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General Racing History - Racing Talk - Racehorse TALK

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Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Oct-24, 12:12 PM Reply #225 »
MOST MELBOURNE CUP APPEARANCES

(up to and including 2003)

BARWON
        1863 (Finishing Position: 4)
        1864 (Finishing Position: 8.)
        1866 (Finishing Position: 11)
        1867 (Finishing Position: 11)
        1868 (Finishing Position: 12)
DREAMLAND
        1894 (Finishing Position: 19)
        1895 (Finishing Position: 18)
        1896 (Finishing Position: 13)
        1897 (Finishing Position: 23)
        1898 (Finishing Position: 22)
FALCON
        1863 (Finishing Position: 6)
        1864 (Finishing Position: 9)
        1866 (Finishing Position: 3) **
        1866 (Finishing Position: 12)
        1867 (Finishing Position: 6)
MUSIDORA
        1862 (Finishing Position: 10)
        1863 (Finishing Position: 2) **
        1864 (Finishing Position: 6)
        1865 (Finishing Position: 7)
        1866 (Finishing Position: 16)
SHADOW KING
        1929 (Finishing Position: 6)
        1930 (Finishing Position: 3) **
        1931 (Finishing Position: 2) **
        1932 (Finishing Position: 3) **
        1933 (Finishing Position: 2) **
        1935 (Finishing Position: 4)
SKYBEAU
        1996 (Finishing Position: 3) **
        1997 (Finishing Position: 7)
        1998 (Finishing Position: 8.)
        1999 (Finishing Position: 15)
        2000 (Finishing Position: 9)
TORYBOY
        1861 (Finishing Position: 5)
        1862 (Finishing Position: 6)
        1865 (Finishing Position: 1) **
        1866 (Finishing Position: 19)
        1867 (Finishing Position: 19)

Shadow King must have been a marvelous 2 miler.

Never won a Melbourne Cup but placed 4 times (with Phar Lap in the placings twice in those years).

Never won a Group 1 which may have been different if he wasn't unlucky enough to be a contemporary of Phar Lap, Peter Pan and Hall Mark.


A bit like Hartnell and Happy Clapper with Winx.

Hartnell would have added:

2016 Cox Plate
2017 Queen Elizabeth (Sydney)

to his 4 Group 1 wins.

Happy Clapper would have added:

2016 Doncaster
2017 George Main
2018 George Ryder
2019 Chipping Norton

to his 3 Group 1 wins which includes an Epsom-Doncaster double if Winx were not around.

Offline pwa54

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« 2020-Oct-24, 02:14 PM Reply #226 »
Shadow King was also only a neck away from 3rd when he finished 4th as a 10 year-old in 1935. He had been given the honour of leading the field out. His is an amazing Melbourne Cup record.

Amongst his 12 wins were the Williamstown Cup, the Moonee Valley Gold Cup, the Herbert Power, the Coongy and the Hotham Handicap. The Williamstown Cup paid the biggest first place money.

He became a police horse on his retirement. It's a great story.

 

Offline timw

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« 2021-Mar-25, 06:19 PM Reply #227 »
The Sydney Morning Herald Sat 25 Dec 1943  Page 9

ACTION LIKELY

Saint Warden Case

MELBOURNE, Friday.-Action was likely to be taken by both the Federal Security and South Australian State Transport authorities against those responsible for the transport of Saint Warden, and other horses, to South Australia for the Port Adelaide Cup meeting on Monday, the chairman of the Transport Board, Mr. Fraser, said to-day. He added that State and Federal officers were investigating the unlaw-ful transport of the racehorses to South Australia. It was known already that the horses were taken by road some of the way and by "other trans-port" for the remainder of the jour-ney. Mr. Fraser said he could not dis-close further details at present. In addition to penalties that might be imposed, the authorities would con-sider action to limit the transport ac-tivities of the offenders. Mr. J. Nicholson, owner-trainer of Saint Warden, said in Adelaide on ar-rival that, after Monday's race, the gelding would be given a short spell, and later probably be prepared for other races in Adelaide. V. Hartney will travel from Melbourne whenever possible to ride him.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2021-Jun-11, 12:19 PM Reply #228 »
Came across this race when looking back through some old Canberra Times fields



Couldn't find the official results but there was this article in Monday's paper.

Before my time but this incident was probably as big as Fine Cotton at the time.






Offline Brian Mc

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« 2021-Jun-11, 01:29 PM Reply #229 »
As in all his other Derby articles Ian Ibbett covers this 1961 running of the ALC Derby with excellent detail an d colour.
https://www.kingsoftheturf.com/1961-mel-schumacher-and-the-infamous-leg-pull-derby/

I remember being at the track at Eagle Farm or Doomben that day.  I was a young, recently appointed Lecturer in Physics at the University of Queensland and, with a friend of mine, a medical man, now long since diseased, used to go to the Brisbane Saturday meetings regularly.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2021-Jun-11, 02:53 PM Reply #230 »
As in all his other Derby articles Ian Ibbett covers this 1961 running of the ALC Derby with excellent detail an d colour.
https://www.kingsoftheturf.com/1961-mel-schumacher-and-the-infamous-leg-pull-derby/

I remember being at the track at Eagle Farm or Doomben that day.  I was a young, recently appointed Lecturer in Physics at the University of Queensland and, with a friend of mine, a medical man, now long since diseased, used to go to the Brisbane Saturday meetings regularly.

Nice article Brian   emthup

I'd never heard of this incident:

Just two months following upon that holiday with George Moore found Hill aboard Flying East in that notorious Maiden Six at Hawkesbury. It was the race that ultimately saw Moore disqualified for three years in the blackest episode of Moore’s life on the Turf.

Now given that you have revealed yourself as a physics lecturer Brian what about the physics on the leg pull. Does it work?

Summer Fair and Blue Era are racing at their top speed they can at that stage of the race. So let's say no acceleration.

So what Force needs to be applied to Hill's leg to reduce the velocity of the 500 kg beast next to him?   :lol:

Offline westie

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« 2021-Jun-11, 07:52 PM Reply #231 »
Brian
Good read and thanks for the link.

Offline Brian Mc

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« 2021-Jun-12, 07:51 AM Reply #232 »
In answer to PP7's question.

First, my money that day was on King Brian, obviously a well-named conveyance and coming into the race with three wins on the trot including the Rosehill Guineas. It finished third, with a close up view of the shenanigans up ahead of him,

Second, some back of the envelop calculations.

Suppose the horses were dead level with 50m to go; they would haver been travelling at, in round figures, some 20m/s.  So they had about 2.5s to go,  The relevant bit of physics that describes the effects of the leg-pull is that the impetus (the product of the applied force and the time interval during which it was applied) equals the change in momentum (the product of the mass and the change in the speed).

You've supplied a value for the mass, 500kg,

The change in speed (Blue Era goes a little faster, Summer Fair a little slower) can be worked out as follows: Blue Era finishes half-a-head in front, that's about 10cm. So he has to gain 5cm in the last 2.5s while Summer Fair loses 5cm (one horse is being pulled forward, while the other is being pulled back); a change in speed of 0.05m/2.5s, that is 0.02m/s.  That's a change in momentum of 500kg x 0.02m/s.  That's 10kg.m/s.

That's also the value of the impetus - the applied force multiplied by the time interval during which the force is applied. 

So if Schumacher pulls Hills's leg for 1/2 a second, the force he applies is some 20N, the same as the weight of a 2kg block of ice-cream (or butter or anything at all).

As I wrote, back of the envelop stuff, but I reckon it would be between 10N and 50N.

Offline JWesleyHarding

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« 2021-Jun-12, 10:24 AM Reply #233 »
One leg-pull being performed here is PP claiming to have never heard of this incident.


Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2021-Jun-12, 12:06 PM Reply #234 »
In answer to PP7's question.

First, my money that day was on King Brian, obviously a well-named conveyance and coming into the race with three wins on the trot including the Rosehill Guineas. It finished third, with a close up view of the shenanigans up ahead of him,

Second, some back of the envelop calculations.

Suppose the horses were dead level with 50m to go; they would haver been travelling at, in round figures, some 20m/s.  So they had about 2.5s to go,  The relevant bit of physics that describes the effects of the leg-pull is that the impetus (the product of the applied force and the time interval during which it was applied) equals the change in momentum (the product of the mass and the change in the speed).

You've supplied a value for the mass, 500kg,

The change in speed (Blue Era goes a little faster, Summer Fair a little slower) can be worked out as follows: Blue Era finishes half-a-head in front, that's about 10cm. So he has to gain 5cm in the last 2.5s while Summer Fair loses 5cm (one horse is being pulled forward, while the other is being pulled back); a change in speed of 0.05m/2.5s, that is 0.02m/s.  That's a change in momentum of 500kg x 0.02m/s.  That's 10kg.m/s.

That's also the value of the impetus - the applied force multiplied by the time interval during which the force is applied. 

So if Schumacher pulls Hills's leg for 1/2 a second, the force he applies is some 20N, the same as the weight of a 2kg block of ice-cream (or butter or anything at all).

As I wrote, back of the envelop stuff, but I reckon it would be between 10N and 50N.

I had it down as > 0   :biggrin:

i.e. wouldn't take very much

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2021-Jun-12, 12:19 PM Reply #235 »
One leg-pull being performed here is PP claiming to have never heard of this incident.

Yeah I just re-read that.

I was referring to the incident below i.e.

Just two months following upon that holiday with George Moore found Hill aboard Flying East in that notorious Maiden Six at Hawkesbury. It was the race that ultimately saw Moore disqualified for three years in the blackest episode of Moore’s life on the Turf.

I was using Trove to try and find Arsenal's horse he was talking about running 3rd in the Weetwood which is usually run in September, so by guessing 1961 and looking at the last Saturday of the month I found this race!!

After watching the Derby on Saturday punters used to go out on the Monday in droves. Nothing much to do on public holidays back then before the internet.

And they were rewarded with getting a glimpse of the horse that would win the Cup in a few weeks in the Epsom  - Epsom form seems to always hold up in Melbourne.



Some pretty good horses in the 1961 Epsom. And no Tulloch who had run his last race on the 12th June.


Which makes today the 60th Anniversary of Tulloch's last start

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2021-Jun-12, 12:35 PM Reply #236 »
...and if you strain your eyes a little you can see the result.

Epsom - Sky High beat Fine And Dandy with Lord Fury third.
Metrop - Waipiri (Tommy Hill) beat Gemstone (George Moore) and Valerius.



How good was Sky High! I count 18 Group 1 wins in this lot before the Group classifications came in.

Year Race Name Status Distance
1959 AJC Breeders' Plate Pr 5F
1960 AJC Champagne Stakes Pr 6F
1960 STC Golden Slipper Stakes Pr 6F
1960 VRC Victoria Derby Pr 12F
1961 AJC All-Aged Stakes Pr 8F
1961 AJC Daily Telegraph Stakes Pr 6F
1961 AJC Epsom Handicap Pr 8F
1961 AJC Warwick Stakes Pr 7F
1961 STC Canterbury Stakes Pr 6F
1961 VATC Caulfield Stakes Pr 9F
1961 VATC Futurity Stakes Pr 7F
1961 VRC C.M. Lloyd Stakes Pr 8F
1961 VRC L.K.S Mackinnon Stakes Pr 10F
1961 VRC Lightning Stakes Pr 5F
1962 AJC Chipping Norton Stakes Pr 10.5F
1962 AJC Daily & Sunday Telegraph Stakes Pr 7F
1962 AJC Warwick Stakes Pr 7F
1962 STC Canterbury Stakes Pr 6F
1962 STC Hill Stakes Pr 10F
1962 STC Rawson Stakes Pr 9F
1962 VATC Caulfield Stakes Pr 9F
1962 VRC C.M. Lloyd Stakes Pr 8F
1962 VRC Lightning Stakes Pr 5F
1962 VRC Linlithgow Stakes Pr 8F
1963 AJC Autumn Stakes Pr 12F
1963 STC Rawson Stakes Pr 7.5F



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