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Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Jun-13, 01:07 AM Reply #550 »
Wonderful horse. One of the very best. Some great memories - good and bad. His close defeat of Sunline in the Caulfield Stakes. That Australian Cup. His Caulfield Guineas win. A couple of poor rides come to mind where the jockey badly misjudged the pace of the race and set him an impossible task.

In fact sticking to the theme of the thread, here are my top 10 Caulfield Guineas winners since I started following racing around the mid-late 70's

Lonhro and Manikato were the two to go on and win the most Group 1's (or in Manikato's case, the most Principal Races) and would be the two I rate the highest.

2019Super Seth (AUS) 2016
2018The Autumn Sun (AUS) 2015
2017Mighty Boss (AUS) 2014
2016Divine Prophet (AUS) 2013
2015Press Statement (AUS) 2012
2014Shooting To Win (AUS) 2011
2013Long John (AUS) 2010
2012All Too Hard (AUS) 2009
2011Helmet (AUS) 2008
2010Anacheeva (AUS) 2007
2009Starspangledbanner (AUS) 2006
2008Whobegotyou (AUS) 2005
2007Weekend Hussler (AUS) 2004
2006Wonderful World (AUS) 2003
2005God's Own (AUS) 2002
2004Econsul (NZ) 2001
2003In Top Swing (AUS) 2000
2002Helenus (AUS) 1999
2001Lonhro (AUS) 1998
2000Show A Heart (AUS) 1997
1999Redoute's Choice (AUS) 1996
1998Kenwood Melody (AUS) 1995
1997Encounter (AUS) 1994
1996Alfa (AUS) 1993
1995Our Maizcay (AUS) 1992
1994St. Covet (AUS) 1991
1993Mahogany (AUS) 1990
1992Palace Reign (AUS) 1989
1991Chortle (AUS) 1988
1990Centro (NZ) 1987
1989Procol Harum (NZ) 1986
1988Vitalic (AUS) 1985
1987Marwong (AUS) 1984
1986Abaridy (AUS) 1983
1985Drawn (AUS) 1982
1984Red Anchor (NZ) 1981
1983Beechcraft (NZ) 1980
1982Grosvenor (NZ) 1979
1981Binbinga (AUS) 1978
1980Sovereign Red (NZ) 1977
1979Runaway Kid (AUS) 1976
1978Manikato (AUS) 1975
1977Luskin Star (AUS) 1974
1976Surround (NZ) 1973

It really is a race of champions and Lonhro was one of the very best. Good race for future sires as well.

Looking through the list of earlier winners you have Artilleryman, Heroic, Ajax, Tulloch, Time And Tide, Storm Queen, Vain.

Notable absentees include Phar Lap and Kingston Town - the King was 3rd to Runaway Kid and Phar Lap had his lead up to the Vic Derby in the Craven Plate beating another champion in Mollison.
« Last Edit: 2020-Jun-13, 01:11 AM by PoisonPen7 »

Offline wily ole dog

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« 2020-Jun-13, 09:34 AM Reply #551 »
What a wonderful race. So so many great horses👍

Offline pwa54

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« 2020-Jun-13, 09:48 AM Reply #552 »
Hard to disagree with those PP.  Wily is right, so many great horses!

Even looking through the early 70s you add Dual Choice, Sobar and Grand Cidium (which was such a promising horse), then the 60s with the under-appreciated Time and Tide as well as Storm Queen and Vain, while Star Affair (which beat Tobin Bronze) and Rajah Sahib had impressive records. 


Offline wily ole dog

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« 2020-Jun-13, 10:26 AM Reply #553 »
The ones that jumped out of the list for me, aside from the obvious champs, were Our Maizcay & Grosvenor

A bloody shame we never saw them as older horses

Offline Wenona

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« 2020-Jun-14, 12:01 AM Reply #554 »
What about Black Caviar?

She drew next to Here De Angels one day in a Moonee Valley sprint and the connections complained that Here De Angels had bad barrier manners (way overstated) and threatened to scratch BC.

Unbelievably they put Here De Angels to an outside barrier!!


My memory is they left a vacant barrier between the two but didn't alter the order.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Jun-14, 02:23 PM Reply #555 »
My memory is they left a vacant barrier between the two but didn't alter the order.

You are correct, but as the CM report said, it was an extraordinary step - you just don't do that sort of thing.

If you do, then down the track people (like me) have the right to point out the fact she was given favouritism.

STEWARDS have taken the extraordinary step of reallocating the starting gate of noted barrier rogue Here De Angels which will protect champion Black Caviar from potential harm at Moonee Valley.

Here De Angels drew the outside of the five-horse field in Saturday's Group Two Schweppes Stakes (1200m) but will now start in barrier six with an empty gate between him and Black Caviar in barrier four.


https://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/steards-shift-starting-gate-of-here-de-angels-to-protect-black-caviar/news-story/2612c4fbc4753f2112b6d49e518154f5

Here De Angels was then trained by Wendy Roche who recently won the Doncaster with her good mare Nettoyer.

HDA ran 2nd to BC beaten 2.25 lengths - one could cynically argue it should have been closer.  ;)


I'm being tough on what we describe as top 10. Top 10 horses are racing in better races than 5 horse G2 MV sprints where the stewards are giving her a leg up  :ph34r:

Luskin Star, Black Caviar - not deserving of top 10 status. Happy to cop discussion otherwise.  :angel:

Offline Jeunes

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« 2020-Jun-14, 02:50 PM Reply #556 »
You are correct, but as the CM report said, it was an extraordinary step - you just don't do that sort of thing.

If you do, then down the track people (like me) have the right to point out the fact she was given favouritism.

STEWARDS have taken the extraordinary step of reallocating the starting gate of noted barrier rogue Here De Angels which will protect champion Black Caviar from potential harm at Moonee Valley.

Here De Angels drew the outside of the five-horse field in Saturday's Group Two Schweppes Stakes (1200m) but will now start in barrier six with an empty gate between him and Black Caviar in barrier four.


https://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/steards-shift-starting-gate-of-here-de-angels-to-protect-black-caviar/news-story/2612c4fbc4753f2112b6d49e518154f5

Here De Angels was then trained by Wendy Roche who recently won the Doncaster with her good mare Nettoyer.

HDA ran 2nd to BC beaten 2.25 lengths - one could cynically argue it should have been closer.  ;)


I'm being tough on what we describe as top 10. Top 10 horses are racing in better races than 5 horse G2 MV sprints where the stewards are giving her a leg up  :ph34r:

Luskin Star, Black Caviar - not deserving of top 10 status. Happy to cop discussion otherwise.  :angel:

Funny how you take pot shots at BC etc and then don’t want to discuss Super and Bluey’s issues raised by many on this forum with consistency and  getting regularly beaten by Vo or at set weights or not winning in some states etc. Even Lonhro was weak at times, never won a handicap or a Cox Plate, or raced over 2400m but considered a champion by miler / middle distance by people.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Jun-14, 03:11 PM Reply #557 »
The ones that jumped out of the list for me, aside from the obvious champs, were Our Maizcay & Grosvenor

A bloody shame we never saw them as older horses

Our Maizcay was the Caulfield Guineas winner in that classic year. Very, very good horse.

Octagonal would win the Cox Plate in a couple of weeks and Nothin' Leica Dane would win The Derby and run 2nd in the Melbourne Cup.

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2020-Jun-27, 11:27 PM Reply #558 »
Top Ten Europe (flat racing)

The Top Ten Europe (flat racing) was selected from those horses that raced in the modern era of flat horse racing which I have taken to align with the running of the first Melbourne Cup in 1861. 

...

Pretty Polly (IRE) 1901 (mare)
24 starts: 22 wins (8 x G1 later), 2 seconds, 0 thirds,  Win % 91.7, Place % 100.0
Champion filly who won the English Fillies Triple Crown and won in open company as 4 and 5 year old winning 8 races later classified as group 1 races.


The Criterion Stakes is about to be run at Newmarket.

When it was a race for 2 year olds it was won by Pretty Polly way back in 1903.

Offline sobig

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« 2020-Jun-28, 01:19 PM Reply #559 »
And the Pretty Polly Stakes is run at the Curragh tonight

Offline timw

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« 2020-Jul-14, 02:01 PM Reply #560 »
Horse Racing Planet’s current Top 10 a

https://horseracingplanet.com/the-worlds-top-20-horse-racing/

1.   Enable  6m  John Gosden (GB)  Nathaniel (IRE)
Ghaiyyath beats Enable: here’s the Coral-Eclipse takeaway – race of season
2.   Ghaiyyath 5h Charlie Appleby (UAE) Dubawi (IRE)
Ghaiyyath beats Enable in race of the season: here’s the Coral-Eclipse takeaway
3.   Almond Eye 5m Sakae Kunieda (JPN) Lord Kanaloa (JPN)
Arc entries: Deirdre the sole Japanese name with Almond Eye and Contrail absent
4.   Stradivarius 6h John Gosden (GB) Sea The Stars (IRE)
5.   Maximum Security 4c Bob Baffert (USA) New Year’s Day (USA)
Saudi Cup: Maximum Security inquiry held up by coronavirus – set to run in G2 San Diego Hcap on July 18 at Del Mar
6.   Battaash 6g  Charlie Hills (GB)  Dark Angel (GB)
Royal Ascot Day 1: here’s the takeaway as Battaash blitzes them behind closed doors
Kieren Fallon: Golden Pal can defeat Battaash in Nunthorpe showdown
7.   Magical 5m Aidan O’Brien (IRE) Galileo (IRE)
8.   Midnight Bisou 5m Steve Asmussen (USA) Midnight Lute (USA)
She’s amazing, she’s really special: she’s Midnight Bisou and she’s back in business
9.   Contrail 3c Yoshito Yahagi (JPN) Deep Impact (JPN)
Star colt Contrail powers away in Japanese Derby – but connections rule out Arc bid
10.   Love 3f Aidan O’Brien (IRE) Galileo (IRE)
A ‘freebie’ for Serpentine, Kameko to cut back, Triple Crown for Love? Here’s the Derby takeaway

They also have Nature Strip at 12 and Beauty Generation at 18.  I would like to see how Contrail goes in the end of year races before considering him for a top 10 spot.  Ditto for Love. 

Cheers

Offline timw

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« 2021-Jan-12, 04:45 PM Reply #561 »
North America's Top 10 (post civil war - in foal year order)         
Qualification: Commenced racing in USA         
In the race summary grade 1 wins appear in brackets. 'G1L' means that race was given grade 1 status when the grading system was introduced in North America in January 1974 with the publication of the first list of 330 North American Graded Stakes by 'Bloodhorse' (see Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders Association: TOBA.)         
         
Horse racing in North America effectively ceased due to the following disruptions:          
1861-1865: American Civil War         
1894: New Jersey legislature banned parimutuel gambling.         
1908-1913: New York State legislature passed the Hart–Agnew anti-gambling bill. Owners, whose horses of racing age had nowhere to go, began shipping them and their trainers to England and France. Thoroughbred Times reported that more than 1,500 American horses were sent overseas between 1908 and 1913 and that at least 24 were either past, present, or future Champions.         
         
         
Miss Woodford (USA) 1880 (mare)      USD 118,270   48 starts: 37 wins (3 x G1L), 7 seconds, 2 thirds.  Win % 77.1, Place % 95.8.
Miss Woodford was the first North American horse to win USD 100,000 in North America.  Unlike many North American mares she competed regularly against the males.  She had a winning streak of 17 from September 1883 to June 1885 if a heat win is included (streak of 16 if heat win is excluded).  Her win rate of 77.1% for a horse that started 48 times was exceptional. Her win rate is greater if her two heat wins are included in the total starts and wins.  The only mare in my top 10 (or 20).*         
         
Man o' War (USA) 1917      USD 249,465   21 starts: 20 wins (6 x G1L, 1 second, 0 thirds. Win % 95.2, Place % 100.0.
Man o' War won the two horse Lawrence Realization Stakes at Belmont Park NY over 13 furlongs by 100 lengths in world record time, effectively a solo world record run.  Over his two-year career, Man o' War won 20 of 21 races, setting three world records, two American records, and three track records.  In his only defeat many blamed the starter for not waiting until all horses were lined up behind the strand.          
         
War Admiral (USA) 1934      USD 273,240   26 starts: 21 wins (5 x G1L), 3 seconds, 1 third.  Win % 80.8, Place % 96.2.
War Admiral won the 3YO triple crown and came back as a 4YO to win important races including New York's prestigious Jockey Club Gold Cup over 2 miles.          
         
Citation (USA) 1945      USD 1,085,760   45 starts: 32 wins (10 x G1L), 10 seconds, 2 thirds.  Win % 71.1, Place % 97.8.
Citation won 10 races later classified at grade 1 including the 3YO triple crown and New York's prestigious Jockey Club Gold Cup over 2 miles as a 3YO.  He was first horse to win USD 1,000,000.         
         
Nashua (USA) 1952      USD 1,288,565   30 starts: 22 wins (12 x G1L), 4 seconds, 1 third.  Win % 73.3, Place % 90.0.
Nashua won 12 races later classified as grade 1.  Only beaten by champion Swaps in the Kentucky Derby he got revenge in a match race winning by 6.5 lengths.  Won New York's prestigious Jockey Club Gold Cup over 2 miles twice with the second win in American record time.  Retired as world's leading money winner.         
         
Round Table (USA) 1954      USD 1,749,744   66 starts: 43 wins (9 x G1L (6 x dirt, 3 x grass)), 8 seconds, 5 thirds.  Win % 65.2, Place % 84.8.
Round Table was as tough as nails winning 43 of 66 starts in just 4 years and a champion on both dirt and grass, a rare feat. Retired as world's leading money winner.         
         
Buckpasser (USA) 1963      USD 1,462,014   31 starts: 25 wins (12 x G1L), 4 seconds, 1 third. Win % 80.6, Place % 96.8.
Buckpasser raced from age 2 to 4.  As a 4YO Buckpasser competed for headlines with the star 3YO's Damascus and Dr Fager considered two of the all  time greats. Buckpasser and Damascus both won New York's prestigious Woodward Stakes and Jockey Club Gold Cup as 3YOs. Despite Damascus beating Buckpasser by 10 lengths in the 1967 Woodward Stakes (Dr Fager 3rd) in a race sometimes described as the race of the century I have given the nod to Buckpasser as he won more 3YO+ races later classified as grade 1 (5 versus 3 each to the others) and had a superior big race record with 12 wins that were later classified as grade 1.          
         
Secretariat (USA) 1970      USD 1,316,808   21 starts: 16 wins (7 x G1), 3 seconds, 1 third.  Win % 76.2, Place % 95.2.
Just for the incredible 1973 Belmont Stakes vision on youtube for those that never watched him race.          
         
Affirmed (USA) 1975      USD 2,393,818   29 starts: 22 wins (14 x G1), 5 seconds, 1 thirds.  Win % 75.9, Place % 96.6.
Affirmed raced from 2 - 4 years winning grade 1 races each year including the 3YO triple crown.  Alydar, his great rival at 2 and 3 years, beat him in three occasions but ran second to him on six occasions including the triple crown races.  They never met at 4 when Alydar's best was a grade 3 win. Retired as world's leading money winner.           
         
Spectacular Bid (USA) 1976      USD 2,781,608   30 starts: 26 wins (13 x G1), 2 seconds, 1 third.  Win % 86.7, Place % 96.7.
A middle distance flying machine.  Won his final race the grade 1 Woodward Stakes in a walkover and I can't imagine that will happen again. Retired as world's leading money winner.         
         
         
*The first two of the modern grade 1 races for 4YO+ horses did not commence until 1884 and Miss Woodford did not compete in either of them which is the reason she did not win a race later classified as grade 1 after her three year old year.           
The Suburban Handicap (then run at Sheepshead Bay, NY, later Belmont Park, NY) and the Monmouth Hcp  (run at Monmouth Park, Oceanport, New Jersey, not run 1894-1945; later named Amory L. Haskell Hcp from 1967 then Philip H. Iselin Stakes) were the first modern grade 1 races for older horses when they commenced in 1884.           
I note that the Monmouth Hcp is recognised as the forerunner of the modern grade 1 race when the Monmouth Park track was re-opened on a new site some 50 years after the original track closed.           
         
Some notable omissions:         
Seabiscuit (USA) 1933         
Interestingly Seabiscuit fell out of favour with the editors of Daily Racing Form in the 1970's (see various editions of the American Racing Manual) and was deleted from their list of 'greats' for a number of years.         
Tom Fool (USA) 1949         
Native Dancer (USA) 1950         
Swaps (USA) 1952         
Bold Ruler (USA) 1954         
Kelso (USA) 1957         
Damascus (USA) 1964         
Dr Fager (USA) 1964         
Forego (USA) 1970         
John Henry (USA) 1975         
Cigar (USA) 1990         
Curlin (USA) 2004         

Offline pwa54

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« 2021-Jan-13, 08:19 AM Reply #562 »
It’s interesting that all the top 10 raced before the 1980s and that 3 were from the 70s. The absence of mares is also very noticeable.

Offline timw

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« 2021-Jan-17, 08:26 AM Reply #563 »
Having completed by North American top 10 I am now mulling over whether Enable should be in my European Top 10.  I have decided that the two spots up for grabs are Goldikova and Frankel.  Now before some of us start guffawing wildly I would like to point out the are many who think Secretariat is the greatest in any era and others who might not have him in their top 10. This is not the USA so keep your weapons out of sight.

Cheers

Offline timw

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« 2021-May-22, 10:15 AM Reply #564 »
I stumbled on a book review of 'TWENTY GREAT HORSES' By Roger Mortimer racing writer for the London 'Sunday Times'.

According to the reviewer Mr Mortimer's 20 greats are selected from the beginning of the 20th century ending I presume close to publication in 1967 and a Sceptre, Pretty Polly, Signorlnetta, Bayardo, Swynford, The Tetrarch, Hurry On, Mumatz Mahal, Brown Jack, Fairway, Hyperion, Quasred, Bahram, Rockfel, Blue Peter, Sun Chariot. Tudor Minstrel, Alycidon, Meld and Alcide.

Ribot is a notable omission and was covered separately by the reviewer at a later date after a reader wrote to the reviewer about Ribot's omission.

I have not coIlected any information about a number of these so I don't know anything about them.  Tulyar and esp Petite Etoile seem to be my notable omissions. 

Cheers

Offline timw

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« 2021-May-26, 05:57 PM Reply #565 »
Amazon have the following book for pre order -

Immortals of Australian Horse Racing: Track enthusiasts endlessly debate who are the best racehorses across different eras.  by Alan Whiticker (Author) - Hardcover – due out 15 September 2021

Seems he has written books on Rugby League if it is the same person.  I wonder if Phar Lap gets a mention.

Cheers


Offline fours

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« 2021-May-26, 06:26 PM Reply #566 »
Nup,

Died a long time ago.

Fours

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2021-May-26, 09:27 PM Reply #567 »


..................... just incredible that the top-ten are not self evident

Offline timw

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« 2021-Jun-06, 10:03 AM Reply #568 »
I noted above that Amazon have the following book for pre order - Immortals of Australian Horse Racing: Track enthusiasts endlessly debate who are the best racehorses across different eras.  by Alan Whiticker (Author) - Hardcover – due out 15 September 2021.  As no one has replied that the author is a racing journo working for the Hawkesbury Hoofbeat or somesuch perodical it occurred to me that perhaps a friend of racehorse talk might know who the author is.  I wonder whether Jorrocks will make the list of immortals.

Cheers

Offline pwa54

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« 2021-Jun-06, 07:46 PM Reply #569 »
Tim, his author bio states that Alan Whiticker is a "lifelong racing fan". His other books are about true crime and several League books.

Warwick Hobson's Racing's All-Time Greats covered a similar topic to Whiticker's forthcoming title. Hobson's book is a classic although it must be more than 25 years old now. It'll be interesting to see if the new book goes by categories such as best 2yo, best sprinter etc as Hobson does.


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