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Author Topic: Doping Scandal Investigation in Victoria  (Read 62497 times)

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Online fours

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« 2018-Feb-22, 09:20 AM Reply #50 »
Stewards....,

Are people like everyone else and some fall for temptation.

Remember dog steward getting rid of samples for instance that were 'inconvenient'  to some.

Fours

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-Feb-22, 10:57 AM Reply #51 »


'Doping' or 'Treatment'

I have trouble with the idea that a 'bicarb treatment' is fairly called 'doping' when nothing showed in the routine swabs.

'Doping' is a word best used for performance enhancing (or depressing) drugs -- and there is no suggestion the under-limit bicarb was masking anything else.

RVL making 'rules' about benign treatments may be their call but milking the milkshake story as a headline integrity concern is a bit rich.

....for my money, and that of many others, the more important doping scandal in Victorian racing is about RVL treating TAB punters as 'dopes' by running races  more likely to be unfair than fairly run.


Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Feb-22, 12:10 PM Reply #52 »
As disclosed today some insider leaked to the alleged conspirators whether a horse was to be tested or not on raceday.
PP7 how does that sit with your view that "Rather than a slight on Victorian racing integrity, one could view it as evidence that there are high standards of integrity maintained in Victoria and if you do the wrong thing you will get caught" ?

You didn't answer my question Bubba.

Do you not bet in Melbourne because of the poor integrity of the racing?

We live in an age where politicians think it is OK to f*** the office help (while married), get them up the duff, and then give them a $100k+ job. And the only punishment they will ever receive is a change to the Ministerial Code Of Conduct.

The dopers have gone to great lengths to hide their crimes (if that is found out to be proved) and they have co-opted an insider - no doubt for reward - to give them a hand. The RV Investigators have caught them out.

Tell me which body has more "integrity". The political one or RVL and their racing operations?

The point I'm making is the liberal use of the co-joined terms "integrity" and "Victorian racing" to make RVL look far worse than what they are, which is a body with the highest standards of integrity. The integrity problem is with the dopers, not with Victorian racing.

And this coming from someone who has been one of the harshest critics of RVL all through the "troubled times" with the recently sacked board.

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2018-Feb-22, 02:29 PM Reply #53 »
PP7, I do not know whether you have confused me with P Mair, I do not recall that I was " one of the harshest critics of RVL, all through the troubled times with the recently sacked Board ".I doubt I made any comments......

however on the matter of integrity I agree there is little,if any,integrity in politics. The RV stewards only luckily got access to those historical texts when they apprehended the alleged doper when he carried his mobile in his pocket.If he had not had his phone nobody would be any the wiser on the alleged dopings going back seven years.

More good luck than good management.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Feb-22, 02:44 PM Reply #54 »
PP7, I do not know whether you have confused me with P Mair, I do not recall that I was " one of the harshest critics of RVL, all through the troubled times with the recently sacked Board ".I doubt I made any comments......

however on the matter of integrity I agree there is little,if any,integrity in politics. The RV stewards only luckily got access to those historical texts when they apprehended the alleged doper when he carried his mobile in his pocket.If he had not had his phone nobody would be any the wiser on the alleged dopings going back seven years.

More good luck than good management.
Sorry Bubba but the reference to the harsh critic was to myself.

The reference to our very good friend Mr Peter Mair was made tongue in cheek but raises the question - all those people who were ridiculing him when he was suggesting Victorian racing was "off" - where are they now?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-Feb-22, 05:24 PM Reply #55 »

 Minister's question and answer

“At some point in the future ... I’m sure Racing Victoria and the integrity department will be asking themselves these questions about why … people were able to allegedly carry on in this way for so long without detection,” [Minister] Pakula said on Melbourne radio RSN.

The answer Minister is that whatever was done in the way of 'treatment', it was not of a magnitude that resulted in positive swabs above the permitted threshold.

..........on the face of it there was no offence  (bar the one contrived by RVL about 'on the day')

Offline Arsenal

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« 2018-Feb-22, 07:36 PM Reply #56 »
RV declines media requests for their brief of evidence to be produced prior to the RAD board hearing...very commendable indeed ..justice must be seen to have been done as the saying goes .....BUT who released the transcripts between the alleged dopers to the media.........hardly likely the dopers did it to themselves/  :o

https://www.justhorseracing.com.au/news/australian-racing/no-rv-release-of-evidence-in-bicarb-case/433065

Racing NSW stewards are on RV's mailing list to receive the brief of evidence according to a statement made by Mark van Gestel on Racing NSW's website.

On the same page Giles Thompson RV CEO is reported as follows:-

" Racing Victoria chief executive Giles Thompson said the text messages had not been leaked by his organisation.  :lol:

"I am 100 per cent confident that this information has not been passed to The Herald Sun by Racing Victoria," Thompson said on Melbourne radio. "The reason why we don't publicise this evidence up front is potentially it would undermine our case."

In cases like this who else would be able to release this other than RV ...it'll be like the David Moody case RV investigates who the original leaker was someone on their staff but never disclosed the outcome ...Thompson must think we're as stupid as hisself. :chair:


Giddy Up :beer:
« Last Edit: 2018-Feb-22, 07:59 PM by Arsenal »

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-Feb-22, 08:35 PM Reply #57 »

Releasing the evidence now could save a lot of money

........................ there is nothing RVL likes more than a 'shaggy dog story' -- going on and on in a format that panders to the inclination of RVL to praise itself for a 'determination' to pursue integrity.

Telling all what happened, and the consequences, may be so damning to the reputations of those 'charged' as to make the case such a lay down misere that they walk away from the industry. The lawyers would be very cross!

On this occasion the chasing dog has very short legs -- no one tumbled to the 'treatment' over many years.

Conversely, a properly convened judicial  inquiry into the conduct of racing in Melboune over recent years would very likely find that 'administrative discretion' allowing inflated fields was contrary to the interests of racing integrity -- and, like the connections now pursued, was a policy driven by the prospect of making more money by virtue of promoting unfair racing.

RVL is on the mat.


Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Feb-23, 01:49 AM Reply #59 »
First sentence of Brendan Cormack's piece in the Oz today:

"It has been described as - potentially - the biggest scandal to hit racing. If you can get on, bet on that".

Highlights what I am saying about the media.

Just a few months ago Cobalt was the biggest scandal to hit racing.

Before that it was Fine Cotton.

When I first started going to the races in around 1978, I was provided with information that George Freeman had rigged two races (along who would win the races). The Chief Steward at the time was in on it. Freeman rigged far more than two races as we all know now and had a hand in the Fine Cotton scandal when he sent his boys out to shout "rig in" when the horse returned to scale - having backed the eventual winner.

How on earth is this even remotely like the "biggest scandal to hit racing".

Anyone remember the "Jockey Tapes" scandal?

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/the-wrong-side-of-the-track-20121107-28yi1.html

Nikolic and co?

Darren Beadman and Chris Munce and Hong Kong?

Les Samba? George Brown?

Bill Waterhouse.

Rex Jackson was the Prison's Minister in the NSW government and he was getting paid bribes in cash to let prisoners to get out of jail early and was putting the cash into his boot in the car park at Randwick.

Big Philou? Phar Lap being shot at?

The racecaller (whose name escapes me) who was in on the delayed broadcast scandal.

Don't get me wrong. It is an interesting story and deserves reporting.

But spare me the bullshit that it is the biggest scandal ever in racing, and that there are endemic integrity problems with Victorian racing...please.

Offline Bubbasmith

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« 2018-Feb-23, 08:11 AM Reply #60 »
PP7, was Fine Cotton a rig ? Do you mean George Freeman sent in his boys to yell  "ring in " rather than "rig In " ?

A rig is of course a horse with only one testicle.

Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Feb-23, 08:15 AM Reply #61 »
PP7 You seem to get angry and high and mighty about all the wrong things.

In 25 years time this particular issue will be on that list.

I do not believe the racing industry is capable ( nor do they want to ) of investigating this properly.


Offline Arsenal

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« 2018-Feb-23, 10:51 AM Reply #62 »
The stakeholders are calling for "the cheats" to be rubbed out for life" Gai Waterhouse is the most well known Michelle Payne another quoted as expressing the same outrage Mick Price almost said as much .....Lloyd Williams is another.....and this is all before those charged have been given their rights and opportunity  to defend the charges...clearly the text messages are damning evidence ......but the only caught in the act case is Lovani ...the others are years old and with no positives to show...it's possible many will walk although at great personal expense with legal costs and possible owner defections....  QRIC comments on Birchley IMO is the correct approach....wait and see what NSW does if any of those charged enter in NSW.

From what we are told so far the drips are given within a time frame that won't show up in the pre race testing so the solution appears to be a second test after the horses are in or being led to the parade ring that'll require some extra cost and possible inconvenience but it must be exercising the minds of those charged with keeping the game clean......swabbing after the race apparently isn't the answer......urine doesn't show TCO's only the bloods.

Giddy Up :beer:
« Last Edit: 2018-Feb-23, 10:53 AM by Arsenal »

Online wily ole dog

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« 2018-Feb-23, 11:01 AM Reply #63 »
If I read correctly the dodgy trainer in question had 2 runners in the 2015 cup.

That narrows it down to

David Hayes & Tom Dabernig
Yoshitada Munakata
Aidan O’Brien
Ed Dunlop

Have I missed anyone?

Online specialweek2

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« 2018-Feb-23, 11:36 AM Reply #64 »
If I read correctly the dodgy trainer in question had 2 runners in the 2015 cup.

That narrows it down to

David Hayes & Tom Dabernig
Yoshitada Munakata
Aidan O’Brien
Ed Dunlop

Have I missed anyone?
Munakata only had one. Fame Game.

Waterhouse had 2.
« Last Edit: 2018-Feb-23, 11:38 AM by specialweek2 »

Offline nemisis

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« 2018-Feb-23, 11:46 AM Reply #65 »
PP7 I think it could well be the biggest scandal or certainly has the potential to become it.....a tainted Mel cup in the eyes of the press will ensure it.

I must say I'm a bit disappointed in Mick Price's "99.something % are clean.".....surely just say most trainers and you sound a lot more credible.

Go through Vic's  leading trainers and you can see many have been busted for bi-carb offences in the past.
Throw in the cobalt men and the EPO user there is a lot more than 0.1%
Then look at who may have learned a lot of their craft with Aquanita trainers.

I believe the top up is in a paste form and administered by a plunger.
« Last Edit: 2018-Feb-23, 12:21 PM by nemisis »

Offline nemisis

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« 2018-Feb-23, 12:00 PM Reply #66 »
If I read correctly the dodgy trainer in question had 2 runners in the 2015 cup.

That narrows it down to

David Hayes & Tom Dabernig
Yoshitada Munakata
Aidan O’Brien
Ed Dunlop

Have I missed anyone?
Wily some over at TB village seem to have worked it out.

Sad if the gallant Red Cadeaux is tainted.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Feb-23, 01:26 PM Reply #67 »
PP7, was Fine Cotton a rig ? Do you mean George Freeman sent in his boys to yell  "ring in " rather than "rig In " ?

A rig is of course a horse with only one testicle.

  :lol:

What was that controversy at a State Of Origin Game when someone held up a sign saying the Gordon Tallis' mum was a rig - but the sign didn't read that - it was actually something else.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Feb-23, 01:45 PM Reply #68 »
PP7 You seem to get angry and high and mighty about all the wrong things.

In 25 years time this particular issue will be on that list.

I do not believe the racing industry is capable ( nor do they want to ) of investigating this properly.

Do I? Angry and high and mighty? I've seen some of your flashes of anger on the footy threads and the TAB threads and don't think I can match that  :lol:

I do not agree with you when you say:

I do not believe the racing industry is capable ( nor do they want to ) of investigating this properly.

and it demonstrates you are not getting the point I am trying to make.

That is that Racing Victoria has done the right thing. As soon as it has been discovered they have gone public and strongly urged the parties in question to stand aside (at least partially) until everyone has their day in court.

What else could they have done? The only other option open to RV would have been to sweep it under the carpet - then I'd say you have an integrity problem.

When people speak of "the integrity of Victorian racing", I interpret that as meaning they have a problem with the integrity of the administrative body Racing Victoria and the race clubs, not to mention all participants in the industry in Victoria.

Why should the actions of a few people cast aspersions on the entire Victorian Racing Industry, as the media are quite clearly doing now. It is the "angle" of the media in constantly referencing the words "integrity" and "Victorian racing" that I object to.

I remind you that I seemed to be a lone voice in defending Peter Moody when the media was intent on classifying his "crime" as the equal of that of Kavanaghs, vets, etc. in the Cobalt scandal. He had one single horse out the 130 he trained return a marginal result. And how did that end up after all the media overstatement? He was only charged with "presenting a horse" but left the industry upset quite clearly stating that he felt he was hard done by the media. That level of media sensationalism seems to be present here, complete with exaggerations like "there is a problem with the integrity of Victorian racing".

I did ask a question that I noticed no-one has bothered to answer:

Has anyone stopped betting on the Melbourne races because they think the racing there has a lack of integrity?


Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Feb-23, 01:51 PM Reply #69 »
PP7 I think it could well be the biggest scandal or certainly has the potential to become it.....a tainted Mel cup in the eyes of the press will ensure it.


I agree that it is a very important story and needs to be reported in full.

But the "biggest" scandal ever as Cormack stated? I don't think so. Doping has been going on for our lifetimes and beyond. And probably on a large scale. It is just that they are better at detecting it these days.

What about when they tried to shoot Phar Lap? Imaging someone shooting Winx or Black Caviar!!!

And what about the racecaller was privvy to them cutting the wires for the interstate broadcast while someone got a bet on and then called a phantom race!

Now that's scandal.

Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Feb-23, 01:54 PM Reply #70 »
There is absolutely no media sensationalism in this so far.

If anything the racing media as usual are down playing it.


Offline Authorized

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« 2018-Feb-23, 02:00 PM Reply #71 »

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2018-Feb-23, 02:02 PM Reply #72 »
There is absolutely no media sensationalism in this so far.

If anything the racing media as usual are down playing it.

Ya reckon  :/

Fears owners will abandon Victoria

https://www.racing.com/news/2018-02-22/fears-owners-will-abandon-victoria

Racing Victoria doping scandal spreads interstate

Secret texts expose extent of horse racing doping scandal including 2015 Melbourne Cup

Explosive text messages fuel racing's doping scandal

Offline HarmersHaven

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« 2018-Feb-23, 02:21 PM Reply #73 »
Then look at who may have learned a lot of their craft with Aquanita trainers.

Surprised more haven't picked up on this one.

Pretty sure Lloyd's new guy was Smerdon's 2IC around the Mosheen era.

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2018-Feb-23, 03:29 PM Reply #74 »


'The Cup', over-filled with unknown hit-and-run raiders,  is tainted by much worse than a couple of under the limit bi-carb treatments.


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