar-24, 06:44 PM by specialweek »

Offline Antitab#

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« 2012-Mar-24, 05:54 PM Reply #67 »
Harsh words there Antitab, maybee a name change to Antitainers or is is a personal issue with JOS.  :what:

Nothing personal as I wouldnt go near him. Unfortunately I know a few who have.

Its not a coincidence that it was this particular trainer who ended up in court.

Offline toltrice

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« 2012-Mar-25, 06:53 AM Reply #68 »
Anti why hold back let it all out you will feel better.

I still want to know why Peter Moran left, as I know Peter is pretty straight.
 
 
Peter Moran has a history of moving his horses. EG: Took Group One winners Excites away from Guy Walter and Duporth from Anthony Cummings and neither won a race after. Has also taken horses from away from  many other trainers.

Online Jeunes

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« 2012-Mar-25, 08:50 AM Reply #69 »
It is a rather bizzar way O'shea is being treated in interviews, like there has been a death in the family rather than a court decision.

Have to agree with you. He on 2ky on fridays with slats / tk at around 8am and he sometimes comes across as surly. Also with foxwedge winning and his stud value increasing, don't understand why there is a fund raiser. He would be getting a slice of this surely. I wonder if it was a country trainer, would there be this sort of help.

Offline 22 WOOBIA 22

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« 2012-Mar-25, 09:04 AM Reply #70 »
Thanks Toltrice, I remember Bill Mitchell had a couple and Pete had a Private Trainer /s at his place.

I dont see his colours much as I dont get to see many races, same with formguides.

As for topic, No way would a trainer of less standing be helped with a fundraiser.

I just hope a list of donors is displayed as it should tell a tale.

Ring a Ding Ding.

Offline aplusa

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« 2012-Mar-25, 05:41 PM Reply #71 »
very good long term stats...since 2002 season his runners have earned 33 million....best two horses so far have been racing to win, private steer....shows flat bet profit when blinkers 1st time

Offline Pigskin

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« 2012-Mar-25, 10:01 PM Reply #72 »
Thanks to all the contributors in this thread, was a good read.  Fundraiser for O'Shea ...   :lol:  ... a great look for the racing industry.

Oink !

Online j.r.b.

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« 2012-Mar-26, 07:40 AM Reply #73 »
So O'Shea's had a bit of a financial setback as a result of misleading an owner and not have enough insurance?

D A Hayes had a bit a financial strife a while back. Lost $1m+.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Business/Highflyer-was-just-another-con-man/2004/12/05/1102182154865.html

Why don't we have a fundraiser for D A Hayes.

The problem he ran into was no more or less his own fault than O'Shea's. Actually, it was probably less his own fault.

God alone knows why Inglis would want to get involved. As per Pigskin, what a great message to send buyers on the eve of the Easter sale. Something like..."We think people who mislead buyers at horse sales are hardly done by and we're happy to help recompense them for any expenses they incur".

I can tell you, support from other trainers for the action of their peak body on this issue is very far from unanimous.

And anyway, wouldn't the $35,000-odd that O'Shea's picked up in prizemoney % in the last few days make a dent in whatever it is that he owes his lawyers and others? And you never know, he might win another race or two over the Autumn, which would help even more.

Not forgetting of course the interest he'll get down the track in Foxwedge - usually a lifetime annual service for trainers to use or sell.

Many people cop a financial setback or two as they travel through life. O'Shea's just another one of them. The difference between O'Shea and many of the others is that he is in a far better position to get back on feet pretty quickly.

Online j.r.b.

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« 2012-Mar-26, 01:01 PM Reply #74 »


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